Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 3
M. Gilbert Browne.
This obiection conſiſtes partlie of ane trueth, and partly of an vntrueth. It appeares be this that either M. Iohn knowes not our preeues, or if he dois he alteres the ſame that he may the better oppugne his owne inuention.
Our obiection, or rather ane of our prooues, whereby we prooue that we Catholickes is the onlie true Kirk of Chriſt, and hes the onelie truth in all things, is this.
We hauehave aboundantly ſet downe to vsus by the Prophets and Apoſtles in the holy write, that the kingdome and Kirk of Chriſt ſhall neuer faill in this earth and that the gates of hell ſhall not prevaile againſt it. But ſhall bee permanent for euer, and ſhall hauehave alwayes the preſence and aſſiſtance of the father, ſonne, and holy ghoſt, who ſhall teach it all trueth, and remaine with it for euer, as may be perceaued be thir places noted here, whilks wereouer longſome to be ſet downe at length. To the whilks I adioyne ſome of the ancient fathers exponing the ſame.
Out of the olde teſtament.
Pſal. 60.5. read. Auguſt. vponupon this. Pſal. 88. v. 1.2.3.4.5, 29.30.31.32.33.34.35.36.37.38. read Auguſt. on thir places, Pſal 104. ver. 8. read Aug. Pſ. 110.9. Eſa. 9.7. read. S. Hierom. on Eſa. 51.7.8. read S. Hier. on Eſa. 54.8.9. read Hier on Eſa. 55.3.13. Eſa. 59.21. read Hier. on Ier. 3….3.36 read Hier. on Ezec. 17.25.26. Dan. 2, 44, Dan, 7.14.27. Miche. 4.7.
Out of the new Teſtament.
Luc. 1.33. reade S. Auguſt. vponupon the 109. Pſalme. Math 10.18. reade heire Sainte Hierome vponupon this place Luke. 22.32. Iohn. 14.16.17. Iohn. 17.18.19.20. Math, 28.20. 1 Tim. 3.15. Act. 5.39.
Some of the ancient fathers.
…f ye take failing for an vtter ouerthrow of the Kirk of the elect, it is truth: but if you take it for …rring, and applyes it to the viſible particular Kirks then it is falſe.Hilari. de Trinitat. lib. 7. Auguſt. de vtili. credent. ca, 87. Ambroſ, lib. 9. cap. 20. Chryſoſt. in ſermo. de pente. Clem. Alex. lib. 6. ſtrom. in the end.
And becauſe the Scriptures and the ancient fathers of the primitiue Kirk concurres and agrees in ane vnitie. I would wiſh M. Iohn to conſider the ſame, that the Kirk of Chriſt be all mens iudgements ſhall neuer faill, nor be interrupted nor broken.
M. Iohn Welſche his Replye.
I will followe your foot-ſteppes and firſte anſwere to that parte whilk ye ſay is true, and then vntounto that whilk ye ſay is falſe: And as to the firſte, the grounde whilk ye laide downe wherevpon ye goe aboute to builde the trueth of your religion, is the Kirk of Chriſt ſhall neuer faill nor bee interrupted &c. Athenaeus dipn…ſo phiſt lib. 1….It is recorded in hiſtories of one Thraſilaus a frantick man among the Greekes. Whenſoeuer hee ſawe any ſhips arriue at the hauen of Athens, he thought them all his owne, and tooke ane inuentarie of their wares, and met them with great ioye. Euen ſo it is with you, where ſoeuer you ſee the name of the Kirk in the holy Scripture, and the promiſes of God made vntounto the ſame, ye take all to be yours, and books the treaſures of it: And boaſtes thereof as though they were your owne. Crying, the gates of hell ſhall neuer preuaile againſt it. It ſhall neuer faile. It hes alwayes the holye Ghoſte to leade it in all trueth. To remoue you therefore out of the hauen and to giuegive eueryevery marchant his owne ware, and his owne ſhip, and to ſet the Kirk it ſelfe in poſſeſsion of the Kirk we muſt diſtinguiſh the name of the Kirk. The Kirk therefore is taken ſome-times for the companie of the elect and choſen, whereof a parte is in heauen triumphing with Chriſt their Lorde; a parte heere in the earth fighting her battels, lying in her campe & awaiting for the victorie. And theſe are termed the inviſible Kirk, becauſe gods election cannot bee diſcerned by the iudgement of mans ſenſis or eyes, and we can not knaw wha are his choſen. And vntounto this Kirk, that is, to the choſen appertaines all the promiſſes ſet downe in the ſcripture, and in them onlie are they fulfilled: Mat. 3.12. & 13 24.25And ſometimes it is taken for the company of them wha profeſses the true religion, wherein both the chaffe and the wheat; the popple and the good ſeede; the dregs and the wyne, the good and the euill are mixed together, the whilk ſuppoſe they be in the Kirk, yet they are not of the Kirk, no more nor the ſuperfluous humors of the bodie are true and liuelie members thereof. So then if ye meane by the Kirk, The Kirk of the elect, and if ye meane by this, That it ſhall neuer faile nor bee interrupted, &c. onlie this, That it ſhall neuer be vtterlie aboliſhed, but ſhall hauehave alwaies the preſence of the halie Ghaiſt to lead her in all truth, yea and in all halineſſe alſo, in ſafarre, as ſhal ſerue for her ſaluation: We grant that with you, Lib. 3. de Eccleſ. mili…. cap. 13as Bellarmine confeſſeth of vsus. And therefore he ſaieth, That many of their nomber ſpend but tyme, while as they goe about to proue that the Kirk heir beneath abſolutelie cannot periſhe, or make abſolute defection: for Caluine (ſayeth hee) and the reſt of the heretiques graunt that, but they ſpeak and meane (ſaieth he) of the inviſible Kirk. So if ye meane no farther but this, then Bellarmine telleth you that all the teſtimonies of ſcripture and fathers, that yee hauehave heaped vp heere to proue the ſame, is but to ſpend the time, and ſo are fetched as needleſſe witneſſes in a matter that is not doubtſome or called in queſtion. And if yee had vnderſtoode his language, ye needed not to hauehave combered your ſelfe in fetching of this mortar and ſtane, to builde vp your Babel: for this was not requyred at your hands. Geneſ. 11.7. with Apoc. 14.8. & 17 5. & 18.2.But becauſe it is Babel whilk ye are bigging, a towre of confuſion, therefore the lord hath ſent ſic a confuſion of language amongſt you that fewe of you vnderſtands what another ſayes, when ſome cryes for mortar, others brings ſtone. Bellarmine, the great maiſter-builder, cryes for proofes to prooue that the viſible Kirk heir beneth can not erre, neither in the matters whilk are neidfull to ſaluation, neither in the matters whilk are not neidfull, whilk ſhe propones to be beleeued, or to be done, whether they be doctrine contayned in the Scripture or extra ſcripturam, that is, not contained in the ſcripture. He cryes to prooue that, and ye cumber your ſelf in bringing in a nomber of ſcriptures to proue that the Kirk ſhal alwaies remaine till the ende of the world, wheras in the examination of your proofes it will be found, that they wil go no further with you. But if ye meane of the viſible Kirk, that it ſhall neuer faile, &c. that is, it ſhall neuer faile in doctrine, nor be interrupted in the ſame, not onelie in matters neidfull to ſaluation, but in all truth, as ye affirme of your Kirk, and as Bellarmine ſayes, as hath bene ſaide before, If ye go this farre, as ye doe indeede, and as Bellarmine does, and your ſelf muſt doe, if ye be a right defender of your Catholicke faith heere, or elſe there is no grounde whereupon ye can builde the puritie and trueth of your Kirk and religion. Then I ſay, that your ground is als falſe and erroneous, as the ſtuffe that yee builde vppon it, for both they hauehave failed, and hes beene interrupted, as ſhalbee prooued afterwarde. And marke this, Chriſtian reader, as the Philiſtims Kirk wherein they praiſed their God, Iudg. 16& mocked Samſon the Lords ſeruand, had two cheef pillers wheron the haill houſe leaned and was borne vp, ſo hes the Kirk of Rome two cheefe pillers, whereon the haill wecht of their Kirk & religiō hings: ye one whereof is this, that the Kirk can not erre: the other that the Pope is the head of the kirk. Take theſe two from them, their houſe muſt fall, and their religion can ſtand no longer. For when they are brought to this ſtrait that they ſee they cannot defend their religion, neither by the teſtimonies of the Scripture, nor yet by the examples of the Kirk of God, when ſhe was in her greater puritie and ſinceritie, they are compelled to lay this as a grounde to holde all their errors on, that the Kirk of Chriſt cannot erre: So take this ground from them, their Kirk and religion cannot ſtand.
Now, as to the teſtimonies whilk ye quote out of the olde Teſtament, and out of the firſt of Luke, verſ. 33. in the new teſtament, they onelie prooue that the Kirk and kingdome of Chriſt ſhall indure for euermore, and that his couenant made with her, is euerlaſting. The whilk cannot exeeme the militāt Kirk from erring in points of doctrine, for both the chaffe & euil ſeed in the Kirk, that is, theſe that are called, but not choſen, may erre, and that to death and damnation, and yet his Kirk and kingdome, and his couenaunt, remaineth ſure, ſtable, and inviolate: for the Lord onelie offers his couenant vntounto them, and they through incredulitie reiect it, and ſo he is not bund to ſanctifie or ſaue them, meikle-leſſe to keip them from error. And as for theſe who are called & choſen, all theſe promiſes are made and performed in euerie one of them, and the couenaunt of God is ſo ſure in euerie one of them, that our Sauiour ſayes, None of them can periſh. Ioh, 10.28And yet for all this, euerie one of them may erre in doctrine, ſuppoſe not to death and damnation, whilk ye will not deny. And gif ye would, infinite examples not onlie of the Saints of God, of the laickes (as ye call them) but alſo of the Prieſts, Prophets, Apoſtles; yea, and of Popes alſo, and of your owne Doctours and Biſhops, as a cloude of witneſſes, would ſtand vp and avowe the ſame in your face. Nowe I gather, ſeeing that the militant Kirk heir on earth hath but two ſorts of perſons in her, theſe that are called and choſen, and theſe that are onelie called but not choſen, & both may erre in points of doctrine, the one finallie to death and damnation: the other may erre, ſuppoſe not finally to death and damnation, & yet the couenaunt of God remaine ſure, euerlaſting, and inuiolate with his Kirk. Therefore, I ſay, the promiſes of the ſtabilitie of Chriſts kingdome, and the perpetuitie of his couenant made with her, cannot exeeme the militant Kirk from erring in points of doctrine: ſa ye hauehave loſt your vantguarde. Let vsus cum to the reſt, and ſee if they will fauour your cauſe any better nor the former hes done.
The next place ye quote is the 16. of Matthew, ver. 18. Thou art Peter, and vponupon this rocke I will builde my Kirk, and the yets of hell ſhall not preuaile againſt it. And becauſe ye truſt that there is not a teſtimonie of ſcripture whilk ſhall feight mair for you nor this: let vsus therefore try it to the vttermoſte, and ſee how far it can be ſtreatched out. What argument will ye frame out of this place? for, if you gather no more but this, Chriſt hath promiſed that the gates of hell ſhall neuer preuaile againſt the Kirk that is builded on the rocke, that is, on Chriſt: Therfore the Kirk that is builded on him, ſhall neuer be alluterlie exſtinguiſhed and aboliſhed by Satan. Then Bellarmine telles you that ye ſpend but time in proouing of this, for we graunt it, That the Kirk of the choſen ſhall neuer periſhe. But if you go farther, and ſay: That the Kirk of Chriſt ſhall neuer erre, becauſe Chriſt hath promiſed that the yettes of hell ſhall not preuaile againſt it: then, I ſay, either that expoſition is falſe, or els ye gates of hel ſhuld hauehave preuailed long ſince againſt your kirk: for whē it preuailed againſt ye rock wheron the kirk was builded, it preuailed againſt the Kirk. For, raze & ouerturne the foundation of a houſe, the houſe cannot ſtand, ſeeing the ſtanding of the houſe conſiſts on the firmneſſe and ſureneſſe of the foundation thereof. Nowe the rocke whereon ye ſay the Kirk is builded vntounto whome this promiſe is made, is Peter and his ſucceſſors the Popes of Rome, for ſo ye all with one conſent expones the ſame. … miſts annotation vponupon this place.Seeing then that they are the foundation of the Kirk, as ye ſay, and the yets of hel hes preuailed againſt them, as I ſhall proue by the grace of God: it muſt followe, if your expoſition be true, that the gates of hell hes preuailed, not once onlie, but at manie times againſt the Kirk. For, firſt Peter himſelf erred in a matter of doctrine, when hee thought with the reſt of the Apoſtles after the reſurrection of Chriſt, the kingdome of Chriſt not to be heauenlie but earthlie, Act. 1.6.not ſpirituall, but like the kingdomes of this world, proper to Iſrael, not common to all by vertue of the promiſe: and alſo he is commanded to preach the Goſpell to the Gentiles, Act. 10.20doubting nothing. Whilk teſtifies, that he doubted before whether the Goſpell ſhuld be preached to them or not, & therefore erred in a matter of faith, & that after he had receaued ye promiſe of ye haly Gaiſt. Ac. 10.14And alſo he erred in the abrogation of the Ceremoniall Lawe: for he beleeued that ſome meates were vncleane after the death and reſurrection of Chriſt, and therefore he refuſed to eate thereof. And this was a matter of faith alſo. And laſt of all, the halie Ghaiſt teſtifies, Galat. 2.11that he went not a right foote to the truth of the Goſpell, and therefore was rebuked by the Apoſtle Paule to his face. And as for them whome ye call his ſucceſſors the Popes of Rome, not onlie may they be heretickes, but alſo ſome of them hauehave bene heretickes. And therefore if your argument be good, the gates of hell both may, and hauehave preuailed againſt them. That they may be heretickes, I wil fetche no other witneſſes, but your owne councils, Canons, Cardinals, and your owne Popes: for they ſhall be your iudges in this matter. (a)Lib. 7. de Rom Pontif. cap. 30Bellarmine ſayes, that the Pope being a manifeſt hereticke, ceaſeth to be Pope, and to be head of the Kirk. (b)De authoritate Papae, & Conſilii cap. 20. & 21Caietan a Cardinall ſaith, That the Pope beeing a manifeſt hereticke, ſhould be depoſed by the Kirk. (c)Lib. 4. part. 2. cap. 20Iohannes de Turre cremata a Cardinall ſaieth, That when the Pope falles in hereſie, he is depoſed of God. (d)Lib, 1. cap. 2Alphonſus de Caſtro, ſaith that the Pope as he is a Pope may be an hereticke, and teach hereſie, whilk alſo hath ſometimes (ſaith he) faln out in them. (e)Serm. 2. de conſecr. Pontificis.Innocentius the 3. and Hadrian the 2. Popes, as alſo the 6. and 8. Synode, and their owne Canon (f)Diſt. 40. cap. Si Papalawe, doe teſtifie, that they may be heretickes. And alſo Pope Hadrian 6. Bellarm. lib. 4. de Romano Pontif. cap. 2.
And ſome of them hauehave bene heretickes alſo. (g)Tertul. ad prax.Zepherinus a Montaniſt. (h)Damaſus & Conſil. Sinueſſanum.Marcellinus, ane that ſacrificed to deuils the idoles of the Gentiles. (i)Athanaſ. in epiſt. ad ſolit. vita. Hieron. in catal. ſcrip. faſcic temp aetate ſexta. Hermannus contractus. Marianus Scotus compilatio chronologies Supplementum chronie. PlatinaLiberius ane Arrian, that denyed the godhead of the ſon. (k)Platina in … Anaſtaſ. & ſupplement chronic & diſtinct. 19. c… put Anaſtaſ…s falcic. tempor.Anaſtaſius a fauorer of the Neſtorian hereſie. (l)Liberatus in Bre…atio, …Vigilius ane Eutychian, whoſe hereſie was, that after the incarnation of Chriſt, there was but one nature in Chriſt, made of his diuinitie and humanitie, whilk ouerthrowes the foundation of our ſaluation. Honorius a Monothe lite, and therefore damned and accurſed in the 6. counſell of Conſtantinople. Act. 13. (m)Ocea…. in opere 93. dicrum. Adrian de confirmatione circa finem. Gerſon in ſermone de paſcha.Iohn the 22. held that the ſoules of the bleſſed being ſeparate from their bodie, did not ſee the Lord before the reſurrection. (n)Seſſione 11. Concilii Conſtan.Iohn the 23. denyed eternal life, whereof he was accuſed, and depoſed in the councill of Conſtance. (o)Seſſione 34.Eugenius the 4. depoſed in the counſell of Baſile for hereſie. I omit the reſt. Seing then theſe whome ye call the rock and foundation of your kirk hauehave erred, & that in matters of doctrine & religion, and in the principal points thereof, and that by the teſtimonies both of the ſcripture, & of your owne councils, doctors, Cardinals, and Popes. Therfore, if your argument hald forth, then, I ſay, the gates of hell hath preuailed againſt your kirk, becauſe they hauehave preuailed againſt the rocks & foundations thereof, for they hauehave erred as hath bene prooued, the whilk, I trowe, ye will not graunt. And therefore, the fartheſt that ye can gather heir, is but this: That the gates of hell, that is, the power of condemnation ſhall not katiſchyouſin, that is, totallie and finallie ouercome: ſo that ſuppoſe they may iſchyouſin, that is, be ſtrong, & make them to fail in manie things, yet they cannot preuaile totally and finallie againſt the kirk of God, that is, the elect and choſen, who are builded, not on the Pope, but on the immoueable rock the Lord Ieſus. I ſay further, this promiſe is made and performed in euerie one of the elect: For, the yettes of hell ſhall not preuaile, that is, get the finall and full victorie ouer anie of them. And therefore our Sauiour ſayes, None of my ſheep ſhall periſhe, …ob. …0.…and yet ye will not deny, but euerie one of the elect may erre. Therefore this promiſe doth not priuiledge the kirk of God from erring, but the chaffe and euill ſeede, that is, theſe that are called and not choſen, may erre, and erre finallie, … 7becauſe this promiſe is not made vntounto them, for they are not builded vponupon this Rock: but vponupon the ſand: for none is builded vponupon this Rock, but theſe who are bleſſed, and heareth the worde, and doeth it, as our Sauiour teſtifies. And the good ſeede whilk are theſe that are called and choſen, may erre, ſuppoſe not finallie and totallie.
The next place whilk ye quote, Matth. 26.is that prayer of Chriſt for Peter, Luc. 22.32. But I hauehave prayed for thee that thy ſaith ſaile not. It is true he prayed: It is true alſo that Peter faith fayled not: but yet it ſwouned, as it were, when he denyed his Lord and that by mainſwering and curſing of himſelf: and yet he erred, both in the qualitie of Chriſts kingdome, Act. 1. & 10 Gal. 2in the calling of the Gentiles, and in the abrogation of the Ceremonial law: as alſo, he went not rightlie to the truth of the Goſpell, as hes bene proued. So this prayer was not that he ſhould be kept abſolutelie from all erring, for then it ſhall follow, that Chriſt obteined not that whilk he prayed for: ſeing he erred (whilk is impious to think) but that his faith ſhould not decay finallie and totallie. Secondlie, the Lord Ieſus prayed alſo for all the beleeuers, Ioh. 17.18.19.20. whilk place ye alſo quote, and yet there is not one of the beleeuers but they may erre, as your ſelues cannot deny, & we hauehave proued by examples of your owne Popes: for if any were exeemed from erring, in your iudgement it ſhould be theſe that are the foundation of your kirk, whilk ye call your Popes, but they may erre, and hauehave erred, as hes bene proued. Thirdlie, I ſay, it wil not followe, Chriſt prayed for Peters faith that it ſhould not faile: Therefore he prayed for the Popes, whome ye will hauehave to be ſucceſſors to Peter, that their faith ſhould not faile (for that is the thing ye would be at) for their faith hes failed. 1. Timoth 4For if by faith ye vnderſtand the doctrine of the faith of Chriſt, as it is taken ſometimes in the Scripture, then I ſay your owne Doctors, canons, councils, cardinals, and Popes themſelues as they hauehave bene cited before, teſtifies that not onlie they may erre, but alſo that ſome of them hauehave erred, and hauehave beene hereticks. And if by that faith whilk our Lord prayed for, ye vnderſtand that lyuelie faith, that embraces the promiſes of Gods merciemercy in Chriſt, whilk works by louelove, & ſhawes forth the ſelf by good works: Rom. 3.25 Galat, 5.6. 1. Iohn 2.4as by keeping of Chriſts commandements, and by louing ane another: Then I ſay, your own writers, friends, fauourers, & cardinals teſtifies of them, Platin, Genebrard, Cran… inthat they hauehave gone from Peters ſteps, that they gote the Popedome by bryberie & duplicate page duplicate page duplicate page duplicate page barganing with the Diuell, That they were monſtrous & prodigious men yea, rather beaſts and monſters. So that of all men that euer profeſſed the faith of Ieſus, they hauehave failed moſte foullie in that lyuelie faith, as I hauehave prooued in another place concerning the Antichriſt.
As to that place whilk ye quote in the 14. of Iohn, ver. 16. and 17. Where the Spirite of Chriſt is promiſed to the Apoſtles, to dwell with them, and to remaine with them for euer: and in the 16. chap. ver. 13. that he ſhall lead them in all trueth. I anſwere. Firſt, that was the Apoſtles prerogatiue, the maiſter-builders of the kirk of Chriſt, that in writing and teaching the doctrine of ſaluacion, they ſhould bee led in all trueth, and in none euer ſince promiſed nor performed in that high meaſure. Secondlie, this promiſe of the ſpirit of trueth to dwell and remaine in them for euer, and to lead them in all truth, is made and performed in al the beleeuers, in ſo farre as may ſanctifie them and ſaue them: & yet ye wil not denie, but that euerie one of the beleeuers may erre. Therefore this promiſe will not reach ſo farre as to keip the kirk from impoſsibilitie of erring.
As to that place in the 17. of Iohn, I anſwered to it before.
As to the 28. of Matthew, I will bee with you to the ende of the worlde, I anſwere the ſame thing to it, whilk I anſwered to the former: that this promiſe is made, not to any viſible and ordinar ſucceſsion, (for that is to tye the promiſes of God to perſons & places) but to the Paſtors of the kirk whome he ſends forth, and to all the faithfull: and is performed in them in ſo farre forth as may ſaue them, and inable them for his worke. But yet this will not exeeme them from all poſsibilitie of erring.
As to that in the 1. Tim. 3. ver. 15. the kirk is called the piller and ground of truth, therefore ye gather, It cannot erre. Firſt, I wil aske you to whome the Apoſt. ſpeakes ſo, & vponupon what occaſion he ſpeakes it? Ye muſt ſay, To Timothie, that he might know how to behaue himſelf in the houſe of God, 1. Timoth 3.14whilk is the Kirk: for ſo the Apoſt. wrytes. Then I aske, Is not that kirk wherein Timothy ſhould hauehave behaued himſelf, called the ground & piller of truth? So the Scripture calles it, and ye cannot deny it. Nowe this kirk was the kirk of Epheſus, then the kirk of Epheſus is called the ground and piller of truth. But firſt, the kirk of Epheſus fell from her firſt louelove, and the Candle-ſticke is threatned to be remoued from her, Reuel. 2.5vnleſſe ſhe repent: She did not repent, but in time became worſe and worſe, and ſo heaped fault vponupon fault, till Chriſt hath now remooued his candle-ſticke from her, and delyuered her ouer to darknes and death, by taking his owne elect to himſelf, and giuing ouer the reprobate that hated the truth to the blindneſſe of their owne minde: ſo that cietie is left deſolace to the impietie of Mahomete, and ſhe that was once called by Gods Spirit the piller and ground of truth, hath now loſt the truth. Now, I ſay, that whilk may befall one kirk, may befall anie other kirk. Then that whilk is befallen to the kirk of Epheſus, may befall any other: But the kirk of Epheſus was firſt craiſed, and then by little and little quyte ouerthrowne: and beeing bereft of the light of Chriſt, is nowe a kirk no longer. Therefore, I ſay, that there is no kirk on the face of the earth, howſoeuer they flatter themſelues with glorious ſtyles of Catholick, pillers and ground of the truth: whoſe bodie, that is, the elect and choſen in it, may not bee ouerſhadowed with darkneſſe, and ouertaken with faintneſſe: whoſe chaffe, that is, the hypocrites in it, may not bee haillilie conſumed with rottenneſſe and deſtruction, and whoſe whole frame and outward gouernment, may not looſe both their ſtrength & bewtie. Thirdlie, I ſay, If the kirk cannot erre, as ye ſay, becauſe it is the ground and piller of truth: and if the kirk of Epheſus be called the piller & ground of truth, as the ſcripture ſayes; and ſeeing the kirk of Epheſus with all the kirkes of the Eaſt, (as ye cannot deny) hath condempned the Popes ſupremacy as hereſie: Therefore one of theſe two muſt follow, either that the kirk, that is, the piller and ground of the truth, not onelyonly may erre but hes erred, or els it is an hereſie cōdempned manie hūdred years agoe, that the Pope is the head of the kirk, & ſo Papiſtrie is hereſie. Iudg ye whilk of theſe ye wil chooſe. Laſte of all, I ſay, Philip. 2.16the kirk is called the piller and ground of trueth, becauſe it is her office and dutie to holde out the worde of trueth, as lanternes and lights, by preaching it and practiſing it; as the Prieſt is called the Meſsinger of the Lord of Hoſtes, Malac. 2.7.becauſe his lips ſhould preſerue knowledge, and declare the meſſage of God. But as there was Prieſts whilk ſhewe not foorth the meſſage of God, but cauſed manie to erre in the law, and corrupted the couenant of Leui: ſo there may be kirks, and hauehave bene, whilk hauehave not vpheld, and maintained the truth, but hauehave fallen therefrom.
Nowe I come to your laſt teſtimonie of Scripture, Act. 5.39. In that counſell of Gamaliel to the councill of the Scribes and Phariſies, that if the doctrine of the Apoſtles be of God, that it cannot be deſtroyed. What do ye gather heere? That the truth doth remaine for euer? Bellarmine telleth you, that ye ſpend but time in prouing that, for we graunt it vntounto you. It cannot (I graunt) be deſtroied, but yet it can be perſecuted and remooued out of places where it was before, and obſcured and corrupted by mens gloſſes and traditions, as it hath bene this thouſand and fiue hundreth yeares by the Iewes, to whome this was ſpoken. That if the doctrine of the Apoſtles was of God, they could not deſtroy it: and yet (as was ſaide) they baniſhed it, and made the Lord to depriue them thereof, and to giuegive them ouer to the blindneſſe and hardneſſe of their hearts, becauſe they would not embrace the trueth when it was offered.
Seeing then there is not a ſillab in Gods word, that wil vpholde this maine foundation of your kirk, (that the Kirk cannot erre) take heede to your ſelf, (M. Gilbert) in tyme: & build not the damnation of your owne ſoule and the damnation of the ſoules of manie others, vponupon a point of doctrine that hath not God to beare witneſſe to it in the whole ſcripture. I might end heere, but becauſe this point, (as I ſaid before) is the main piller that vpholdes the whole weight of their kirk and religion: therefore I will vtterlie ouerthrowe the ſame, and I will proue out of the worde of God that the kirk in all ages, both may erre, Marc. 10.18. Rom 3.4.9 10.11 12. & 19. ver.& hes erred. And firſt the Scripture teſtifies, that it is onlie proper to God alone by nature to be perfitelie holy, and true and free from all errors. And contrariwiſe man by nature is vnholie, a lyar, prone to deceaue, and to be deceaued: ſo that by nature he is nothing elſe but a maſſe of blindneſſe and corruption: ſo that the light he hath, he hath it by free grace, by Gods Spirit, to make him ſee ſo meikle of his light in the face of Chriſt, as may ſaue him. But yet ſo long as they are in this houſe of clay, they ſee but in part: 1. Cor. 13.12.and that part whilk they ſee, is but obſcurelie and dimlie, as the Apoſtle ſpeakes. So that as long as they are in this worlde, they are ſubiect to ſinne, ignorance, and errors. But as there are two ſorts of men in the viſible Kirk: ſome called and choſen, ſome called, and not choſen: and as in the diſeaſes of the body ſome are curable, whereof men recouers, ſome are deadlie whereof men dyes: So is it in the errors of the militant Kirk, ſome are deadlie, & ſome are curable. The choſen that are called may erre but their errors are nor deadlie, as the errors of the a)Act. 1.6. Act. 10 Act. 11. Galat. 2 Reuel. 19. & 22Apoles were, they recouered by grace from them. The called that are not choſen, may erre and erre deadlie, and neuer recouer: as theſe of whome b)1. Iohn 2.1…Iohn ſpeakes: They went out from vsus (ſayes he) becauſe they were not of vsus, &c. Now ſeeing the viſible Kirk heir beneath ſtands but of theſe two ſorts, to wit, of theſe that are called and choſen, and theſe that are called but not choſen, and both may erre. Therefore it is manifeſt, that the Kirk militant heir beneath, may erre. And to prooue this more amplie, that ſhe hes erred before the Law, vnderunder the law in Chriſts time, and after Chriſt. Firſt, Adam being made in perfite holineſſe and integritie, how foullie did he erre when contrarie Gods commandement, giuing more credite to the Diuell nor to his maker, he brake that firſt couenant. For, Contra Marcionem lib. 1Tertullian ſayes Who wil doubt to call Adams fall ane hereſie? Nowe if Adam in his full light did not ſtand but ſo foullie erred, whilk is he that is come forth of his loynes, borne in ignorance and blindneſſe, that dare challenge this prerogatiue to himſelfe, Geneſ. 4that he cannot erre, except the man of ſin and ſonne of perdition: that is the Popes of Rome. Now, he being thruſt out of Paradice hath two ſons: the elder Cain, for the murther of his brother is accurſed of God, and the author of the Synagogue of Babel, that is the wicked. The Kirk of God remayned in the poſteritie of Seth, Geneſ. 5and at the laſt Religion began to be ſo prophaned, that at length it grew to ſik a height, that Religion being contracted onelie in the familie of Noah, it could be puniſhed with no leſſe nor with ane vniuerſall (b)Geneſ. 6deſtruction of all liuing creatures by the floode, except onelyonly theſe yt were preſerued in the Arke with him. Of Noahs 3, children two of them fel, both themſelues & their poſterity. The true Kirk and Religion remained in the familie of Sem. And neither were they free from Idolatrie, God calling (c)Geneſ. 12Abraham out of his owne countrie, ſeruing (d)Ioſu 24.2. & 3ſtrange gods. His eldeſt ſonne Iſmael being (e)Geneſ. 21.12 Geneſ. 25.23 Geneſ. 31.34. & 35.2.circumciſed, is commanded to bee caſten out of the Kirk of God. Iſaac hes two ſonnes, the elder is refuſed, the youngeſt is choſen, and ſo the elder with his poſteritie fel away. Iacobs familie was not cleane neither from Idolatrie, being polluted with ſtrange gods by his wife Rabel, till he clenſed his houſe. And as for his poſteritie, what ſtifneckednes, what rebelliō, vvhat idolatrie vvas amongſt thē, ſo that no threatning, no bleſsing, no correctiō nor teaching, could keepe them in the puritie of Gods worſhip and religion. Exod. 32.In the Kirk vnderunder the Lawe, the people are Idolaters, the hie-prieſt Aaron the maker of the Idole to the people. In the time of the Iudges after the death of Ioſua, Iudges 1.12.13they vvorſhipped Baal and ſtrange gods, and euerie man did that vvhilk ſeemed good in his owne eies, vvhen there was not a king in Iſrael vvhilk vvas verie oft in theſe daies, and therefore they are giuen ouer to the crueltie and tyrannie of their enemies round about them. 1. Samuel, 3.1 Proverb. 29.18 1. Chro. 13.3.In the time of Heli, there was no open viſion. And Salomon ſayes, where there is no viſiō the people periſh. In Sauls time the Arke of the Lord was not ſought, and ſo there wanted a cheefe parte of the publike vvorſhip of God: for God vvas conſulted at the Arke. And in the time of Salomon in his old age, vvhen his heart was turned from the Lord, the Scripture teſtifies, 1. Kings 12that they forſooke the Lord, & worſhipped ſtrange gods of the Ammonites. Such like in the time of Rehoboam Salomons ſonne, Iuda committed Idolatrie, and builded hic places, wherein they worſhipped contrary to Gods commandemēt. Iehoram King of Iuda, 2. Kings 14.22.23. 2. Chro. 21.11 & ….10…made Iuda and Ieruſalem to commit ſpirituall fornication and Idolatrie, as the houſe of Ahab made Iſrael to commit idolatrie. Seing then the worſhip of God was corrupted both in Iuda and in Iſrael, and there was na other viſible Kirk is vponupon the earth, except in Iuda and Iſrael, will it not followe then, that all the particular Kirk is on the earth may erre, and fall alſo to idolatrie? Siclike in the time of Ahaz, 2 King. 16.10 11. &ca ſtrange altar is placed in the temple of the Lorde, at the commandement of the king, by Vriah the Prieſt: & the king with the whole people at the kings commandement, offers vppon that aultar, and the aultar of the Lord is remoued out of his place. In the time of Ioaſh, 2. Chro. 24.8both the king and the nobilitie forſakes the houſe of the Lord and worſhips Idoles, ſo that the hote wrath, of the Lord was kind led againſt Iuda and Ieruſalem for their idolatrie. Siclyke in the time of Achaz, he made hie places in all the corners of Ieruſalem, and in all the cities of Iuda, 2. Chro. 28& there burned incenſe to ſtrange gods. In the time of Menaſhe, the whole publike worſhip of God was ſo defaced, and idolatrie ſo vniuerſallie ſet vp, that the ſcripture teſtifies, Iuda ſinned more hainouſlie nor the verie nations did, whome the Lord caſt out before their face. 2. Chr. 33.9The whole hoſte of heauen was worſhipped in ſtead of the true God. I beſeek thee (Reader) to read this chapter, and there thou ſhall finde that there was not ſa meikle as ane outward face of a Kirk at that time. Yea, 2. King. 12.3.4 2. King. 14, 4in the verie time of good kings, as Ioaſh, and Amatzia, who both in the beginning embraced the worſhip of God, but yet made defection in the end. The hic places were not remoued, whilk was ane error in the worſhip of God. The ſcripture teſtifies that the feaſt of the Paſſeouer was not kept ſo preciſelie, 2, Chro, 35, 18according to the word of God ſince the dayes of Samuel, no not in the reigne of the beſt kings, as it was in the 18. yeare of Ioſias, and there was 400. yeares and more betwene. Nehem. 8, 18Alſo the ſcripture teſtifies, that ye feaſt of the Tabernacles was not ſo kept, as it was thē, ſince the dayes of Ioſua, whilk was more nor 1000. years. And all the time of the captiuitie, where was there any publike face of the Kirk of God, with his publik worſhip vncorrupted in all things as the Lord commanded it? As concerning the kingdome of Iſrael from the time of their renting aſunder by Ieroboam from the Kingdome of Iuda, they neuer had the worſhip of God in integritie: but firſt worſhipped God in the places where they ſhoulde not hauehave worſhipped him, and after ane other manner, and by other Prieſtes, nor they were commanded. Next, they fell to the worſhipping of Idoles, till they were tranſported out of their land, and ſcattered vponupon the face of the earth. What, ſhall I purſue the ſayings of the Prophets, howe the onelie viſible Kirk in the world is called an harlote? Eſai. 1. Ier. 7 Eſai. 57.10.11 Ho…a 2the Temple a denne of theeues: the Prophetes all blinde guides, and dumb dogs that cannot bark.
Nowe, when God of his infinite merciemercy ſent his onelie begotten ſonne in the world, the light, the life, the ſaluation of the world, what did the Kirk and the Cleargie, the Scribes & the Phariſies that ſate in the a)Mat 23chaire of Moſes? Surely Chriſt had none ſo great enemies, as they were, who were the Doctors, the lights, the ſucceſſors of Aaron, to whome the lawe was concredited. When Chriſt teſtified of himſelf that hee was the light of ye world, they ſaid, his b)Ioh. 8.13teſtimony was not true. When others beleeued in him, they ſaid c)Ioh. 7.47they were deceiued. They ordaine d)Ioh. 9.22that if any man ſhould confeſſe Chriſt, he ſhould be excommunicate. So that e)Ioh. 12.42many that did beleeue in him durſt not for them confeſſe him. They f)Luk. 6.7watched him of purpoſe that they might hauehave matter of accuſation againſt him. And when he caſt out diuels, the g)Marc. 3 22.Scribes and the h)Mat…. ….24.Phariſies ſaide that he did caſt out deuils by Beelzebub the prince of deuils. i)Luk. 23.2.They ſaid they found him a man peruerting the nation, and forbidding to pay tribute to Caeſar. They k)Marc. 14.64.condemne him in a ſolemne council as worthy of death. Yea, as Chriſt teſtifies of them, l)Math. 23.13.they neither entred in the Kingdome of heauen themſelues, nor ſuffered others to enter in. And yet they are theſe that if ye looke to their antiquitie, they hauehave their beginning from Abraham: if to their ſucceſsion, they ſucceeded to Aaron: if to their callings, they were Scribes and Phariſies, Math. 23and ſate in the chaire of Moſes: If to the place, it was the houſe of God. If to the people whome they taught, they were the onelie people of God. If to their prerogatiues, to them appertained the adoption, and the glorie, & the couenant, Rom 9.4 & 5.and the giuing of the lawe, and the ſeruice of God, and the promiſes, of whome are the Fathers, and of whome is Chriſt according to the fleſhe, who is God ouer all bliſſed for euer, Amen. And if ye will looke to their Councel, they were ſolemnlie called together, where they condemned the Lord of life, and crucified the Prince of glorie. What can you ſay to theſe? That they erred in the perſon of Chriſt, but not in the exponing of the Lawe, (as ſome of you ſayes) But firſt, Moſes did write of Chriſt, Iohn. 5.…6. Rom 10.4.and Chriſt is the end of the Law: So that if they had not erred in exponing of the Lawe, they had not erred in the perſon of Chriſt, becauſe the Lawe teſtified of Chriſt, and he was the end of it. Next, Math. 5.the Scripture teſtifies that they erred in exponing of the Lawe, that they both brake the Lawe, and teached others ſo to doe. And therefore Chriſt ſayes, Math. 5.20.Except your righteouſneſſe exceede the righteouſneſſe of the Scribes and Phariſies, ye cannot enter in the Kingdome of heauen. For, whereas the Lawe of God counts hatred murther, and luſt adultery, and raſh ſwearing vnlawfull ſwearing, and our enemies our neighbours, whom we ought to louelove and to doe good vntounto: They by the contrary taught that our friends was onlie our neighbors whom we ſhould louelove, Verſ 43.and therefore they ſaid that we ſhould hate our enemies: that hatred was not the breaking of the ſixt command, and luſt no breaking of the 7. command: and raſhe ſwearing, no breaking of the third command. And therefore the Lord Ieſus in that fifth chapter of Matthew, doth vindicat the true meaning of the cōmandements from their fals expoſitions. And he teſtifies of them that they did abrogate the Lawe of God through their traditions, Math. 15.6.and ſo in vaine they worſhipped God, teaching for Gods Lawe (whilk he calles doctrine) mens precepts, whilk he prooues there by an example of abrogating & annulling of that dutie whilk we owe to Father and Mother, commanded vsus in the fifth commandement, by their tradition. And therfore he giues charge to his Diſciples to bewar of the leauen (that is the doctrine) of the Phariſies. Seing thē they who had their ordinary ſucceſsion from Aaron, erred: Math. 16 6, 10.how can the Doctors of your Kirk, yea, your Popes be priuiledged from erring? But it may be ye graunt all this; for how can ye denie it? That the Kirk before the Lawe, vnderunder the Lawe, in the time of Moſes, in the time of the Iudges, in the time of the Kings, in the time of the captiuitie, and in the time of Chriſt erred: but yet the Chriſtian Kirk hes greater priuiledges & promiſes that it cannot erre. Let vsus examine this alſo, whether the Chriſtian Kirk be priuiledged from erring, or not. And certainlie, if any Chriſtian Kirk, at any time had this praerogatiue, appearandlie the primitiue Kirk whilk was in the dayes of Chriſt and of his Apoſtles ſhould hauehave had it. But they had it not. Therfore what Kirk ſince vnderunder heauen can challenge it? For, in the time of Chriſts ſuffering the Apoſtles & Diſciples, who onlie then were the Chriſtian Kirk yea, after that they had bene Apoſtles, and after that they had bene ſent to preach the Goſpel, and worke miracles, yet at that time, did they not erre in the article of Chriſts reſurrection? Matth. 10 Act 1.6 Act 11 Act 10 Gal. 2 Alex. Habenſis in 3. parte queſt. v…t. art 2. & Iohan. de Turre Crem. in lib. 1. de Eccl. cap. 30. 1. Cor. 3 & in lib. 3. cap. 61and erred they not concerning the eſtate of Chriſts kingdome after the reſurrectiō? And cōcerning the teaching of the Gentiles, after that they had receiued the holy Ghoſt And Peter himſelf, as hath bene ſhowne. And ſundrie Papiſts ſayes that true ſaith remained onlie in the hart of Marie in the time of Chriſts ſuffering, was not heir then an vniuerſall erring? Now to goe forward did not the Kirk of the a1. Cor. 3 & 11 & 15Corinthians erre in building hay & ſtubble on the foundatiō & in the vſe of the Lords Supper, & ſome of them alſo concerning the reſurrection of the dead? And the Kirk of b)Galat. 1. & 3Galatia erred in being carried away to another Goſpell, and in ioyning the Ceremonies of the Lawe with grace in iuſtification? And what will ye ſay when the hereſie of Arrius (who denied Chriſt to be the ſonne of God aequall to his father) ſpred the ſelf ſo far that it is teſtified that the Biſhops of the haill warld became Arrians, Theodo. hiſt. Eccleſ. lib. 2 and Hie…d al contra Luciſ. cap 7. & in c…on. …thanaſ. ep…ſt de Synod. A…. & Scleue.that the haill warlde did grieue and wonder at it ſelfe that it was becum ane Arrian. What will ye ſay vntounto all the Chriſtian Kirks of the Eaſt, Grecia, Aſia & Africa, Kirks planted by the Apoſtles: I meane not now of them that hes profeſſed Mahometiſme but of thē that admits the ſcripture, acknowledges Chriſt their Sauiour who hes their ordinar ſucceſsion of Patriarckes and Biſhops aſwell as your Kirk of Rome hes, who in nomber far exceeds theſe Kirks whilk acknowledges your Pope to be the head of the Kirk. For firſt yours is but in Europe, except ye will claime to the newe found land, & not all Europe, for all the Kirks in Greece, whilk is a great part of Europe, acknowledges not your ſupremacie. Nowe take the Greeke Kirks from you, next the reformed Kirks in Scotland England, Germanie, Denmarke, France, Zealand, Holland, and other places, whilk hes gone out of Babel, whilks are all in Europe, your nomber will not be many that acknowledges your ſupremacie. And next take all Aſia and Africa from you, whilk is the two part of the worlde, your nomber will be ſmall in compariſon of theſe that are againſt your ſupremacie. Nowe all theſe deteſts your ſupremacie as tyrannie, and the worſhip of Images, your tranſubſtantiation in the Sacrament, the Communion vnderunder one kinde, the ſingle life of Prieſts. Either therefore ye muſte graunt that the greateſt nomber of Chriſtian Kirks hes erred and does erre, or elſe that your Romane Kirk does erre and your ſupremacie, yea your religion whilk depends vponupon your ſupremacie is the head of hereſie. But it may be ye will ſay, that all vther Chriſtian Kirks may erre, but that it is only proper to your Kirk not to erre. Firſt therefore, let mee aske at you what can be the cauſe of that ſingular priuiledge whilk the Kirk of Rome hes beſide all vther Kirks whilk euer hes bene, is, or ſhalbe? Yea, aboue Adam when he was in his integritie (for he erred:) yea, aboue the Angels, for they remayned not in the trueth. Aboue the Patriarckes, Abraham, Iohan. 8Iſaac and Iacob, yea, aboue Aaron, & the Kirk in the wildernes aboue the Kirk vnderunder the Lawe, yea, aboue the Apoſtles, & Peter himſelf before Chriſts ſuffering, in the time of his ſuffering, after the reſurrection, after the receiuing of the holie Ghoſt: for they erred in all theſe times, yea, aboue the Chriſtian Kirks that hes beene founded by the Apoſtles aſwell as yours: that had the promiſe, the couenant, the ſeruice of god once in as great puritie as euer yours had, that hes their ordinar ſucceſsion, their antiquitie, their vocation ordinar aſwell as yours hes vntounto this day. Great ſurelie muſt be that priuiledge giuen vntounto the Kirk of Rome that hes exeemed her from errour, all by hauing erred. What is then your prerogatiue aboue all other Kirks. I knowe that ye will ſay becauſe of Peters chaire that was there wherein the Popes ſits after him. Firſt, then if Peters chaire hes ſuch an prerogatiue that the Paſtors who ſits in it and the Kirk that cleaues to it. can not erre. I think ſurely the Lords chaire whilk was at Ieruſalem, whilk was called the Temple and ſeat of God, and Moſes chair wherein the Scribes and Phariſes ſate ſhould rather hauehave that prerogatiue to freeth the Kirkes and Paſtors ſitting in theſe chaires from erring, yea the kirk whilk the trueth it ſelfe Ieſus Chriſt founded whom he taught with his owne mouth, and among whom he was crucified ſhuld with far greater right clame to that prerogatiue. But ſince al their ſeats hes erred, for the Temple became a den of theeues: The Scribes and Phariſes that ſate in Moſes chaire condemned the Lord of glorie: and Ieruſalem it ſelfe cried out Crucifie crucifie him. And the chriſtian Kirk gathered there are long ſince far from the way of ſaluatiō. So that if neither the chair of God, nor Moſes freed the Kirk of the Iewes frō erring, nor the chaire of Chriſt freed the chriſtian Kirk there gathered from erring. How then can Peters chaire hauehave this prerogatiue aboue them al as to exeeme that Kirk and Paſtors that ſits therein from poſſibilitie of erring? What is this but to prefer him before them all, whoſe ſeat hes a priuiledge that neither God nor his ſonnes, nor Moſes ſeat had? O high blaſphemie to be deteſted and abhorred of all chriſtian hartes. But let vsus ſee if it hes this prerogatiue whilk they aſcriue vntounto it, or not. And firſt if it could hauehave exemid any from erring, ſhould it not hauehave exemed himſelf eſpecially from erring? But as it hes bene ſhowen he erred. Therfore it can not exeeme neither his ſucceſſors, Act. 1.6. Gal. 2nor yet the Kirk that acknowledges them, from erring. Secondly if it had exeemed any Kirk from erring, ſhould it not hauehave exeemed the Kirk of Antiochia eſpecially, for ſurely Antiochia hes better right to clame to this prerogatiue, Galat. 2 11.nor your Kirk hes. For firſt it was Peters firſt ſeat. Next the Scripture bears witnes to it, that he was there. But neither was Rome Peters firſt ſeate, nor is there ſo much as a ſillabe in al the ſcriptures, to proue that euer Peter was in Rome. But ſuppoſe Peter was there (for we wil not examine this now) whether is this prerogatiue (not to erre) giuen to your head, that is, to the Popes, or to the bodie, that is, the people, or to both? If ye ſay to the heade, (as ye doe indeede,) then what will yee anſwere to your owne writers and Fathers, to your owne councels and Popes. To your owne cannon law, affirming that Popes may erre and bee heretickes and ſhould be depoſed, and are depoſed when they are manifeſt heretickes (as hes beene proued before.) And what will yee ſay to your Popes that hes beene heretickes indeede, one of them an Arrian, another an Eutychian, the thirde an Neſtorian, the fourth a Montaniſt, the fift depoſed as an heretick. The ſext denying that the ſoules of the children of God ſawe Gods face whill after the reſurrection. The ſeuenth denying life euerlaſting, and others giuing themſelues ouer in the hands of the Deuill for the Popedome, others repelling and abrogating the decrees of their predeceſſors. Others ſik monſters and beaſts, ſo cruell to the dead and to the liuing, that your owne friends calles them monſters and affirmes of one (a)Iohn the 12. o… after ſome the 13 car. Tu…ecre ſumma de eccleſ. li. 2. c. 103.of them that the deuill ſhot him through whill he was abuſing another mans wife, and ſo dyed without repentance. Dare you ſay, and would ye hauehave the ſaluation of mens ſoules, to leane to this poynte of doctrine that they cannot erre which is the rocke and foundation of your Kirk, whilk aboue all others hes erred moſt foullie. O malicious and cruell man that woulde deceaue the poore flocke of Ieſus Chriſt, for whome he ſhed his blood, with ſuch hereſie & abhomination. Then this prerogatiue is not graunted to your Popes the heade and foundation of your Kirk. And ſurely if the foundation may be turned vp ſide downe, and the head may become ſenſles and deade, I ſee not howe the houſe can ſtande, and the bodie can bee whole, and one of your greateſt Papiſtes Bellarmine plainely confeſſeth, that if the Pope erre, of neceſſitie, tota eccleſia errabit. That is, Lib. 4. de Rom. pontifice cap. 3.the whole Kirk ſhall erre. VponUpon the whilk I reaſon, If the Pope may erre, and hes erred, then the whole Kirk may erre, and hes erred: (ſo Bellarmine one of the learndſt papiſts that euer was, writ:) But the firſt hes bene proued by your owne Doctors, Cardinals, Popes, councels, cannon law: Ergo, by your own doctrine the whole Kirk may erre. Here we might ſtay now and goe no further: for this ſufficiently ouerthrowes this poynt of your doctrine, that the Kirk cannot erre, & that be the confeſſion of the learnedſt of your ſide. But yet I will perſew the reſt. If you ſay it is granted to the body, then it is either granted to the people or to the Clergie. To the people, I trowe ye will not; for if your Popes may erre, much more may your people erre: And if he Apoſtles & other famous Kirks may erre, much more may your people erre: yea, if not, it ſhould followe that your people were aboue their head the Pope, whilk I trowe ye will not ſay. If yee ſay the Clergie, then eyther it muſt be your Doctors ſeuerally by themſelues, or as they are gathered together in a councell. But as they are ſeuerall ye will not ſay. For your Bellarmines controuerſies would conuince you to the face: for almoſt there are few controuerſies whilk he handles (and he handles more nor 300) but hee brings in ſome of your owne writers diſſenting from him, and whome in many places he confutes. And I think if Popes hes not this priuiledge, ſurely the Doctors of your Kirk ſeuerally hes not this priuiledge. But becauſe (as Bellarmine confeſſeth if a generall councell erre, then the whole Kirk maye erre, …ib. 2, de author concil. cap. 11for it repreſents the whole Kirk. And therefore hee brings this in as a reaſon to proue (that generall councels can not erre, becauſe the whole Kirk can not erre, for (ſaith he) the general councell repreſents the whole Kirk, therefore it can not ere. Let vsus examine this: for if it be found that generall councels may erre ſurely your cauſe is gone. Firſt then what will ye ſay to thirteene generall councels whereof ſeuen is vtterly reiected, and the other ſix are in part allowed, and in part reiected, whilk al hes erred as Bellarmine confeſſeth. De conci…s lib. 1 cap. 6 & 7But it may be you anſwer that theſe was not approued by the Popes of Rome, & therefore they might erre, Bellarm. lib. … cap. 2 & 5and hes erred, but theſe councels that are altogether allowed of him can not erre, nor hes not erred. Indeed it it true that this is your doctrine that neither generall nor prouinciall councell can erre that is allowed by the Pope, & that generall councels lawfullie conuened may erre, vnles they followe the inſtructions of the Pope. Cap. 11And therefore Bellarmine ſayes that they may erre three māner of waies, 1. in defyning of anything the fathers of the councel diſſent from the Popes legates. 2. If it be againſt the Popes inſtruction ſuppoſe both the Fathers and the legates of the councell agree together. 3. They may erre before they hauehave receiued the Popes confirmation and iudgement, ſuppoſe all both fathers and legates conſent together, becauſe (ſayth hee) the Popes iudgment is the laſt from the whilk no man may appeall, and he may approue and diſproue the generall councell notwithſtanding of their conſent with his owne legates. And therefore he ſayes in another place that the whole ſtrength or certainty of lawfull councels depends only of the Pope. Lib, 4. de Rom. Pout ſide cap, 3So then this is your laſt refuge. All depends on his inſtruction & confirmation, he hes a priuiledge that he can not erre and the generall councels receiues the ſame through his approbation and confirmation. But I anſwere: The Pope can giuegive no greater prerogatiue to others, nor he hes himſelfe: But (as hath bene proued before) the Popes may erre, and hauehave beene hereticks: Therefore they cannot giuegive this prerogatiue to others. And if ye will ſay (as ſome of you does) that the Pope ſuppoſe he may erre priuatly as he is a priuat man, & as a priuat teacher, yet he cannot erre as he is Pope in his office iudiciallie. Whereunto I anſwere firſte, That ſome of your owne Kirk, as (a)De poteſtate EccleſiaeGerſon and Almane, (b)Lib, 1, cap, 2 contra here.Alphonſus de Caſtro, (c)Loci Theolog lib, 6. cap, 1Canus, and Pope Adrian the ſext: all theſe teaches That the Popes may erre and teach hereſie as they are Popes: Either therefore the Popes may erre as they are Popes iudiciallie, and teach hereſie, or elſe not onlie theſe Doctors of your owne Kirk, but alſo the Pope himſelf hes erred, & that in a point of doctrine: and ſo howe euer it be, the Popes as they are Popes, iudicially may erre in points of doctrine. Secondly, I ſay, beſides nine Popes whilk hauehave bene hereticks, and that when they were Popes, ſundrie of them hes made decrees not only contrary to Gods word, but alſo contrary one to another, and that in matters of doctrine. As for example. Pope (d)c, laudabilem de converſione inſidelium and Alphonſius a Papiſt confeſſe… that this Pope erred in deſining a matter of faith, and Lyes he ſaw this decreet extant in the olde Decretals aduer. here…. lib, 1. cap. 4.Celeſtine the third made a decree that when of maried perſons the one falles in hereſie, the marriage is diſſolued, and the Catholicke partie is free to marrie againe, Math 6. Math 9 9.contrary to the trueth of God. And alſo contrary to the e)lib. 4 decretal. cap Quantodecreet of Pope Innocentius the third. Thirdly, either your Cannon Law erres, or els f)Cauſa 12. queſt 1. DilectiſſimisClements decreit that all things ſhould be common, and that wiues alſo ſhould be common. Gelaſius g)De conſcerat. cap. CompetimusPope affirmes that the myſterie of the bodie and blood in the Sacrament cannot be deuided & that the Sacrament cannot be taken in one kind onlie without great ſacriledge: and yet the Councell of Trent hes decreed the contrary, and the whole Romane Kirk practiſes the contrary. Pope h)Diſt. 50. cap. Qu ſemelMartine decreed that the Prieſts who are depoſed for any fault may neuer be admitted to anie degree of the Prieſt-hoode againe. Pope i)Diſtinct. 82. cap. Qui…Syricius, & Pope k)Diſtinct. 82. cap PresbyterCalixtus hes decreed the cōtrary. Pope Gregorie the thirde hee permits one to hauehave two wiues if the firſt be ſiklie, Decret cauſa 32. queſt. 7. c Quod prop…ſu ſticontrarie both to the goſpell a)…atth. 19and to ane other b)Dec…tal …b 4. tit. 9. cap. Quoniamdecreet of the cannon lawe. Pope c)Diſt. 40. cap. A quodam IudaeoNicholas ſaith, that that Baptiſme which is miniſtred without expreſſe mention of the three perſons of the Trinitie, is firme & ſure ynough. But Pope d)Diſt eadem de conſecrat. cap. in SynodoZacharie hes decreed the contrarie. All theſe decreites are ſet downe in their cannon law, and hes the ſtrength of a law in the Romane Kirk, not as priuate mens, but as Popes decreits. And yet ſome of them are directly repugnant to the word of God, that thēſelues cannot deny but they are hereſies, and ſome of them ſo directlie repugnant to the decreits of other Popes, that either the one or the other muſt be hereſie. But it may bee ye will anſwere that ſuppoſe the Pope may erre as he is Pope, and that in matters of doctrine, yet he cannot erre with his councell, either prouinciall or generall (as Bellarmine ſaith). Wherevnto I anſwere, firſt if general councels lawfullie conueened together, may erre in matters of doctrine, vnleſſe they bee confirmed by the Pope, as Bellarmine grants: And if the popes may erre themſelues alone, and that iudiciallie in matters of doctrine, as hes bene proued. Why maye they not erre alſo being ioyned together, ſeing councels hes this priuiledge onlie by his confirmation and allowance? As Bellarmine ſaith lib. 4. de Rom. pontiſi. cap. 3. Secondly, I ſay, either Pope Steuen the 6. with his councell erred in condemning of Formoſus & his acts whilk he made as pope, Sigebert in … nico. Platina in vita harum& in decreing his ordinatiōs to be void & null, becauſe the man was wicked by whom he was ordained: whilk is ane error of the Donatiſts, or els Pope Iohn the 9. with his councel of 72. Biſhops, erred, in iuſtifying Formoſus and his decreetes, and condemning the actes of Pope Steuen with his councell. Laſt of al, ſince general councels that hes bene confirmed by their Popes hes erred, In epiſt. ad Th…a clum quae eſtin 2. actione 7. Syn. Canon 2the ſixt generall councel confirmed by Pope Hadriane hes ſundry errors whilk they themſelues will not defend, as the rebaptiſing of heretickes. For the counſell of Cypriane is confirmed there, wherein this is decreted. Canon. 13And alſo it is ordeined that Elderis, Deacons, Canon. 67ſubdeacons ſhould not ſeparate from their wiues contrarie to the canon of the Romane Kirk, as is ſaide there. And the mariage of catholickes and heretickes is iudged null and voyde, 1. Cor 7.13 Canon. 12whilk your ſelfe can not denie to be an error contrary to the expreſſe trueth of God. And the forbidding of miniſters to remaine with their wiues contrarie to the ſixt canon of the Apoſtles. Either therefore a generall councell confirmed by a Pope hes erred, or els the Apoſtles hes erred in this canon, for they iudge them to bee the canons of the Apoſtles. Bellarm lib. 1. de conciliis cap. 5The firſt generall councell of Conſtantinople and the generall councell of Chal…edon whilk are both by their owne confeſſion approued by the Popes. And yet both theſe hes decreed that the Biſhop of Conſtantinople ſhould hauehave equall priuiledges of authoritie honor and dignitie in eccleſiaſticall affaires with the Biſhop of Rome, ſaue only the firſt place or ſeate the whilk by their owne confeſſion is an error. Therefore either lawful general councels confirmed by the Pope, hes erred; or els the Pope is not the head of the Kirk, and hes not a preheminence of authoritie ouer the reſt, for they hauehave made the Biſhop of Conſtantinople equall with him, or els there ar two heads of their Kirk, the Biſhop of Rome, & the Biſhop of Conſtantinople, I omit the reſt. Auguſtine ſaies that prouinciall councels may be corrected by generall councels, and of generall councels the former may be amended by the later, De baptiſme contra Donatiſtas lib. 2. cap 3if they may be mended then they may erre. And here he ſpeaks not of a matter of fact but of a matter of faith, for he ſpeakes of the baptiſme of heretickes. Now to conclude ſeing the Kirks in all ages, before the law, in the time of the law, and in the time of grace, yea and the Apoſtles and Peter himſelfe hes erred; and ſeing the Kirk of Rome that claimes this priuiledge of not erring aboue all other Kirks, hes erred alſo, and that not only her people whilk they call Laicks, but alſo her clergie ſeuerally & together in councels, aſwell prouinciall as generall. And ſeing the head whilk as they ſay is the rock and foundation of the Kirk hes erred in life, in office, in matters of faith and religion, not as priuate men only, but as Popes, both by themſelues alone, as alſo with their councels, aſwel prouincial as general. Seing, I hope I hauehave proued all theſe things ſufficiently, then may I not with the iudgement of al men ſafely conclude, that that maine piller wherupon the whole weight and piller of your religion depends (that the Kirk cannot erre) that it is an error, and ſuch a dangerous and damnable error, whereupon all the errors of your religion is builded, that whoſoeuer will beleue it, they haſard the endleſſe ſaluation of their ſoules. Ground then (chriſtian reader) thy ſaluation not vponupon this, that the Kirk cannot erre: for that is falſe: but vponupon this, that as long as ſhe ſtickes to the word of God written in the olde and new Teſtament ſhe erres not, & when ſhe ſwerues and it were but an inche braid from the Scripture, then ſhe erres. And therefore two learned Papiſtes a)De examinat. part. 1. conſid. 5.Gerſon and Panormitan affirmes the one ſaith ſimplici non authorizato ſed excellenter in ſacris literis erudito &c. b)Extra de elect. cap. Significaſtithat is, that more credite is to be giuen to one vnlearned & ſimple, but yet excellently beſene in the holie write, in a poynt of doctrine: nor to the Pope. And ſuch a learned man ſaies he ought to oppone himſelfe to a general councel, if he perceiue the greater part to decline to the contrarie of the Goſpel either of mallice or of ignorance. The other ſaith that more credite is to be giuen to an vnlearned and ſimple man that bringes for him the Scripture, nor to a whole generall councell. And this for anſwer to the teſtimonies of Scripture whilk yee cited.
Now, as concerning the fathers teſtimonies whilk ye bring in, they will ſerue you no further nor the Scripture hes done, for they will goe no further with you nor this that the Kirk of Chriſt and his couenant with her ſhall endure for euer, the whilk we grant, and they that will read them will finde them ſo. And if yee proue anie further out of them it ſhall bee anſwerd by Gods grace, for it were too faſhions to the reader to ſet downe here the particular ſayings of euerie one of them. And if ye had formed your arguments out of them, I ſhould hauehave formed my anſwer by the grace of God to euerie one of them. And this much concerning your ground, and the proofes of it. Now I come to that whilk ye gather of it.