Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 25 – Section 27
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
There is much promiſed heir, but nothing done, and it is ane thing impoſſible to him to doe. For why the difference chiefly that the Proteſtants d ffers from vsus is in denying, abhorring, or deteſting, as may be ſene in their confeſſion of faith, whilk they compell all men to ſweare and ſubſcriue. As we deteſt and refuſe the vſurped authoritie of that Romane Antichriſt, vponupon the Scriptures of God, vponupon the Kirk, the ciuill Magiſtrate, &c. except ſik things were expreſly contained in the word of God.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
As for my promiſe & performance, I anſvvered to that be fore, & whether that be a thing vnpoſsible to me or not, let this my anſwere be a trial thereof. You are bold ynough indeed in affirming it to be impoſsible: but what hauehave ye for you? You ſay, becauſe the differēce chiefly that vve differ frō you, is in denying and abhorring. What a reaſon is this? Can we not prooue our religion out of the Scripture, becauſe we deny yours whilk is contrarie to the ſame? Is it impoſsible to proue the trueth, becauſe falſet is denied and abhorred. What new Logick or Diuinitie is this, Maiſter Gilbert? I would neuer hauehave beleeued that ye had bene ſik an vnskilful reaſoner, if your ſelf had not bewraied the ſame. And certainlie your Kirk is not beholding to you: for if your reaſon holde forth, it vvill followe that it is impoſsible to you, or any man elſe to prooue the heades of your Religion by the Scripture: for in your confeſsion of faith, and forme of abiuration ſet downe by the Monkes of Burdeaux, anno 1585. there they deny and abhors the Proteſtants and their doctrine, and compels all men who deſires the fellovvſhip of the Romane Kirk, and their abſolution, to main-ſvveare, renounce, and ſubſcriue the ſame. But I trowe your Kirk will not allovve this manner of reaſoning of yours. And vvheras you ſay that the chiefe difference vvherein vve differ from you is in denying and abhoring &c. of your Religion. I aske you, doth not our Religion differ as far from yours, as yours does from vsus? This you cannot deny. For are not two contraries equallie different one from another? Doth not light differ as far from darkneſſe, vvhite from black, Bellarm. in his preface before the controuerſies & in his preface de ſummo Pontific eChriſt from Antichriſt, as darknes from light, black from vvhite, and Antichriſt from Chriſt? And are not yours and our religions cō trarie one to another? But your ſelfe will not deny, and Bellarmine confeſſes that you differ from vsus in the maine and ſubſtantiall points of religion: therefore of neceſsitie vvee muſt alſo differ from you in the maine & ſubſtantiall points of our religion. And ſo the chief difference wherein vve differ from you, is not in denying & abhorring, but in the maine and fundamentall groundes of our Religion. Othervviſe it ſhall follovve that the chief difference that ye differ from vsus, is in denying & abhorring of our Religion, vvhilk I think your Kirk will not digeſt. Whereas you ſay that this may be ſeene by our confeſsion of faith: Our confeſsion hes not onlie the deteſting and denying of your abhominable errors in generall & particular: but alſo the confeſsion of our faith in generall: referring the particular heades thereof to that confeſsion whilk is ratified and eſtabliſhed by act of Parliament. And ſo heir Maiſter Gilberts vntruth and calumnie of our confeſsion may be ſeene. As for this forme of exacting of an oth and ſubſcription to Religion, The example of Moſes. Deut. 29.10. and of Ioſua 24.25 Iehoiada the hie preiſt. 2. Reg. 11.17. Ioſia. 2. of the Kings. 23 3. Aſa. 2. Chro. 15.12. And of the people returning from the captiu…tie of Babell with Nehemias. Nehem 10.if you finde fault with it, you not onelyonly gaineſay the Scriptures of God, impaires Princes lavvfull authoritie, & the Kirk of their iuriſdiction and lawfull povver: but alſo blots your ovvne Kirk, vvho, as may be ſeene in that confeſsion of faith and forme of abiuration ſet out by the Monkes of Bourdeaux, vvhereof vve ſpake before, does the ſame. As for this exception whilk ye put in heir, I anſwered to it before.
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
For if this be a true ground of theirs, that nothing ought to be done or beleeued, but ſik things as are expreſly contained in the word of God: but their generall confeſſion, or their negatiue faith is not expreſly contained in the word of God: therefore it ought not to be done, nor beleeued.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
As for this ground whilk ye alledge to be ours: it appeares certainlie, Maiſter Gilbert, that as ye ſaide of me, eyther ye know not our grounds, or elſe ye wilfullie invert them for your own aduantage. For our ground is, that nothing ought to be done or beleeued in Religion, but that whilk may bee warranted by the teſtimonie of the ſcripture, either in words & ſenſe together, or elſe by a neceſſary collection out of the ſame. The whilk with Nazianzene vve ſay, are of the ſame trueth and authoritie with the firſt. And according to this ſenſe vve ſay that all the heades of our Religion, aſvvell negatiue as affirmatiue, are expreſly contained in the ſcripture, and ſo ought both to be beleeued and practiſed. Theſe are but ſilly ſhifts, Maiſter Gilbert, whilk ye bring to diſcredite the trueth of our religion. You knew full well the blindneſſe and ſimpleneſſe of the people in this countrie: and therefore you regarded not how ſillie and ſimple your reaſons were.
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
That their Faith is contained in the word of God, ſo far as it differs from ours, he will neuer be able to proue, neither by word nor write. And if hee will cauſe our kings Maieſtie to ſuſpend his actes againſt vsus, that we may be as free to ſpeake our minde as he: he (a) ſhall hauehave a proofe heereof. But why refuſed you to giuegive a profe of this when I did offer it vntounto you, before your owne familiars, where you might hauehave ſpoken as freelie as I, ſo theſe ar but words M. Gilbert and braggs onlie.If not, let him proue the ſame by write, and he ſhall hauehave an anſwere by Gods grace. As for his life we deſire not the ſame, but rather his conuerſion to the trueth.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
As for our abilitie to proue the trueth of our doctrine, I anſwered it before: iudge thou Chriſtian reader of the ſame, by this my anſwere. As for the ſuſpending of his Maieſties acts againſt you, that is not in our hands: and for all the good ye could doe, you hauehave but too much libertie. And if you ſpeake no better for your religion, nor ye hauehave done elſe in this your anſwere, your Kirk will be but little beholden to you for it. And certainlie if you will binde and obliſhe your ſelfe to face your owne cauſe, and defend your religion by word, I hope that licence of a ſafe paſſage & conduct would be graunted to you by his Maieſtie, to let you ſpeak for your ſelfe, what ye hauehave for you for the defence of it, for that ſpace without any danger to your perſon, and that ſurer, and with greater ſafetie nor Iohn Hus had, who notwithſtanding of his ſafe conduct, yet was brunt. And whereas you promiſe an anſwere, doe what you can, Maiſter Gilbert, for now it is time to pleade for your Baal. And let your anſwere be more firme nor this, or elſe ye will loſe more then ye will winne by it. That you deſire not my life, I am beholdē to you (if ye ſpeak truth) conſidering the bloodie generation of your Romane Kirk, who theſe many yeares by paſt, hes ſpilt the blood of the Saints of God in ſik aboundance, that it any can tell the ſtarres of heauen, hee may number them whome your Kirk hes ſlaine for the teſtimonie of the word of God. And as for that whilk ye call conuerſion, it is auerſion from the truth, and the loſing of ſaluation: the whilk I hope ſhalbe dearer to me then a thouſand liues, ſuppoſe they were all included in one.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche.
Secondlie, I offer me to proue that there be verry few points of controuerſy betwixt the Romane Kirk and vsus, wherein we diſſent, but I ſhall get teſtimonies of ſundry Fathers of the firſt ſix hundreth yeares againſt them, & prouing the heades of Religion whilk we profeſſe. Let any man therefore let me downe any waightie point of controuerſie, one, or moe, and he ſhall hauehave the proofe of this.