Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 48
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
Theſe and many the like new renewed hereſies by the Miniſters, was old condemned hereſies in the primitiue Kirk of the former heretickes, as teſtifies the ancient Fathers: and therefore this is a true argument. What euer was hereſie in old times is hereſie yet, and the defenders thereof hereticks, as they were of olde: but theſe former heades that I hauehave ſet downe, with many the like was hereſies in olde times, and the defenders thereof heretickes, as teſtifies the auncient Fathers: Therefore they are hereſies yet, & the defenders thereof heretickes.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
Now heere was all the cauſe (Chriſtian reader) that made (Maiſter Gilbert) ſo oft to cry out of vsus, that wee renued old condemned hereſies, whereof ſome are ſik as wee our ſelues condemne, and ſome are ſik whilk doe better aggree vntounto themſelues, nor vntounto vsus: & ſome hereſies he forceth vponupon vsus whilk wee neuer taught nor maintayned: and ſome are ſik whilk are not hereſies indeede, but aggreable to the Scriptures of God. So that if we erre in theſe, ſuffer vsus to erre with Ieſus Chriſt and his Apoſtles. Now to anſwer to your argument whilk ye bring. What euer was hereſie in olde times, is hereſie yet, and the defenders thereof heretickes. I anſwer, if ye define hereſie to be an error obſtinately maintained againſt the Scriptures of God: I graunt your propoſition. But if ye define hereſies in generall, to be whatſomeuer any one Father or Doctor, or ſome more hes rebuked as an hereſie; then I deny it, for ſundrie of the fathers hes maintained errors themſelues againſt the Scripture, and hes accuſed ſome doctrine to bee hereſies, whilk hes bene aggreeable to the trueth of God, whilk you will not deny, I hope. For if you would, I could proue it both of the Fathers, Councels, and your owne Popes. Now to your aſſumption. But theſe former heads, ſay ye, whilk ye hauehave ſet downe with manye the like was hereſies in olde tymes, and the defenders thereof hereticks, as teſtifieth the aunciēt Fathers. I anſwere that ſome of theſe are hereſies indeede, and we abhorre and condemne them more nor yee, and ſome of theſe as falſlie laide to our charge, and ſome of theſe are not hereſies indeede, but aggreable to the Scripture. And therefore, your concluſion fals not vponupon vsus, who hes renewed no olde condemned hereſie, and therefore is not heretickes. And where you ſaye many other like. I anſwere: It is true they are like, for they are both calumnies and horrible vntruths, and lyes as theſe hes bene, whereof one day ye ſhall make anſwer to the great God that Iudgeth the quick and the dead. But the pit whilk you …gged for others you hauehave fallen in it your ſelfe: for certainly in this you doe as theeues does, who the better to eſchew the crime of theft whilk is iuſtly laide to their charge, and that they may the more eaſily eſcape in a fraye, doth cry out and ſhout out vponupon others, common theeues, common theeues. Euen ſo do you: for theſe crimes whereof yee are guiltie your ſelues you falſly charge vsus with. Therefore that all men may ſe that you are the men who hes renewed the olde condemned hereſies, I will not do, as yee hauehave done to vsus, that is eyther to lay to your charge ſik hereſies as yee maintaine not, or ſik thinges to be hereſies whilk are not hereſies indeede, whilk ye did to vsus. But in this I will deale ſincearelye with you, faining nothing neither of them nor of you.
1. Simoniani, worſhipped the image of Simon and Selenes, Ederus in Baby, pag, 5,whoſe hereſie they followed: ſo doeth your religious orders worſhip the image of theſe, who were firſt authors of their orders.
2. The Baſilidians worſhipped Images, Irenaeus lib, c. 23.and vſed inuocations, ſo doe you.
3. Ireneus lib, 1, ….3.24.Carpocrates had ſome painted Images in great eſtimation, both of others, as alſo of Chriſt: So doe the Papiſtes paint Chriſt, and ſayes that his forme was painted by Luke the Euangeliſt.
4. The old Idolaters did excuſe their idolatry, Auguſt, in Pſal, 113, in, con, 2, & Lactan, l, 2. c, 2that they did not worſhip the Images, but the thing repreſented by the image: ſo doe you excuſe your idolatrie.
5. Iren, lib, 1, c, 21,It was the cuſtome of the old idolaters to afflict and whip their owne bodies, that they might pleaſe their owne Gods, ſo doe ſome of you nowe.
6. Iren, lib, 6, c, …,It was their cuſtome alſo to light candles at noone dayes, in the time of their ſeruice, ſo doe you.
7. Baſilidiani, and Carpocratiani kept ſecret their doctrines, Iren, lib, 1, c, 23 Epiph, haereſ, 24.counting all other men dogs and ſwine: ſo doe you keep ſecret your myſteries from the common people, and will not ſuffer the Scriptures to be read of all: leaſt, ſay ye, precious pearles be caſt before ſwine.
Iren. lib. 1. cap. 188. Marcoſij they ſpake ſome Hebrew words in Baptiſme, to aſtoniſhe and afray the hearers: but you are worſe, who in all your ſeruice ſpeakes nothing but a vnknowne language: and that, ſay you, to make there myſteries to be had in greater reuerence.
Auguſt. de hereſ. cap. 16. Epiph. hereſ. 36.9. The Heracleonites annointed their dead with oile, balme, and water ſuperſtitiouſlie, and ſo doe you.
Epip. …er. 42 Auad quod vult c. 2710. Marcion and the Pepuzians hereticks, permitted wemē to baptize, ſo doe you.
Ep…ph. her. 19 an te Ch…iſtum.11. The Oſſenes taught, that it was not needfull that prayers ſhould be made in a knowne language: ſo doe you: and therefore your praiers are in Latine.
Theodoret. diuin dec et. cap. de Bapt.12. The Meſſalians affirmed Baptiſme only to ſerue for the waſhing away of the ſinnes going before it, ſo doe you.
Epiph. hereſ. 4613. The Tatians and ſundry other heretickes affirmed marriage impure: ſo doth your Pope Siricius in their Prieſts. Gratianus epiſt. 82. cap. Propoſuiſti.
14. The Manichees damned marriage in their elect and perfite, but ſuffered it in the reſt: ſo doe the Papiſts, in their Prieſts and religious men they damne it, Auguſt. epiſt. 74.but they doe tollerate it in the laicks: 1. Timot. 4.1.2.3.and yet the ſpirit of God calles it, a doctrine of Diuels to forbid marriage.
15. The Manichees they had the Communion vnderunder one kinde: Leo ſerm. 8. de …uadrageſi….ſo doth the Papiſticall Kirk. The Councell of Conſtance ſo decreed it, againſt the Scriptures, with theſe heretickes. Siklike their Faſting and your Faſting is alike: for they made choiſe of meates, and abſtained from fleſhe: but yet vſed their delicates, and ſo doe you.
16. The Manichees affirmed there was two beginnings: ſo doth Auguſtinus Steuchus a Papiſt, in ſua coſmopoea, in principio Geneſ. where he ſayes, that the Chryſtalline heauen is coeternal with God. The whilk if it be true, then certainly it is God: for that whilk is without beginning is God, & ſo there are two gods. If Caluint or any of vsus had written ſik, how would heauen & earth hauehave bene filled with cries againſt vsus?
Epiph. hereſ. 48.17. Montanus an heretick receaued the whole Scripture, but yet he denied that it contained all doctrine needfull to ſaluation: ſo doth the Papiſts: & from this error ſprings their Traditions, their Ceremonies infinite in nomber, partlye Iewiſhe, partly Ethnicke.
18. Apollo. apud Euſeb. lib. 5. c. 17.This Montanus was the firſt who preſcriued certaine Lawes of Faſting, the Scripture appointing no ſik thing: ſo doth the Papiſts, their faſtings are vponupon their prefixt and ſet dayes.
19. Tertul. de a…im… in fir….Montanus taught that ſmall faults was to be ſuffered for after this life neither was the ſoules to be deliuered from the priſon, till they had paied the vtmoſte farthing. So doth the Papiſts alſo.
20. Siklike the doctrine of the Montaniſts was, In ib. de anima & Tert. de co…. milius.that Abrabams boſome was beſide Hel, or in the vppermoſt part of hel.
21. That the Patriarckes before the comming of Chriſt, was in Hell.
22. That onlie the Martyres ſoules goes immediatly to Paradiſe.
23. That praiers and oblations ſhoulde be made for the dead.
24. That extreame vnction ſhuld be giuē after Baptiſm.
25 That the ſigne of the Croce ſhould be vſed, all whilk your Kirk hes renued.
26. Helceſaitae made two Chriſts: one aboue, Theodore…another beneath: ſo doth your Kirk make two Chriſts: one in heauen hauing a true natural bodie with his owne eſſentiall properties, in a certaine place, viſible: another in earth, made of the bread and wine, with all the eſſential properties of a true bodie, inuiſible, in the Sacrament.
27. Sampſaei, kept the duſt of the feete, Epip. haereſ. 53. & haereſ. 19. ant… Chriſtum.and the ſpittle of two wemē whilk they worſhipped as Goddeſſes, whilk they affirmed did ſerue to cure diſeaſes, and whilks they vſed as amulets: ſo doth your Papiſticall Kirk, keepe the relickes of Saints, worſhips them, and carries them about, as ſeruing either to preſerue, or to recouer health. The like alſo was the ſuperſtition of the Oſſens.
28. Cathars gloried in the merites of their workes, Iſid. Etymol. lib. &c. de h…efib. Chriſtiand affirmed that they were made righteous, vvith an inherent righteouſneſſe. The Papiſticall Kirk in this hereſie goes beyond them: for both they glorie of their workes, & affirmes that we are iuſtified with an inherent righteouſneſſe.
Aug ad Quodvult, cap. 39 Epiph. haereſ, 3829. The heretickes called Angelici, and alſo the Caim, they worſhipped Angels, ſo doe the Papiſts.
30. The hereticks called Apoſtolici, admitted none in their nomber, Auguſt. de haereſ. cap. 40 Epiph. haereſ. 61but theſe who vowed wilfull pouertie, and chaſtity. So the Papiſts admits none to their religious orders, but ſik, who vowes both.
Augqſt ex Philaſtrio quo. undam cap. 68.31. There were ſome heretickes who went bare-footed, ſo doe the Franciſcan Friers, & theſe who are called Cordigeri.
32. The Donatiſts denied that the true preaching of the word was a note of the pure Kirk: and therefore Auguſtine in ſundrie places calles them back to the Scriptures: ſo doeth your Kirk.
Epiph. haereſ. 7433. The Collirydians worſhipped Marie, and therefore they are called Idolaters by Epiphanius, ſo doe the Papiſts.
Epiph. in Panoplia.34. Armenij worſhipped the croce of our Lord, and therfore they were called foreign that is, worſhippers of the croce, ſo doth the Papiſts.
35. The Pelagians affirmed Adam would hauehave died, ſuppoſe he had not ſinned: ſo doth Auguſtinus Steuchus, a Papiſt of great name in his annotations vponupon the 2. of Geneſis. Hee ſayes, Death is natural, and ſinne is not the cauſe of it, and the infants and Adam would hauehave died, ſuppoſe they had not ſinned.
36. Alſo, they affirmed that after the fall there was left in mana fredome to will good, and ſo doth the Papiſts, ſuppoſe they differ in this, that the Papiſtes ioynes grace to be a preveener and worker with free-will.
37. The Pelagians affirmed that the Gentiles might by Philoſophie hauehave knowne God, and bene ſaued. So Andradius a Papiſt, lib. 3. orthod. explic. ſo Catharinus a Papiſt, who was preſent at the councel of Trent affirmes in his commentary vponupon 1. Timoth. 4. That ſome vnfaithfull men may be ſaued, whilk is as mekle to ſay, as ſome may be ſaued who knowes not God, nor Chriſt, whilk is horrible, and more then Pelagian.
38. Alſo, they affirmed that a man may fulfill the Lawe, and be perfitelie righteous, ſo doe all the Papiſts.
39. They affirme that infants wants originall ſinne: ſo doth Pighius a Papiſt in his booke of controuerſies, In 3 parte ſum. mae queſt. 27. art. 7.in the cō trouerſie of original ſinne, that in them that are baptized, original ſinne is taken away: and he writes alſo that Marie was borne with out originall ſinne: and Thomas of Aquine writes that Marie had the fulneſſe of …ll graces, whilk is to equall her with God. For only in him the fulneſſe of all dwelleth: and many other hereſies of the Pelagians hes the Papiſts renewed.
40. A kinde of heretickes called Anomi, taught that the obedience to the Law was not needfull, ſo doth the Papiſts. Firſt, in affirming, that concupiſcence without conſent is not ſinne, & is not forbidden in the Law. Secondly, ſome of them ſayes, as Sylueſter Prierias, It is honeſty (ſays he) but not of neceſſity that God ſhould be loued aboue all things. And ſo a)De theolog. practit. tractat 3. cap. 16 concl. 1. numer. 11.Molanus another Papiſt affirmeth. The ſame b)cap. 8 conclu. 3 numer. 19.Molanus alſo ſayes, that it is not cō manded of God that we ſhould pray for our enemies in ſpecial: and yet the Scripture ſayes moſt plainlie, Pray for them whilk perſecute you. And in c)cap. 16. conc. 3.another place he affirmes that it is not commanded that we ſhould ſalute our enemies with a friendly and louing hart. And alſo he d)Tract. 2. cap. 20. concluſ. 2ſayes, That he who doth not tell to him who is ignorant, his manifeſt defect is not vnrighteous. And againe e)cap. 23. conc. 5he ſaies He who giues counſell to doe a leſſe euill to eſchew a greater, ſinnes not. Siklike contrar the ſecond command they vniuerſally teach, that the worſhip of Images is no break of it. And they call the Croce their only hope. What horrible blaſphemie is this? And f)In his booke de reſidentia cont. Cathar.Torrenſis a Papiſt, obiected to Catharinus another Papiſt, that he denied the Law of Moſes to be Gods law, and the precepts of Paule to be Chriſts precepts. Moe alſo I might bring, but theſe will ſuffice. Nowe of theſe things I may moſt iuſtly conclude, that your religion hes renewed many of the old condemned hereſies. And as you made one argument, ſo I will make another. What euer was hereſie in old times, is hereſie yet, and the defenders thereof heretickes: this you cannot deny, becauſe it is your owne propoſition: but theſe former heades whilk I hauehave ſet downe (wherein I hauehave vſed no calumny as ye hauehave done) was hereſies in olde times, and the defenders thereof heretickes, as witneſſes the auncient Fathers: Therfore they are hereſies yet, and the defenders thereof heretickes. And ſo by your owne argument many points of your religion, are old condemned hereſies, and your ſelues heretickes, who doth defend them.
Maiſter Iohns concluſion.
One thing whilk I hope will cut off all controuerſie, I offer to prooue, the Pope to be the Antichriſt. And if this be true, then all men that profeſſes him, ſecretly or openly, as it is ſaid in the Reuel. 14. ſhall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche, preacher of Chriſts Goſpell, at Kirkcudbright.