A General View of Papistry, Book 2 · Controversy 9 · Part 2 · Question 1
THE FIRST QVESTION CONCERNING THE blessed and happie estate of the Saints departed.
THis question hath two parts: First, of their blessednes which they hauehave before God in heauen. Secondly, of the publishing or making knowne their blessednes before men, which they call the canonizing of Saints.
THE FIRST PART OF THE BLESSED estate of the Saints before God in heauen.
The Papists.
BEllarmine taketh great paynes, Lib. 1. De Sanctis, in sixe long chapters together, to proue, that the Saints departed doe presently enioy the sight of God, and doe enter into blisse, and that their soules forthwith are receiued into heauen, and are not kept in any secret by-places till the day of iudgement. But all this while he sighteth with his owne shadowe: for we grant, as much as he proueth, that the righteous are with Christ so soone as they are loosed from their bodies, as Christ sayd to the theefe vponupon the Crosse, This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise, Luk. 23.42. See also to this purpose, Philipp. 1.23. 2. Corinth. 5.1. Heb. 12.22. All these places doe euidently proue, that presently after their departure, the soules of the faithfull doe enioy the presence of Christ, and the celestiall companie of the Angels in heauen. Yet our aduersaries stay not heere, neither are contented with this, that the Saints are blessed: but proceede further, and giuegive them a full possession of blessednesse, making no difference betweene error 22 them and the Angels in glorie, but affirme that they are as highly exalted as the Angels are, Rhemist. annot. Luk. 15. sect. 2. And Bellarmine therefore taketh vp Caluine, because he saith, the Saints are yet in hope and expectation of the perfect fruition of glorie, Cap. 1. lib. 1. De Sanctis.
The Protestants.
WE confesse, that the Saints in heauen are alreadie aApocal. 14.13.blessed: yet they looke for the full accomplishment and perfection of their glorie, when as their bodies shall be glorified in the resurrection: Then it is sayd, they shall be like the Angels, and yet not in all things: much lesse are their soules now equall to the Angels in glorie, Fulk. ibid. annot. Luk. 15. sect. 2.
Argum. 1. The Saints shall be as the Angels, but not before the resurrection, Math. 22.30. Neither can it be proued out of that text, that they shall then be equall to the Angels in all things: for it is not all one to say; they shall be as the Angels, because they shall then neede no marriage, as to say they shall be equal to the Angels in all things. Apocalyps. 6.10. The soules vnderunder the altar doe crie, Lord, how long! Ergo, they are in expectation of greater glorie. And reason also giueth as much, that the bodie and the soule being ioyned together in the kingdome of God, shall make a fuller weight and measure of ioye.
Argum. 2. The wicked spirits and damned soules, hauehave not yet their full and perfect torment: Ergo, neither the Saints their perfect ioye. The diuels are now tormented, and kept in chaines of darknesse, 2. Pet. 2.4. Iud. 6. But their full damnation is reserued for the day of the Lord, Math. 25.41. They are not yet tormented in such measure, as they shall be, and themselues make account for, Math. 8.29. Luk. 8.31.
Lastly, if now the Saints are equall to the Angels in ioye, their soules onelyonly being in heauen: it then followeth, that in the resurrection, when their bodies shall be restored to their soules, their happines shall farre oRhemist. Luk. 20. sect. 3 affirme that some Saints shall be aboue the Angels.exceede the Angels: which no where the scripture teacheth vsus, vnles they will thus reason, Christ tooke not the Angels, but the seede of Abraham, Hebr. 2.16. Ergo, wee are better then the Angels. But to this Augustine answereth very well: Some perhaps will say, that wee are better then the Angels, because Christ dyed for vsus, and not for the Angels. Quale est (sayth he) ideo se velle aegrotum laudari, quia vitio suo tam detestabiliter aegrotauit, vt non posset aliter, Tractat. in Iohan. 110.quam medic… morte sanari. As if a sicke man deserued commendation, because by his owne fault, he was so dangerously sicke, that he could not be healed, but by the death of the Phisition. Quid hoc aliud est, quàm de impietate gloriari? Christus enim pro impijs mortuus est. What is this els but for man to boast of his wickednes? Christ dyed not for angels, but for men, because they were wicked.
THE SECOND PART, OF THE Canonizing of Saints.
The Papists.
error 23 THe Canonizing of Saints, is nothing els but the publike determination and sentence of the Church, whereby men that are dead, are iudged to be Saints, and worthie of honour and worship, as to be prayed vntounto, temples and altars to be set vp in their names, holy daies to be appoynted for them, and their reliques to be adored. And thus it is lawfull, profitable, and expedient for the Church to Canonize Saints, Bellarm. cap. 7.
Argum. 1. The Patriarkes and Prophets were Canonized for Saints in the old law, Heb. 11. So Act. 7. Stephen & other were Canonized: therfore it is credible, that the Lord would hauehave the same order still continued in his Church, Bellarm. cap. 7.
Ans. First, neither in the old nor the new lawe, were any set vp to be Saints, with intent to be worshipped, called vponupon, temples to be consecrated in their names: but onelyonly the scripture giueth testimonie of them, as of holy and faithfull men: and so may we also honour the blessed Martyrs, whom the cruell Emperours of Rome, and since them the Popes of Rome hauehave sent through fire and other torments to heauen. Secondly, when they hauehave as good testimonie for their Saints, as we hauehave for the holy Patriarkes and Prophets, they may be bold to pronounce them to be holy blessed. Thirdly, your argument followeth not, vnles you will say, that the Church may doe all things now, which the Prophets and Apostles did then: They may as well make scripture, and more Canonicall bookes by the same reason, as make and Canonize new Saints.
The Protestants.
THat none of the Saints are to be adored or worshipped, their images or reliques, or praiers to be made vntounto them, or any such honor to be giuen them, it shall afterward appeare more at large: And therefore they ought not to be Canonized to any such end or purpose. We also grant, that the number of Gods Saints and elect is encreased daylie: and we are sure in generall, as the scripture testifieth, that the death of his Saints is precious in the sight of God, Psal. 116.15. And that all are blessed that dye in the Lord: But particularly we are not able certainly to determine of any: the matter is to be left wholly vntounto God, and we in the meane time to hope the best.
Argum. 1 If the Church hath authoritie to Canonize Saints, & determine of the election or saluation of men, then may we as well iudge of the condemnation of those that are lost: for if it be knowen to the Church who are Saints in heauen, they also may as wel define who are damned in hell. But this none can doe: nay, it were great rashnes and want of charity for any so to take vponupon them. S. Paul saith, Why condemnest thou another mans seruant? hee standeth or falleth to his owne master, Rom. 14.4. No man can iudge whether the seruant stand or fall, but his Master: Ergo, if the Church presume to determine of the election or damnation of those that are departed, she is nowe a Mistres and Lady rather of the Saintes, then they Lords or patrones to her, as the Papistes holde they are.
Argum. 2 Iudge not (saith S. Paul. 1. Corinth. 4.5.) before the time vntill the Lord come. The iudgement then of men, who are saued, and who are condemned, is reserued for the comming of Christ: Therefore it is great presumption for men to preuent the time, and to take vponupon them to bee Iudges in Gods place. Againe, our Sauiour Christ saith, that To sit at his right hand or left, in his kingdome, was not his to giuegive (meaning as he was man) but it shal be giuen to them for whome it is prepared of my Father, Math. 20.23. How then is it in the power of any sinfull man, to giuegive vntounto any a seat, either at the right hand, or left hand of Christ, in the kingdome of God? Argument. Gualter. Bruti. Fox page. 487.
Augustine also consenteth: Non separatio iam cuique tuta est, illius erit separatio, qui non nouit errare: Nos in hac vita difficile est, vt nos ipsos nouerimus, quantò minùs debemus de quoquā praeproperam ferre sententiam. It is not safe for men now to make separation (of the good and bad) it belongeth to him, that can not erre: We in this life do hardly know our selues, howe much lesse ought we to iudge rashly of others? exposit. in Psalm. 139. Here are two reasons giuen, why it is not lawfull for men to iudge of the election or reprobation of men: first their iudgement is subiect to error, and therefore the matter must be referred to God, who erreth not: Secondly, we can not iudge our selues, much lesse can we iudge of others. Ergo, no man liuing ought or is able to define either who are Saints in heauen, or who are damned in Hell.
AN APPENDIX OR THIRD PART of other circumstances, which belong to the Canonizing of Saints.
The Papists.
THey say, that it doth appertaine onelyonly to the Pope, to Canonize a Saint for error 24 the whole Church: and that none ought to be acknowledged for Saints, but they that are so Canonized by him: And that herein the Pope is of so infallible a iudgement, that he can not erre in Canonizing of Saints: because that ordinarily none are Canonized by the Pope for saintes, which hauehave not beene knowne to worke miracles, Bellarm. lib. 1. cap. 8.9, 10.
The Protestants.
FIrst, if saintes were to be registred and Canonized as they say: yet it should not belong to the Pope, but to the whole Church.
Argum. 1 The Pope hath no authoritie ouer the whole Church: no nor yet in any other Bishoppes dioces, no more then they hauehave in his: Let him be content with his owne dioces (and it were to be wished, that he could rule that well) the whole world is too large a prouince for him.
2 The whole Church hath power to excommunicate and deliuer vp to sathan, 1. Corinth 5.4. and to cut off the prophane and wicked from the Church of God, as heathen and publicanes, Math. 18.17: Ergo, to iudge who are members of the Church, and saintes of God, is a matter which appertaineth to the whole Church. 3 Before Anno. 800. in the time of Carolus magnus, there was no saint publiquely Canonized by the pope, as Bellarm. confesseth: but the truth is, this custome of Canonizing saints beganne not till more then 1000. yeare after Christ, til Alexander the 3. his time, and Gregorie the 7. I pray you then, were there no saints before? if there were, who canonized them?
Secondly: So much as is to be knowne of saints and holy men, eueryevery Christian is to acknowledge, without any publike decree or determination of the Pope or any other: for the word of God giueth rules, whereby we may discern the righteous from the vnrighteous: Christ speaking of false prophets, sayeth, By their fruites ye shall know them, Math. 7.16. And againe, he fayth thus to his Apostles, By this shal men know that you are my disciples, if you louelove one another, Iohn 13.35. By these rules, it is easie for eueryevery Christian to iudge who for the present time, are the true disciples of Christ, who otherwise.
Thirdly, it is a most impudent and shameles saying, that the Pope can not erre in canonizing of Saintes: 1 Miracles are no sufficient proofe of a saint: for many, that shal be condemned in the day of Iudgement, hauehave had power to do straunge workes, Math. 7.22, 23. 2 What better argument can wee hauehave of this, then common experience? For the Popes hauehave registred in their Calendars notorious wicked mē, and traitors to their Princes, as saints and holy men: Such an one was Thomas Becket, who som hundreth yeers was worshipped as a saint, by the name of S. Thomas of Canterbury: and yet was a plaine traitour to his prince, Fox page 225. And therefore his shrine was iustly put downe in King Henrie the 8. dayes. Richard Scroope of York was openly in armes against Henry the fourth.Fox. pa. 579 Thomas Earle of Lancaster a rebell against Edward the second, yet both are the popes canonized saintes.
Fox p. 1054Elizabeth Barton was called the holy Maide of Kent, and fayned that she had many reuelations: yet was found to be a traitour, & executed: these are the popes saints. And on the other side, they hauehave condemned the true saintes and Martyrs of God, and accursed them to the bottomlesse pit of Hell: as they delt most wickedly with Iohn Husse that zealous seruant of God, vponupon whose head they set a crowne of paper pictured with deuilles, as if he were giuen into the power of Satā. But we do iudge of these holy men, as the scripture teacheth, which sayth, that they are blessed which dye in the Lord, Apocal. 14.13. Their good life, holy profession, and constant death and martyrdome decla…d no lesse; and that assurance, which God gaue them of their election: as it appeared in that worthy Martyr doctor Barnes, who being brought to the stake, sayeth thus vntounto the people: If saintes do pray for vsus, I trust to pray for you within this halfe houre: who at the same time vttered his opinion, that not withstanding to pray vntounto saintes was against the worde of God,Fox. page. 1199. although it should be granted, that they pray for vsus.
Let them now be ashamed to say still, that the pope cannot erre in Canonizing saints, who condemneth good men, and iustifieth the wicked, according to the common saying, Many are worshipped for saints in heauen, whose soules do burne in Hell.
Thirdly, Augustine thus writeth of this matter: Per has humanorum cordium tenebras, res multùm miranda & dolenda contingit, vt eum nonnunquam quem iniustum putamus (iustiu tamen est) auersemur, & hominem bonum tanquam malum affligamus, quem nescientes amamus. By reason of the darkenes and ignorance of mens heartes, a pitifull and strange thing many times falleth out, that we should hate a man, whome we take to be a wicked and vngodly one (and yet he is a righteous man:) and so wee punish a good man for a bad, whom we notwithstanding do vnwittingly louelove for his goodnes, tract. in Iohan. 99. Ergo the iudgement of men is vncertaine, and the best may be deceiued in iudging of others, who are bad, and who good.