A Trial of the Romish Clergys Title to the Church, Text and commentary · Quoted chapter 13
A. D.
CHAP. XIII. How we ſhould diſcerne and know which is the true viſible Church of Chriſt.
A. W.
It may perhaps ſeeme needleſſe that I ſhould proceed any further in the confutation of this treatiſe, becauſe ſtill the maine point, that there is ſuch a Church, is preſuppoſed, and not proued. But howſoeuer it be true, that there is indeed no one viſible church of Chriſt, which may challenge or beare the name of the whole church; yet it will be worth the doing, to finde out the markes or ſignes, by which we may diſcerne which congregation is a true church of Chriſt, and which is not. Let vsus therefore proceede in examining this diſcourſe.
A. D. §. 1.
Hitherto I hauehave ſhewed that the rule of faith (which all men ought to ſeeke, that by it they may learne true faith) is the doctrine of the Church of Chriſt: and that this Church doth continue, and is alwayes viſible, that is to ſay, ſuch as may be found out and knowne. Now the greateſt question is (ſith there are diuers companies of them that beleeue in Chriſt; eueryevery one of which, challenge to themſelues the title of the true Church) how eueryevery man may come to know aſſuredly, and in particular, which companie is indeed the true viſible Church of Chriſt, whoſe doctrine we muſt in all points beleeue and follow.
To this queſtion I anſwer, that eueryevery companie which hath the name of Chriſtians, or which challenge to themſelues the name of the Church, are not alwayes the true Church. For of heretickes we may well ſay, as S. Auſtin doth: Non quia Eccleſiae Chriſti videntur habere nomen, idcirco pertinent ad eius conſecrationem: They doe not therefore pertaine to the conſecration of the Church of Chriſt, becauſe they ſeeme to carry the name of the Church of Christ. For (as the ſame S. Auſtin ſaith in another Lib. contr. epiſt. Parm. cap. 7.place) heretickes are onelyonly whited ouer with the name of Chriſtians; when indeed Si haeretici ſunt (as Tertullian ſayth) Chriſtiani eſſe non poſſunt: If they be heretickes, the cannot be true Christians. Lib. de praeſcrip.The reaſon whereof, the ſame Tertullian inſinuateth to be, becauſe they follow not that faith which came from Chriſt (to his Apoſtles and Diſciples, and which was deliuered by them, from hand to hand to our forefathers, and ſo to vsus) but they follow that faith which they choſe to themſelues: of which election or choiſe, the name of hereticke and hereſie did ariſe.
A. W.
Hitherto you hauehave laboured to proue the maior of your maine ſyllogiſme, propounded in your preface, namely that the faith, which the authoritie of the true Catholick Church commends vntounto vsus, is to be held for the true faith. What ſucceſſe you hauehave had in this proofe, let them ſay that hauehave compared your arguments and my anſwers together. Now you are to proceed to the proofe of your maine aſſumption, that they onelyonly are the true Church, which make profeſſion of the Romane faith. Your ſyllogiſme is thus framed.
They onelyonly are the true Church, to whom the certaine marks, by which the Church is to be knowne, belong.
But they that profeſſe the Romane faith, are they to whom thoſe markes belong.
Therefore they onelyonly that profeſſe the Romane faith, are the true Church.
The propoſition or maior of this Syllogiſme is not expreſt by you, but neceſſarily implied in this thirteenth Chapter: where you ſay, that the way to diſcerne which is the true Church, is firſt to ſet downe, which be the certain marks whereby all men may eaſily know the Church. The aſſumption or minor you endeuour to proue in the fiue Chapters following by a Syllogiſme thus concluded.
They onelyonly who are one, holy, Catholicke, Apoſtolicke Church, are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong.
But they that profeſſe the Romane religion, are they who are one, holy, Catholicke, Apoſtolicke Church.
Therefore, they onelyonly that profeſſe the Romane faith, are they to whom the certaine markes of the true Church belong.
Your propoſition or maior is in the two next Chapters; your aſſumption or minor in the ſixteenth. In handling the propoſition, firſt you labour to diſproue the markes of a true church, which we aſſigne: and that in Chapt. 14. then you aſſay to propound and confirme other of your owne; as we ſhall ſee hereafter, if God will, when we come to Chap. 15.
Whereas you expound what you meane by a viſible Church, viz. ſuch a one as may be found out and knowne: you ſtraighten the queſtion, and auow that which no man denieth. For the queſtion betwixt vsus, is not whether the Church may be found out or no, but whether it be ſo viſible and famous a congregation, that it may at all times be knowne of all men. If this be not that you ſhould proue, what will become of your grand reaſon, that therefore qCha. 5. & 12there muſt alwayes be a knowne Church, the doctrine whereof eueryevery must rest vponupon in all matters of faith, becauſe otherwiſe it cannot be vniuerſally true, that God will hauehave all men to be ſaued?
It is indeed a matter worth the enquiring, which companies of them that profeſſe Chriſtian Religion, are the true Churches of Chriſt. For that all are not, it is apparent by your Antichriſtian Synagogue: and that all true Chriſtians are bound (as much as lieth in them) to become members of ſome true church of Chriſt, it is manifeſt, becauſe elſe they cannot ordinarily performe the duties of his true outward worſhip, which are no where done but in his true churches.
If the choiſe of any doctrine not receiued from Chriſt, be ſufficient to make men heretickes, and churches hereticall; what may the world thinke of your ſynagogue, which is not aſhamed openly to profeſſe, that ſhe holdeth many points of doctrine, which hauehave not proofe out of the written word of God? For whereas to ſhift off the matter, you come in with deliuerie of I know not what, from hand to hand by the Apoſtles and your forefathers: who ſees not that this conceit of yours both condemneth the Scriptures of inſufficiencie, and maketh the reports of men the rule of the true faith, and openeth a wide gate to let in all deuices of mans corruption? What auailes it, to know, that all doctrine is hereſie, which comes not from our Sauiour Chriſt, if we muſt beleeue that all came from him, which your Pope and his Councell tell vsus, they hauehave receiued by tradition? why ſhould we not rather hearken to rOccham in opere 90. dierūyour Occham, who truly affirmed that hereſy is an opinion choſen by a man, contrary to the holy Scripture? Surely there is great cauſe to ſuſpect them of hereſie, who refuſe to make triall of their doctrine by Scripture, whatſoeuer they talke of tradition from the Apoſtles by their forefathers.
A. D. §. 2.
The way therefore to diſcerne which is the true Church, is irſt to ſet downe, which be the certaine markes, by which all men may eaſily know the Church: and then to examine to whom theſe markes doe agree. The which, that I may the better performe in the Chapter following, here I thinke good, firſt briefly to note what belongeth to the nature of a good and ſufficient marke.
Note therefore that two things are required in eueryevery ſufficient marke. The firſt is, that it be not common to many, but proper, and onelyonly agreeing to the thing, whereof it is a marke. As for example, it is no good marke whereby to know any particular man, to ſay he hath two hands or two eares, becauſe this is common to many, and therefore no ſufficient note or marke whereby one may be diſtinguiſhed or knowne from all other. But a marke, whereby we may diſcerne one ſpeciall man from all other, muſt be ſome one thing, or moe, which hee hath, and others hauehave not. As if hee were longer, larger, or fairer then the reſt; or if ſome others were Taller, bigger Tall. Faire.as long, and other ſome as faire, yet none were long, and faire both, but onelyonly he. The ſecond thing, required in a good marke, is, that it be more apparent, and eaſie to be knowen, then the thing. For example, If I were to deſcribe and make knowen a certaine man, who were otherwiſe vnknowen. I muſt not thinke it ſufficient to giuegive the definition of his eſſence, or to aſſigne the ſecret diſpoſition of his heart, liuer, and other inward parts, which are commonly harder to be knowen, then the man himſelfe. But I must declare ſome apparent thing in his face, hands, or ſome outward part of his bodie: or in his voice, apparell, behauiour, or ſuch like; which agreeing onelyonly to that man; and being eaſie to be knowen, may be a meanes to make vsus know the man we ſeeke for.
A. W.
He that profeſſeth to ſet downe certaine markes, whereby all men may eaſily know the true Church, that is, which Church indeed holdeth the true religion of Ieſus Chriſt: vndertaketh that, which he will neuer be able to performe. For it is a matter not eaſily to be diſcerned by naturall men, no though we ſhould admit thoſe for ſufficient markes of it, which are falſely propounded by you, to that purpoſe.
ſBellar. de Eccleſ. mil. lib. 4. cap. 5.Bellarmine, from whom you tooke this, as (in a manner) all the reſt of your Treatiſe, aſſignes three properties of your markes: thoſe two, that you name, and a third, that they muſt be inſeparable from the true Church. Now ſuch plaine men, as we are, hauehave conceiued by the firſt and laſt properties, that no marke is to be taken for a note of the true Church, but that, which cannot be common to it, with any other Church, But you hauing learned of tGregor. de Valent. Analy. fid. lib. 6. cap. 7.Gregorie de Valentia, or diſcerned your ſelfe, that the foure marks you giuegive, are not ſuch, if we conſider them ſeuerally; tell vsus here afore hand, that we muſt take them altogether, or elſe we marre all. So that, whereas afterward you ſeeme to make a ſhew of teaching vsus uChap. 15.foure certaine markes, to know the true Church by, when all commeth to all, we hauehave but one marke made of thoſe foure botched vp together.
But let vsus take a view of theſe two things, that you require, in euerie ſufficient marke; the former whereof is, that it be proper to the thing, of which it is a marke.
This, you ſay is true, but not ſufficient: For ſome marke may caſually be proper to a thing at this time, which an other time may neither be proper to it, nor belōg to it at all. Witneſſe your long and faire man, who may loſe his legs, and his beautie, or be ouergrowen by ſome other, and ſo can by no meanes be knowen, for the longeſt and faireſt. Perſecution was ſometimes a marke, whereby the true Church might be diſcerned: for it was proper to it; no men but Chriſtians being killed or puniſhed for religion. Yet I thinke no man would giuegive this for a marke to know the true Church by. Once xBellar. de notis Eccleſ. lib 4. cap. 18.your Cardinall Bellarmine, is ſo farre from it, that he maketh the outward proſperitie of the Church, one of his fifteene notes, yLib. 4. cap. 3.whereby he would hauehave the true Church diſcerned. Therefore euerie ſufficient marke of the Church muſt be ſuch, as is alwaies to be had in the Church, not now preſent, an other time abſent. Generally, to make a marke truly proper to a thing, it is required: firſt that it alwaies agree to the thing: Secondly, that it neuer agree to any other thing whatſoeuer.
This ſecond property of a marke, that it muſt be more apparent, and eaſier to be knowen then the thing, I acknowledge to be true: ſo you tie not this alwaies to outward ſenſe, whereof you bring example. For that greater apperancie to ſenſe, is there onelyonly required, where the thing we ſeeke for, is to be iudged by ſenſe: but it is not requiſite, that in matters which we can not know by any outward token, the marke, whereby they are to be knowen, ſhould be outwardly more apparent: it is ſufficient, if by ſearch, and diſcourſe it may more eaſily be diſcerned.
A. D. §. 3.
Wherefore, when we will aſſigne ſome good markes, by which, all ſorts of men may, in ſome ſort, diſcerne, which particular companie of men is the true Church, we muſt hauehave ſpeciall regard to aſſigne thoſe things, which in ſome matters may be apparent to all ſorts of men; ſith all ſorts of men had need to ſeeke out, and according to their capacitie diſcerne which is the true Church: we muſt alſo aſſigne thoſe things, which agree to no other companie, but that which is the true Church; to the intent that when a man ſhall ſee all thoſe things, which be aſſigned as marks, to agree to any companie, he may ſtraightwaies conclude, that companie to be the true Church: as on the contrarie ſide, if he perceiue, either all, or any one of them to be wanting, in any company, he may be ſure, that, that companie is not the true Church.
A. W.
In the former part of this chapter, you told vsus, that the way to diſcerne, which is the true Church, was to ſet downe, which be the certaine markes, by which all men may eaſily know the Church. Here in the concluſion, you mince the matter, I know not how, that All ſorts of men may in ſome ſort diſcerne, and in ſome matters, may be apparent to all ſorts of men. If it be enough to diſcerne in ſome ſort, that is, to giuegive a blind geſſe, which is the true Church, what ſhould certaine marks need: or why may not ſome common ſignes ſerue the turne? Neither will it fit your purpoſe, that the notes be ſuch, as that all ſorts of men may by them diſcerne the Church: but they muſt be ſo apparent, by your doctrine, that euerie man of euerie ſort may eaſily, and as it were, with playing, be able to iudge which is the true Church. Your laſt clauſe, that the markes in ſome matters, muſt be apparent to all ſorts of men (that I may freely profeſſe my dulneſſe) paſſeth my vnderſtanding. What is the meaning of theſe words, in ſome matters? If they ſignifie no more, but in ſome ſort: it had bene good, you had ſpoken plaine, and not vexed your Readers with a needleſſe labour of geſſing at your meaning. Eſpecially ſince (for all your faire promiſe of I wote not what eaſineſſe in diſcerning, which is the true Church) all men may ſee, they muſt be driuen to beſtow much time and paines, in examining the markes, you will ſet downe: becauſe they are ſuch as do not ſingly euerie one by it ſelfe, ſhew which is the true Church, but muſt all be ioyned together to breede this knowledge: