Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 2
M. Gilbert Browne.
Firſt he titles his libell, Ane anſwere to ane obiection of the Romane Kirk, whereby they go about to deface the veritie of that onelyonly true Religion whilk we profeſſe.
God forbid that we (a)Ye teach not the doctrine of Ieſus Chriſt, therefore ye are not true Cath… lick….Catholicks, whom he calles the Romane Kirk, ſeing that we are the onlie defenders (b)The overthrowers of it & Impugners of it.of the trueth, as our predeceſſors the paſtors of the true Kirk was before vsus, ſuld go about to deface the trueth. But we go about to impugne all falſe doctrine repugnant to the trueth, as (c)Falſe for ye do not as they did.the halie fathers of the primitiue Kirk did before vsus, againſt the heretickes in their dayes, as Irenaus, Cypriane, Ambroſe, Augustine, Hierome, Baſile, Gregorie, Chryſoſtome, with the reſt of the true paſtors of the Kirk. And ſeing that the Miniſters (d)We preach that ſame Euangell that is written in the Scriptures.of this newe Evangell hes not onelie inuented ſum hereſies themſelues, but alſo hes renewed many auld condemned hereſies confuted by them before (as they (e)You ſpeake heere againſt your conſcience.can not deny) as I fall giuegive ſum examples afterward, as the hereſie of Simon Magus, of Manichaeus, Pelagius, Aerius, Iouinianus, Vigilantius, with many vthers, what le… can wee doe nor impugne the ſame, as our predeceſſors did before.
M. Iohn Welſche his Replye.
As to your anſwere: firſte ye denye it and deteſtes it as a blaſphemie: Nixt ye goe aboute to cleare your ſelues from the ſuſpition of it: Thirdly ye challenge vsus and our doctrine with the crymes of noveltie and hereſie: And ſo ye conclude yee could doe no leſſe nor impugne it.
As to your denying of your defacing of the trueth of God, ſo doth the hooriſh woman after ſhe hes eaten, Pro. 30.20ſhe wypes her mouth and ſayes, ſhe hes not ſinned, whilk is true as well in ſpiritual as in bodilie fornication: So not-withſtanding your Kirk hes buried the trueth of God in the graues of darknes, and did ouercure it with their traditions and gloſſes thir many yeares bygane, yet you wype your mouthes, and ſayes you hauehave not ſinned. But look to it in time, for ignorance, and zeil without knawledge will not excuſe you in the day of the Lorde. Matth. 26.65.That you deteſt it as a blaſphemie, ſo did the hie prieſt rent his cloathes and ſaid Chriſt blaſphemed, when he ſpake but the trueth. As for your golden ſtyles whilk you take to your ſelues of Catholicks, defenders of the trueth, ſucceſſors to the paſtors of the true Kirk and impugners of all falſe doctrine. Your doctrine indeede could not deceaue ſo many, if it were not couered with thir ſtyles; your poyſone and abhomination would not be drunken ſo vniuerſallie, Apoc. 17.4.if it were not in ſick a golden cuppe as this. So theſe are the byſſope wherewith ye would waſh you from this iniquity, and clenge you from this ſinne. Matth. 7.15.But may not falſe prophets come in ſheeps clothing? And the ministers of Satā can they not tranſforme themſelues as though they were the Miniſters of Chriſt? 2. Cor. 11.13 14 Apoc. 24 & 8 Ioh. 8.37. Mat. 23.7The Scriptures hes foretold it: & did not the falſe Apoſtles in Epheſus, call themſelues the Apoſtles of Chriſt, and yet they were found lyars? And did not the ſynagogue of Satan call her ſelfe the ſynagogue of the Iewes, (that is, the Kirk of God) and yet they were not ſo, but the ſynagogue of the deuill? yea and did not Abrahams ſeede, and they that ſate in Moſes chaire, Mat. 7.16. Ioh. 10.11and was the ſucceſſours of Aaron, condemned the Sauiour of the worlde? Therefore not by your ſtyles, but by your fruites ye muſt be tryed. For if ye bee catholicks &c, ye will teach the doctrine of that good paſtour, and chiefe ſheepheard the Lord Ieſus. So it is your doctrine and not your ſtyles that muſt defend you.
And becauſe (Chriſtian Reader) by this ſtyle of Catholicke, whilk they aſcriue only to their Kirk, they cauſe the ſimple to erre, and leades many blindlings to damnation, therefore I wil take this viſard frō them. Ye are not the Catholick Kirk, as ye ſtyle your ſelf, and thus I proue it. Pope Pius the fift, who write a Catechiſme according to the decree of the councill of Trent. He there ſayes that the Kirk whilk is called the bodie of Chriſt, Catechiſm. conc. Trident in expoſitione ſymbol.whereof he is the head, is called Catholick, becauſe it is ſpread in the light of ane faith frō the eaſt to the weſt, receauing men of al ſortes, containing all the faithfull whilk hauehave beene from Adam, euen vntill this day, The Kirk of Rome is not the Catholick Kirkor ſhall be hereafter to the end of the world profeſſing the true faith, &c.
Now I reaſon thus. The Catholicke Kirk comprehends all the faithfull from Adam till now, and that ſhall be hereafter to the end of the world, or elſe Pope Pius, and the fathers of Trent erres. But the Romane Kirk comprehends not all the faithfull from Adam till now, and that ſhall be hereafter: Therefore the Romane Kirk is not the Catholicke Kirk. Chooſe you now whilk of theſe ye will denye. The propoſition I trowe ye will not: for then ye ſhould bring twa incōueniences, the ane vponupon Pope Pius and the fathers of Trent, that they hauehave erred in defyning the Catholick Kirk, and ſo the Kirk & the Pope may erre. The vther is vppon your ſelfe, who ſaide that your Kirk hes not erred. And ſo ye loſe your ſtile of a defender of the Catholick faith: for this is a chief poynt of their faith, that the Kirk cannot erre. I hope therefore that theſe are Labyrinths whilk yee will not wittinglie caſt your ſelfe vntounto, and ſo you muſt hold faſt the propoſition. All the queſtion is then of the aſſumption. Whether the Romane Kirk comprehends all the faithfull from Adam till now, and whilk ſhall be to the end of the world, or not. Firſt I ſay, a particular Kirk comprehendes not all the faithfull from Adam &c. But the Romane Kirk is a particular Kirk, or elſe the fathers of the counſell of Baſile, …a…ien concil. epiſt. ſynod 3. Verratus, diſputationum contra Lutheranos tom … de authoritate a…poteſt. vniuerſ. …ccleſ. cap. 1.and Verratus a papiſt erres, for they call the Romane Kirk a particular Kirk. We grant (ſay they) that the Romane Kirk is a principall Kirk among vthers, but while you commend a parte forget not the haill. And they ſay, the vniuerſall Kirk cōprehēds the Romane Kirk. Chuſe you then whether will you contradict the fathers of the counſell of Baſile and a Papiſt Verratus, and be ſo abſurd as to call the arme of the bodie the haill bodie, ane arme of the Oceane ſey the haill Oceane ſey, or to goe from your title that the Romane Kirk is not the Catholicke kirk. Secundlie, the Catholicke Kirk comprehendes them that were before Chriſt: But the Kirk of Rome comprehendes not them, for there was a Kirk, or euer there was a Kirk at Rome, and the Romane Kirk comprehends nane but them that acknowledges the Pope to bee the head of the Kirk. But thoſe that were before Chriſt neuer did that: Therefore the Romane Kirk is not the Catholicke Kirk. Thirdlie, the Catholicke Kirk is inviſible: for at the leaſt, neither are they that ar glorified, neither are they that are to bee borne, viſible. But ye wil not hauehave the Romane Kirk, but alwayes viſible, therefore the Romane Kirk is not the Catholicke Kirk. Fourthlie, if the Romane Kirk be the Catholicke Kirk, then either it ſhall follow, that the Pope is the heade of the Catholicke Kirk, or elſe that the Romane Kirk wants a viſible heade. Chooſe you whether of theſe ye will, for the ane ye muſt, if ye will hauehave the Romane Kirk to be the Catholicke Kirk. But to ſay that the Pope is the head of the Catholicke Kirk, I trowe ye dare not be ſo blaſphemous: for the gloryfied Saints, & Peter himſelfe are of the Catholicke Kirk, or elſe (as I ſaid before) Pope Pius and the fathers of Trent erres. And ſo then if ye will make him heade of the Catholicke Kirk, ye muſte make him heade of the gloryfied Saints and of Peter alſo. So then chooſe you whether will ye leaue the ſtyle of Catholicke, whilk ye claime as proper to your Kirk, or will ye hauehave the Pope the heade of the triumphant Kirk in heauen: or laſt of all, will yee hauehave your Romane Kirk to want a viſible heade: ane of theſe ye muſt chooſe. So to ende this poynte, this ſtyle of Catholicke it is like the numbering of the people by Dauid: for as it brought him in a wonderfull ſtraite, 2. Sam. 14.when he ſawe it behoued him to chooſe, either ſeauen yeares famine, or foure moneths flying before his enemies, or three daies peſtilēce. So this title of yours if you will bide by it, brings you in a wōderful ſtrait: for yee hauehave not the choiſe of ane of three euils, but theſe three things muſt ye either chooſe, or elſe let this ſtyle of Catholicke goe; ane of you fighting againſt ane vther, the Kirk inviſible, and the Pope not to bee the heade of the Kirk. Of the whilk, the leaſt of theſe is more able to overthrow your Kingdome, then they all were able to hauehave ouerthrowne the Kingdome of Dauid, for they are the maine pillers of your Kingdome, your vnitie, your viſibilitie, your Popes ſupremacie, all whilk you muſt either loſe, or elſe let your ſtyle of Catholicke goe from your Kirk. But howe will ye wreſtle your ſelfe out of this? For if ye will beleeue the fathers of Trent, and Pope Pius, in defyning the Catholick Kirk, ye cannot eſchew thir inconveniences. And if you wil not beleeue thē, that they ſpake trulie in that poynte, ye muſt accuſe them of error. And ſo the Kirk hes erred, the Pope hes erred, and your ſelfe hes erred that ſaid your Kirk hes the trueth in all thinges. Iohn. 11.50And ſurelie as Caiaphas being hie prieſt that yeare, ſpake the truth when he ſaid that ane muſte die for the people, and not the the haill nation periſh, ſuppoſe in … euill ſenſe. So hes the fathers of Trent and Pope Pius here ſpoken trulie, Heb. 12, 23. Gal. 4, 26,both acording to the Scriptures, for the Kirk is called the aſſemblie of the firſt borne, whoſe names is written in heauen. And that new Ieruſalem whilk is from aboue, whilk is the mother of vsus al. And alſo according to the fathers, (a)Clem Ale…. ſtrom. li. 7. & Bernard. cantic. 78. & Auguſt d… catechiſ. …nd. cap 20. & Gregorie & moral. in Ioh. li. 28. c. 9.who affirmeth that the Kirk is the companie of the predeſtinate, and all the elect are within the compaſſe of it, and are citizens of it. So as (b)Mat. 1….17.Chriſt ſaid to the Iewes. If I caſt out deuils by the prince of deuils, by whome then caſtes your children them out? So if we ſpeake now by ane erroneous ſpirit, that ſayes the Catholicke Kirk comprehendes all the elect, that was, is, and ſhall bee, and the Kirk of Rome can not bee the Catholicke Kirk. By what Spirit hes your councill and Pope and thir fathers ſpoken the ſame? So not your children but your fathers ſhall be your iudges.
Ye did mark ſome contradiction as ye thought betweene me and ſome vthers, vntounto the whilk I will anſwere in the owne time. Let me therefore marke this ane now, and marke it (Reader). Ye hauehave heard now howe that all theſe with ane voice hes ſaide, that the Catholicke Kirk comprehends all the elect, that was, is, and ſhall bee: Is it any hereſie then to holde this poynte? I think you will not, nor dare not ſay it. What will you ſay then to your generall councill of Conſtance Seſſ. 15, art. 1. 6.who condemned Iohn Hus for the ſame Doctrine, the firſt, and ſixt article, for ſaying that there is ane vniuerſall Kirk, whilk is the company of the predeſtinate, and as it is taken in this ſenſe, it is ane article of our faith. For theſe amongſt the reſt, was this pure innocent condemned and burnt as ane hereticke, and his doctrine as hereſy: whilk of thir wil ye ſay now hes erred? whether the generall councill of Conſtance? or the fathers of Trent, Pope Pius, Gregorie, Auſtine, Clement, and Bernard? For ſurelie if the latter erred not, then not onelie did the councill of Conſtance erre, but alſo hes broght vpō them ſelues innocēt blood, in condemning the innocent & ye trueth in him. And if the council of Conſtance erred not, in condemning thir articles of Iohn Hus, then hauehave they condemned the doctrine of the fathers of Trent, Pope Pius, Gregorie, Auſtine, &c. and their perſones, in the perſon of Iohn Hus. Chooſe whilk of them ye will. I ſpeak the trueth to thee in Chriſt (Reader) be not deceaued. But open thy eyes and beholde the veritie it ſelfe condemned by a generall councill, & the profeſſor of it burnt for ane heretick: But his Reuel. 17.… & 18.24blood & the blood of the reſt of the martyres of God is found in this whoore of Babell, and therefore ane day ſhe ſhall be recompenſed for all her iniquitie. Goe out of her therefore and ſaue thy ſoule, Reuel. 18.45that thou bee not tormented in the lake that burnes with fire and brimſtone, with her for euermore. Vtherwiſe I call heauen and earth to witneſſe againſte thee, that thou ſall die in her ſin, and the Reuel. 14.…ſmoke of thy torment ſhall aſcend for euermore. What now will you ſay to theſe things, that your Kirk is not the Catholicke Kirk, but a parte of it onlie. And is onlie Catholick, becauſe of the Catholicke doctrine that ſhe profeſſes? But if this be true, wherefore then did your generall councill condemne it in Iohn Hus, and burne him for that doctrine, whilk both your ſelf muſte confeſſe to bee true, and is aggreable to Scripture, fathers, and your owne Popes. Next I ſay, ſuppoſe when ye are brought to this ſtrait, ye muſte ſay ſo: yet for al this, not onlie call ye your Kirk Catholicke, becauſe of the ſoundnes of doctrine whilk yee ſuppoſe ſhe profeſſes, but (e)As appeareth by the epiſt. of Cardinal Cuſanus writing to the Bohemians. Cochlaeus hiſtor Huſsitar. lib. 12alſo & ſpeciallie to make the ſimple beleeue, that there is no ſaluation out of her. Therefore ye call it the onlie true Kirk, & ye Catholicke Kirk: for out of the particular Kirk there is Saluation, but out of the Catholicke Kirk there is no ſaluation. Thirdlie I ſaye, as the epiſtles of Peter, Iohn, Iames, and Iudas are intituled Catholick, not becauſe of the ſoundneſſe of their doctrine, whilk is common to the epiſtles of Paul alſo, and al the reſt of the Scripture, whilk in that reſpect may alſo be called Catholicke, but becauſe they are written generallie to all: So the Kirk is called Catholick properly, not becauſe of the ſoundnes of doctrine, for that is common to all the particular Kirks, that hes the puritie of Religion, but becauſe it comprehends all the particular Kirks and all the elect. And alſo to put a difference betweene the Kirk of the Iewes, whilk did comprehend but ane certaine people, & the Chriſtian Kirk ſince the comming of Chriſt, whilk is not bound to any certaine place or nation, or people, but indifferently receaues al, both Iew and gentile that beleeues. & therfore is it called Catholick: & therfore in our beleef we ſay not, I beleeue the Catholick doctrine, but the Catholick Kirk. So by this ſhe is properlie diſtinguiſhed from particular kirks, as the Mother from ye daughters, & the hail body from ye particular members. So thē if you would ſpeak properlie of your Kirk, & not make your ſtyles ſnares, to catch ye ſoules of the ſimple, call her but a particular Kirk, and a member of the Catholicke Kirk, but yet dead and rotten, as ſhall bee ſhewen afterward by the grace of God. Vtherwiſe, if you will but call her the Catholicke Kirk, you firſt rob the mother, for ſhe is properlie Catholicke, and alſo iniures the reſte of the daughters: For in reſpect of the ſoundnes of faith, they maye alſo challenge the ſame to them. And thirdly, ye deceaue the ſoules of the ſimple thereby, by making them beleeue there is not ane vther Kirk but yours. And laſt of all, you are ſacrilegious in decking ane adultereſſe with the ſtyles of the ſpouſe of Chriſt.
As to the thirde poynte, wherein ye calumniate the trueth of God whilk we profeſſe, in calling it ane new Euangell, and olde renewed, and new invented hereſies of our owne. Theſe are indeede heauie words wherewith ye (a)Act. 18.6. & 19.9.blaſpheame the word of the Lord, and ſpeakes euill of it to the people of this coūtrie. And therfore as the Apoſt. ſaith of them that blaſphemed his doctrine. Rom. 3.8Your damnation is iuſte. For a woe by Gods owne mouth is pronounced againſt them that calles good euill, Iſay. 5.20. Iude. 1.….and euill good, trueth falſet, and falſet trueth, and darkneſſe light, and light darkneſſe: But as the Archangell when hee ſtraue with Satan about the bodie of Moſes, did not blame him with curſed ſpeaking, but ſaid, The Lord rebuke thee, ſo we wil not blame you with curſed ſpeaking, but the Lord rebuke you. For yee ſpeake heere the viſion of your owne harte, and not from the mouth of the Lord: And ye are not the firſt that hes blaſphemed the trueth of God, for ſo did the Iewes before you, call the doctrine of the Euangel a ſect, a hereſie, and the gentiles called it ſtrange gods and a new doctrine, Act. 28. Act. 24. Act. 17.and the preachers thereof, a ſetter forth of ſtrange gods, and of new doctrine, and a babler. The Iewes ſaid that Chriſt had a deuill, and yet as our Lorde teſtifies, Ioh. 8.44.It was they that was the children of the deuill. Ye ſay that we preach ane new Euangel, & olde & new hereſies; but this is the ſinne and the doctrine of your Kirk: O…liel. de ſan…o a more, in his book de pericul. …iſſ. …empo. a l…arned man anno. 1192, … …. 5.For to let that paſſe of that newe and euerlaſting goſpell, whilk your fryats invented & deuiſed, wherein was contained ſic blaſphemies as the heauen and earth abhorres to heare them: That God the father reigned vnderunder the law: God the Sonne vnderunder grace. And the holie ghoſt was then that yeare to beginne his kingdome and to continue to the end of the worlde. And that Ieſus Chriſt was not God, his Sacrament nothing, and his Euangell not a true Euangell. (O horrible blaſphemie) The whilk if God had not raiſed vp ſome men in thoſe dayes to hauehave reſiſted it, as the Waldenſes and vthers whilk ye call heretickes and infamous men, the goſpell of Chriſt had beene looſed, and in ſteede of it, we woulde hauehave gotten ane new Euangel: The dreggs whereof yet remaines in your Kirk. But I will let this paſſe, becauſe the wiſe men of Babell (I meane your clergie of Rome) ſawe that that was too plaine ane iniquitie, therefore they cauſed it quietlie to be remoued and buried, and yet they not condemned as heretickes that preached it. But by the contrarie, the Waldenſes and vthers that withſtoode it, was condemned as heretickes and their bookes burned. To let this paſſe (I ſay) whilk teſtifieth what the world might hauehave looked for at your hands, if the Lorde had not prouided better for his poore Kirk. Your haill doctrine is Antichriſtian as ſhall bee proven heereafter, your Kirk Babell, (a)Reu 17your Kingdome that ſecond beaſt (b)Reuel. 13.11that hes two hornes like the Lambe & yet ſpeakes like the dragon, and your head the man of ſinne (c)2. Theſſal. 2, and Sonne of perdition. And ye are they that hes renewed old condemned hereſies, and hes inuented new of your owne, as ſhall be proued afterward, by gods grace.
M. Iohn Welſche.
Say they, our religion is ſo ancient that it hes continued euer by a lineall ſucceſsion of Paſtoures and Biſhopes, from the dayes of Chriſt & his Apoſt. till nowe, neuer interrupted, neuer ſpoken againſt, but of late ſince Martine Luthers daies: But yours, ſay they, is newlie forged, and invented, neuer harde tell of but ſince Luther and Caluines dayes. Therefore yours can not be the true Religion, and ours muſt be the onlie true Religion.