Defense of Perkins Book Called a Reformed Catholic, Front matter · Reformation of prologue
speaker A. W. TO THE REFORMATION OF THE PROLOGVE.
IF it fall out, as I make no question but it will doe, that the place chosen by Master Perkins, be prooued to belong to the Church of Rome; where is the fault then?
speaker W. P. IN the former chapter S. Iohn sets downe a description ….of the whore of Babylon, and that at large, as he saw her in a vision described vntounto him. In the sixteenth verse of the same chapter, he foretels her destruction: and in the three first verses of this 18. chapter, he goeth on to propound the sayd destruction, yet more directly and plainely, withall alleadging arguments to prooue the same, in all the verses following. Now in this fourth verse is set downe a caueat seruing to forewarne all the people of God, that they may escape the iudgement shall befall the whore: and the wordes containe two parts: a commaundement, and a reason. The commaundement: Come out of her my people, that is, from Babylon. The reason taken from the euent, least ye be partakers, &c. Touching the commaundement, first I will search the right meaning of it, and then set down the vse thereof and doctrine flowing thence. In historie therefore are three Babylons mentioned: one is, Babylon of Assyria standing on the riuer Euphrates, where was the confusion of Languages, and where the Iewes were in captinitie: which Babylon is in Scripture reproched for Idolatrie and other iniquities. The second Babilon is in Egypt, standing on the riuer Nilus, and is now called Cayr; of that mention is made, 1. Pet. 5. v. 13. (as some thinke) though indeede it is as likely and more commonly thought, that there is meant Babylon of Assyria. The third Babylon is mystical, whereof Babylon of Assyria was a tipe and figure; and that is Rome, which is without question here to be vnderstood. And the whore of Babylon, as by all circumstances may be gathered, is the state or regiment of a people that are the inhabitants of Rome, and appertaine thereto. This may be prooued by the interpretation of the holy Ghost: for in the last verse of the 17. chapter, the woman, that is, the whore of Babylon, is said to be a citie which raigneth ouer the kings of the B.earth: now in the daies when S. Iohn penned this booke of Reuelation, there was no citie in the world that ruled ouer the kings of the earth but Rome; it then being the seate where the Emperour put in execution his Imperiall authoritie. Againe in the seuenth verse shee is said to sit on a beast hauing seuen C.heads and tenne hornes, which seuen heads bee seuen hils, vers. 9. whereon the woman sitteth, and also they bee seuen kings. Therefore by the whore of Babylon is meant a citie standing on seuen hills. Now it is wel known, not onelyonly to learned men in the Church of God, but euen to the heathen themselues, that Rome alone is the citie built on seuen distinct hills, called Caelius, Auentinus, Exquilinus, Tarpeius or Capitolinus, Viminalis, Palatinus, Quirinalis. Papists to helpe themselues, doe alleadge that old Rome stood on seuen hills, but now is remooued further to the plaine of Campus Martins. I answer, that howsoeuer the greatest part of the citie in regard of habitation bee not now on seuen hils, yet in regard of regiment and practise of religion it is: for euen to this day vponupon these hilles are seated certaine Churches and Monasteries and other like places where the Papall Authoritie is put in execution: and thus Rome being put for a state and regiment, euen at this day, it stands vponupon 7. hils. And though it be come to passe that the harlot in regard of her latter dayes euē changed her seate, yet in respect of her younger times in which she was bred and borne, she sate vponupon the 7. hills. Others, because they feare the wounding of their own heads, labour to frame these words to another meaning, & say, that by the whore, is meant the company of all wicked men in the world whersoeuer, the diuell being the head thereof. But this exposition is flat against the text: for she is opposed to the Chap. 18. ….kings of the earth with whom she is said to commit fornication: and in the last verse she is called a citie standing on seuen hils, and raigning ouer the Kings of the earth (as I hauehave said) and therefore must needs be a state of men in some particular place.
speaker D. B. P. For by the purple Harlot in that place is signified (as shall be proued presentlie,) the Romane Empire, as then it was, the slaue of Idols, and with most bloodie slaughter persecuting Christs Saints: Those of the Church of Rome being as nearest vntounto it, so most subiect to that sacrilegious boucherie. Wherefore that voice which S. Iohn heard say, Goe out of her my people, that you be not partakers of her sinnes, &c. can hauehave none other meaning; then that all they who desire to be Gods people, must separate themselues in faith and manners from them, who hate and persecute the Romane Church, as did then, the Heathen Emperours, and now doe all Heretikes: Vnlesse they will be partakers of their sinnes, and consequentlie of their plagues. This shall yet appeare more plainelie in Your friendly offer is suspicious. foreign. S…phoc. in Aia… slagel.the examination of this Chapter. Where I will deale friendly with my aduersarie, and aduantage him all tha… I can; that all being giuen him, which is any way probable; it may appeare more euidentlie, how little he hath to any purpose out of this place of the Apocalypse, whereof all Protestants vaunt and bragge so much both in their bookes and pulpits. Well then I will admitte that in the 17. and 18. Chapters of the Reuel by the whoore of Babylon, is vnderstood the Romane state and regiment: which in lawfull disputations, they are not able to proue: the most iudicious Doctor S. Augustine, and diuerse others of the auncient Popish you meane.Fathers, with the learned troupe of later Interpreters, expounding it of the whole corps and societie of the wicked: And as for the 7. h…ll…s on the which they lay their foundation, they are not to be taken literallie: The Angell of God in the verie text it selfe interpreting the 7. heads of the beast, to be aswell 7. Kings, as 7. hilles: But this notwithstanding to helpe you forvvaid, I vvill graunt it you, because some good vvriters hauehave so taken it. And therefore omitte as imperrinent that vvhichwhich you say in proofe of it. What can you inferre hereupon? Many that the Romane Church is that vvhoore of Babylon: fayre and soft good Sir, hovv proue you that? thus. The vvhoore of Babylon is a state of the Romane regment, ergo the Romane Church is the vvhoore of Babylon. What some of arguing call you me this? By the like sophistication, you may proue that Rom…s and R…s vvere the purple Harlot, vvhichwhich to affinne ….vvere ridiculous, or vvhichwhich is impious) that the most Christian Empe, …. …, and …codosius, vvere the vvh…ore of Babilon, because thes. held also the state of the Romane Empire and regiment, to make short the seeble force of this reason lyeth in this: that they vvho ho…eth the state, and gouerne in the same Kingdome, must needs be of like affection in Religion; vvhichwhich if it vvere necessarie, then did Queene Mary of blessed memorie, and her sister E…zabeth …… … same nundes tovvards the true Catholike …ath, because they … in the same chane of estate, and ruled in the same Kingdome. See I pray you vvhat a shamefull cau… this is, to rase such … …. A simple Logician vvould blush to argue in the par…s so loose and yet they that take vponupon them to controule the learnedst in the vvorld, often fall into such open tallacies.
We desire no fauour of you, but that you would acknowledge the truth, when you cannot reasonably gainsay it. What we can prooue you shall see by and by; in the meane while, your reason is naught. For what though S. Austin, and diuers other ancient writers, with the learned troupe of your Popish interpreters doe so expound it; doth it follow thereupon, that in lawfull disputation the contrarie cannot be proued? Could not they erre? May not some other man see that, which they perceiued not? But what if wee shall match you in number and antiquitie of writers for our exposition? First pHieron an …Hierome, as you acknowledge afterward, makes for vsus, and not for you: so by your confession doth qTertul. contra lud…o… pag 131. & contra Mar…ion. lib 3. pag. 204.Tertullian: but what name I seuerall men? The rA…etas in Apoc cap. 17.Greeke Scholiast tels vsus, that diuers Interpreters by the harlot vnderstood old Rome; and he that so thinks, in his iudgement erres not, though (saith he) it may be vnderstood of new Rome, or the time of Antichrists comming. Yea sAugust de ci… lib 18. cap. 2. …2. 27. … lib. … c. 17.Austin himselfe grants, that Rome, in Greeke and Latin writers, is as it were a second Babylon, and he calles it Babylon of the West. More then that, your tBaptista Regnault in … ber…, &. R…be…a in epistola ad lector.owne writers deny those Ho milies on the Apocalyps to be Au…tins, and think them rather to be written by Ty conius the Donatist, which Ribera the Iesuite saies uCertis argumentis deprehendi, eas Tyconij esse, non Augustini.he hath found, by certaine arguments and euident reasons. Besides, *Babtist. Regnaul. vbi supra.Baptista Regnald affirmes, that the Commenta…ies of diners of the ancients, Bede, Ambrose, Aus…ert, Anselme, Prunasius and Austin are mysticall and allegoricall, not historicall; so that wee are not to rest vponupon any of them, for the true and proper meaning of the text.
It shewes more discretion than plaine dealing, to omit that which you cannot answere; Master Perkins reasons are euident and strong.
xSee Doctor Dovvnam of Antichrist, lib. 1. cap. 2. ss 3. & Master Povvel de Antichristo lib. 1. cap. 11. ss 22. 23.The citie that in S. Iohns daies raigned ouer the Kings of the earth, is the whore of Babylon, Apoc. 17. 18.
But Rome that is (yCiuitas, the state of Rome. ciuitas) the state of Rome, and Rome onelyonly, is that citie that raigned ouer the Kings of the earth in S. Iohns daies.
Therefore Rome, and Rome onelyonly is the whore of Babylon.
2 The citie that in S. Iohns daies was seated on seuen hilles, is the seate of the whore of Babylon. Apoc. 17. 9.
But Rome, that is (zVibs, the tovvn of Rome. vrbs) the towne of Rome (is that only) is the citie, that in S. Iohns daies was seated on seuen hilles.
Therefore Rome (and Rome onelyonly) is the seate of the whore of Babylon.
To the proposition of the latter reason you answere, that aSee Doctor Fulk against Rhem. Testam. Reuel. 17. 9. and Dovvn. of Ant…c lib. 1. …. 2 ss 4. and R…em. Test. Reuel. 17. 9.the seuen hilles are not to be taken literally: because the Angell makes the seuen heads aswell seuen Kings, as seuen hilles. But surely that rather makes against you: for as the seuen Kings are literally to be vnderstood, so are the seuen hilles, both being signified by the seuen heads; not that the seuen hils are seuen Kings. For the woman, or Citie, doth not sit vponupon the Kings, but rather the Kings vponupon her. Besides, it were a strange interpretation, to expound heads by hilles, and hils by Kings; whereas heads doe more resemble Kings, than hilles doe.
speaker W. P. And the Papists themselues perceiuing that this shift will not serue their turne, make two Romes, heathenish Rome, and that whereof the Pope is head: now (say they) the whore spoken of, is heathenish Rome, which was ruled by cruell tyrants, as Nero, Domitian, and the rest: and that Rome wherof now the Pope is head, is not here meant. Behold a vaine and foolish distinction: for Ecclesiasticall Rome in respect of state, princely dominion, and cruelty in persecuting the Saints of God, is all one with the heathenish Empire: the See of the Bishop being turned into the Emperours court, as all histories doe manifest.
speaker D. B. P. Well, then admitting the purpel harlot to signifie the Roman state, wee doe say that the state of Rome must bee taken as it was then, when these words were spoken of it; that is, Pagan, Idolatrous, and a hot persecutor of Christians. Such it had beene a little before vnderunder that bloodie Tyrant Nero, and then was vnderunder Domitian: which we confirme by the authoritie of them, who expound this passage of the Roman state. The commentary on the Apocalyps, vnderunder Saint Ambrose name sayth the great where sometime doth signifie Rome, specially vvhichwhich at that time vvhen the Apostle vvrote this, did persecute the Church of God: but othervvise, In cap. 178. Jt should be in cap. 17. Libr. 2. contra Iouinian.doth signifie the whole Citie of the Diuell. And Saint Ierome who applieth the place to Rome affirmeth, that she had before his dayes blotted out that blasphemie vvritten in her forhead, because then the state was Christian, which before had beene Heathen: so that vntounto the partie Pagan, and not vntounto the Church of God, he ascribeth these works of the wicked Harlot: which also the very text it selfe doth conuince: for it hath That she vvas drunke vvith the blood of the Mart…rs of Iesus. Now Vers. 6.the Church of Rome hath not then by the confession of all men drawne any blood of Christs Saints, but in testimonie of his trueth, had powred out abundance of her best blood. Wherefore it is most manifest, that the harlot could not signifie the Church of Rome, so pure and free from slaughter: but the Romane Empire, vvhichwhich vvas then full gorged, vvith that most innocent and holy blood. Againe that vvhoore is expounded, B.To be a Citie vvhichwhich had kingdome, ouer the Kings of the earth. But the Church of Rome, had then no kingdome ouer the earth, or Vers. 18.any temporall dominion at all; but the Romane Emperours had such soueraigne commaundement ouer many Kings▪ vvherefore it must be vnderstood of them, and not of the Church. Novv to take Kingdome not properly for temporall soueraignty, but for spirituall I…isdiction, as some shifters doe; is to she vvithout any vvarrant, from the natiue signification of the vvord, vntounto phantasticall, and voluntarie imagination. And vvhereas M. Perkins saith, that Ecclesiasticall Rome in respect of state, princely dominion, and cruelty against the Saints, is Pag. 5. Spoke of Rome then, as it is now.all one vvith the heath…sh Empire; he both seeketh to deceiue, and is greatly deceiued: he vvould deceiue, in that he doth applie vvords spoken of Rome, aboue 1500. yeares agoe, vntounto Rome as it is at this day: and yet if that were granted him, he erreth fo…e in eueryevery one of his particulars. For first, touching princ…e dominion, the Romane Empire held then, all Italy, all Fraunce, all Spayne, all England, a great part of Germanie, of Asia, and also of Afrike: hauing their Proconsulles, and The Popes Legates hauehave by one meanes or other equalled the Proconsuls authoritie, and the reuenues of the Romane state. Indeede the church of Rome is no persecuter of heretikes but of true Christians.other principall Officers in all those Countries, drawing an hundred thousand millions in mony, and many other commodities out of them: Wherefore in princely dominion, and magnificall state, it surmounted Ecclesiasticall Rome (which hath not temporall dominion ouer the one halfe of that one kingdome of Italy) more then an hundred degrees. And as for persecution, the Empire slew, and caused to be slaine, more Saints of God in one yeare; then the Church of Rome hath done, of reprobates and obstinate heretikes, in 1600. yeares.
Hauing thus proued, that the whoore of Babilon, signifieth the heathen state of Rome, and not the Ecclesiasticall: let vsus now heare what you say against it. Marry that the distinction of the Empire of Rome, and Church of Rome is foolish, and coyned of late to serue our turne▪ which to be farre otherwise, I proue out of those verie Authors, who doe interpret that harlot to signifie Rome; who are neither foolish, nor of late daies: you hauehave heard it before out of S. Ambrose commentaries. And farther, we gather it out of S. Hierome, in the Epistle which you Before it was vnderunder his name; hauehave you learned since, that it was his in deede? VVhat if there be?cite: for he hauing resembled Rome vntounto Babilon, for the multitude of the wicked, which yet remained in it: pointeth out a more pure part, saying; There is in deede the holy Church, there are the triumphant monuments of the Apostles and Martyrs, there is the true confession of Christ, there is the faith praised by the Apostle, &c. Be not there expressed two distinct parts of Rome? Againe, Tertullian who liued in the second hundred yeare, vnderunder those persecuting Emperours, saith in one place, that Babilon is a figure of Rome, in respect of her proud Empire and persecution of the Saints. And in an other, that Rome was most happie for her holy Lib. cont. Iud. De prasc…pt cap. 16.Church, vntounto vvhichwhich the Apostles vvith their blood had poured forth their vvhole doctrine: see a plaine distinction betweene the Heathen Empire and the holie Church of Rome. Which finallie may be gathered out of the expresse word of God. VVhere the Church in Babilon coelect, is distinguished from the rest of that citie, which was Pagan. You say 1. Pet. 5….(but without any authour) that Babilon there doth not signifie Rome, but either a citie in Aegypt, or Assyria: But Eusebins lib. 2. hist. c. 14. and S. Jerom. de Eccles. script. vers. Marcus, with other Authors more worthie He saith no more but that vvhichwhich is as likely, and more commonly Thought. Eusebius onelyonly recites it out of Papias.of credit, doe expound it of Rome. And you your selues take Babilon so. Rome, where you thinke that any hold may be taken against it, as in the 17. of the Reuel. but in S. Peters Epistle they will none of it, because it would proue too plainely, that S. Peter had been at Rome.
speaker A. W. Master Perkins hauing prooued that by Babylon Rome is signified, proceedes to answere two obiections: First, bSee Fulke Rhem. Testam. Reuel. 17. and Dovvnam of Antichrist. lib. 1. cap. 2. § 2.that the citie of Rome stands not now vponupon seuen hils. But it did in S. Iohns daies, as his reason lies; and at this day popish Churches, or Monasteries, are situated vponupon them, vnderunder the Popes authoritie. Secondly, that by the whore the companie of the wicked vnderunder their head the diuell is vnderstood. cReuel. 18. 2. & 17. 18.But this the text will not beare; the whore being opposed to the Kings of the earth, and ruling ouer them: vponupon this foundation Master Perkins thus builds his reason.
Either Rome Heathenish, or Rome Christian, is the whore of Babylon:
But Rome Heathenish is not:
Therefore Rome Christian is.
This is plainly his reason, and not that which you gather. The proposition is euident, because the state of Rome was neuer but either Heathenish, or Christian. The assumption Master Perkins proues. But I must be faine to leaue his course, and to follow this reformers steps.
The state of Rome must be taken, as it is the dSee Fulke, Dovvnam, Abbot, Povvel.seate of Antichrist: but it was not the seate of Antichrist in S. Iohns daies; for Antichrist, eBellarm. de Romano pon …if. lib. 3. cap. 2according to your doctrine, is not yet come. Againe, it was no mysterie, for heathenish Rome to be an Idolatrous and bloody persecutor of the Christians. Thirdly, the state that S. Iohn calles the harlot, continues till the finall destruction spoken of by him, and S. Paul: but the estate of heathenish Rome was decayed long since. Your proofe is insufficient, for you alleage but two of many, that make Rome Babylon: who, as they deserue commendation for discerning so much of the truth, so may they bee excused, if seeing Rome in their time a Christian famous Church, they did not take it to be the seate of Antichrist. But Hierome seemes rather to make against you, because euen then he calles it Babylon, in respect of Antichrist to come.
Your second and third reasons are of no more force. For S. Iohn, as I hauehave shewed, spake not of Rome as it was then, but as it was to be afterward, and now hath been almost one thousand yeeres euen in temporall authoritie, to which one of the Popes swords belongs. Master Perkins rightly applies to Rome the words, that fifteene hundred yeeres since were spoken of her, as she is now: the Popes Legates were nothing inferiour, either for authoritie, or exactions, to the Romane Proconsuls. But, as it was foretold in a mysterie, vnderunder a colour of spirituall gouernment, ouerruling both in Ecclesiasticall and Ciuill matters: he that remembers the bloodie massacre of so many thousands, in a few daies, not many yeeres agoe in France, shall see that the Church of Rome shed blood enough, at that one time, to make her drunke as long as she shal continue: & yet what a small part was it, of that, which from time to time she hath bezeled in?
This section is nothing to purpose. For who denies, that there were as well Christians as Heathen in Rome, in the Emperours daies? The distinction, Master Perkins denies, is, that S. Iohn speakes of Rome, as it was vnderunder the Emperours, and not of it, as it hath been, and is vnderunder the Popes; which the authors, you alleage, meddle not with.
speaker W. P. S. Iohn writ a prophecie, and therefore might well vse allegories: besides, he describes his Babylon so plaine, that fRhem. Test. Reuel. 17. Bellarm. de pon…. Roma. lib. 3. cap. 5. 13.your selues are forced to confesse, he meanes Rome by it. S. Peter deales as an Apostle, not as a Prophet; and no where giues any inckling, that by Babylon Rome should be meant. Eusebius sets it not downe as his owne opinion, but only recites it out of Papias; from whom also it is apparant that H…rome had it, and in whom (gEuseb. hist. lib. 3. cap. 36. Eusebius saith) there were many fabulous matters.
But let the distinction be as they suppose, yet by their leaues, hereby the whore must be vnderstood not onelyonly heathenish Rome, but euen the Papal or Ecclesiasticall Rome: for the holy Ghost saith plainly Chap. 17. 3.that she hath made all nations drunke with the wine of the wrath of her fornication: yea it is added that she hath committed fornication with the Kings of the earth, wherby is signified that she hath indeauoured to intangle all the nations of the earth in her spirituall idolatrie, and to bring the Kings of the earth to her religion. Which thing cannot be vnderstood of the heathenish Rome, for that left all the Kings of the earth to their owne religion and idolatrie: neither did they labour to bring forraine Kings to worshippe their Gods. Againe it is said, that the ten hornes, which be ten Chap. 18. 16.Kings shall hate the wh…re, and make her des…late and naked, which must not be vnderstood of heathenish Rome, but of Popish Rome: for whereas in former times all the Kings of the earth did submitte themselues to the whore, now they hauehave begun to withdraw themselues, and make her desolate; as the King of Bohemia, Denmarke, Germanie, England, Scotland, and other parts: therefore this distinction is also friuolous. They further alledge that the whore of Babylon is drunke with the blood of the Saints and Martyrs, shed not in Rome, but in Ierusalem, where the Lord was crucified: and the two Prophets Chap. 17. 6.being slaine lie there in the streets. But this place is not Reuel. 11. 18. Epist 17. E… & P… ad Marcell….meant of Hierusalem, as Hierome hath fully taught, but it may well be vnderstood of Rome: Christ was crucified there, either because the authority, whereby he was crucified was from the Romane Empire, or else because Christ in his members was and is there daily crucified, though locally in his owne person he was crucified at Ierusalem. And thus, notwithstanding all which hath bin said, wee must here by the whore vnderstand the state of the Empire of Rome, not so much vnderunder the heathen Emperors, as vnderunder the head thereof the Pope.
speaker D. B. P. Well, M. Perkins is content in fine, to allowe of that distinction, of Heathenish and Ecclesiasticall Rome, which before he esteemed …o foolish: And then will prooue that not the Heathenish, but Ecclesi…st…ca… … is resembled to the purpell Harlot. See what confidence this man hath Shew vsus whe…e if you can. Cap. 18. 3.in his owne shutle wit, that now will prooue this, and shortly after disproue it: but let vsus giuegive him the hearing. The holy Ghost sayth plainely, that she hath made all the vvorld drunke v…th the vvine of the vv…ath of her fornication, and yet addeth: that she hath committed fornication vvith the Kings of the earth: But this cannot be vnderstood of heathenish Rome, for that left all the Kingdomes of the earth vntounto their owne Religion and Idolatry: and did not labour to bring them, to worship the Roman Gods. Ergo, it must be vnderstood of Papall R…me. I answere. The Roman Empire being the head and principall promoter of all kinde of Idolatrie, and maintaining, and aduancing them, that most vehemently opposed themselues against the Christian Religion; who with any shew of reason can denie, but they chiefly cōmitted spirituall fornication with the Kings of the earth, if not by persvvading them to forsake their false Gods, vvhichwhich the Pagan Romans vvorship asvvell as they; yet by encouraging and commanding them to perseuere in that filthie Idolatrie, and to resist, and oppresse the Christians vvheresoeuer? Neither is that true that the Roman Emperours did not labour to bring other Nations to vvorship nevv Gods, vvhen Nero and Domitian would be worshipped Apol. ad Antonin. Euseb. lib. 4. hist cap. 8. It is applied to the Romane Church, vv…ch novv is a strumpet. Cap. 17. …. 1….as Gods, and for feare of Adrian, one Antinous his seruant, was worshipped as a God of all men: as Iustinus Martyr testifieth. These words of the text then, agree very well with the Emperours, who both were Idolaters, and the chiefe Patrons of Idolatry: but can in no sort be applied to the Romane Church, which was th…n (as the Protestants cannot deny) a pure Virgin, and most free from all spirituall fornication. But that it is now become Idolatrous, M. Perkins doth proue by his second reason, gathered also (I warrant you, right learnedly) out of the text it selfe, where it is said, that the ten Hornes, which signifie ten Kings, shall hate the whore, and make her desolate and naked: which (as he saith) must be vnderstood of Popish Rome: For whereas in former times, all the Kings of the earth did submitte themselues, to the whore: now they hauehave begunne to withdraw themselues, and to make her desolate: as the Kings of Bohemia, Denmarke, Germanie, England, Scotland, and other parts. In these his words is committed a most foule fault, by grosse ouersight and ignorance in the very text. What, be England, Scotland, Denmarke, (as for Bohemia ruled by a Catholike Emperour it must be omitted, as also many states of Germanie,) be these Kingdomes your principall pillers of the new Gospell, comprehended within the number of the ten, mentioned there in S. Iohn, which hate the harlot? Yes marie. Why then they are enemies of Christ, and Satans souldiers; for in the 13. verse it is said of these, that they shall deliuer their power vntounto the beast, (which signifieth either the Diuell or Antichrist,) and shall sight Such they were vvhen they gaue their povver to the beast.with the Lambe, and the Lambe shall ouercome them, because he is Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. Is not this doating in an high degree, to infame so notoriouslie them, of whom he would speake most honour? and to make the special Patrons of their new Gospel, the Diuels Captaines, and fiercely to wage battaile against Christ Iesus? See, how heate of wrangling blindeth mens iudgements. But you proceed and say that we further hold, that the blood of the Saints and Martyrs, was not shed in Rome, but in Ierusalem. Here is a confusion of Men, and matters; for Pag. 7.we say that the blood of many Saints, reheaised in the Apoc. was shed in Rome, by the tyrannicall Emperours, but the martyring of those tvvo Cap. 17.principall witnesses, Enoch and Elias, (recorded in the cleauenth of the same) shall be at Ierusalem, aswell, because the text is very plainc for it; specifying that their bodies shall lie in the streetes of that great Citie, Vers. 8.where their Lord was crucified; as for that the ordinarie interpreters of that place doe so take it. But M Perkins holdeth that the place where Christ was crucified, signifieth here not Ierusalem, but Rome; because Christ was crucified there in his members: so it might aswell signifie any other place of persecution as Rome. The reason therefore being naught worth, befort fiath it with the name of S. Ierome, but citeth in the margent a letter of two vertuous Matrons, Paula and Eustochium. Good Sir, if S. …reme had meant that that Epistle should hauehave had his Epist. 17. Epist. 17. This Epistle is brought by your selfe for Jero…e▪ ovvne in the treatise of Images.authoritie, he would hauehave set it out in his owne name, vvhichwhich seeing he thought not expedient, set the authoritie of it aside, and vige his reasons, i… you thinke it vvorth your labour, and you shall be ansvvered. In the meane season, (I hope) all sober Christians, vvill take the place vvhere our Sauiour Christ vvas nailed on the Crosse, to signifie rather Ierusalem, then Rome. And consequently, all that you hauehave alleadged out of Scripture, to proue the vvhore of Babylon to figure the Ecclesiasticall state of Rome, not to be vvorth a rush.
speaker A. W. To make the world drunke with the wine of the wrath of her fornication, is not to inforce men by file and sword, as the Roman Emperors did: but to allure them by poysoned doctrine, and counterfeite holines; which course hath been almost proper to the Church of Rome. The like signification hath the other speech of committing fornication with the Kings of the earth; which argueth a delight, whereby they were drawne, not a violence of inforcement: yea the idolatrie the Apostle speakes of, is not the grosse worshipping of salse gods by profest idolatrie, but, in a mysterie, the false worshipping of the true God.
Against his reason you except not, but charge him with doting in a high degree, for making the Kings of England, Scotland &c. Satans souldiers. And such in deed they were, hReuel. 17. 1…when they gaue their power to the beast, and as long as they continued the Popes seruants, but the Apostle shewes, that iReuel. 17. 1….at the last, after their drunkennes and fornication, the Lord hauing discouered their shame vntounto them; they should hate the whore &c. which they hauehave happily done; yea euen Bohemia, though a Popish Emperour, for this present gouerns it, and shall in Gods good time wholy consume her flesh with fire.
It is neither diuinity, nor reason to imagine, that Henoch, and Eltas, hauing been taken from the earth by God, to their reward; should come againe into the world, and be slaine by Antichrist. As vntrue is it, that, by that great city kReuel. 14. 8. & 16. 19. & 18. 10. 16. 18 19 21Ierusalem is meant, for that terme is neuer giuen to it, in all the Reuelation, but to Rome ordinarily, especially lReuel. chap. 17. & 18.chapters 17. 18. yea our Sauiour himselfe was not crucified mLeuit. 4. 24. Heb. 13. 11. 12.in Ierusalem, but without it. In the great city, that is in the Romane Empire, he was indeed crucified: yet is he also daily crucified in his members, by the instigation and appointment of the Pope of Rome, by whom all the later persecutions of true Christians hauehave been raised in seuerall countries; howsoeuer the secular power hath been the instrument of his crueltie.
speaker W. P. M. Perkins brings not onelyonly Hieroms name, but his iudgment, that Epistle being of nErasmus in Carol. oper. …eronyn…. Ludo… … ues ad Aug …e ciuit. de…, …. 18 cap 22. Rhem… Reuel. 17. 5.his writing, in the name of those two Matrons: yet we stand nor vponupon his authoritie, though we might well inough against you, and your ordinarie interpreters without name: but vponupon the reasons before deliuered, which proue that the great city is not Ierusalem, but Rome.
Which exposition, besides the authoritie of the text, hath the sauour and defence of auncient and learned men. Bernard saith, They are the ministers of Serm. in Cant. 33. Epist. 1. 25.Christ, but they serue Antichrist. Againe, The beast spoken of in the Apocalyps, to which a mouth is giuen to speake blasphemies, and to make warre with the Saints of God, is now gotten into Peters chaire, as a lyon prepared to his pray. It will be said, that Bernard spake these latter wordes of one that came to the Popedome by intrusion or vsurpation. It is true indeed: but wherefore was he an vsurper? He rendreth a reason thereof in the same place: because the Antipope called Innocentius was chosen by the kings of Almaine, France, England, Scotland, Spaine, Hierusalem, with consent of the whole Clergie and people in these nations, and the other was not. And thus Bernard hath giuen his verdict, that not only this vsurper, but all the Popes, for this many yeeres, are the beast in the Apocalyps: because now they are onelyonly chosen by the colledge of Cardinals. To this agreeth the decree of Pope Nicholas the second, ann. 1059. that the C. In nomine, dist. 23.Pope shall afterward be created by the suffrages of the Cardinall Bishops of Rome, with the consent of the rest of the Clergie and people, and the Emperor himselfe: and all Popes are excommunicate and accursed Referente Iuello. 2. Thes. 2.as Antichrists, that enter otherwise, as all now doe. Ioachimus Abbas saith, Antichrist was long since borne in Rome, and shall be yet aduanced higher in the Apostolike See. Petrarch saith, Once Rome, now Babylon. And Ireneus booke 5. chap. last, said before all these, that Antichrist should be Lateinus, a Romane.
speaker D. B. P. Novv let vsus come to the auncient and learned men, vvhom you cite in fauour of your exposition. The first is S. Bernard, vvho saith, that they are the ministers of Christ, but they serue Antichrist. Of vvhom speaketh that good religious Father? forsooth of some officers of the court of Rome. Good, vvho vvere (as he saith) the ministers of Christ, because they vvere lavvfully called by the Pope to their places, but serued Antichrist; for that they behaued themselues corruptly in their callings. And so this maketh more against you, then for you, approouing the lavvfull officers of Rome, to be Christs Ministers. The second pla…e is alleadged out of him yet more impertinently, your selfe confessing presently, that those vvords vvere not spoken of the Pope, but of his enemy. The reason yet there set dovvne, pleaseth you exceedingly: vvhichwhich you vouch so clearely that it seemeth to beare flat against you; for you inferre that the Pope, and all others since that time be vsurpers, out of this reason of S. B…nard. Because forsooth, that the Antipope called Innocentius, vvas chosen by the King of Almaine, France, England, &c and their vvhole Clergie, and people. For if fnnocentius vvere an Antichrist and vsurper, because he vvas elected by so many Kings and people then belike he that had no such election, but is chosen by the Cardinals of Rome onelyonly is true Pope. This, your vvords declare, but your meaning Or else you vnderstand them not. And answered if neede require.(as I take it) is quite contrary. But of this matter and manner of election shall be treated hereafter, if need require; It sufficieth for this present, that you finde no reliefe at all in S. Bernard, touching the maine point, that either the Pope, or Church of Rome, is Antichrist. And all the world might meruaile, if out of so sweet a Doctor, and so obedient vntounto the Pope, any such poison might be sucked: specially weighing wel, what he hath written vntounto one of them, to whom he speaketh thus. Goe to, let vsus yet enquire more diligently, who thou art, and what person thou Lib. 2. de Cons. ad Eugen.bearest in the Church of God, during the time. VVho art thou? A great Priest, the highest Bishop: thou art the Prince of Bishops, the heire of the Apostles, and in dignitie, Aaron, in authoritie, Moses, in povver, Peter, thou art he to vvhom the Keyes were deliuered, to vvhom the sheepe vvere committed: There are indeede also other Porters of Heauen, and Pastors of flockes; but thou art so much the more glorious, as thou hast inherited a more excellent name aboue them: they hauehave their flockes allotted to them, to each man one: but to thee all were committed, as one flocke, to one man: thou art not onelyonly Pastor of the sheepe, but of all other Pastors, thou alone art the Pastor. And much more to this purpose, which being his cleere opinion Are there blind places in your saints ar…tings?of the Pope, how absurd is it, out of certaine blind places and broken sentences of his to gather, that he thought the Pope of Rome to be neither sheepe, nor Pastor of Christs Church, but very Antichrist himselfe.
There is a grosse fault, also in the Canon of Pope Nicolas as he citeth it, that the Pope was to be created by the Cardinals, Bishops of Rome. As though there were some 30. or 40. Bishops at once: but of the matter of election else where.
M. Perkins hauing lightly skirmished with a broken sentence or two, out of one Catholike Authour flieth to a late here…ke, called Ioachim, and quoteth Iewell for relator of it. A worshipfull testimony of one heretike, Or rather you the falsest slanderer.and that vponupon the report of an other: and he the most lying Authour of these daies. As for the late Poet Petrarke his words might easilie be answered, but because he quoteth no place, I will not stand to answere it. But to close vp this first combat, a sentence is set downe out of the famous Martyr Ireneus, that Antichrist should be Lateinos, a Roman. Here be as many faults, as words. That learned auncient Doctor discoursing of Antichrist his proper name, out of these words of the Reuel, the number of the beast is 666. And obseruing the letters of the Greeke Alphabet, Cap. 13.(by which they doe number, as wee doe by ciphers) saith: that among others the word Lateinos, doth containe those letters, which amount iust to the number of 666. and consequently that Antichrists proper name perhaps might be Lateinos, but more likely it is to be Teitan, as he saith there, & lastly that it is most vncertaine what his name shall be. See the place (gentle reader) and learne to beware of such deceitefull merchants, as make no conscience, to corrupt the best Authours: and Whose is the Index Expurgatorios? He saith it is very likely.being often warned of it, will neuer learne to amend. Jreneus leaueth it most doubtfull what shall be Antichrists name: And among diuers words esteemeth Lateinos, to be the vnlikeliest. And yet M. Perkins reporteth him to say resolutely that his name shall be Lateinos: and then to make vp the matter turneth Lateinos, a proper name with S. Ireneus; into Romane, an appellatiue, which noteth onelyonly his country. Fie vponupon that cause, which cannot be vpholden and maintained, but by a number of such paltrie shirtes. Thus come we at length to the end of M. Perkins proofes, and reproofes in his prologue, where we finding litle fidelitie in his allegations of the Fathers, badde construction and foule ouersight in the text, of holy Scripture, briefely great malice, but slender force against the Church of Rome, we are to returne the words of his theame to all good Christians. Goe out of her my people. Forsake the enemies of the Romane Church. And as our Ancestors did the Pagan Emperours, who drew out her most pure blood, so let vsus file in matters of faith, and Religion, from all heretakes that of late also spared not to shedde abundance of the same most innocent blood, vnlesse to your greater condemnation, you had leifer be partakers of her sinnes, and receiue of her plagues.
speaker A. W. oBernar. serm. in Cantic. 33.They were the Ministers of Christ by their profession, as the Pope calls himselfe the seruant of seruants, though both he is, in truth, Antichrist, and they his ministers.
M. Perkins reason out of Bernard lyeth thus.
He that gets into Peters chaire, without the consent of the Princes, Clergie and people of Christendome, is the beast spoken of in the Apocalypse.
But all the Popes, from that schisme hitherto, hauehave so gotten into Peters chaire, viz. with consent of the Cardinals onelyonly.
Therefore all the Popes since that schisme are the beast in the Apocalypse.
The proposition is Bernards in effect, though notin words; for pIndeede Bernard makes them both A… tichrists.he pronounces the Pope to be the Beast in the Reuelation, because he was not chosen by consent of the Princes, Clergie, and people of Almaine, France, England, &c. And this Master Perkins sets downe very plaine, at these words; And thus Bernard, &c. How wide then are you from his meaning, who make the quite contrarie collection in his name? For if Innocentius (say you) were Antichrist, and an vsurper, because he was chosen by so many Kings, and people; then belike he that had no such election, but is chisen by the Cardinals of Rome onelyonly, is true Pope. He concludes out of Bernard, that he was Antichrist, because he was not chosen by the Kings, Clergie, and people, but onelyonly by the Cardinals: you, that he was true Pope, because he was not chosen by the Kings, and but onelyonly by the Cardinals.
The reason out of Bernard you answere not, but shift off the matter with alleaging a sentence of his, in commendation of Pope Eugenius, which is so full of flatterie (that I say not impietie) that it can carrie no credit with any modest Christian. It should seeme you saw so much your selfe, and therefore craftily left out these absurd and vile speeches, viz. qBernard de consider, ad Eugenium li. 2. Prima… Ab…, gubernatione Noe, patriarcha…u Abraham, ordine Melc…c, iudica…u Samuel vnctione Christus.Thou art Abel in primacie, Noah in gouernment, in Patriarkship Abraham, in order Melchisedech, in authoritie of iudging Samuel, in vnction (that is either in annoynting, or in being annoynted) Christ. If this be not a blinde sentence on Bernards part, and a broken sentence on yours, there is nothing but may abide the light, be it neuer so false; and be accounted whole, be it neuer so mangled.
It is rather grosse ignorance in you, to finde fault with that you vnderstand not. Master Perkins neither saith, nor meanes, that there were many Bishops of Rome at once, (and yet there hauehave been three Popes together) but, according to the rDist. 23. … in nomine.Canon, cals the Cardinals Bishops of Rome; referring this word (of Rome) not to Bishops simply, but to Cardinall Bishops. Now all Cardinals were Cardinals of Rome, or of the Romish Church. The Canon indeede puts not in those words of Rome; but the sense is nothing altered by the adding of them. For the cleere vnderstanding of the matter, we are to know, that all Cardinals are either Cardinall Bishops, whom the Canon appoints sInprimis Cardinales Episcopi diligen…sime simul de electione tractantes.first to consult about electing of the Pope; or Cardinall Clerkes, that is of some inferiour order of the Clergie, the general name wherof is Clerke, whether it be Priesthood, Deaconship, &c: and these tMox clericos Christi Cardinales adhibeant; sicque reliquus clerus & populus ad consensum nouae electionis accedant.must in the second place be called to the election. Now let men iudge whether Master Perkins, or you are in fault. This Canon is brought to prooue the former proposition, that he is no lawfull Pope who is chosen only by the Cardinals, and not also by the consent of the rest of the Clergie and people.
If you had been as carefull to auoide slandering, as that reuerend and learned writer was to take heede of vntruths, you would neuer hauehave raised such a suspition of him in this point. For the cleering of him, let his owne desence against Master Hardings reproches speake. For the present, uSet out by the vvorthie and learned Sir Henry Sauile.Roger Houeden, *Bal. de script. Anglic. cent. 3. cap. 55.who liued in that time, records the historie, and sets xHoueden Annal. poster. in Richard. primo.downe Ioachims words to King Richard; That Antichrist was alreadie borne in the citie of Rome, and that he should be exalted into the Apostolike seate. But you except against Ioachim as an heretike; so doth not yBellarm. Append. de sumnio pontif. cap. 11.Bellarmine, but onelyonly denies that he writ any such thing. It is true that zConcil Lateran sub Innocent. 3.the Councell of Lateran vnderunder Pope Innocent the third, condemned a certaine booke that Abbat Ioachim writ against Peter Lombard Bishop of Paris, commonly called the Master of the Sentences, concerning the vnitie or essence of the Trinitie; but it did not reiect him as an heretike: yea the Councell specially addes, that they will not by their sentence any way derogate from the Abbey of Florence, whereof he was the aInstitutor.orderer, as well because the orders in it were good, as also for that he had submitted all his writings to the Apostolike see. Therefore bCoccius in thesauro Catholico.Iodocus Coccius makes him one of his Latin Doctors, out of whom he confirmes your Popish doctrine. And cTrithemius de scriptor. Eccles.Trithemius saith, that he was a man studious and exercised in the Scriptures, and that he writ many things against the Iewes, and other aduersaries of the Catholike faith.
Petrark, one of the lights of his age for learning, wrote about 250. yeeres since, that dPetrarc. son. 108. Gia Roma, hor' Babylonia; falla e ria.Rome was become Babylon; and not onelyonly Babylon, but false and wicked Babylon. Further, in the same place he calles her, The fountaine of griefe, the lodge of wrath, the schoole of error, the temple of heresie, a shamelesse strumpet, which hauing been founded in chastitie, humilitie, and pouertie, hath lifted vp her hornes against her founders, the Emperours. eSonet. 107.In another place he calles her couetous Babylon, that hath filled vp the measure of Gods wrath, with impious and wicked vices, so that it runnes ouer. fSonet. 92.In a third he termes her impious Babylon, from whom all shame is fled; the lodge of griefe, and mother of errors, in whom there is no goodnes. I set not down all he speakes against her: somewhat I hauehave touched, that I might see how easily you will answere his words: but I thinke he that hath read gBellarm de Roman. pont. append cap. 20Bellarmine of this point, may gesse before hand what you can say in the matter.
hIrenae. lib. 5. cap. 25.Irenaeus, as you truly say, determines not what shall be Antichrists name, and leanes more to foreign than to foreign: yet neither doth he allow of that, because iHabet verisimilitudinem vt ex multis coll…gamus, ne forte Teitan vocetur qui venier.a man (as hee saith) may with likelihood gather by many things, that his name perhaps shall not be foreign, and of foreign he affirmes that it is kValde verisimile est quoniam verissinum regnum hoc habet voca…ulum.very likely: and giues his reason of it; because the most true kingdome had that name. Master Perkins expounded it not as a proper name, but as an appellatiue; because neither lReuel. 13.the Euangelist nor Irenaeus doe intend to shew Antichrists proper name; but mSee D…name of …. l…b. 1. cap. 8.to make knowne the name of the Beast, which Antichrist should make all take. Now the Beast being the Romane or Latin state, the name also must be sutable thereunto, as wee see it is: our Papists calling themselues Romane; that is Latin Catholikes. I will not fall into exhortation hereupon; only I desire all men, that hauehave care of their saluation, to consider, without preiudice, whether it be not euident that the state of Rome, whereof the Pope is head, is the whore of Babylon, prophecied of by S. Iohn, Reuelat. 17.
speaker W. P. Againe, this commandement must not so much be vnderstood of a bodily departure in respect of cohabitation and presence, as of a spirituall separation in respect of faith and religion. And the meaning of the holy Ghost is, that men must depart from the Romish Church in regard of Iudgement and doctrine, in regard of their faith and the worship of God.
Thus then we see that the words containe a commaundement from God, inioyning his Church and people to make a separation from Babylon. Whence I obserue, That all those who will bee saued, must depart and separate themselues from the faith and religion of this present church of Rome. And whereas they are charged with schisme that separate on this manner; the truth is, they are not schismatiks that doe so, because they hauehave the commandement of God for their warrant: and that partie is the schismatike in whom the cause of this separation lieth: and that is in the Church of Rome, namely the cup of abomination in the whores hand, which is, their heretical and schismaticall religion.
speaker D. B. P. And because I purpose (God willing) not only to confute what M. Perkins bringeth against the Catholike doctrine, but some what also in euerie Chapter to fortifie and confirme it: I will here deliuer what some of the most auncient, most learned, and most holy Fathers doe teach concerning ioyning with the Church, and Pope of Rome: from whose societie Protestants labour tooth and nayle to withdraw vsus. And because of this we must treate more amply in the question of supremacie, I will vse here their authoritie, only whom M. Perkins citeth against vsus. S. Bernard is cited already, S. Ireneus Scholler of S. Polycarpe, and he of S. Iohn the Euangelist of the Church of Rome writeth thus. To this Church, by reason of her more mightie principalitie, it is necessary that eueryevery Church, that is the saithfull on all sides, to condescend and agree; in, Lib. 3. cap. 3.and by which, alwaies, the tradition of the Aposiles hath been preserued of them, that be round about her.
Saint Jerome writing to Damasus Pope of Rome, saith: I following none as chiefest, but Christ, doe in participation ioyne with thy blessednesse, that is, with the chayre of Peter, I know the Church to be builded vponupon that Rocke. VVhosoeuer doth eate the Paschall Lambe out of this house, is a prophane fellovv, he that is not found vvithin the Arke of Noe, shall when the floudes arise perish: And a litle after, knovv not Vitalis, I refuse Meletius, I take no notice of Paulinus: he that gathereth not vvith thee, scattereth; that is, he that is not vvith Christ, is vvith Antichrist.VVell sare a good glosse.
Marke and embrace this most learned Doctors iudgement, of ioyning vvith the See of Rome, in all doubtfull questions: he vvould not trust to his ovvne vvit and skill vvhichwhich vvere singular; nor thought it safe to relie vponupon his learned and vvise neighbours: he durst not set vp his rest vvith his ovvne Bishop Paulinus, vvho vvas a man of no meane marke but the Patriarke of Antioch: but made his assured stay vponupon the See of Rome, as vponupon an vnmoueable Rocke, vvith vvhichwhich (saith he) if vve doe not communicate in faith and Sacraments, vve are but profane men, voide of all Religion: In a vvord, vve belong not to Christ, but be of Antichrists traine. See, hovv flat contrarie this most holy ancient Father is to M. Perkins. M. Perkins vvould make vsus of Antichrists band, Not because you cleaue to Damasus in this poynt. Lib. 3. de Sacra. cap. 1.because vve cleaue vntounto the Bishop of Rome. Whereas Saint Hierome holdeth all to appertaine to Antichrist, who be not fast lincked in matters of Religion, with the Pope and See of Rome. And so to conclude with this point, euerie true Catholike must say with Saint Ambrose: I desire in all things to follovv the Church of Rome. And thus much of his Prologue.
speaker A. W. It is a weake fortifying of Popish doctrine, to alleage a few sentences written one thousand, or more yeeres since, in approbation of the Church of Rome, as it was then. Irenaeus, Hierome, Ambrose, would hauehave all men ioyne with the Church of Rome, which florished in their daies: therefore no man may separate from it, in these our daies. Who sees not the feeblenes of this consequence? And yet this is all the force that can be in the reason, till they hauehave prooued, that the Church of Rome either was then, or is not now, the Church of Antichrist.
If that principalitie, Irenaeus speaks of, were in the Church of Rome, by any right of authoritie from God; how should the same Irenaeus be excused, who nIren. lib. 3. cap. 3.reprooues Victor B. of Rome, for taking vponupon him to excommunicate some of the Easterne Churches, about obseruing of Easter? If it be in oNicolas Galas. ad illum Irenaei…um.respect of the truth which then florished at Rome, no doubt all men must cleaue vntounto it, as farre as it cleaues to the truth of God.
pHieron. ad Damasum.Hierome a Romane, and at that time a yong man, liuing in Syria, being pressed by an Arian Bishop to allow, by subscription that, which might tend to the countenancing of Arianisme, writes to Damasus his owne Bishop, for his aduice in the matter. But that he did, not in respect of his place, as if hee could not erre, because he was Bishop of Rome (for Liberius the very next Bishop before Damasus, by qDescriptor. eccles. in Fortunatiano.Hieroms owne confession, had subscribed to Arianisme) but in regard of his iudgement, which was sound against that heresie: so that whosoeuer, in that question, gathered not with him, scattered, and held with Antichrist against Christ.
Those, all things, that rAmbros. de sacra. lib. 3. cap. 1.Ambrose speaks of, are, according to the place alleaged by you, to be restrained to the Liturgie, and Ceremonies of the Church of Rome. Wherein though Ambrose professe himselfe desirous to follow the Church (note by the way, that the Church of Rome is taken sGabriel Biel in Canon. Missae, lect. 18. de quotidiana praefatione.as a particular Diocesan Church, such as the Church of Millan also was at that time, and not as the vniuersall Catholike Church) yet he did not so follow it, because reason led him another way: his words are these: In all things I desire to follow the Romane Church: but tEt nos homines …ensum habemus.yet we also being men hauehave vnderstanding: therefore that, which is otherwhere better obserued, we also rightly keepe: We follow the Apostle Peter himselfe, we sticke vntounto his deuotion, &c. Out of which speech of Ambrose, these points are to be obserued. First, that the vnderstanding of Christian men is to direct them, wherein they are to follow the Church of Rome, wherein to leaue it. Secondly, that some other Churches might, and did better obserue diuers things, than the Church of Rome did. Thirdly, that the Church of Rome did not obserue that, which the Apostle Peter (at least in Ambrose his iudgement) had deuoutly performed. Thus we see what helpe there is in the ancient writers to free the Pope and Church of Rome, that now are, from being the very Antichrist foretold of in the Reuelation.
speaker W. P. Now touching the dutie of separation, I meane to speake at large, not standing so much to prooue the same, because it is euident by the text, as to shew the manner and measure of making this separation: and therein I will handle two things. First, how far forth we may ioyne with them in the matter of religion: secondly, how far forth and wherein we must dissent and depart from them. And for this cause I meane to make choice of certaine points of religion, and to speake of them in as good order as I can, shewing in each of them our consent and difference: and the rather, because some harpe much vponupon this string, that a Vnion may be made of our two religions, and that we differ not in substance, but in points of circumstance.
speaker D. B. P. Afterward he taketh vponupon him to prescribe and shew vsus how far forth we may ioyne with the Church of Rome, by proposing many points in controuersie, betweene vsus, and them, and in each shewing in what points we consent togither, and in what we differ. I meane by Gods I hope you vvil note that disorder, vvhen you come to it.grace to follow him, step by step, although he hath made many a disorderly one, aswell to discouer his deceits and to disproue their errors, as also to establish the Catholike Doctrine, the which I will endeuour to performe (by the helpe of God) with all simplicitie of language, and with as much breuity as such a weightie matter will permitte. Yet (I hope) with that perspicuitie, as the meaner learned may vnderstand it, and with such substance of proofe, both out of the holy Scriptures and auncient Fathers, as the more iudicious (to vvhose profit it is principallie dedicated) may not contemne it.
speaker A. W. I will labour, as much as I can, both for plainnes and shortnes in all the seuerall points, not doubting, but (by the grace of God) to maintaine Master Perkins reasons and answers against all your cauils.