A General View of Papistry, Book 2 · Controversy 9 · Part 1 – Part 2

A General View of Papistry · Book 2 · Controversy 9 · Part 1 – Part 2

p. 302THE FIRST QVESTION, OF LIMBVS PATRVM, where the Patriarkes were imagined to be.

The Papists.

Haeres. 9.THey hauehave deuised and imagined in their foolish conceit foure infernall and subterrestrial places: Hell, Purgatorie, Limbus infantium, where children remaine dying without baptisme, and Limbus Patrum, where the Fathers were before Christs comming. These places they distinguish three waies: first by the situation: Hell is lowest, Purgatorie is next, Limbus infantium in the third place, Limbus Patrum vppermost. Secondly, they differ in measure of punishment, some of them hauehave poenam damni, and poenam sensus, a double punishment, both of losse, in that they are excluded heauen, and of paine also, as Hell, and Purgatorie: the other two Limbi, are but dungeons of darknes onelyonly, where they suffer no other smart or paine, but are onelyonly absent from God. Thirdly, they differ in time and continuance, say they, Hell and the dungeon of children shall abide for euer: but Purgatorie and the dungeon of the fathers are temporall: the one, that is, Limbus Patrum is many yeeres agoe dissolued: and Purgatorie also shall cease, say they, at the comming of Christ, Ballarm. de purgat. lib. 2. cap. 6.

This then is their opinion, that the Patriarkes and Prophets before Christs comming were not in heauen, but were kept in an infernall place of darknesse, yet without paine, and were deliuered by Christs descending into hell, Bellarm. de Christi anima. lib. 4. cap. 11. Rhemist. Heb. 9.8.

Argum. First, Heb. 11.40. God prouiding a better thing for vsus, that they without p. 303vsus should not be perfect: That is, (say the Rhemists) the Fathers of the law could not be admitted to the ioyes of heauen, till the Apostles and other of the new lawe, were associate with them, and a way made into heauen by the death and ascension of Christ, Rhemist. ibid.

Ans. First, by this reason the Patriarkes could not enter into heauen before the death of the Apostles, if there were no enterance found, vnlesse they were associate with them. Secondly, if the way were not opened before Christs ascension, then the Patriarkes could not ascend before: where were they then al those 40. daies? for they were deliuered out of Limbus Patrum before Christs resurrection. Thirdly, there is therefore no such meaning of this place: but it is to be vnderstood of the resurrection, when as all the elect shall be consummate together, and enter bodie and soule into heauen. Fulk.

2 Zachar. 9.11. I hauehave loosed thy prisoners out of the pit, where there is no water; That is out of Limbus Patrum, Bellarm. de Christi anima. lib. 4. cap. 11.

Ans. Augustine giueth a cleane contrarie sense of the place, by the pit without water he vnderstandeth, Humanae miseriae siccam profunditatem & sterilem, vbi non sunt fluenta iustitiae, sed iniquitatis lutum: De ciuitat. dei. lib. 18. cap. 35.The drie and barren dungeon of humane miserie, where there are no springs of iustice, but the puddle and mire of iniquitie: That is, the Prophet speaketh of the deliuerance of the people from their cruel and vniust bondage and captiuitie.

3 1. Pet. 3.19. In the which spirit he also went and preached vntounto the spirits that were in prison, which sometime had been disobedient in the daies of Noe. This place proueth euidently (sayth Bellarm.) that Christ descended into hell, and deliuered the fathers from thence, De Christi anima. lib. 4.13.

Ans. The place can hauehave no such meaning: First, by the spirit here the humane soule of Christ cannot be vnderstood, but is diuine power: for he was not quickned or restored to life by his humane soule, but by his diuine power his soule was ioyned againe to his bodie. Augustine also giueth another reason, why he cannot be said to be quickned or made aliue in spirit, that is, in his soule: for then he must hauehave died before in soule. But, Mors animae peccatum est, à quo ille immunis fuit: But the death of the soule is sinne, from the which Christ was free.

2 The Apostle speaketh onelyonly of those which were incredulous and disobedient, not of the faithfull, such as the Patriarkes were and Prophets. Yea (sayth Bellarm.) they might be vnbeleeuers at the first, but after repented before they dyed.

Ans. Then the Apostles comparison could not hold, if any were saued without the Arke: for as then eight persons onelyonly were saued, all without the Arke perished: so now without baptisme and faith of the Church (for by baptisme he vnderstandeth not the washing of water, but the inward grace of the spirit) none can be saued. If then any were saued out of the Arke, there may now also be saluation out of the Church. Augustine also sayth, Ii modò, qui non crediderunt Euangelio illis intelligantur esse similes, qui tunc non crediderunt, cum fabricaretur p. 304arca. They which now beleeue not the Gospell, are like to them which beleeued not then while the Arke was in making. And they which doe now beleeue and are baptized, are like to those which then were saued in the Arke. Augustine thinketh therefore, that they were incredulous persons, and vtterly perished both bodie and soule: And so is our opinion.

3 The text saith not, he went and deliuered, but went and preached: for Augustine calleth it an absurd thing to thinke, that the Gospell was preached to them that were dead, which in their life time were incredulous: for if the Gospell bee preached in Hell (sayth he) it would followe that it is not necessarie it should be preached here in the world, if men when they are dead, may heare it, and be conuerted. And againe, it would ensue (sayth he) that there should bee a Church in hell: for where the word is preached, there is a Church. Wherefore he concludeth, that it must needes be vnderstood of Noah his preaching in the spirit and power of Christ: Arcae fabricatio, praedicatio quaedam fuit. The building of the Arke was a kinde of preaching, Epistol. 99. So also he expoundeth that 1. Pet. 4.6. The Gospell was preached to the dead: Ex circumstantia loci apparet, eum intelligere eos, qui nunc mortui sunt, sed olim in vita Euangelium audiuerunt. Commentar▪ in epistol. ad Roman.

4 The text is not, that were in prison, but doth better beare this sense, that are: So the Apostles meaning is this, that they which were incredulous and disobedient in time past, when Noah in the spirit of Christ, or Christ by his spirit in Noah preached to the world, were then destroyed in the flood, & now for their increduliti… are punished in the prison of hell.

The Protestants.

THat the holy Patriarkes, Fathers and Prophets dyed in the same faith before the comming of Christ, which all true Christians doe now hold, and were presently receiued into the ioyes of heauen, and not kept in any infernall place or dungeon of darknes: thus it is proued.

1 They had all faith, and beleeued in Christ: yea, the same faith that is now preached: as it is defined by the Apostle, Heb. 11.1. They also by this faith obtained remission of sinnes, Rom. 4.7. Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiuen, as it is alleadged out of the Psalme: Ergo, they were blessed: but out of the kingdome of God there was no blessednesse to be found: therefore they also went to heauen.

2 If the heauens were not opened before Christs ascension, as the Rhemists affirme: then none went to heauen before Christ ascended. But that is false: Henoch and Elias by their owne confession were taken vp into Paradise: so was the soule of the theefe vponupon the Crosse. But Paradise is heauen, yea the third and the highest heauen, as S. Paul calleth it, 2. Corinth. 12.4. And so Augustine expoundeth that place, Voluit Deus Apostolo demonstrare vitam, in qua post hanc vitam viuendum est in aeternū. The Lord would shew vntounto the Apostle p. 305that life, wherein, after this life, we shall liue and remaine for euer: De Gene. lib. 12.28. These three therefore went to Paradise, which is no infernall or place of darknesse, but a Celestiall habitation of ioy, light, and felicitie: They were not then in Limbo Patrum, in the dungeon of the Fathers. Wherefore we conclude, there was accesse to heauen before the ascension of Christ.

3 The Fathers and Patriarkes, before Christs comming, were in Abrahams bosome: but that was no infernall place or prison, such as they imagine Limbus Patrum to be. Augustine proueth, that it could not be membrum, or pars inferorum, a member or part of Hell, or any infernall▪ place, as the Iesuits hold: First, the text saith, there is magnum chaos, a great gulfe, a great distance betweene, Luk. 16.26. and vers. 23. The rich man sawe Abraham a farre off: wherefore it is not like, that both those places should be infernall. Secondly, Abrahams bosome, was quietis habitatio, & faelicitatis sinus, a place of rest and blisse: but so is not any infernall place, where there is horror, and darknesse. Thirdly, the place where the rich man was, is called Hell, or infernall: there is no such thing sayd of Lazarus, that he was in any lower place: but aboue in some high and farre distant place: for the rich man is sayd to lift vp his eyes. Augustine then concludeth: Ne ipsos quidem inferos vspiam scripturarum locis in bono appellatos reperire potui. Epistol. 99. I doe not finde that this word infernall, is taken any where in the scriptures in the good part. And therefore the bosome of Abraham, being a place of rest, sayth he, cannot be any infernall place.

AN APPENDIX OR APPERTINANCE OF THIS question, concerning the apparition of Samuel.

The Papists.

THey hold opinion, that it was the very soule of Samuel that appeared at the error 10 witches house at Endor vntounto Saul: and vse it as an argument, to proue that the soules of the Patriarkes were not in heauen, but in some infernall place, before Christs comming, because Samuel ascended out of the earth, Bellarm. De Christ. anim. lib. 411.

Argum. 1. Because he that appeared to Saul, is called Samuel in the text. Augustine answereth: that the Images of things, are called by the names of the things themselues: as Genes. 41. Pharao sayd, he sawe eares of corne, and fat and leane kine in his dreame, when they were but the images of such things: So the diuell because he appeared in the shape of Samuel, Samuel himselfe is sayd to be seene: Ad Simplicianum lib. 2. quaest. 3.

Argum. 2. Ecclesiastic. 46: It is set downe as a commendation of Samuel, that he prophecied being dead, Ergo, it was Samuel indeed, Bellarm. De Purgat. lib. 2. cap. 6.

Augustine answereth, that this booke was not receiued into the Canon of the scriptures: It is not Canonicall, De cura pro mortuis. cap. 15.

p. 306Arg. 3. He telleth Saul things to come, as how the next day he should be ouercome, and slaine. But the diuell knoweth not things to come, Bellar. ibid.

Augustine answereth, Facile est & non incongruum: It is an easie matter with God, and not vnlikely, that some things should be reuealed to euill spirits, for the greater punishment of the wicked: for otherwise we might maruaile: Quomodo daemones agnouerint Christum, quem Iudaei non agnoscebant: How the diuels knewe Christ, whom the Iewes did not acknowledge: Ad Simplician. lib. 2. quaest. 3.

The Protestants.

THat it was not the soule of Samuel which appeared, who was now at rest; but the diuell in the likenes of Samuel, who also can transforme himselfe into an Angel of light: Augustine proueth by these foure arguments.

Argum. 1. Because the Witch or Pythonist vsed enchantments, vntounto the which the soule of so holy a prophet was not subiect, Daemoniacis incantationibus vti videtur. De mirabilib. scriptur. 2. cap. 11. Bellarmine answereth: that Samuel preuented her enchantment, and came vp voluntarily.

Ans. The text is contrarie, vers. 11. for the woman first asketh Saul, whom she should bring vp, that is, by her charmes and incantations: and he sayd, bring me vp Samuel.

Argum. 2. Quomodo Saul &c. How could Saul obtaine to heare a Prophet speake from the dead, whom God vouchsafed not to answere by Prophets aliue? The text is, that God gaue him no answere neither by Prophets, nor by dreames, therefore I hauehave called for thee, vers. 15. Ergo, it was not Samuel, for then God should hauehave giuen him answere by Prophets.

Argum. 3. If it had been Samuel, he would not hauehave told a lye vntounto Saul, saying, to morowe thou shalt be with me: Magno quippe interuallo separari bonos à malis legimus: for we reade that the good are separated from the bad by a great distance after this life, as it appeareth in the storie of Diues and Lazarus. August. ad Simplician. ibid.

Bellarm. He sayth as much, as you shall be dead: noting the generall condition, not the particular state of the dead.

Ans. This phrase in scripture importeth, and implieth also the particular state of those that are departed, as 2. Sam. 12.23. Dauid saith of his child, I shall goe to him, he shal not come to me: And Luk. 23.43. Christ saith, This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise: In both places it signifieth to be in rest and ioye, in the same place, where they are, with whom they are sayd, they shalbe: Ergo, it must be so taken here.

Argum. 4. If it had been Samuel: Vtique vir iustus non permisisset se adorari, The iust man would not hauehave suffered himselfe to be adored and worshipped: as the diuell doth take it at Saules hands, to be worshipped of him. For the text sayth, he enclined his face toward the ground, and bowed himselfe, or worshipped: August. quaest. ex veteri. testam. 27.

p. 307THE SECOND QVESTION CONCERNING Purgatorie.

THe question hath three parts: first, whether there be any Purgatorie for soules to be purged & cleansed in after this life. Secondly, of other circumstances and matters that doe belong thereunto. Thirdly, of praier for the dead.

THE FIRST PART, WHETHER THERE BE any Purgatorie after this life.

The Papists.

THere is (they say) a certaine infernall place in the earth, called Purgatorie,Haeres▪ 11. in the which, as in a prison house, the soules which were not fully purged in this life, are there cleansed and purged by fire, before they can be receiued into heauen: Bellarm. de Purgator. lib. 1.1. lib. 2.6. Rhemist. Matth. 12. sect. 6.

Argum. 1. Zachar. 9.11. Thou hast loosed thy prisoners out of the pit where was no water. Psalm. 66.12. We went through fire and water. These and such like places the Iesuite vnderstandeth of Purgatorie, Lib. 1. de Purgator. cap. 3.

Ans. First, the Iesuite brought this place before, to proue that there was Limbus Patrum, and now he maketh it serue for Purgatorie: thus they can make the scripture to speake what they list themselues. But Purgatorie and Limbus Patrum, are two diuers, yea and contrary things: for the Limbus was onelyonly for those that liued before Christ: Purgatorie began since: the Limbus was voyde of payne and punishment, so is not Purgatorie: wherefore if the Lake or pit in Zacharie signifie Purgatorie, it maketh nothing for Limbus: and if it serue for Limbus, then they misse of a place for Purgatorie. But indeede it signifieth no such thing: but is taken onelyonly in that place for the affliction and miserie of this life, as we shewed out of Augustine. And so doth he also expound such and the like places out of the Psalmes: as Psalm. 86.13. Thou hast deliuered my soule from the lowest graue. Quid (sayth he) est lacus infimus, nisi profundissima miseria, qua non sit profundior? What els (sayth he) is the lowest pit or graue, but the lowest degree of miserie, then the which there can be no greater?

Argum. 2. Luk. 8.55. Her spirit came againe and she arose. Christ raised the rulers daughter to life. This euidently sheweth that there is a third place beside Heauen and Hell: for the soules that are there cannot returne againe, Rhemist.

Ans. Surely a goodly argument, the spirits of Lazarus and of the Maide returned: Ergo, there is a third place: and why may you not thinke, that their soules were, whereas the soules of other righteous are? And why may not the p. 308Lord bring at his pleasure, if it pleaseth him, the soules at rest into their bodies againe? Fulk. 8. sect. 5.

Argum. 3. Of all other they most insult, and beare themselues bolde vponupon that place of Saint Paul, 1. Corinth. 3. which being rightly vnderstood, doth not helpe them anything at al: vers. 13. The fire shal trie eueryevery mans worke. vers. 15. if any mans worke burne, he shall suffer losse, but he shall be safe himselfe, yet as it were through the fire. Bellarm. Rhemist. by fire here vnderstand the flames of Purgatorie; by wood, stubble, strawe; veniall sinnes, which must be purged by that fire, Rhemist. 1. Cor. 3. sect. 3.

Ans. First, by the precious matter here, as of gold, siluer, are not the workes of charitie vnderstood, but the preaching of sound doctrine: by straw, and stubble, and wood, and other combustible matter, the affectation of eloquence, and corrupt teaching of the truth, yet holding the foundation: not veniall sinnes, as the Rhemists affirme: and this Bellarmine also granteth.

Secondly, fire is here taken allegorically, as the rest of the words are of gold, siluer, stubble: neither can it be taken for their Purgatorie fire; because it trieth the workes onelyonly, not the persons, and all must be tried by this fire, as well those that build gold and siluer, as the other: but all shall not passe through Purgatorie, by their owne confession. They are driuen to this shift, to graunt, that vers. 13. the fire is taken in one sense, namely, for the sentence and iudgement of God, and vers. 15. in another, that is, for the flames of Purgatorie. But who seeth not how absurd a thing this is, that in an allegorie the same word, and in the same place, should be so diuersly taken?

Thirdly, The day shall reueale it, that is, sayth Bellarmine, the day of the Lord at the comming of Christ: the Rhemists vnderstand the particular day of eueryevery mans death; so well they agree together. But it is apparant, that this is the meaning, that the day, that is, the time shall declare it: for God hath appoynted a time to examine eueryevery mans doctrine by fire: which is nothing els but the iudgement of God by the fire of his word, whereby eueryevery man, in the day of his calling and conuersion, shall knowe whether he hath preached aright or not: Fulk.

The Protestants.

THat there is no such place of Purgatorie after this life, but that here onelyonly is the place of repentance, and to be reconciled vntounto God: and that the soules departed are presently either receiued vp to heauen, or thrust downe to hell: thus it is proued out of the scriptures.

Argum. 1. The scripture maketh but two kinds of works, either good or euill, Ecclesiastes 12.14. But two sorts of men, he that beleeueth shall be saued, he that beleeueth not, shall be condemned. Mark. 16.16. But two places, heauen and hell: Math. 25. Christ hath but two flockes, one of sheepe at the right hand, another of goates at the left: and he saith to the one, Come ye blessed: p. 309to the other, Goe ye cursed. There are but two sorts of men, therefore but two places: Ergo, no Purgatorie.

Bellarm. There shall be indeede at the comming of Christ but two places, heauen and hell: Purgatorie shall hauehave an end.

Ans. First, you say your selues that there shall be two infernall places for euer, Hell for the wicked, and a Limbus for infants that dye vnbaptized, and heauen that maketh three, and now you say there shall be but two. Secondly, there are but two places now, because there are but two sorts of men, for the beleeuers are alreadie passed frō death to life, Iohn 5.24. The vnbeleeuers are alreadie condemned, Iohn 3.18. Thirdly, Augustine consenteth with vsus, Non est vlli vllus medius locus, vt possit esse nisi cum diabolo, qui non est cum Christo: There is no middle or third place, but he must needes be with the diuell, that is not with Christ. De peccator. remiss. & merit. lib. 1. cap. 28. And againe, Tertium locum penitus ignoramus, imo nec esse in scripturis sanctis inuenimus: The third place beside heauen and hell, we are vtterly ignorant of, nay wee finde not in scripture that there is any.

Arg. 2. S. Paul saith, that eueryevery man shall receiue the works of his bodie, according to that which he hath done either good or euill, 2. Cor. 5.10. Therefore there is no place to cleanse and purge the soules of men after this life: for then they should not receiue according to the works done in their flesh.

Bellarmine sayth, that euen they whose sinnes are remitted after death, doe receiue nothing but that which was done in the flesh, for they deserued in their life time to be helped after death.

Ans. First, as for desert, we will shewe elsewhere, that it hath no place before God neither in this life, nor the life to come: for the scripture sayth, Blessed is he to whom the Lord imputeth no sinne: not who deserueth remission of sinnes, Rom. 4.6. Secondly, this deuised and friuolous distinction, doth not stand with the Apostles meaning: for he speaketh of things actually done in the flesh, not deserued to be done, and of the workes of the bodie, not of the soule, & of things perfectly done, not begun onelyonly or in choate: and he vseth it as a reason to perswade men, euen while they liue, to be accepted of God, vers. 9.11. But if there might be any such helpe after death, there needeth no such hast presently to be conuerted vntounto God.

Argum. 3. Apocal. 14.13. Blessed are the dead from henceforth that dye in the Lord, for they rest from their labours: Ergo, there is no Purgatorie: for all the godly departed are at rest.

Bellarm. First, it is not meant of all the godly, but onelyonly of Martyrs, which dye for the name of Christ.

Ans. As to liue in Christ Iesus, is a phrase of scripture, & signifieth to liue godly in Christ, 2. Timot. 3.12. so to dye in the Lord, signifieth to dye in the faith of Christ, 1. Thessal. 4.16. Therefore this place is vnderstood of all the godly.

Bellar. 2. This word (amodò) from henceforth, is not to be vnderstood straight after their death, but straight after the day of iudgement, thē they shalbe blessed.

p. 310Ans. First, by this reason none that are dead in Christ should be happie before that time. And yet by your owne confession, Martyrs are straightway receiued vp to heauen. Secondly, S. Iohn vseth this word elsewhere, to signifie from this time forward, as Iohn 1.51. Christ sayth to Nathanael, From henceforth you shall see heauen open.

Rhemist. Thirdly, it may be also vnderstood of the soules of Purgatorie, that are without danger of sinne and damnation, and are put in vnfallible securitie of their saluation, with vnspeakable comfort.

Ans. First, so the Saints liuing are blessed, being as well without feare of damnation, Rom. 8.1. and are assured of their saluation, Rom. 8.16. Secondly, I pray you what rest or comfort can they hauehave, that endure greater paine then any in this life? And how can their consciences be quieted, seeing their soules are so afflicted? for bodies they hauehave none, whatsoeuer they suffer is in soule: how then can ioy and paine, comfort and horror be together in the soule? Fulk. ibid.

THE SECOND PART, OF THE CIRCVMSTANces and other matters belonging to Purgatorie.

The Papists.

error 11 1. THey say, it is an article of faith, to beleeue that there is a Purgatorie, and that he, which beleeueth it not, is sure to goe to Hell, Bellarm. lib. 1. de purgatorio. cap. 11.

The Protestants.

WE hold, that it is not onelyonly an article belonging to the faith, but contrarie to it: and that though there were a Purgatorie, yet it should not be necessarie to saluation to beleeue it. First, because the scripture hath not determined it, which containeth all things necessarie to saluation. Secondly, the Greeke Church holdeth it not to this day: they confesse no Purgatorie, though they pray for the dead: it were a hard matter therfore to pronounce them damned. Thirdly, Augustine doubted of it: He sayth, that there should be some such place after death, non incredibile est, it is not incredible, & vtrum ita sit, quaeri potest, & aut inueniri aut latere fideles potest: whether it be so or not, it may be enquired, and it may either be safely found out, or remaine hid and vnknowne to the faithfull: Enchirid. 69. Augustine saith, A faithfull man may safely be ignorant of Purgatorie.

The Papists.

error 12 2. THey say, they onelyonly goe to Purgatorie, that dye in their veniall and light transgressions, or which hauehave their sinnes remitted, but not satisfied for the punishment, Bellarm. lib. 2. de Purgat. cap. 1.

The Protestants.

FIrst, we denye that any sinnes are of their owne nature veniall, as they affirme; for the wages of al sinne, without the merciemercy of God, is death, Ro. 6.23. p. 311Secondly, what equitie should there be in this, that veniall sinnes should be punished with the hellish fire of Purgatorie, that exceedeth al the afflictions of this life, yea and a longer time then any man liueth vponupon earth; for the Pope taketh vponupon him to pardon for thousands of yeeres: and yet mortall and deadly sinnes (as they call them) may be satisfied for here, where neither the penance can be so grieuous, nor so long? Thirdly, the sinne once remitted, there remaineth no punishment, Mark. 2.5. Christ saith to the sick of the palsie, Thy sinnes are forgiuen thee: and vers. 10. That ye may knowe that the Sonne of man hath authoritie on earth to forgiue sinnes, I say vntounto thee, arise, take vp thy bed and walke. The releasing him of the punishment of his bodie, was a signe that his sinnes also were forgiuen, and the sinne being remitted, the punishment also ceaseth. Wherefore who so leaueth the world without sinne, is no more guiltie of any punishment.

The Papists.

3. THe soules in Purgatorie doe neither sinne any more, neither can they merite. error 13 Ecclesiastes 9.5. The dead knowe nothing at all, vers. 10. there is neither worke, knowledge, nor wisedome in the graue, Bellarm. cap. 2.

The Protestants.

WE say, that if there were any such place as Purgatorie, the soules there tormented, must needes both increase in charitie and righteousnes, because the more they are purged the more pure they are, and the lesse drosse is in them: and being in vnspeakable torments, they cannot choose but tremble and feare, yea and also be disquieted in their soules, as the Saints were sometime in their afflictions here vponupon earth: and therefore cannot be without sinne: for feare hath painfulnes, as the Apostle saith, and he that feareth is not perfect in louelove, 1. Iohn 4.18. Ergo, a seruile or slauish feare is sinne. That place alleadged doth not onelyonly take away meriting or working from the dead, but all knowledge and vnderstanding. And it is spoken in the person of the Epicure and sensuall man, that thinketh that the dead knowe nothing.

The Papists.

4. THey affirme, that the soules in Purgatorie are certaine of their saluation in error 14 the midst of their torments: for eueryevery soule departed, straight after death receiueth sentence of life or death, Bellarm. cap. 4.

The Protestants.

Ans. FIrst, that eueryevery soule is iudged presently after death, we grant: and it maketh strongly against your Purgatorie: for the sentence giuen is either of death or life: and the sentence being giuen is accordingly executed: so p. 310duplicate page p. 311duplicate page p. 312that they which receiue sentence of life goe presently to heauen, the other to hell. For to what purpose els should the sentence be giuen, if it be not straightwaies in force? So S. Paul saith, that they which looke to be clothed with their house from heauen, shall not be left naked or vnclothed, 2. Cor. 5.2, 3, 4. But if some soules ordained to life eternall, should pause a while in Purgatorie, being vnclothed of their flesh, they should be left altogether naked, hauing not yet receiued their clothing from heauen. Secondly, where there is securitie of saluation, there is the greatest comfort & ioy that can be: how then can the soules in Purgatorie be so grieuouslie tormented, which cannot be els where then in their conscience? for as for the whipping, scalding, freezing of soules in Purgatorie, they are but old wiues fables: the ioy then of the soule is in the conscience, so is the sorowe: how then can both these be matched in the soule together, to hauehave vnspeakable ioy, as also to feele most horrible paine?

5 In these poynts alreadie set downe, our aduersaries we see are bold to define certainly of Purgatorie: but there are as many poynts, and somewhat more, which they leaue in doubt and vncertaine. First, where Purgatorie should bee: Bellarmine gesseth it is in the bowels of the earth next to hell, cap. 6. so doe the Rhemists, Luk. 16. sect. 8. But they doe not all agree, neither hath their Church defined it. Secondly, they cannot tell how many yeeres Purgatorie endureth, whether an hundred, or two hundred, or thousands of yeeres. Thirdly, they can not tell certainly whether it be materiall fire which burneth in Purgatorie, but they say it is probable. Fourthly, neither cā they shew how corporall fire should worke vponupon the soules in Purgatorie, being spirituall and incorporall, Bellarmine cap. 12. Fiftly, they are vncertaine whether the diuels or angels be the tormentors in Purgatorie, cap. 13. Sixtly, whether the paine of Purgatorie be at all time alike, or by little and little slaked toward the end, and whether it doe exceede all the paines and sorowes of this life, they yet remaine vncertaine, and are not able to determine, Bellarm. lib. 2. de purgat. cap. 14. Let vsus leaue them therefore with their vncertainties, and brainsicke phansies: for the vaine inuentions and imaginations of men hauehave no end, but are fitly by the Prophet cōpared to sparkles, that leape out thick out of the fire, but are soone extinguished: Walk, saith the Prophet,Isay. 50.11.Isa 50:11 in the light of your fire, and sparkes that you hauehave kindled: that is, as the sparkes giuegive but a dimme light for a man to walke by, he may stumble and grope about still for all that light: euen so, no maruaile if the Papists doe wander vp and downe in their imaginations, walking by the light and sparkles of their phantasticall and mathematicall fire of Purgatorie.

THE THIRD PART, WHETHER THE PRAIERS OF the liuing, or any other workes of theirs doe profite the dead.

The Papists.

Haeres. 15.THeir opinion is, that the praiers of the liuing are neither auailable for the Saints in heauen, for they neede them not, not for the damned in hell, for p. 313they cannot be helped, but onelyonly for the soules tormented in Purgatorie, who doe finde great ease, say they, by the praiers of the liuing, and therfore we ought to pray for them, Bellar. lib. 2. de purgator. cap. 15.18. Rhemist. annot. 2. Thessal. 2. sect. 19.

Argum. 1. Christ while he liued, profited the dead, for he raised to life the rulers daughter, Math. 9. the widdowes sonne, Luk. 7. and Lazarus, which were dead: therefore euen so the members of Christ ought one to helpe another, the liuing the dead, Bellarm. cap. 15.

Ans. First, is not here a strong argument, thinke you, Christ raised Lazarus and some others from death to life, Ergo, we ought to pray for the dead? for it followeth not, that vponupon the miraculous workes of Christ, we should build the ordinarie dueties of Christians: Augustine would hauehave told you that Christ is not to be imitated in such workes: Non hoc tibi dicit, non eris discipulus meus, nisi ambulaueris supra mare, aut nisi suscitaueris quatriduanum mortuum: He saith not vntounto thee, Thou shalt not be my disciple, vnlesse thou walke vponupon the sea, & raise one that hath been dead foure daies: But, Learne of me: for I am humble and meeke. Secondly, if prayer for the dead be vntounto vsus, as the raising of the dead was to Christ: then, as all the dead are to be praied for, so Christ should hauehave raised againe all that went then to Purgatorie, or els, by your conclusion, he failed in charitie, as we doe now, if we pray not for the dead, as you beare vsus in hand. Thirdly, though the Saints departed, and the faithfull liuing are members of the same bodie, and so are bound in louelove one to the other, yet it followeth not, that one should pray for the other. They with vsus, and we with them doe wish and long to see the redemption of the sonnes of God accomplished, Reuel. 6.10.22.20. But charitie bindeth vsus not one to pray for another, because we knowe not one the particular needes of another. Nay, to pray for any departed, is against the rule of charitie: for louelove beleeueth all things, and hopeth all things, 1. Corinthians 13.7. Wee ought to hope the best of the dead, that they are at rest: but in praying for them, wee presuppose they are in miserie, and so neede our prayers: therefore wee hope not the best of them, as charitie willeth vsus.

Argum. 2. Iohn 5. vers. 16. The Apostle sayth, There is a sinne vntounto death, for the which a man ought not to pray: that is, deadly sinne, wherein a man dyeth without repentance: but for other sinnes not vntounto death, whereof men repent themselues, it is lawfull to pray: Ergo, we may pray for those that are departed not in deadly sinne: for this place is properly to be vnderstood of praying or not praying for the dead: because so long as a man liueth he may be prayed for, because all sinnes are pardonable in this life, Rhemist. ibid.

Ans. First, a sinne vntounto death is not onelyonly finall impenitencie, but sinne also against the holy Ghost, such as was the sinne of Iudas, and of the Pharisees. Secondly, though we should vnderstand it of finall impenitencie, yet it is but a so…y argument, some of the dead ought not to be praied for: Ergo, the rest may, p. 314Thirdly, the text cannot be vnderstood of praying for the dead: for the text sayth not, If any man see that his brother hath sinned not vntounto death, but, If he see him sinning: but the dead doe neither sinne, nor are seene to sinne. Fourthly, whereas you say, that all sinnes are pardonable in this life, our Sauiour Christ saith contrary, that the sinne against the holy Ghost can neuer be forgiuen, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. Plura. apud. Fulk. ibid.

The Protestants.

TO pray for the dead, is a worke neither pleasing before God, because he hath no where commanded it, nor auailable for them that are departed, because they hauehave their iudgement alreadie. While we liue, let vsus one pray for another, but when we are gone, the praiers of the liuing helpe vsus not.

Argum. 1. The ground of this popish opinion of prayer for the dead, is their superstitious deuise of Purgatorie: for none els doe they hold it lawfull to pray for but for the soules onelyonly in Purgatorie. But there is no Purgatorie, as we hauehave shewed before, after this life: our purging is onelyonly in this life: Christ hath by him selfe purged our sinnes. Hebr. 1.3. Christ his bloud is the chiefe and onelyonly purgation of our sinnes: there are also other inferiour and ministeriall purgings, whereby that onelyonly soueraigne purging is made beneficiall, and applied vntounto vsus: as the inward operation and worke of the spirit is compared to fire, Math. 3.11. 1. Corinth. 3.13. There is also a purging fire of affliction compared by the Prophet to fullers sope, Malach. 3.3. There also shall be a third purging fire in the day of the Lord, 1. Pet. 3.7. when as the corruption and mortalitie of our bodies shall be purged away, and then shall our mortalitie put on immortalitie, 1. Corinth. 15.53. Other Purgatorie after this life we acknowledge none. Seeing then that there are no soules in Purgatorie, and for none els it is lawfull to pray but for the soules tormented in Purgatorie: it followeth, that we are to pray for none at all that are dead.

Argum. 2. No prayer is acceptable to God without faith. We must pray without wauering and doubting, Iames. 1.6. But so can we not pray for the dead: for we cannot tell in what case they are for whom we pray, whether they be in heauen, hell, or purgatorie, and therefore we cannot assure our selues that our prayers are heard, but must needes pray with great doubting and wauering of the mind: Ergo, such praiers are in vaine, Iames 1.7.

Argum. 3. Our praiers profite not the dead, because there is no place after this life for repentance or remission of sinnes: for this should be the end and intendment of our praier, that they might be released of their sinnes, and eased of their paine. There is no remission of sinnes after death, because there is no true repentance: repentance there is none, because there can be no amendment of life, which alwaies followeth repentance: for Iohn Baptist that was a preacher of repentance, bid not onelyonly the people to repent, but to bring forth fruites worthie repentance, Math. 3.2.8. So saith the Prophet Ezechiel, If the wicked p. 315will returne from his sinnes, and doe the thing that is lawfull, he shall liue and not dye, 18.21. There are two parts then of repentance, as Isay sayth, Cease to doe euill, learne to doe well, 1. Isay. 16.17. But there is no place of working out of the bodie: Ergo, then no repentance.

To this Augustine agreeth: Non est apud inferos poenitentia ad salutem proficiens, ecce nunc tempus est salutis, nunc tempus remissionis. In hac vita poenitentiae tantum patet libertas, post mortem nulla correctionis est licentia: De tempor. serm. 66. In hell, or among the dead, there is no repentance vntounto saluation: behold now is the time of saluation, the time of forgiuenes: In this life onelyonly hauehave men libertie to repent, after death there is no place for amendment. What is become now (I pray you) of your Purgatorie repentance? after this life there is no saluation to be had, because there is no remission of sinnes: no remission of sinnes, because there is no repentance: there is no repentance, because there is no amendement.

Rhemist. Our Sauiour saith, Math. 12.32. that blasphemie against the spirit shal neither be forgiuen in this world, nor the world to come: Ergo, some sinnes may be forgiuen in the world to come.

Ans. Mark expoundeth Mathew: He saith, It shall neuer be forgiuen, Mark. 3.29. So that not to be forgiuen either in this world or the world to come, is nothing els, but neuer to be forgiuen: for if it be not forgiuen in this life, it shall neuer be forgiuen.

Bellarm. Yea, but Mathew must expound Marke, because he setteth it downe more fully, and Marke doth but abridge the Gospell written by S. Matthew, De Purgat. lib. 1. cap. 4.

Ans. But why should not Mark rather expound Mathew, seeing he writ after him? and we vse to expound the former writers by the later, not contrariwise.

AN APPENDIX OR AN APPERTINENCE TO this part, concerning the burials and funerals of the dead.

THere are certaine poynts, wherein there is no great variance or dissension betweene vsus. First, we confesse, that it is meete and conuenient, that the bodies of Christians, being departed, should after a seemely and comely manner be brought to the graue: as Dauid commendeth the men of Iabesh Gilead, for burying the bodie of Saul, 2. Sam. 2.5. The brethren also tooke the bodie of Stephen & buried it, Act. 8.2. Secondly, it is not to be denied but that lamentatiō and sorow may be made for the dead, obseruing S. Pauls rule, that We mourne not as those that hauehave no hope, that is, excessiuely, 1. Thess. 4.13. where S. Paul doth not simply forbid Christians to sorow, but not as the Gentiles. The brethrē also made great lamentation for Stephen, Act. 8.2. Thirdly, we doe also graunt, that according to the diuers customes of coūtreys, it is not vnlawfull to vse some comely rites and ceremonies in the buriall of the dead; not for religion, but for orders sake: as among the Israelites, the mourners were wont to goe about in p. 316the streetes, Ecclesiast. 12.5. And Christ commended the woman in the Gospell, for anoynting of him against his buriall, Mark. 14.

But beside these poynts by vsus confessed, and acknowledged; there are other more waightie matters, as touching the order of funerals, wherein we worthily and iustly dissent from our aduersaries.

error 16 1 They doe attribute much to the places where men are buried, as in Churches, and Churchyards, but especially vnderunder the Altar, Rhemist. as the soules of the righteous doe rest in Christ, who is that altar, vnderunder the which the Apostle sawe the soules of Martyrs: so for the correspondence to the place in heauen, their bodies are commonly layd vnderunder the altar, where the sacrifice of the body of Christ is daylie offered, Annot. Apocalyps. 6. vers. 9.

Ans. The altar of the Crosse was the onelyonly place where the bodie of Christ was sacrificed: neither need it to be often offered in sacrifice, but it sufficed once onelyonly to hauehave been done, Heb. 9.25.27. And in the Communion, we acknowledge no sacrifice, but of praise and thanksgiuing. Heb. 13.15. It is kept onelyonly in remembrance of the death of Christ, 1. Cor. 11.25. And how should it be auaileable for the dead, seeing it profiteth not all the liuing, but onelyonly those that are present, which doe eate and drinke the holy elements of bread and wine in remembrance of the bodie and blood of Christ giuen and shed for them? So saith the scripture, Doe this, as oft as you doe it, in remembrance of me, 1. Cor. 11.25. The doers therefore, agents, and receiuers, hauehave the present benefite, not they which are absent: how then can the dead receiue any solace by it? It profiteth then not a whit to be layd in Churches, or Churchyards, or other hallowed places, as they call them: for all places are alike: neither helpeth it the dead to be buried in one place more then another: for God shall command the sea, and all other places to giuegive vp their dead, Apocalyps. 20. The very heathen did confesse as much: one sayth, It skilleth not, humíne, an sublimè putrescam: whether I rot vnderunder,Theodor. or aboue the ground. And another thus writeth, Coelo tegitur, qui non habet vrnam: Lucan.Heauen is a couering to him that hath no other coffin. It were a foule shame then for Christians, to exceede the very Gentiles in their superstitious conceits. Augustine sayth, Si aliquid prodest impio sepultura preciosa, oberit pio vilis, aut nulla: De cura pro mortuis cap. 3.If sumptuous funerals profite the wicked, then homely or no burials doe hurt the godly. Therefore as it helpeth not a wicked man to be buried in one place, more then another, so it doth not hinder or hurt the godly and righteous man.

2 We condemne also their superstitious ceremonies which they vse at their error 17 funerals, as the burning of Tapers, which signifieth, say they, that the soules of the dead are aliue, Bellarm. de purgator. lib. 2. cap. 19.

Ans. First, this superstitious vse of setting vp candles, was directly forbidden in the Elibertine Councel, Canon. 34. Of the like sort also were other superstitious vsages, as the going about of the belman to will the people to pray for their soules, the ringing or iangling of bels to bring their soules to heauen, with queere songs and other melodie to commit the bodies to the ground, and commending p. 317their soules to the protection of Saints. We denie not, but comely and decent orders, voyde of superstition, may be vsed, according to the fashion of the countrey: as Iacobs bodie was embaulmed after the manner of the Egyptians, Genes. 50.2. At the buriall of their Kings, the Israelites vsed to burne odors, Iere. 34.5. The Iewes manner was to wash the bodies of the dead, to winde it vp in a linnen cloth, and burie it with spices and odors: So our Sauiours bodie was buried after the manner of the Iewes, Iohn 19.40. We reade also that Ioseph was put into a coffin or chest, Genes. 50.26. Of these and the like customes, Augustine giueth a rule, writing vponupon those words in the Gospell, Iohn 19.40. As it was the manner of the Iewes to burie: Non mihi videtur Euangelista sic frustra dicere voluisse: ita quippe admonuit, in huiusmodi officijs, quae mortuis exhibentur, morem cuius que gentis esse seruandum: in Iohann. tract. 120. Me thinketh the Euangelist sayd not thus without cause: hereby letting vsus to vnderstand, that in performing such dueties of buriall to the dead, the manner and custome of eueryevery countrey is to be kept.

The Iewes also had a custome, with some companie or frequencie of people, to bring their dead to the ground, Eccle. 12.5. And in the while, to vse some admonition to the people concerning death and mortalitie which came in by sinne, and of the wrath and merciemercy of God. Syrus. interp. in Mark. 14.3. Neither doe we see, why it is not lawfull now among Christians, at funerals and burials, to hauehave some godly sermon and exhortation, to put the people in mind of their end, and to comfort them with the hope of the resurrection, as also to giuegive God thankes, for those his faithfull seruants, that did glorifie him by their life, and by their godly departure. This seemeth also to hauehave been the commendable custome of the Church in ancient time: as Augustine writeth thus, Exposit. in Psal. 103. part. 1. Pauca nos cogit dicere temporis angustia, quod & nouit charitas vestra debere vos exequijs fidelis corporis solenne obsequium. The shortnes of the time causeth me to be briefe, and you know, that we are to performe a solemne dutie to the bodie of our faithfull brother. The sermon seemeth to hauehave been made at some funerall. The Iewes also, the buriall being ended, did comfort those that mourned, and eate and dranke with them, and gaue them the cup of consolation, Ierem. 16.7. Iohn 11.31. Both which customes may be kept and retained without any superstition. But other customes and ceremonies, that doe sauour of impietie, and doe any way implye prayer or commendation of the soules of the dead, ought to be left and abolished.

3 Another abuse in popish funerals, is their superstitious and often remembrance of the dead: for they hauehave their weekes mind for the dead the seuenth error 18 day, nay their halfe weekes mind the third day, their moneths mind the thirtith day: and beside, their anniuersarie or yeeres minde. I pray you what neede all this? Where doe they finde, that wee should mourne for the dead a monethmonth, thirtie dayes together, much lesse a whole yeere? Ioseph mourned but seuen dayes for his father, Genesis 50.10. So did the Gileadites for Saul, 1. Samuel 31.13. The Egyptians in deede mourned threescore and tenne p. 318daies, when Ioseph mourned but seuen: that we may see a manifest difference betweene the moderate mourning of the faithful, and the excessiue lamentation of infidels. But the popish yeeres mindes doe farre exceede the Egyptians stinted mourning: there being fiue times 70. daies in a yeere. Yet yeerely stipends, erected for weekely, monethly, quarterly, or yeerely sermons we mislike not: being ordained for the instruction of the people, without any relation to the soules of the dead, otherwise, then to giuegive God thankes for them, and those good things which the Lord wrought by them.

error 19 4 They doe greatly erre and are deceiued, in holding it to be a meritorious worke, which is performed in the buriall of the dead: alleadging to this purpose that place, 2. Sam. 2.5. where Dauid sent messengers to the men of Iabesh Gilead, saying, Blessed are ye of the Lord, that you hauehave shewed such kindnes vntounto your Lord Saul and hauehave buried him: therefore now the Lord shewe merciemercy and truth vntounto you, Bellarm. cap. 19.

Answere. There can be no such conclusion gathered out of these words: The Lord will shewe merciemercy, according to his truth and promise, to those that are mercifull: Ergo, it is meritorious to be mercifull: for here the reward dependeth of Gods promise and truth, not vponupon the worthines of the worke: Indeed Dauid saith, as it followeth in that place, I will recompence this benefite, because you hauehave done this thing. They might deserue kindnes at the hands of Dauid, because one good turne requireth another: but before the Lord there is no merite or desert. Secondly, to burie the dead is a worke of charitie, and therefore commanded, as all other dueties of charitie are. The things then commanded, we doe of duetie, we are bound to doe them: Ergo, they are not meritorious: So saith our Sauiour Christ, Doth the master thanke his seruant for doing that which he was commanded? I trow not, Luk. 17.9.

error 20 5 In their funerals and suffrages for the dead, they doe make great difference betweene the rich and the poore: for they say, it is possible that so many prayers and suffrages may bee made at once for the dead, that their soules may at once be deliuered out of Purgatorie, Et ideo in hoc solo casu melior est conditio diuitis, quàm pauperis, quia habet vnde suffragia fiant pro ipso. And therefore in this case onelyonly the estate of the rich is better then the poore, because he hath wherewithall suffrages should be made: that is, able to giuegive great legacies, and bequests to that end: Albert, mag. de officio miss. tract. 3. Againe, they hauehave greater respect vntounto the Pope departed, then any other: for the first day there must be 200. Masses read for his soule, and for nine daies after an 100. Masses eueryevery day, Tilemann, de primat pontif. error 86.

Ans. Where doe they reade in all the scriptures, that the rich in matters of the soule should be preferred before the poore? nay, the scripture saith plainly, that God is no accepter of persons, Act. 10.34. And S. Iames saith, We ought not to regard a rich man that weareth goodly apparell, hauing a gold ring, before a poore man in vile apparell: 2. vers. 2. Where also doe they learne to pray for p. 319none but for those, for whom they are hired to pray? And if praier be a worke of charitie, and if by their praiers they can deliuer mens soules out of Purgatorie, why doe they not extend their charitie to all in praying for them?

What if the rich Glutton, and poore Lazarus were aliue now, or these popish Masse-mongers had liued then: would they hauehave been bought for money to hauehave prayed for the rich mans soule, and let Lazarus alone? It is like they would. But surely all their Masses should neither hauehave profited the one: nor the want of them hauehave hindered the other. Marke, I pray you, what Augustine saith: Praeclaras exequias in conspectu hominum purpurato illi diuiti turba exhibuit famulorum: De cura pro mort. cap. 9.sed multò clariores in conspectu domini vlceroso illi pauperi ministerium praebuit angelorum: A goodly funerall did the friends and seruants make for the rich man arayed in skarlet in the sight of the world: but a more blessed buriall had the poore man in the sight of God, by the ministerie of the angels. Therefore there is no respect of persons to be had among the dead: neither hauehave the rich any greater priuiledge for the multitude of suffrages, then the poore that wanteth them: for no doubt the rich mans executors spared for no cost; Masses, Trentals, Diriges they had enough, if they were then to be had: yet for all this stirre his soule went to Hell, and Lazarus soule was by the angels caried to heauen, that had none of this geere.

6. Lastly, if there were no other thing to be misliked in their Funerals, this were sufficient to condemne them as abominable; that they thinke, their singing, error 21 chaunting, ringing, giuing of dole and almes to the poore, and all other their superstitious customes doe helpe and profite the dead: Bellarm. ibid.

Augustine giueth two reasons of this duetie to be shewed in the burying of the dead. First, Corpori humando quicquid impenditur, non est praesidium salutis, sed humanitatis officium. What duetie is performed in enterring the bodie, is an officious worke of humanitie, not any reliefe for the health of the soule. Secondly, sayth he, Corpori mortuo, sed tamen resurrecturo, impensum huiusmodi officium, est quodammodo eiusdem fidei testimonium: De cura pro mortuis epilog.This Christian duetie bestowed in burying the dead bodies, which shall notwithstanding rise againe, is a liuely testimonie in vsus of the same faith. That is, we doe carefully commit the bodies of Christians to the ground, knowing that they are not lost, but shall rise againe: but as for the dead themselues, they receiue no benefite at all. Curatio funeris, pompae exequiarum, viuorum sunt solatia magis, quàm subsidia mortuorum: This great prouision for funerals, this great pompe of burials,De cura pro mortuis cap. 2. they are comforts for the liuing, not helpes to the dead. Impleant ergo homines ista erga suos postremi muneris officia, & sui leuamenta moeroris: Let men therefore performe this last duetie to their friends, which is also a great lightening of their griefe: Ergo, funerals profite not the dead, but comfort the liuing: yea, it is called the last duetie, which is performed at burials: If it be the last, then there is no duetie afterward to be done: therefore prayers also are superfluous: for if it were needfull to pray for the dead, then the last duetie should not be in the p. 320buriall, another comming afterward. And thus much also concerning the manner and order of funerals.

THE SECOND PART OF THIS CONTROuersie, of the Saints departed that are in ioye and blisse.

THis controuersie standeth of these seuerall questions.

1. Of the blessed estate of the Saints in heauen, and of the Canonizing of them vponupon earth.

2. Of the adoration of Saints: First, whether they be to be adored or not, and whether it be lawfull to sweare by them. Secondly, of the diuers kinds of worship. Thirdly, of the worship of Saints vponupon earth.

3. Of the inuocation of Saints: whether they pray for vsus and vnderstand our praiers.

4. Of the adoration, translation, keeping of reliques, and of the miracles wrought by them.

5. Of Images, and the signe of the Crosse, & other matters thereto belonging more particularly handled.

6 Of Churches: the forme, vse, ornaments, dedication of them, and such like.

7 Of Pilgrimages and Processions.

8 Of holy and festiuall daies, the Lords day, Saints daies, and of Lent.

9 Of the Virgin Mary, her conception, vowes, assumption, worship, merites. Of these now in order.