Reply Against Gilbert Brown, Section 47
Maiſter Gilbert Browne.
7 Valentinus the heretick denied the very bodie of Chriſt to be in the ſacrament, as m)lib. 4. cap. 34.Irenaus ſayes.
8 Symon Magus, Marcion, and the Manichees held, that God compelled man both to doe euill and good, as n)Ha…eſ. 46.S. Auguſtine, Vincentius Lar…nenſi…, o)In recognit.S Clement of Rome, and pHaereſ 42.…piphanius hes in then works whilk is the doctrine of the moſt learned of the Proteſtants, as Melanchton, Caluine, *In lib. de praedeſt cont. Ca…uiſycophant.BeZa and others.
9 The Nouatians denied Pennance, as q)Haereſ. 38.S. Auguſtine affirmes.
10 The Manichees denied the neceſſitie of Baptiſme, as the ſame r)Haereſ. 46.S. Auguſtine reports.
11 Aerius, Euſtachius, and the Manichees condemned faſting dayes ordained by the Kirk, as s)Epiſt. …3. cap. 4.Leo, t)Haereſ. 75.Epiphanius, the councel of u)In prefat.Gangra, and as x)lib. …0. cap. 3. cont. Fauſt Manich.S Auguſtine recordes.
12 The Manichees vſed to faſt on the Sonday only, as y)Haereſ.S. Auguſtine, & z)ſcr. 4. de qua.S Leo witneſſes Read for this alſo Concil. Gang cap. 13. & de conſecrat. diſt. 3. Ne quis. Ignatius ad Philip. de conſecrat. diſtinct. 3. Ieiunium.
13 The Pepuſians and Collyridians denied holy orders, and made it no Sacrament, as a)Haereſ 4.24.S. Auguſtine and b)Haereſ. 44.7….Epiphanius writes.
14 The Pelagians denied that confeſſion ſhould be made to a Prieſt, as our c)Hect. Boc…. lib 9. cap. 19.Chronicle writer teſtifies. They deny alſo that Baptiſme was neidfull to bairnes or infants, as d)Haereſ. 88.S Augustine reports.
15 The Donatiſts denied the order of Monkes, and other religious perſons, as e)In pſal. 132,S. Auguſtine, and f)Tom. 5, againſt the diſpraiſer of the monaſticall life.S. Chryſoſtome writes.
Maiſter Iohn Welſche his Reply.
Whether Valentinus taught ſo or not, I contend not: but the queſtion is of this doctrine, of the reall preſence, whether it be contrare to Gods word, or not; the whilk I hauehave prooued ſufficiently before in the fourth point of doctrine: and ſo the denying of it is no hereſie. But yet it appeares not by this teſtimonie of Irenaeus, whilk ye cite heir, that he taught ſik doctrine.
As for the 8. hereſie, it is a calumnie to aſcriue it to vsus, for Melanchton, Caluine, and Beza hes no ſik doctrine. You are not aſhamed, Maiſter Gilbert, of impudent lying.
As for the 9. of Nouatus hereſie, that is a calumnie to aſcriue it to vsus. I or Nouatus denied that there was any place of repentance to theſe, who after they were baptiſed, fel from the faith, by ony infirmitie, or violence of perſecution, as Epiphanius teſtifies of him that hee ſaide, No man who hes falne after Baptiſme can any more obtaine merciemercy. But our doctrine is contrare to this: for we teach that there is place to repentāce for any ſinne, except the ſinne againſt the holy Ghoſt, whilk is euer puniſhed with finall impenitencie.
As for the 10. of the Manichees hereſie, their doctrine was as Auguſtine ſayes there, that Baptiſme ſerued nothing for ſaluation to anye: and that none, who followed their ſect, ſhould be baptized. and therefore they broght in a contempt of Baptiſme, whilk is contrarie our doctrine. For we teache that Chriſtians and their children is to be baptized: and that the contempt of it is damnable, ſuppoſe not the want of it.
As for the 11. and 12. hereſies, we contemne not faſtings that are appointed by the Kirk, for lawful cauſes: but we deny that they ſhould be tied to certaine and prefixed dayes, as your Kirk does: and we thinke it no hereſie to faſt on the Lords day, more then other dayes: both to ſtirre vp our repentance, and to make vsus more meet to holy and ſpirituall exerciſes, becauſe it is not contrary to the word of God. As for Leo his Epiſtle, it is wrong quoted, for it ſhould be Epiſt. 91. and there faſting on the Lords day is not like ours: for they faſted on the Lordes day, becauſe they beleeued not that Chriſt was a true man, as Leo in that ſame place teſtifies whilk you will not ſay your ſelfe that we do, for we acknowledge him to be a true man.
As for the 13. hereſie of the Pepuſians and Collyridians, their doctrine was that wemen might be Biſhops, and Elders, & might vſe theſe publick functions, as theſe places whilk ye hauehave quoted, teſtifies: whilk is not our doctrine, but rather yours, who permits wemen to baptize, in caſe of neceſsity. That they denied orders to be a Sacrament, there is no ſik thing to be found in theſe places whilk ye quote heir.
As for the 14. hereſie of the Pelagians, if they denied that theſe who were accuſed of any ſcandalous offence, & guilty thereof; ſhould make their confeſsion of it to God, his Miniſters, & the Congregation, for to take away the offence of it, then they erred, and our doctrine and practiſe condemnes this: but if they denied the abſolute neceſsity of your auricular confeſsions, then is it no errour, becauſe there is na ſik thing commanded in the whole Scriptures of God. Nowe as for the teſtimonie of Boetius, I hauehave not ſeene it. As for their ſecond hereſie concerning Baptiſme, they taught, as Auguſtine reportes in that place, that Baptiſme was not needfull to children, becauſe they were borne without original ſinne, as they taught whilk is an hereſie indeede: but this is a calumnie to aſcriue it to vsus, for we teach that children are borne in originall ſin, and ſo ſhoulde be baptized. And ſurelie this hereſie rather aggrees to you, who teaches that Marie was not borne in originall ſinne, and therefore ſhe needed not to be baptized.
As for the laſt of the Donatiſts, denying the order of Monks. I anſwere: firſt, your Papiſticall and Idolatrous Monkes, Bellari 2. de indulgentusare farre different from theſe whilk Auguſtine and Chryſoſtome defended, and theſe of the Primitiue Kirk. For firſt they were bound to no preſcript forme of diet, apparell, or any thing elſe, by ſolemne vowes of wilfull pouertie, and perpetual cō tinencie, as yours are, next, the former Monks remained in the order of priuate men, and laicks, and had no thing to do with Eccleſiaſticall charges, whilk was afterward broken by Pope Boniface the 4. anno 606. But yours are not ſo: they hauehave Eccleſiaſticall charges, and are more then priuate men. And laſt of all, ſuppoſe their kinde of life was mixed with ſome ſuperſtition, for the enuious man ſone ſowed the popple amongſt the good ſeede, and the myſtery of iniquity began ſone to worke: yet their religion was not defiled with Idolatrie, worſhipping of Images, praiers to Saints, opinion of merite, the ſacrifice of the Maſſe, and other abhominations wherewith your Papiſticall Monkes are defiled. Next I ſay, theſe Monkes and religious orders of yours, hes not their foundation within the foure corners of the Scripture of God.