Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 23 – Section 24
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
13. Our doctrine is, that Chriſt our Sauiour (according to the ſoule) deſcended to th… Hels, as we hauehave in our beliefe. And this was the doctrine of the …poſtles. Act. 2 24For Saint Peter ſayes, That God hes raiſed him vp, louſing the ſorrowes of Hell, according as it was impoſſible that he ſhould be held of it. And this he proues by the Pſalmes of Dauid, Beholde thou wilt not leaue my ſoule … hell (ſayes Dauid) nor giuegive thy holy one to ſee corruption. … 15.8 … 29.3 … 49 10This ſame is the doctrine of Saint Paule alſo: And that he aſcended, what is it but becauſe he deſcended alſo first into the inferior parts of the earth. He that deſcended, the ſame is he alſo whilk is aſcended aboue all the heauens, that he might furthfill all things. Ye ſee in theſe and all the reſt of our doctrine, wherein they diff…r from vsus, that the touchſtone beares witnes to vsus, and proues ours only to be the doctrine of Chriſt, and his Apoſtles, and not their denying thereof.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
Bellarmine graunts that we all aggree that Chriſt after a certaine manner deſcended into hell: but the whole controuerſie is of the ſenſe and meaning of it. We ſay, that he ſuffered the paines of hell in his ſoule vponupon the Croce, and laye vnderunder the bondage of death, and was held captiue in the graue, whilk in the Hebrewe is called SCH…OL (whilk ſignifieth ſometime Hell in the Scripture, and ſometime the graue) for the ſpace of three dayes: and in this ſenſe we graunt he deſcended …nto hell, and in this ſenſe it is taken in our beliefe. But your doctrine is, That he deſcended locallie vntounto Hell according to his ſoule, Bell…m … 4 de Chriſto cap. 16firſt to giuegive to the ſoules of the Fathers eſſentiall bleſſedneſſe: and to delyuer them out of that priſon, and bring them to heauen. And this we ſay is neither the meaning of that article of your beliefe, neither yet hes it ſo mekle as a ſillabe in the whole Scripture to warrand it. And as for the article it ſelf, Lib. 4 de Chriſto cap 6Bellarmine confeſſes that this article was not in the Creede with all Kirkes, as hee proues there by the teſtimonies of Irenaeus, Origen, Tertullian, and Auguſtine, who all exponed the Creede. And Auguſtine exponed it fiue times, and yet neuer mentions this article. And Ruffinus an auncient writer teſtifies, that this article was neither in the Creede of the Romane Kirk, nor of the Eaſt Kirks. And alſo it is not in the Nicene Creede, whilk was more nor 300. In his expoſition of the Creedeyeare after Chriſt. And Perkins a learned man affirmes, that three-ſcore Creedes of the moſt auncient councels, and Fathers wants this clauſe. Whereby it is moſt cleare that this article was not put in at that time, when the reſt of the articles were gathered together, but hes crept in ſince, and that more nor 300. yeare after the dayes of the Apoſtles. For Auguſtine liued in the 400. yeare, & the Nicene Creede was more then 300. yeare after Chriſt. And yet becauſe it hes continued of a long time, and hes beene receiued by the conſent of the Kirks of God, and does alſo carry with it a fit vnderſtanding and ſenſe as hath bene ſpoken. Therefore it is to be retained, but not in that ſenſe as ye expone it. For firſt if this locall diſcenſion of Chriſt according to his ſoule into hell were true, and that it were an article of our faith, as ye ſay, then the foure Euangeliſts, whilk are the ſworne pen-men of the hiſtorie of his death and reſurrection, …c. 1.3and eſpeciallie Luke, who (as he ſayes himſelfe) intended to make an exact narration of the ſame, who alſo did amplie ſet downe the ſame, with all the circumſtances thereof, they would not hauehave omitted it being a ſpeciall article of our faith, if your doctrine be true: Ioh 20.31ſeing the end of their writing, as Iohn ſayes was that we might beleeue, and by beleeuing hauehave eternall life. But they neuer mention it, as your ſelues cannot deny. Therefore it can not be that he locallie deſcended into hell. Secondlie, the Scripture makes it plaine that Chriſts ſoule was in Paradiſe at that time with the thiefe: …. …3.43for he ſayes vntounto him, This night ſhall thou be with me in Paradiſe: for this cannot be meaned of his godhead, for it is eueryevery-where: neither of his bodie, for it was in the graue. Seing therefore his ſoule was at that time in Paradiſe, it could not be in hell, except you will ſay that Paradiſe and hell are both one, whilk I trow ye will not ſay. Thirdlie, if the ſoules of the Fathers was not in hell, then Chriſt deſcended not thither: for ye ſay, aBellar. lib 4 de Chriſto cap. 16That he deſcended thither for that effect to delyuer them: but they were not in hell, but in heauen, whilk our Sauiour calles Abrahams boſome, where Lazarus was betwixt the whilk and hell the Scripture teſtifies there is a great gulfe: Luc. 16.2…therefore he deſcended not locallie into hell. Fourthlie, ſome of your owne learned Doctors hes ſeene this errour of yours, and hes gone from it, as Durandus by name, In 3. diſtinct. 22 ….who affirmes that Chriſts ſoule deſcended not to hell in ſubſtance, but in vertue, and proues it by reaſons. And laſt of all, you are at ſik variance amongſt your ſelues concerning this point, that ſome of you affirmes that Chriſts ſoule ſuffered paine in hell when it was there, as a)In … ….Caietano, and b)3. part qu…ſt 52 artic. 1 & 3Thomas of Aquine two great Papiſts: and yet c)… 3. …t …ct. 22 …Bonauenture and d)Bellarmine …b 4 de Chriſto cap 6Bellarmine affirmes the contrarie, that his ſoule was in the place of paine, and yet ſuffered no paine. Next Thomas of Aquine e)… queſt ….affirmes, that Chriſt deſcended only into that place of hel called Limbus Patrum, but Bellarmine ſayes, It is more probable that he went to all the partes of Hell: and this is the conſent whilk you Papiſts hes amongſt your ſelues, not only in this point, but almoſte in all the points of your doctrine. Nowe as to the places of Scripture whilk ye quote, they ſerue nothing to this purpoſe. For the 2. of the Acts, it ſpeakes of that bondage of the graue whilk kept him vnderunder vntill he roſe againe: and therefore the Greek word is foreign; whilk ſignifieth death, and not hell, as ye tranſlate it heir: and Peter ſayes, whome God raiſed vp. The Apoſtle ſpeakes then of that part of Chriſt whilk had falne and was raiſed vp: but it was the body only and not the ſoule whilk fell downe and was raiſed vp: therefore he ſpeakes of the ſorrowes of death whereby his bodie was kept in bondage, and not of anye locall deſcenſion of Chriſts ſoule. As for the places of the Pſalmes whilk ye quote heir, Peter brings them not in to proue this locall deſcenſion (as ye ſay) whereof he makes no mention: but to proue his reſurrection as he ſayes in the 31. verſe moſt plainly: He knowing this before, ſpeaking of Dauid, ſpake of the reſurrection of Chriſt, that his ſoule ſhould not remaine in graue, neither his fleſhe ſhoulde ſee corruption. So, if ye will beleeue the ſpirite of God in the Apoſtle interpreting theſe places, they ſpeake of the reſurrection of Chriſt, and not of the deliuering of the ſoule out of hell, for he was in Paradiſe, as he ſayes himſelfe: and it is the bodie that was raiſed, and not the ſoule. And the Hebrewe word is NEPHESCH, whilk not onelyonly ſignifieth the ſoule, but alſo the life, as Gen 37.21. Let vsus ſmite his ſoule, that is, take away his life. And it ſignifieth alſo the body of the dead wherin there was life, as Leuit. 21. ver. 1. and 11. And this worde hel is SCHEOL in Hebrew, whilk moſt vſuallie is taken in the Scripture for the graue. So then the meaning is this, The Lord will not leaue his Nepheſch, that is, the bodie wherein his life was in Scheol, that is, in the graue: whilk ſpeach is vſual in the Scripture. Now as to the other Pſalme 29.3. it is ſpoken properlie of Dauid, where hee thankes God who had ſaued his life from the handes of his enemies, whilk by a borrowed ſpeach frequented in the Scripture, is called the deliuery of his ſoule from the graue. As for the 4. of the Epheſians, Theſe lower parts of the earth is not hell, as ye expone it, but the earth it ſelf, whilk in reſpect of the world is the loweſt part: and ſo it is taken in the 139. Pſalme, ver. 15. where Dauid ſayes, Thou hes faſhioned me beneath in the lower parts of the earth, where heir it is not taken for hell, as you take it in that place of the Epheſians, otherwiſe you muſt ſay that Dauid vvas borne in hell vvhilk I trovv ye vvill not ſay. So heirby is meant then the loweſt and baſeſt degree of his humiliation. So novve to conclude this: neither in theſe points, Maiſter Gilbert, nor in any point of doctrine vvherein ye differ from vsus, is your doctrine aggreable to Chriſts doctrine and his Apoſtles, as hes bene (I hope) proued ſufficiently. You muſt therefore prouide you for better vveapons and armour, and ſtronger defences for the ouer-throvv of our doctrine, and vp-holde of yours, then ye hauehave done: othervviſe your ſhotts vvill be but as ſhotts of paper, & your Bulvvarks but of intempered morter, vvhilk ſodainly vvill ruſhe dovvn at the li…ht of the trueth of God. The Lord open your eyes to ſee the truth, & ſuffer you not to continue any longer, to cauſe the blinde go out of the vvay, as you hauehave done. Amen.
Maister Gilbert Browne.
14 I thought to hauehave put in heir alſo of Iuſtification, whilk is the greateſt head of controuerſie betwixt them and vsus: for they wil hauehave only Faith to juſtifie: into the whilk (only) they ſeclude all good works. But becauſe I thinke to ſet this downe afterwarde, I hauehave not put it heir.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
This commeth in afterward: therfore I refer the anſvvere of it to that place.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche.
And our Religion whilk we profeſſe, and all the particular heades of it, was inſtituted by Ieſus Chriſt and his Apoſtles, whilk I offer me alſo to proue either by word or write, againſt whatſomeuer that will pleade the contrarie. The whilk if I faile in, I wil be content to loſe my life therefore, by his grace.