Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 8 – Section 9
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
The iudgement of God in cauſing ſik a dimnes and darkneſſe to fall vponupon your eies, it is to be wondered at.It is an wonder that Maiſter Iohn will refer any thing to the written word, ſeing that he and his hes no warrant that the ſame is the word of God but by the authoritie of the Romane or Papiſts Kirk. For vnderſtand there was no Kirk worthie of credite, immediatly before Luther, but that Kirk.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
You wonder that I refer any thing to the Scripture. But what a wonder is this that ye are ſo far blinded of God that you think that a wonder in me whilk Abraham hes done, Luc. 16 29. Ioh, 5 39. Act. 26.22. Rom. 12. & 6.26 2. Tim. 3 16 2 Pet, 1, 19 Apoc 1.3. cap. vltwhilk the Prophets hes done, whilk our Sauiour and his Apoſtles hes done, and whilk the fathers hes done (for all theſe hauehave referred the infallible teſtimonie and deciſion of the wil of God concerning his worſhip vntounto the Scriptures,) yea whilk your ſelfe alſo hes done, for ye make it a witnes. But what hes moued you to think this a wonder in me, whilk ſo many and your ſelfe alſo hes done before me? Becauſe (ſay ye) that he and his (that is, our Kirk) hes no warrant that it is the word of God, but by the authoritie of the Romane or Papiſt Rirk. I grant in deed (Maiſter Gilbert) that you and your Kirk are plunged in this blindnes and miſerie that all the warrant that you hauehave not only of the Scriptures them ſelues, that they are inſpired of God, but alſo of al your doctrine and religion is the teſtimony of your Romane Kirk, that is, Bellarm de ſacr. lib 2. cap. 25 Lib. 1. contra Whitak. de authoritate ſcrip. cap 10of your Pope and Cleargie (for ſo ye interprete the Kirk) ſo Bellarmine grants that all the certaintie of all doctrine depends vponupon the authoritie of the preſent Kirk (meaning the Pope and his Cleargie) and Stapleton ſaies that it is no abſurd thing not to beleeue God but for the teſtimony of the Kirk. Pigius ſaies, that it is not needefull to beleeue all that Matthew and Iohn write in their Goſpels to be true, becauſe that they might faile in memory & lie as al men may doe. Eccleſiaſt. hierarch. lib. 1. cap. 2. And Hermanus ſaies that the Scripture would be of no more authoritie then the fables of Aeſope were not the teſtimony of the Kirk. And ſo blind and miſerable muſt you be that hangs the certaintie of all religion, and of man his ſaluation vponupon ſo ſmall a threed as the teſtimony of your Popes and Cleargie. What peace in conſcience can any man hauehave that profeſſes your religion, whilk teaches that the certaintie and warrant of all the doctrine in the Scripture, and the Scripture it ſelfe, that they are of God, but the teſtimony of your Popes and Clergie? What is it to expone the certaintie of the Lords ſcripture and of al religion comprehended in the ſame, to the mocking & deriſion of the wicked, if this be not? Yea, is not this to prefer the voice and authoritie of your Popes and Cleargie to the voyce of God him ſelfe? For what is the teſtimony of your Kirk, but the teſtimony of men? And is not the ſcripture the teſtimony and voyce of God him ſelfe? Do ye not therefore lift vp the authoritie of your Kirk, that is, your Popes and Clergie aboue the authoritie of God in his word whilk as you ſay, that there is no other warrant of the Diuinitie of the ſcripture, but only the teſtimony of your Kirk? But God be thanked in Chriſt Ieſus who hes deliuered vsus from this blindnes: for we hauehave other warrants (Maiſter Gilbert) whereupon the certaintie of our ſaluation and the Diuinitie of the ſcripture depends, nor by the teſtimony of the true Kirk much les the teſtimonye of your Kirk whilk is Antichriſtian, and giuen ouer of God to beleeue lies, and ſo worthie of no credite. But how proue ye it? Ye ſay there was no other Kirk immediately before Luther, but that of yours; vvhilk was worthie of credite. Wherevnto I anſwer: firſt that is falſe: for there was a true Kirk immediately before him whilk ye perſecuted, as I hauehave proued els where. Next I ſay, your argumnt will not follow: there was no other Kirk immediately before him &c. Ergo, we hauehave no other warrant that the ſcripture is the written word of God. For we hauehave alſo the teſtimony of the Kirk of the Iewes concerning the olde Teſtament, and of the primitiue Kirk in all ages, concerning both the olde and new Teſtament, whilk are not only other warrants nor the teſtimonies of your Romane Kirk, but alſo worthie of more credite. Next, I ſay we hauehave many more principall and more effectuall warrants that the ſcripture is of God, nor the teſtimony of the Kirk, either paſt or preſent: as firſt the teſtimony of the holy Ghoſt, crying, teſtifying, and ſealing vp in all conſciences of the godly, not only the trueth of the doctrine contained in them, but alſo the diuinitie of the ſcripture, Lib. 1. de authorit ſcrip, cap. 1.6.7 1, Ioh, 5, 6whilk Stapleton denies not, and therefore the ſcripture ſayes that the ſpirit (that is the holy Ghoſt) bears witnes that the ſpirit (that it is the doctrine) is truth.
Secondly, the teſtimony of the Scripture it ſelf warranding and teſtifying of it ſelfe, the whole Scripture is inſpired of God. The olde Teſtament warranted both by the teſtimony of the ſelfe, 2. Timoth. 3the hiſtories and propheſies teſtifying of the books of Moſes, and alſo by the teſtimonye of the new Teſtament both in a)1 Pet. 1, 19. Luc, 24, 44. Luc, 16, 19. Ioh 5.39generall, and alſo in b)Matth, 5, Math 19.7. & cap, 22 Ioh, 3, 14particular as the books of Moſes and the hiſtorical bookes, as the hiſtory of the Queene of c)Matth. 12Saba, and of the widdow d)Luc, 4of Sarepta, and of the e)Act, 2 Act, 13Pſalmes, in ſundrie places, and of ſundrie of the bookes of the old f)Heb…. 11Teſtament, and g)Matth. 1Ruth alſo. And out of Eſay, Ezechiell, and Ieremie, manie teſtimonies are cited, and out of the bookes of the ſmal h)Act, 7, 42prophets. And ſik like the new Teſtament hes the confirmation of it out of the olde Teſtament: for whatſumeuer thing were prophecied in the olde Teſtament concerning the Meſſias are fulfilled in the new Teſtament, ſo if the old Teſtament hes authoritie, the new Teſtamēt alſo hes authoritie. And ſik like i)2. Pet, 3, 16Peter by his teſtimonie confirmes the Epiſtles of Paull to be the written worde of God. Thirdly, the maieſtie of the doctrine whilk ſhines in it, the ſimplicitie, puritie, and heauenlynes of the ſpeache therein, whilk is not to be found in any other writings whatſoeuer, the ancientnes and antiquitie of them, as the bookes of Moſes far ancienter then any other writing. 1. Kings 13 Pſal 44The accōpliſhment of the prophecies and oracles in them as they were fore-told, their miracles and wonders whereof they teſtifie. The teſtimonies of the holie Martyres that ſhed their blood in the defenſe of the trueth of them, thei… wonderfull preſeruation notwithſtanding of the rage and crueltie of ſundrie tyrants who ſought them out moſt diligētly to hauehave deſtroyed them, all teſtifying of the diuinitie of the holie Scripture. So then to conclude this, ſeing we hauehave the teſtimonie of Gods Spirit, ſealing vp the trueth of them in our hearts, aad the teſtimony of the ſcripture it ſelf, teſtifying of the ſelf ſo many manner of waies: and ſundrie other arguments out of the ſcripture it ſelfe: and the teſtimony of the Kirk in all ages, all warranting to vsus the diuinitie of the holy ſcripture, I cannot but wonder at the vnſearchable iudgment of God, in blinding you ſo far, that ye hauehave ſet it down in writ, that we hauehave no other warrand of the holy ſcripture but the authoritie of your Kirk.
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
And albeit heir it were not neceſſarie to me to proue any heades of our Religion by the worde of God, becauſe Maiſter Iohn hes promiſed to improue the ſame by the word, whilk he is no way able to performe: yet to ſatisfie the Chriſtian Reader, and that he may know that the word of God is onlie on our ſide and with vsus, ſo that their expoſition and notes be taken from the ſame: I will ſet downe (godwilling) ſome heads for examples cauſe, that that ſame doctrine whilk we teach and practiſe, is the ſame that our Sauiour and his Apoſtles preached before, and is written in the ſame that he calles the touchſtone.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
Howſoeuer ye ſay this (Maiſter Gilbert) that that doctrine whilk ye teach and practiſe in your Kirk, is that ſame whilk our Sauiour and his Apoſtles teached before, and is written in the Scripture, yet in very trueth there is nothing leſſe in your conſcience. For if you and your Romaine Kirk were ſo perſwaded, wherefore then ſhould ye hauehave declined to hauehave it tried by the ſame? and wherefore hes ſome of your owne chiefe pillers and defenders of your Romane religion who knowes the certaintie of the ſame, wherefore (I ſay) would they hauehave proclaimed it by write vntounto the worlde, that the moſt part and the principall heads of their religion, are vnwritten traditions, whilk hes neither their originall, beginning, nor authoritie in the Scripture, nor cannot be defended by the ſame? And wherefore would your Romane kirk hauehave heapt vp ſo many fals accuſations and blaſphemies againſt the ſame? and wherefore laſt of all would ye hauehave ſet vp your Pope & his biſhops to be ſupreame and ſoueraigne iudge ouer the ſame, as you doe? But this you doe, becauſe you knowe that if ye reiected the Scripture as far in worde, as ye do in deed, the conſciences of the poore people would at the laſt withdrawe themſelues from vnderunder your tyranny, and would goe out of your fellowſhip for the ſafety of their ſoules: ſo vnderunder the cloak and pretence of the Scripture, ye keepe them in your communion. And ſurelie, were not for this cauſe onlie, you would regarde no more of the teſtimonie of the Scripture, nor of the testimony of the fables of Aeſope. For, Bellarm. de ſacr. lib. 2 cap. 25 Stapl. lib 1. cont. Whitaker. ca, 10the chief authoritie and all the ſuretie and certainty of all Religion with you, as Bellarmine and Stapleton confeſſes, is (not the teſtimony of the Scripture) but the authoritie of your owne Kirk. So I aſſure thee, reader, it is but for a ſhew that they bring forth the Scripture to proue the heads of their religion. Let the matter therfore be tried betwixt vsus by theſe examples whilk ye ſet downe heere.