The Christian Disputations, Dialogue 3 · Body of dialogue (3 of 3)

The Christian Disputations · Dialogue 3 · Body of dialogue (3 of 3)

p. 154Hillarius.

But how can it bée pleaſing and agréeable to God, to forſake and renounce Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, and the Chriſtianitie, for to make themſelues Panims or Iewes? Tell me Euſebius, if thou doe not thincke that the Chaldeans and Perſians are worthy to be accompted and taken for Idolaters, to baue had The fire y^• god of the chalde…s & Perſians…the fire in ſo great admiration y^t they hauehave worſhiped it as God?

Euſebius.

Who doubteth of that?

Hillarius.

Now what reaſon hauehave you for to excuſe your ſelfe of that ſame Idolatry, more lawfully then they?

Theophilus.

That Idolatry is the moſt auncient which hath bene almoſt amongeſt men, chiefely before that there was any vſe of Images: And I doubte not but that wée referre it, vntounto the Idolatry of the fire, followinge alſo the opinion of Sainct Hierome and of Hier. & Nicol. in Geneſ. 12. d. 27. Tareh. Abraham. Cal. Rod lec. aut, li, 15. ca. 15Gen 12Lyra, that which Moſes calleth, Vr of the Chaldees.

For notwithſtanding that that name is taken for the place, wherein Tarch the Father of Abraham dwelled, yet neuertheleſſe it is very lyke that that place hath taken his name of that fire, which the Chaldeans worſhipped, as wée ſée dayly that many Townes and Villages dooe take their name of the Gods, Sainctes and Patrons whiche are there adored & honoured, as are S. Claudus, S. Hippolite, Sainct Denis, Sainct Iames, & others innumerable. For Vr, ſignifieth in the Hebrew and Chaldee tongue, fire and furnayſe. And vntounto that agréeth well that which is ſpoken off in the booke of Ioſua, that Tareh the Father of Abraham was an Idolater, although Ioſua. 24. a. 2Josh 24there bee no mencion made that hée worſhypped Images and Idolls: But it was bicauſe he was defiled and infected with that Idolatry of the Chaldees, for the which Abraham departed from his countrey, in not worſhypping the fire in ſtéede of the true God.

Hillarius.

That Idolatry hath not bene onelyonly among the Chaldees and Perſians: But it is alſo ſpredde abroade amonge other Nations, who of longe time hauehave in lyke manner worſhypped the fire vnderunder the name of Veſta, who was in greate honour and eſtimation amonge the Troyans before the warre of Troy, and from thence hath bene wyth the other Gods, caryed into Italy by Aeneas, and ſo came vppe the cuſtome to kéepe a continuall fire in his Temple at Rome within a Bore or Pyxe, as they doe nowe the holye Liui. lt. 1. & 5 Macro. Satur lt. t. c. t. 12 plu. in Num. ex Camd Ouid. Faſt. 1 &. 6.hoaſte. For that cauſe the Poetes manye times dooe call it, the Troyans fire, and the fire of Laomedon, the founder and buylder of Troy. The Greekes alſo dyd the lyke in Athens and Delphos. And p. 155Seruius witueſſeth that they kept it alſo in the Temple of Iupiter and of Minerua, by which they woulde vnderſtande the earthly heauen and the celeſtiall fire. And St…abo Stral…. li. 9hath written almoſt the lyke, that is to ſay, that there was an olde Temple of Minerua Poliade in which was kept a Lampe continually burning, and there was a Couent of Nounes, I thincke that Pope Sabinianus dyd Plat. in vit. Sab…nt Cal. aul. lec. li, 15. ca. 14.take example of the ſamo, when that he conſtituted and ordeined that Lampes ſhoulde be continually kept burninge in the Temples, as Platine and Volaterran dooe witneſſe.

Theophilus.

If they had the lyke that of which Sainct Auguſtine maketh mencion, which was inextinguible in a certeine Temple of Venus, whiche the Panims Auguſt. de cin Des. l…. 21. c. 6had, they woulde make of it a great myracle, and would eſteeme it for a goodly relike. For he ſayth, y^t it contimeth alwaies burning in y^e aire abroad, w^cout euer being put out or quenched, eyther with the winde, water, or W any thing that one can do to it. Therfore it was called inextinguible.

Hillarius.

It muſt be, if that be true, y^t it wae artyffcially made, or elſe by magycall Arte. But I thinke that they woulde make as greate an accompt if they had ſuch fire, as y^t ſame which the Greeks kept in the Temple of Apollo in Arges, the which they dyd ſaye, ſell from keauen. I demaunde of thée friende Theophilus, what thinckeſt thou hathe bene the firſt cauſe of that Idolatry.

Theophilus.

I cannot perceyue that they hauehave any other cauſe, but the ſame whiche hath ingendered all the other Gods amonge the Panyms, which hauehave Phin. li, 1. ca. 1delfied and called Gods, all the creatures of whome men dooe féele, ayde and helpe. Seeinge then the great poritie whiche is in the fire, and the greate vitlytie that men dyd receyue thereby, and howe neceſſarye it was Idolatry of the ſire & of the Planets. Lue. Flor, in Numa. Flat, de Pbilo. dogm. VA in Camillo.vntounto mans lyfe, and howe it repreſented the fires and celeſtiall lyghfes, of the ſunne and of other planets and ſtarres (whome mey hauehave alſo …olden for Gods, bycauſe of their greate beautie and vtilytie) they dyd in lyke manner thincke that they had iuſt occaſion to holde and take the fire for a God, whiche they dyd ſée to bée of one ſelfe nature wyth the celeſtiall fire, whiche alwayes moueth and gyueth lyfe vntounto all thinges as the ſoule of them. They had yet certeine other occaſions, in that that the holye Scripture oftentimes compareth God to the fire, and calleth hym, a conſuminge fire: and that God appeareth ſometime: in the lykeneſſe God compared to the fire. Deut. 4. d. 24. Hebr. 12. g. 19. Exo. 3. a. 2. Act. 7. d. 31. 3. Reg. 18. f. 33Deut 4Heb 12Exod 3Acts 71 Kgs 18of fire, and that the fire came downe from heauen oftentymes, for to conſume the ſacryfices of the holye Patriarches and Prophetes. They had more iuſt occaſion to confirme themſelues in that opinion, and more goodlyer appearaunce for to allow their religion, then the Papiſtes hauehave for their Images and Idolls. For wée cannot denye, but that the fire is a lyuelye Image of God, which ſheweth foorth and reproſenteth vntounto vsus it ſelfe more lyuely, then all the Idolls which euer were in the worlde. And therefore God woulde appeare in the Rxo. 3. 2. 2. Act. 7. d. 31.Acts 7lykeneſſe of fire, and repreſent hys gyftes and graces, his vertue and power by the ſame: the which he woulde neuer dooe by Idolls and Images, and woulde neuer appeare in them, nor ſpeake, nor doe any vertue or myracles by them, but hath lefte the ſame for the Dyuell, Images the inſtruments of the Diuelwho is ſerued wyth ſuch inſtrumentes, the whiche God hath altogether reiected and curſed, and hathe defamed them by defamed tytles, calling them filthyneſſe, vanytie, The titles of y^e Images.lying, nothing, abhomination and other like names, which oftentimes are rehearſed in the bookes of the Prophets. Furthermore had not the Chaldeans and Perſians good occaſion to preferre it aboue all the other. For ſith that all the other were either of wood and of ſlone, or of golde, ſilver or other mettalles, he did melte, burne and conſume The povver of the fire about the others gods.all, inſomuch that there was not one, whiche coulde reſiſt him.

Hillarius.

Xerxes hing of Perſia declared it very well Xetxes.vntounto the Greekes, when hée came into Greece wyth ſo The temples burned In Aſiagreat an army. For hée burned all the Temples, Idolles p. 156and Images of Aſia, except the ſame of Diana the Goddeſſe Solin. ca. 53. Temple of Diana the Epheſtā Act. 19. e. 24 Strab. …. 14, Ph. li. 16. c. 41. &. …. 36. ca. 34Acts 19of the Epheſians, bicauſe of the excellent beautie of the ſame, and for the cunning buylding which was therein, that it was compted among the ſeauen moſte chiefeſt workes which was in the worlde, which for their admirable and exceſſiue beautie, building and cunning, were called the ſeauen miracles of the worlde.

Thomas.

Wherefore did Xerxes the ſame?

Hillarius.

Bicauſe that the Perſians had no Temples, The Perſians without Temple and Images.nor Images, and dyd thincke that one dyd greate iniurye vntounto the maieſtie of God, which is infinite, to chutte and limite him by the worke made with mans hande, In lyke manner Plutarch doth write, that the Romaines hauehave bad their Temples wythout Images (after that the citie In Num…. Dionyſ. Halicar. in Numa.was builded) 170. yeares, bicauſe that they were taught by the king Numa, that God was an inuiſible ſpirite, which neuer was created. And notwithſtanding that they doe honour the fire vnderunder the name of the Goddeſſe Veſta, yet neuertheleſſe they neuer made Image for to repreſent the one nor the other, but were content to kéepe that holy fire, as hath bene ſayde, and as it appeareth by the witneſſe of Ouid, ſaying.

Within the Temple fire remaind,Ould. Fast. …

and ſtill vnquencht did lye,

The fire and Veſta wanted forme,

to ſhew their ſhapes thereby.

And a little afterwards he ſayth.

By Arte of Syracuſia framd,

there hangeth in the aire,

A little globe that repreſents,

the forme of heauens faire.

Thomas.

If the Perſians did take the for God, they did not altogether without reaſon, if they would not hauehave locked & ſhut him vp. For he doth open the gates, although y^t one would ſhut him vp & knoweth to go out eueryevery way.

Hillarius.

The experience hath bene well ſhewed in the Temple of Diana the Epheſian. For notwythſtandinge that Xerxes ſpared it, yet neuertheleſſe his GOD The temple of Diana burned Gehlia. Heroſtrotus Soli. ca. 53woulde not ſpare it, thorowe whoſe ayde Heroſtratus dyd bringe it to paſſe, who dyd ſet it on fire, and bourned it altogether.

Thomas.

Wherefore dyd hée that?

Hillarius.

Hée hath confeſſed hymſelfe, that hée dyd it for couetouſneſſe of renowne, to that ende that men Couetous of renovvneſhould ſpeake of hym. For hée neuer dyd any vertuous acte whereby hée myght gette a name. And therefore hée tooke vppon him to doe ſuch an acte, to the ende that the remembraunce of his name ſhoulde bée eternall amougeſt men.

Theophilus.

Heroſtratus dyd let the Epheſians well to vnderſtande, that the fire had more vertue then their Diana.

Hillarius.

Thou vnderſtandeſt not the cauſe, and howe the Panims dyd excuſe the Goddeſſe. Thou oughteſt to vnderſtande, that the verye ſame night that The natiuitle cf Alexander Olympiss.Heroſtratus dyd ſette the Temple of Diana on fire, Olympias the mother of greate Alexander, was in hauayle wyth child, & bicauſe that Diana was gone thether for to helpe hir trauaile to bringe foorth Alexander, ſhée coulde not defende hir Temple. For thou doeſt very well know that woemen dyd call vppon hir in their trauayle. And therefore ſhée béeinge abſent, and buſied aboute Olympias and hir ſonne Alexander, ſhée coulde not helpe hir Temple nor reſiſt the God of the Perſians, no more then the Gods of our Prieſtes can at this daye reſiſt it. For that cauſe the Chaldeans dyd meruaylouſly beaſt themſelues againſt all other Patyons, ſayinge, that there were none that had ſuche a God as theirs, which conſumeth all other. Yet neuertheleſſs if the tale or hiſtorye bée true whiche Suidas Suiadas in dict Canop. God Canopus.dyd tell of a Prieſte of Canopus, hée played or ſhewed them a fine feate, of whome hée hath written that the Prieſt of god Canopus which was adored and worſhipped of ſome in Aegypt, ſeeing the arrogancie and pride of the p. 157Chaldeans, fearing alſo to looſe his good théere and fare, The crafte and diſceite of the Prieſt of Canopus. Cal. Rho. lec. aut. li. 15. c. 15.if the maieſty of his God were diminiſhed, deuiſed this crafte and diſcepte. In Aegypt they vſed to make waterpottes of earth, hauing many holes for to diſtill the water and to make it more pure, bicauſe that the waters of Aegypt are much troubled and full of mudde and ſlime that Prieſt did take one of thoſe water pottes, and ſtopped ſubtilly with ware all the holes thereof, afterwardes painted it with diuerſe coloures, ſo that one could not perceiue it. That béeing done, filled it with water, afterwards did cut of the head of an olde Image, the which hée ſet vpō that great water pol, ſo cunningly that it was like to his god Canopus. After that, the Chaldeans came, who would proue the power of y^t fire of their God, againſt the God Canopus. The fire thē béeing kindled, and Canopus béeing caſt into it, after that manner and ſorte as he was trimmed and apparayled by his Prieſt. Nowe whileſt that on either ſides men did behold which of thoſe two Gods ſhould hauehave the victory, the wax with whiche the holes were ſtopped, féeling the heat of the fire, did beginne to melt, & the water to droppe out, which quēched the fire. And ſo by that meanes Canopus got the victory thorow the craft of the Prieſt, and was iudged worthy of The victory of Canopusdiuine honours.

Thomas.

Behold a mery Ieſt to laught at, at Caſter.

Hillarius.

You laughe at it, but the holy fathers do ſay things which are not ſo good as that, and your preiſts do make miracles. which are not yet ſo ſubtile, by the which yet neuertheles the poore people are abuſed. But let vsus conſider a little wherein the Papiſts differ from the one The fire & … ter … gods of y^• Papiſts … on of the paſeall tire. Rat d. ui. off. li 6. Rab de benecer.and the other of whiche we hauehave ſpoken off, if they hauehave not the fyre and the water for their gods. For what doth ſignifie the benediction and conſecration of the Are which they make vponupon Caſter euen, with their magical ceremonies? For at the beginning of diuine ſeruice, all the ſice which is in the Temple muſt be put out. Afterwardes they muſt a newe, by ſtriking vppon a ſtone wyth a péece of ſtéele, or with a Chriſtall ſet againſt the ſunne: Afterwards they muſt kéepe it, not with al kinds of wood, but with the branches of the Vine. There is here more to doe then in the charmes of the Enchaunters. And to what ende do all thoſe ſorceries ſerue?

Euſebius.

Now dareſt thou ſo to blaſpheme and call the diuine ſeruice Sorcery? which was done to repreſent, The interpretatiō of y^e Benediction of y^e nevv neethat the fire of the olde law is put out, by the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſte, who hath accompliſhed and fulfilled all the ceremonies of the ſame, and he is the ſlone & the Chriſtall whiche hath bene ſtroken vppon the ſide, and hath kindled for vsus a new fyre of the holy Ghoſt.

Hillarius.

Mée thinkes that the interpretation ſhould be two true, if you ſaid that the ſame ſignifieth, that the Prieſts go about all that they can to quench the fire of the worde of God, which Ieſus Chriſt the light of the world, hath brought in the earth, for to take in hand a newe, and Luc. 12. g. 49. Iohn. 1. a 9 & 8. b. 9. a. 5. ler. 5. d. 14. & 23. ſ. 29Luke 12John 1for to make vsus, in ſteede of the Purgatorie, which is by y^t bloude of Ieſus Chriſt, a newe Ieſus Chriſte, and a newe Purgatory in fire, to the ende that all at one moment or inſtant do declare themſelues both Iewes and Panims.

Theophilus.

It is moſte true, that God commaunded The ſignification of the perpetuall fire of the burnt offring Leuit. 6. b. 13.Lev 6the Prieſts of the olde law, that the fire of the bournt offring or holocauſte ſhould be alwayes kept burning in the Temple. But that was to ſignifie, that the fire of Ieſus Chriſt, and his offring and ſacrifice is eternall, and ſufficient for to purge all the ſinnes of the world and that Heb. 9. c. 11. & 10. e. 11. 1. Pet. 4. c. 13Heb 91 Pet 4we ought all to bee pertakers of his croſſe & tribulations which are ſignified by the fire in the Scripture: and wée ought all to trauaile as much as lieth in vsus, to kéepe and mainteine that fire of Ieſus Chriſt: the euangelicall myniſtry and the faith in his death and paſſion in the Chriſtian Church. For aſmuch then as Ieſus Chriſt hath perfectly and wholy accomplſhed and fulfilled that whiche by that fyre was ſignified, & y^e it muſt be accompilſhed in vsus ſpiritually, not in outward appearance, what néed hauehave wee to inuent new ceremonies and new Iewiſhnes: were p. 158it not as good to kéepe them to the olde, ſith that they will play the Iewe with the Iewes?

Hillarius.

But which is worſe, ſo play the Panim with the Panims, of whom their manner of doings approcheth neerer then of the auncient Iewiſh lawes. For as Plutarke witneſſeth, in Athens & Delphos, where y^e Greekes Plutus in Num.in like manner do kéepe a perpetuall fyre, if peraduenture it were put or went out, they muſt kindle a new and very orange, taken from the Sunne. In like manner alſo hath Macrob. Satur. li. …. ca. 12 The new fire of the Panims Val. Max. li. 1. cap. 1. The fire of Veſta. Plut. in Camillo. ouid. Faſt. 6.Macrobius written, that the firſt day of Marche, the Romaines kindled a new fire vponupon the aulter of the Goddeſſe Veſta, the which fire muſte bee kept by the Meſtales, the nunues of Veſta alwayes burning in hir Temple, like vntounto ours at this day. Wherevnto agréeth in like manner the witnes of Ouid, ſaying.

Men ſay that when the holy fire

in temple ceaſt to burne.

It was the vſe from time to time

with new to ſerue the turne.

And if it happen that thorow their negligence it be put out, they ſhalbe greuoſly puniſhed.

Theophilus.

One may vanquyſh them by their owne confeſſion, that they hauehave not receiued thoſe traditiō of y^t Apoſtles. For they thēſelues confeſſe, that the cuſtome to bleſſe the Paſcall taper and ſuch manner of doings, hauehave The Paſchall Taper Rat. diui off. li. 6. Rab. de den. cer Zozmie and Theodorus The moſt puiſſaunt god of the Prieſtesbene inſtituted by Pope Zozme and Theodorus the firſt.

Hillarius.

We muſt not be abaſhed though they make great prouiſion both of Oyle & War for to kéepe alwayes y^t fire in their churches. For they hauehave no greater nor puiſſanter God then he, of whom onelyonly they demaimd aide, inuocate and call vponupon for to mainteine their Religion, & all their other Gods. For what other refuge hauehave they for to fight againſt the truth and to deſende lyings, but the Fagots and Fyre? Wherefore mee thinkes that they ſhoulde hauehave more reaſon, if they followed the example of the Perſians, who notwithſtanding that they condempned thoſe which had temples and Idols, yet The holy and …ered fire of the Perſias. …rs. Mark. t. cal. R…ls. lec. …. 8 aa. 2.neuertheleſſe they had a cuſtome, that the kings ſheulde cauſe the ſyre to bee caried before them uppon an Norſe backe, the whiche is called by the Niſtoriographers OriMaſda, that is to ſaye, the holy fire? or the ſacred ſyre.

They alſo caried it in proceſſion all abouts, in the ſame manner as the Papiſts did cary the holy hoaſten Chriſts day, and as the Pope cauſeth his God to be caried before him uppon a white ambling nagge, to the ende hee maye The holy ho… The pracction of the ſerſt. God and the ho y fir e.gee the more at his eaſe: altheugh that hée eſticme him ſelfe more worthy, ſith that he cauſeth himſelfe to bee carted of men, and his God of beaſtes. The pecple alſo bſed to adore and worſhippe that holy fire, as they doe at this day the holy hoaſt. And whe they do cary it in proceſſion. 365. Prieſts did go before him, to the ende there bee as many in number, as there be dayes in the yeare, doing the ſauie in the honour of the ſonne, who by his fyre giueth the light of the day in the earth. Therefore alſo they caried it with them in the warre. And when they muſte remoue the hoaſt, there was uppon the kings Tabernacle, a little Image of the ſunne, encloſed within a rounde hor of Chriſtall, whiche ſhined and gane a great light. When the proceſſion of the holy and eternall fyre began to march and go foorth, they caried if before all, uppon the Aulters of ſilurr the whithe the wiſeſt and holyeſt men whom they called pagitians, did follow. After them. 365. young men, beeing clothed in Purple and red, for to repreſent the colour of the fyre. I beleeue that after their erample, the Pope and the Cardinals are pet clothed in red, in witnes, that either they are men of bloud, beeing all bloudie with the bloude of the righſeous and poore innocents: or els that they are as a conſuming fyre in this world, which conſumeth all, for to make the poore faithfull feare, which will not conſent unto their blaſphemies and tyranny: or in ſigne and token that they are the Cookes & fyre bronds of hell, for do toſt and broyle the roore ſules, & that they hauehave the tharge of thoſe iuſernall firrs and of p. 159Purgatorie. There was in like manner in that proceſſiou, charets, hearſes and ſhrines, all tryumed and engraued in golde and ſiluer, for to carye and beare the other gods and their Images, the which they hauehave afterwards learned to make, as the other Panims by ſucceſſion of time did. There were alſo, which caried goodly rods and ſtaues of golde, as are the croſſes of our Abbots and Byſhoppes: and the ſtaues which they do cary in proceſſion, with the Croſſe. And thoſe were alſo clothed with white, as our Prieſts are. Wherefore ſith that our Prieſts do follow them almoſt in all things, mee thinketh that they ſhoulde hauehave more ſhew of appearance to kéepe the holye fire in the pyr or bor, and to worſhippe it and cauſe it to bée worſhiped, as theyr God y^t they hauehave made of ſtower. For this without the other, can hauehave no great vertue, ſith that the fore muſt defende them. Wherefore they do euidently declare, that they eſtéeme it more puiſſant and more ſtrong, ſith that they hauehave recourſe vntounto it. Wherefore one may wel aunſwere vntounto them, that which of old time hath bene aunſwered by a certeine man, of the pron and of the golde, who was demaunded whiche of them both was the ſtrongeſt.

Thomas.

Pée thinketh that it is the golde, for it doth The ſtrength of the gold and of Yren.all things.

Hillarius.

But what can the golde do without y^t yron? hath it not néede of the yron for to kéepe & defende it? For who is moſte ſtrongeſt, eyther hee whiche keepeth, or hée which muſt bee kept.

Thomas.

There is in th at a Sophiſtrie.

Hillarius.

There is no neede to alledge ſophiſtrie. For the thing is ſuche in beritie. There is nething but the fooliſh opinion & perſwaſion of men, which maketh them to iudge otherwiſe. For as Sainct Auguſtine ſaith, what Auguſtin,are all the mettals but earth? what difference is there then betweene the yron and the golde, but that the one is The golde palea blacker earth, and the other more yollow & pale? wherein he declareth that he is more fearefull then the vson.

Thomas.

It is not without cauſe that he is plae, for hee hath manye enemies whiche doe lye in wayte to take him.

Hillarius,

And therefore what ſhall hee doe, if hée hadue not the yron for to defende him? For the yron, defendeth him, and the yron taketh him, and whiche is more, of which ſhould one ſet beſt by, either of the yrou or of the golde? Can we aſwel labour and til the lande with the golde as with the yron, and make that whiche wée make of the yron?

Thomas.

It is moſte true we cannot. But yet neuerthe ignorance and fooliſh opinton of men, which eſtéeme it to be ſo, bicauſe that the coulour ſéemeth vntounto them more fairer and that it is not ſo plenty as yron? But take away the opinion, and it ſhall be but earth as the yron. Aſmuch may we ſay of the God of the Prieſtes, and of the fire. For I aſſure thee that if the ſyre dyd not make them to feare him, that it ſhould neuer hauehave come vntounto ſuch honour as it is come vntounto, and it ſhoulde bee impoſſible to keepe it in ſuch digmtie. Furthermore, if the ſyre of Purgatory were not of ſome balue, it ſhoulde not be ſo deere Perchandiſe, nor ſo precious. But what is the cauſe that men hauehave it in ſuch reuerence, and do forſake the liuinge God, and the Sauiour Ieſus Chriſt, for to worſhippe the worltes of their handes, but the falſe opinion wherewith their underſtanding is corrupted & marred? For beſtoes the worde of God, all the reſidue is but opiluons and lyings.

Theophilus.

They ſhould hauehave no leſſe occaſion to worſhippe the fyre, then the bread, and to make it a God. For if y^t fyre can purge & ſanctify y^t body & ſoule, it is God The fise made a God. Rom. 4. 2. 5 Eſt. 43. b. 11Rom 4:2Rom 4:5If it purge and ſanctify, it iuſtifieth & ſaueth. If it inſtiffe & ſaue, it is then God. For ther is none other iuſtifter & ſamour but him onelye. And it is no harder for him to purge & ſaue man, then to create & make him. The worke p. 160of y^t redēption is no harder, then y^t of the creation. Wherefore if y^e one apperteineth unto God alone, ſo doth y^t other.

Hillarius.

There is yet another point, y^e is, that the fire is y^e principall creator of the Prieſts God. For without it they cannot ſeeth nor heate any thing. It hath power to make & unmake, as it hath bene well ſhewed foorth in the A true luſtory of the Prieſtes god burned.yere of our Lord. 1542. in a litle billage which is iii, miles from Caſtres in Languidoc, where y^e poore whyte god was burned, upon holy Thurſoay, atnight, with all his Tabernacle, his houſe and al the Tepiſtry woork and hangings.

Thomas.

Now happened that great miſfortune?

Hillarius.

Nou muſt underſtand, y^e that night before the day of holy friday, they had a cuſtome that all y^e families & houſeholders went to biſit y^e poore god, which was there deteyned & kept priſoner, with a great number of Tapers, torches & lampes which they caryed … great deuotiō, ſaying: let bs go ſee our God, which is at reſt.

Thomas.

To what purpoſe did they y^e?

Hillarius,

Think y^e it was to cō fort him, bicauſe y^e upon thoſe dayes there he was ſomuch tormented among the Iewes.

Thomas.

Are there Iewes in y^e country?

Hillarius.

Why, is there a country where ther is none?

Thomas.

Not many among y^t Chriſtians.

Hillarius.

Pore then in any other place, although there were none but the pricſts which alwaies & dayly, thorow their blaſphemies, do crucifie Ieſus Chriſt: towards who they ſhew themſelues a great deale worſe then y^e Iewes. For they hauehave crucifted him but once, but thoſe, here doe crucifie him eueryevery day.

Thomas.

Ketourne to thy matter, & expound unto vsus how the fire there kindled.

Hillarius.

Nou muſt underſtand, y^e in diſiting himm in ſuch fort, they brought y^t fire ſo neere, y^e it kindled & burned all. Tevves among the chriſtiausNow whé they had found y^e nert day the goodly ſtur y^e they had made, god knoweth what pitious, lamctatiōs, wepings & cryings ther was. Tamus, Oſitis & Adonis wer neuer ſo bewayled & lameted. They did ſing other lamétatiōs, then thoſe of Ieremy, ſaying: O how wicked are we, al y^e world wil redeoche & check us, that we are worſe then y^e Iewes. For he was crucified among them, but he hath bene burned amongeſt vsus. We muſt not bee abaſhed, though they burne the Lutherians, ſith that they burne their God. Yet neuertheleſſe that ought not ſo ſe…me vntounto them ſtrange. For they hauehave vſed it of long time, and hauehave ſet and put a Canon among the Cautels of their Maſſe, which commaundeth, that when the hoaſt ſhalbe rotten or mouldie in the pyr, or that the wormes, Spiders and Myce hauehave touched and eaten it, that it ſhould be burned, and that the aſſhes ſhould be …ut in y^• reliquare or holy place. The which thing was once obiected and propounded vntounto a Prieſt, amongſt a great company of people, in a houſe at Geneua. But he was not aſraid to abſolue the queſtion, nor he was not ſo much offended in burning their God, as thoſe here. For he aunſwered directly, if he ſuffred himſelf to be crucified of the Iewes, cannot he ſuffer himſelfe to be burned of vsus?

Thomas.

The reſolution was clarke like, & like a good Theologian. But what was done in the end with theſe which burned it and ſuffred it to be burned.

Hillarius.

There was great debate betweene y^• Prieſts and the procurors of the Temple. For the Prieſt did lay the fault vponupon the procurors. The procurors on the contrary, confeſſed that they had the charge of the Temple, but not of the body of God, which would not ſuffer him to be touched and handled but of the Prieſts. And ſaid, that although they had bene preſent, yet they durſt not take Exconci. Aurel An other hiſtory. The fire kindeled in the temp…e of Veſta Metellus. Dyont. in Numa. Ouid. Faſt. 6 Palla lium. The hand kercheife of Chamber.him from the fire. Yet neuertheleſſe I thinke that if they had ſéene that goodly ſturre they ſhould hauehave béene entorced to hauehave taken him out, and would hauehave hadde ſome compaſſion of him. They woulde hauehave done as Cecilius Metellus, who ſeeing the fire kindled in the Temple of Veſta, wherein was the Palladium in great daunger to be burned, did caſt himſelfe in the middeſt of the ſlaming fire for to ſaue it, or other wiſe it had bene burned, as the holy hand-kerchiefe of Chambery. Metellus made it agreat conſcience to touch it with his hand, bicauſe that p. 161it was not permitted to men to enter into that holy Reliquare, nor to approch or come néere that holy Palladium, but for the holye Virgins Veſtals, the Nonnes of Veſta. But when he perceiued that they coulde doe nothing but wéepe, without helpinge any thinge at all, hée aduentured himſelfe, for to deliuer it from the fire, the whiche dyd ſo burne his eyes, that he dyd loſe his ſight.Pli. li. 7. c. 43

Thomas

What was that Palladium?

Hillarius.

An Image of the Goddeſſe Pallas, the which the Panims beléeued to be fallen Ouid. Faſt. 3from heauen, as Numa made them beléeue of his Ancyles and of other ſeducers of the Diana of the Epheſians. It was brought from Troy, and the Romaines had Ancyla, Luil. li. 1. Diana of the Epheſians. Act. 19. c. 24.Acts 19ſuch an opinion, that all the good hap and euil hap of their Empire depended vponupon the ſame, & that it ſhould alwayes flouriſh & proſper all the while that they had that Image at Rome and that they dyd kéepe it well. Therefore they kept it ſo diligentlye, and all the counſell was amazed, when they ſawe the fire wythin hir Temple.

Theophilus.

The Prieſtes hauehave no leſſe feare of their God, of whome alſo dependeth all their dignitie and maieſty of their Empire.

Hillarius.

It is very true, but they hauehave a remedye which the Romaines had not. For if their Palladium had bene once burned, they could not hauehave an other, as thoſe of Chambery hauehave done of their handkercheefe: And Iupiter would not ſend them a new from heauen. But the Prieſts doe make as many Gods as they lyſt, and make them to come downe from heauen when it pleaſeth them. But for to retourne to our matter, after that that poore God was burned, there was two great diſputations. The firſt was, howe one myght diſcerne the aſſhes of the hoaſte, from thoſe of hys Tabernacle. Some held Diſputacions of the aſshes of the hoſtean opinion, that one could not doe it, others to the contrarye, affirmed that the ſame was verye eaſye, ſayinge that God dyd that honour vntounto hys bodye, that the aſſhes of that ſhoulde bée whyter, more ſofter and ſmoother. Nowe when they had gathered together the ſmootheſt and ſofteſt. There was yet an other diſputation more barder, to wytte, in what place they ſhoulde put thoſe holy aſſhes. For dyſcuſſing of that matter, they muſt holde a counſayle of the wyſeſt and moſte prudent men, in the Citte of Caſtres, in the houſe of Monſer of Thaurines, to the which was called maſter Iohn de Boſco a Iacopin, a Doctour in diuinitie, borne in Anaxerra, who then preached that Lent at Caſtres. There came alſo the Conuent of the Iacopins, and olde reuerent father a teacher in diuinitie, bringing wyth hym a booke, which they called the third part of Sainct

Thomas.

The opinyon of the greateſt part was, that thoſe holy aſſhes ſhould be put in the Reliquary.

Theophilus.

It was a newe practyſe to bring money vntounto the Prieſtes. For on the one ſide their God had drawen hys parte and hys aſſhes from the other aſſhes.

Hillarius.

That was ſufficient to heale their purſes of Apoſtumes, and to make them hauehave the flire in their bellyes. But de Boſco counſayled them, that they ſhould not put that Reliquary in anye hye place, for to auoide the daunger of committinge Idolatrye whiche myght come thereby. For hée declared vntounto them accordynge to their owne doctrine, that the bodye of Chriſt was not burned, but the Accidents, and that thoſe aſſhes were not of the bodye, but of the accidentes. Wherefore wée muſt not worſhyppe them, ſith that the bodye is flowen an other waye. Ercept they wyll yet kéepe him pryſoner wythin the duſt and aſſhes. The which thing ſhould ſéeme verye ſtraunge, and full of blaſphemyes, yea, after the doctrine of the Schoolemen. And therefore hée counſayled them for a clére reſolution, that they The accidens burnedſhould bury thoſe aſſhes behinde the hygh aulter, in ſome darke corner, and that they ſhoulde take héede they put not any title vponupon it, nor Epitaph, as men doe vponupon other ſepulchres. For it ſhoulde ſéeme very ſtraunge to write: heere lyeth the Lord Ieſus, or the aſſhes of the body of god. p. 162For there is none ſo ignoraunt amonge the Chriſtyans but knoweth that Ieſus Chriſt hath not bene burned, and that he lyeth no more in the ſepulchre: But that hée is rayſed and aſcended into heauen, where hée is on the ryght hande of God hys Father, from thence hée ſhall come to iudge both the quicke and the deade. Wherefore one may ſay unto them, as the Angell ſayde vntounto the women: hée is riſen, hée is not heare.

Theophilus.

I beléeue that that God of the Prieſtes defendeth hymſelfe as well from the fire, as hée defendeth himſelfe from the myce, wormes & ſpiders, when they Accidens vvith Out ſubſtaiuicedoe eate him, and that euen as they lyue of the accidents wythout the ſubſtaunce, ſo hath the fyre burned the accidents wythout the ſubſtaunce. And accordinge to the Philoſophy of the ſcholaſticall Diuines, agaynſt the ſen…ence of Ariſtotle, and of all the olde Philoſophers, one may eaſely finde accidents, qualities and quantities, without ſubſtaunce, wythout body, and ſubiecte. Yet neuertheleſſe if they dyd well conſider the vertue of the fyre, they ſhould be contrained to allowe mine opynion. And I woulde to God that they woulde worſhyppe the fire, The trne fire. Mat. 3. c. li. Act. 2. 3. ….Matt 3Acts 2:3which hath the onelyonly vertue to purge ſinnes, to wytte, the ſame with which Ieſus Chriſt baptiſed, which is the holy Ghoſt.

Hillarius.

I doe alſo deſire that they would worſhip that water of lyfe, the which Ieſus Chriſt hath promyſed, which is the ſame holy Ghoſt. But they had rather make the materiall water a God, of which wée may lawfully ſay, as wée hauehave ſayde of the fire. For if they do make a God of the fire, they muſte in lyke manner make a Goddeſſe of the water, to the ende they maye hauehave Gods and Goddeſſes, & a Vulcan, a Veſta, Thetis or Amphittite, The gods of the fire and vvater.Leucothea or Naiades, & Nymphes, goddeſſes of the waters, as wel as the Panims had, for many times they attribute vntounto it as much vertue as to the fire, & ſometimes more. For if their water do quench & put out y^• fire of purgatory, it hath as much vertue & more, thē God Canopus, furthermore, what dyfference is there betwéene theire Aquaticall Theologye, and the ſame of the Ibolatrous Greekes, the which the Romaines hauehave learned of them, The Aquaticall theologyeuen as the Papiſtes of the auncient Romaines? As wée maye iudge by that whiche Ouid hath wrytten, ſaying:

Our olde men thought and did beleeue,Faſt. 2.

and in that hope did dwell,

That ſinne by purging loſed was,Purgations.

and ſo let not to tell.

Greece was the firſt this order gaue,

and therewith did ſuppoſe:

Offenders to be rid from ſinne,

and ſo let not to gloſe.

Theophilus.

That doctrine ſhoulde hée good if it referred it ſelfe to the purgation of our ſinnes, made or done by Ieſus Chriſt and that it extended vntounto his bloud: But their thought is altogether otherwiſe.

Hillarius.

They vnderſtande that of their purgations, of whiche we hauehave ſpoken off, and chiefly of the water. Of which ſuperſtition, the Panims themſelues doe mocke and hauehave well had the iudgement, to know that the ſame was but vanitie, as wee hauehave already declared by the Apothegine of Diogenes. And the verſes of Perſius a boue alledged pretend to the ſame, as well as thoſe héere of Ouid, which I will now rehearſe.

Ah, too light credite doe they giuegive,Faſt. 2.

which doe ſuppoſe and thincke,

That that ſame fault of murther ſhould,

by water be extinct.

Euſebius.

Wée are of an opinion altogether differinge from the ſame. For wée dooe not beleeue, p. 163that thorow the ſprinckling of the holy water, the mortall Veniall ſinnes put avvay by vvater. Mortall ſinnes. Mat 12. c. 32 1. Iohn. 5. c. 13.Matt 121 John 5ſinnes are put away, but onelyonly the veniall ſinnes.

Theophilus.

They are not then defaced and taken away by the ſame. For the ſinnes are not mortall, but vntounto thoſe whiche ſinne vntounto death, and agaynſte the holy Ghoſt, and which perſeuer in their ſinnes, withour dooing repentaunce, and running vntounto the mercye of God. But vntounto Gods elect all ſinnes are veniall: not by their nature, but by the grace of Ieſus Chriſt. For there is no ſinne be it neuer ſo little, which of his nature is not mortall, and worthy of eternall death, if Ieſus Chriſte make them not veniall, and capable of pardon, to thoſe Veniall ſinnes. Rom. 8. a. 1.Rom 8which beléeue in hym, to whome there is no more condempnation. Wherefore I am abāſhed of your Doctors, which take ſo much paines to purge the veniall ſinnes. And amongeſt others the ſprincklyng of the holy water: 4. Sent. diſt. Tho. par. 4. q. 7. ar. 2. & in Ma 6.and that they doe allowe ſo muche the exorciſmes and coniurations, namely of Thomas of Aquin, whiche yet neuertheleſſe doe nothing dyffer from charmes and ſorceryes. But I am yet more abaſhed, of that Canon, ſo Pope Alexan. 5. de conſec. diſt 3. cap. aquam.full of blaſphemye which is taken of Pope Alexander the fift, whome you accompte to bée the firſte finder out and inuentour of holy water, who ſayth after thys manner. Wée doe bleſſe the water ſprinckled or myngled wyth ſalt amonge the people, to this ende that all béeing ſprinckled therewyth, ſhoulde bée ſanctified and puryfied: the which thinge wée commaunde all Prieſtes to doe ſo. For it the aſſhes of a younge Heyfer béeinge ſprinckeled vppon the people doe ſanctifie and make them cleane, by a ſtronger reaſon the water béeinge mingled wyth ſalte and hallowed wyth diuine praiers doth ſanctifie and make them cleane? And if the ſalte béeinge A compariſon betvveene theaſshet of a Heyfer & the…roater 4. Reg. 2. d. 21caſt in the water by the Prophet Eliſeus, hath healed and hoplen the barrenneſſe thereoff, howe much more the water béeinge hallowed wyth diuine prayers, doth take awaye the ſterrilitie of hamayne thynges, and ſanctyfieth and purgeth the filthineſſe, and multiplyeth and encreaſeth the other goodes, and putteth awaye the aſſaultes of the Diuell, and defendeth men from fantaſies. O Lorde God, what greater blaſphemye can one heare, is not that to tourne all the worde of God vpſyde downe, and to ouerthrowe all the vertue of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt? That which the holy Apoſtle attributeth vntounto the death and bloud of Ieſus Chriſte is it not héere altogether moſt euidentlye giuen vntounto the ſalte The bloude of Ieſus.: Heb. 9. d. 13 Leuit. 16. c. 14Heb 9Lev 16and water? For in ſtéede that the Apoſtle ſayth. If the bloude of Dren and of Goats and the aſſhes of an Heyfer, when it was ſprinckeled, puryfied the vncleane, as touching the purifying of the fleſh: Nowe much more ſhall the bloud of Chriſte (whiche thorowe the eternall ſpyrite, offered himſelfe wythout ſpotte to GOD) purge your conſciences from dead woorks, for to ſerue the liuing God? In ſtéede that the Apoſtle ſayth, the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt, thoſe héere doe put the ſalt the water. But I wyll argue and reaſon after an other ſorte agaynſt Alexander, If the aſſhes of an Heyfer and the holy water that they doe make, by the ordinaunce and commaundement of God, cannot purge the conſcience, and can ſcrue but for a certeyne carnall purification, for to kéepe certeyne diſcipline in the Iewiſh Churche, and to prefigurate the true purgation which by the bloud of Ieſus Chriſte ought to be in the Chriſtian Churche, but it was neceſſary, that the onelyonly ſonne of God ſhoulde ſhed out his owne bloud, which onelyonly hath that vertue, how the ſalt & the ſalted water coniured by the prieſts, without hauing either law, commaundement or promiſe of God do it better.

Hillarius.

I ſhould hauehave ben greatly aſhamed to hauehave ſtayed ſo long vponupon thoſe vaine & chidiſh ceremonies, but that I did ſée that the moſt wiſeſt, and the moſt greateſt Doctors hauehave bene abuſed and deceiued & are fallen into ſo many execrable blaſphemies.

Thomas.

How hath y^• ben poſſible? If it be ſo as you ſay, I am greatly abaſhed how y^• could be done.

Theophilus.

It hath taken as good effect among the ſuperſtitious Chriſtiās, as among y^• panims. For euen as p. 164the Panims & hipocrites, hauehave ben the Apes of the Patirarches The error of y^• idolaters & hypocrites.Prophets and true ſeruants of God, ſo hauehave thoſe bene héere. For all that which the Panims dyd, dyd ſéeme to hauehave ſome coulour and imitation of the lawe whiche God gaue vntounto hys people. For that which they ſacryficed in the mountaynes, that they cauſed the chylbren to paſſe thorow the fire, & ſacrificed them vntounto Moloch, and the waſſhings that they had, dyd ſeeme to be taken of the cuſtome of the auncient Patriarches, and of the people of Iſraell, after that ſorte as the Turkes doe The vv…hings of the Turkes.followe them at this daye: who doe ſpende and beſtow a great parte of the time, aboute ſuch waſſhinges and Ceremonies. But there is greate difference. For although they followe ſomewhat in outward appearaunce, the woorkes of the auncient ſeruauntes of God, yet neuertheleſſe The falſe imi… cion of the vvoorkes of the Saints.they fayle greatlye, in that that they doe it wythout the commaundement of God, followinge onelyonly their fooliſhe ſantaſie and opinion: And they dooe it not in ſuch fayth, to ſuch intent, and wyth ſuche a ſpyrite, as they dyd. For they dyd them to render obedyence vntounto the commaundement of GOD, the whiche Obediencowas vntounto hym a ſacrifice more agréeable, then the Ceremony, which for that ende was ordayned: Nowe theſe héere cannot ſcriue God by ſuch obedyence, ſith that they hauehave no commaundement: But they doe offende thorow diſobedience, deſpyſinge the meanes that he hath commaunded, and chooſinge others contrary vntounto his wyll. Furthermore the true Iſraelites dyd not thinke to bée purified by thoſe outwarde thinges, but had regarde onelyonly vntounto the bloud of Ieſus Chriſte, by them repreſented: And they truſted but onelye in the mercye of God. But thoſe …éere doe attribute the vertue vntounto the outwarde woorke, and to the creature, ſayinge that ſuch Ceremonies, and Sacraments, hauehave efficacy by the vertue of the woorke done: Or if thou loueſt rather in theire naturall language. Ex virtute operis operati. Nowe Ex virtute operis oper. …if the Prophetes hauehave rebuked and condempned the vipocrites who hauehave put the whole truſt of their health and Eſa. 1. 2. 12Isa 1:2Isa 1:12ſaluation vntounto the ceremonies commaunded by the lawe of God, and hauehave reiected and reproued their ſacrifices and purifications, how much more are our hipocrits to be condemned, which do not only make a god of their works, but which is worſe, doe make the ſame of the woorkes which are nothing at all commaunded of God, but altogether condempned.

Hillarius.

Wée may rightly compare them vntounto thoſe good merchaunts, of whom Ouid maketh mencion after this manner.

Hard by Capena gate there isFaſt. 5.

of Mercury a well,

Wherein is vertue rare and ſtraunge

as cunning folkes doe tell.

For Merchaunts doe thether repaire

with pitcher ready pight,

And therewithall doe water drawe,

by vertue of whoſe might

The Laurell branch is dropping wet,

and all thoſe things that ſhall

By Maſters right be ſet to ſale,

are ſprinckled therewithall.

And after that his head is wet

by ſprinckling of the bayes,

VntoUnto the Gods in wonted wiſe

his prayer thus he ſayes:

Waſh off (ſayth he) my periury

of thoſe times that are paſt,

Waſh of my falſe and fained woords

my falſehood now off caſt.

Bycauſe that they holde and accompt Mercurius for the God of the théeues, it ſemeth vntounto them that the one of the théeues wyll eaſelye abſolue the other, and that the larcenies, periuries and rapines ſhall be waſhed away as ſoone as they ſhal caſt a little water vponupon them. Wherfore our Papiſtes knowing that they hauehave the like God p. 165in the earth, do the like.

Theophilus.

Therefore it is more then néede to crye with Eſay: Be ye waſhed, Be ye The true vvaſshings. Eſa. 1. d. 16Isa 1cleane. But how? Put away the euill from your thoughts, before mine eyes, ſaith the Lorde. And with Ieremy: O Hieruſalem, waſh thine hearte from wickednes. And with Iere 4. d. 14 Mat. 27. c. 25.Jer 4Matt 27Ieſus Chriſt: Thou blind Phariſie, clenſe firſt the inſide of the Cup and Platter that the outſide of them maye bée cleane alſo. GiueGive almes of that you hauehave, and béehold all thing is cleane vntounto you. And therefore muſt wee ſay Luc. 11. 5. 41Luke 11:5Luke 11:41with Dauid: O purge mée with Iſop and I ſhalbe clean, waſh thou mée and I ſhalbe whiter then Snowe. For Pſa. 51. b. 9 The true holy vvater. The ſprinckling of Iſope.Ps 51there is none, which can make that holy water, but he only, who hath put the miniſtry of his Goſpel in his Church, which is the true ſprinkeling of Iſop, which thorow the preaching of Ieſus Chriſt crucified, ſprinkeleth and purgeth with his precious bloud our ſoules and conſciences.

Hillarius.

There is nothing truer, then that thou ſayeſt, as I will yet declare more perticulerly Firſt, as touching the purifications & ſprinklings of water, that is already too muche proued, & of the ſame is taken that which Ouid writeth of Deucalion and Pirrha his wife, willing to enter into y^e Temple of the Goddeſſe Themis, of whom he ſpeaketh after this manner, after the tranſlation of the Engliſh Poet.

Whoſe ſacred liquor ſtraight they tookeOuid. Meta. 1

and ſprinkled with the ſame

Their heads and clothes: and afterward

to Themis Chappell came.

In like manner Ouid reherſing the things which were Fast. 2.called Februa, bicauſe that the auncients vſed it in their purgations, maketh mention of the woll, ſalt, meale, and bowghes which they cauſed to be conſecrated for diuers purifications of men, beaſts and houſes: the which things the Papiſts hauehave almoſt altogether the like. For beſides the water and the fire, the war and the ſalt, they hauehave as many holy wolles, holy linnen clothes and ſacred veſtements. They hauehave the holy bread, and the bread of Sainct The holy bread Q of S. AgatheAgathe, which hath alſo great power: and the holy bowghs vponupon the day of Palme Sunday, and of Caſter flowers. But the Panims do approche neerer to the auncient lawe of Moſes in their holy aſſhes, then the Papiſtes. For The holy aſshes Aum. 19. 4. 1the Iewes dyd it with a red Cow, young and which neuer carryed yoke. The Panims dyd theirs with a young Calfe, newely taken from his mothers belly, the which the moſt auncienteſt of the virgins of the Goddeſſe Veſta, as wee may ſay the mother of the Prioreſſe burned in that holy fire which was made vponupon the aulter of the ſaide goddeſſe, as it appeareth by theſe verſes of Ouid ſaying.

The eldeſt virgin amōgſt thē then, thoſe calues doth burn with fireFaſt. 4

To hauehave the aſſhes not to ſeeke, when time ſhall then requite.

That when the feaſt of Pales doth, approch at hand ſo faſt,

The people may be pure and cleane, when it is on them caſt.

Theophilus.

I doubt not but that Paniſh ſuperſtition was ſome thing taken of the imitation of the people of God but that whiche was done by the people of God, vntounto his honoure, and contayninge the miſteryes of the redemption: was done in Idolatrye and ſuperſtition without faith amonge the Panims: as it is now amonge the Papiſtes.

Hillarius.

I am of thine opinion. But yet neuertheleſſe mee thinketh that the Panims hauehave more ſhewe and colour, for to defend them by the word of God. But bicauſe that that holy aſſhes was done in the daye of the feaſt of the Goddeſſe Pales, and that I hauehave yet to ſpeake of otter Goddeſſes here before mencioned, let vsus returne vntounto the feaſt of Candlemas and afterwardes let vsus fall againe to the aſſhes, after that I ſhal hauehave a little followed certeine other conformities, the whiche I hauehave alreadye Cal. lee. aut li. 17 ca. 18.ſome thinge beganne. I hauehave alreadye touched howe p. 166you doe attrybute the ſame tytles vntounto the Uirgyn Mary, Titles of the Goddeſſes of the Panims.whiche the Idolaters hauehave giuen vntounto Iuno, Diana, Ceres and Proſerpina, whom they hauehave called ſome of them Quéenes of Heauen, the others Ladies without Luc. 1. e. 48. Our Lady.Luke 1a tayle. Shee called hir ſelfe the handemayde and ſeruaunt of the Lorde, and you doe call hir our Lady, as though there were in Heauen Lordes and Ladyes, as there is in the Earth: and a King and a Quéene as there is a Sunne and a Moone.

Theophilus.

The Scripture admitteth but one king One onelyonly king and Lord. 1. Tim. 1 d. 17 Apoc. 19. c. 161 Tim 1Rev 19of the worlde, immortal and inuiſible and onelyonly wiſe, vntounto whome onelye belongeth all honour and glorye, and in whoſe thigh is written: King of Kings and Lorde of Lordes. Uppon whiche alſo wée hauehave the witneſſe of the Apoſtle, ſaying: Although that there bée 1. Cor. 8. b. 51 Cor 8many Gods & manye Lordes in the worlde (to witte after the reputation of the Idolaters) yet neuertheles vntounto vsus, there is but one God and one Lord.

Hillarius.

Afterwards you doe make the ſame honour Flora. Lact. de fal. re. li. 1. ca. 20.vntounto the Uirgyn Mary, which the Romaines dyd vntounto the Harlot Flora, whome they hauehave made a Goddeſſe and canoniſed hir, bicauſe that ſhée made them heyres of hir goodes, whiche ſhée hadde gayned by whoredome. Chloris Ouid. Faſt. 4. 5.And afterwardes for to couer and hyde their honoure, hauehave called hir Chloris, and hauehave giuen vntounto hir power to make the Earth to fructifie and increaſe. Doe yée not greate honoure vntounto that holye Uirgyn, to giuegive vntounto hir Flora, that abhominable bawde and harlot for a compaignion? or to put hir in hir place? And the tyme agréeth well to the feaſte. For the Florales and the feaſte of Candlemas of Flora were dedycated vntounto Florales.all lycenciouſeneſſe, ſhameleſſe playes, vpllaynies and diſſolutions, the whiche the falſe Chriſtians doe practiſe, all that time whiche is betweene the Kinges and Shroftyde, afterwardes they beginne agayne at Caſter and doe contynue vntyll the monethmonth of Maye, and almoſte all the yeare.

But chiefely at the feaſts of Caſter & in May after their Proſerpina & Hecate.lamentations of Lent. Furthermore the Panims do hold Proſerpina & Hecate for the Goddeſſe and Quéene of hell, and do light vntounto hir Torches and candels and doe beſéech hir for the dead, to the ende ſhée be fauourable, as well for hir owne parte, as towardes hir huſband Pluto. And you, do ye muche leſſe of the Uirgin Mary, you doe Queene of heauen and of hellcall hir Quéene of heauen: And you do make hir Quéene of hell and of the dead, as the Poets doe of Hecate, whom they do alſo take for Proſerpina and Diana vntounto whom they do attribute great power in heauen and in hell: as it appeareth by that, that Virgill ſaith.Aene. 6.

To caſt in ſacred fire redemption chiefe of deedes amiſſe.

And on Diana cals, in heauen and hell that mightie is.

Alſo in like manner you would make of Ieſus Chriſt a Pluto, or at the leaſt the difference is not great. And if you wil deny it I wil hauehave no more to proue it, but your proſe & ſequence of the dead, which is in good tyme, but yet neuertheleſſe Proſe and ſequence for the deadwithout reaſon, beginning in Latin: Lugentibus in Purgatorio: The which for to make it the better to ſoūd in thine eares friend Euſebius, & the better to follow the ſtile of the Fatiſts which hauehave made it, I wil revearſe it vntounto thée in verſe word for worde the beſt & I can and if thou doe not finde the ryme ſo good as it is in Latine, be aſſured that there is more ryme and better, then there is of reaſon. For I do not thinke that one can finde greater blaſphemy againſt God and the Uirgyn Mary. If I do not tranſlate it word for worde, I will yet at the leaſt rehearſe the ſentence faithfully. GiueGive eare then, and I will poure it forth.

1

To all them that doe dwel: in Purgatory paineEugentibus in purgatorio &c. Reſidium in ſi. ne iſtius Dialog 7.

Where firy furies fel: and ſorrowes they ſuſtaine,

And torments doe endure: voide of ſolation,

Come ſhew them ſome …ecure: by thy compaſſion.

O Mary.

p. 1672

Thou art the well alone: which waſheſt ſinnes away,

Thou hydeſt eueryevery one: and none thou doeſt denay.

Extend thy hand toward: theſe ſoules and ſuccorr ſhew

Which thus without regard: lye languiſhing in woe,

O Mary.

3

The dampned ſpirites to thee: ſo pitious do aſplie

Deſiring for to bee: deliuered foom the fire.

That by thee they may bee: erepted for their paine,

And may in ioyes with thee: for euermore remaine.

O Mary.

4

Of Dauid only kay: which heauen openeſt wyde,

Theſe wretches helpe ſtreight way: which dolors do abide

Let them deliuered be: from dongeon and durance,

Where they do linked lye: in ſorrow and greuance.

O Mary.

5

A rule art thou full right: to them that thee aſſye,

A liuely lampe of light: to them that truſt in thee,

Incontinent go pray: for theſe ſoules in diſtreſſe,

Thy ſonne that he ſtreight way: their dolour will releſſe.

O Mary.

6

O Virgin thus we do: vponupon thee cry and call,

Theſe ſoules ſo tangled, to: deliuer out of thrall.

And pardoning their miſdeed: alſo wee thee requeſt,

That thou wilt be their guyde: to euerlaſting reſt.

O Mary.

Do ye not behold a goodly Letanie? may not Ieſus Chriſt now reſt? For the Scripture attributeth vntounto him nothing, which is not here altogether, attributed vntounto the creature. Wherefore I will hauehave none other propoſition for to proue that that profe contayneth the greateſt blaſphemye which may be vppon the earth, but only that eyther the ſame that I do ſay is true, or els that the holy Scripture is falſe, and Ieſus Chriſte is no more Ieſus Chriſte, the Titles of Chriſt Iohn. 10. b. …. Apoc. 3. b. 7 Iohn. 14. a. 6.John 10Rev 3John 14dore, the key, and he which holdeth it, which openeth and ſutteth, the way the trueth and y^e life, by whom onelyonly wée hauehave acceſſe vntounto the father: or onelyonly hope, the reſurrection and remiſſion of ſinnes: or only aduocate patron and mediator? the which titles and many other like, the Scripture 1. Iohn. 2. a. 11 John 2attributeth vntounto him onelye and not vntounto the creature whatſoeuer it bée, eyther in heauen or in the earth. Wilt thou now deny, but you doe make of the Uirgin Mary a Proſerping: and of the other ſide a Ceres? whom in like manner you doe honor by putting on of white apparel, and Write apparellwith faſtings & ſuperſtitious abſtinences, euen as Ouid hath written of Ceres, ſaying.

The Goddeſſe Ceres beſt doth likeFaſt. 4.

the garment made of white

And for hir vſe in garment blacke

ſhee no thing doth delite.

Behold as touching the apparell. GiueGive eare alſo to that Faſtings. Faſt. 4. Coriat. le nat. deo. l. cui.which he ſpeaketh of the ſuperſtitious faſtings.

Their feaſting laſted all the day

till time of night drew neare

And then they ſtreight to ſupper wentCal. lee. ant. li. 26. ca. 20. Faſt. 4.

when ſtarres in skye appeare

As muche did they in like manner vntounto Iſis and Cible, whom you wil bring all into the Chriſtianitie vnderunder the Plat. de Oſiri. & Iſida.title of that good virgin. And not béeing contented with y^e yée do adde yet Iuno Soſpita, vntounto whom y^e title was giuē, bicauſe that y^e Panims did attribute vntounto hir the vertue to Iuno Soſpita. Ouid. Faſt. 2.heale & ſaue men. For Soſpita ſignifieth aſmuch as a ſauereſſe or woman ſauer. Therefore al thoſe y^e were ſicke or Iupiter a ſauiour.diſeaſed did call vponupon hir with Iupiter the ſauiour, Ieſus Chriſt is not ſufficient for you for a ſauiour, except you do adde a ſauereſſe or a woman ſauiour. It is not ſufficient for you to hauehave him for a Porter and key bearer in heauen, but yee muſt ioyne to him a ſhee porter and ſhée key keeper, to the end that we ſhould hauehave the Goddeſſe Carua The goddeſſe Carua porter. Faſt. 6.aſwell as the Panims had, vntounto whom Ouid giueth ſuch p. 168power, as you do giuegive in that proſe vntounto your newe Uirgin Mary, the whiche you hauehave forged and made of your owne minde. For ſhée which was the Mother of Ieſus would not commit ſacriledge, for to ſteale from Ieſus Chriſt hir ſonne the honour whiche to him alone apperteyneth. But marke well whether the verſe of Ouid ſpeaking of the Goddeſſe Carua, doth euill agrée with your proſe.

Through hir great force and mighty powerFaſt. 6.

that which is cloſe and ſhet

Shee doth ſet ope and ſhut againe

without any mans let.

Furthermore you apply hir to you purpoſe, as they did the Goddeſſe whom they did call Muete and the Goddeſſe The Goddeſſe Muete. Dea Muta. Ouid. Faſt. 2.Palis. For after that they had ended that that belongeth vntounto the dead, they did alſo make a magicall ſacrifice, to y^e Goddeſſe Muete to which they did put incēce, war, beanes & other like things, & they did think y^e it had vertue againſt Sacrifice againſt the enemyes and backebiterstheir enemies, for to kéepe thē, & chiefly for to ſtop y^e mouth of the euill ſpeakers and backebiters,

Thomas.

The poore prieſts ſhoulde hauehave neede to make ſuch ſacrifices againſt you for to bridle your mad tongues & to ſtop your mouths

Hillarius.

They hauehave the Agnus Dei of war which the Rat. diui. off. li. 6.Pope bleſſeth y^e great Satterday, which ought to hauehave that vertue.

Theophilus.

They néed none other ſacrifice, then to to be good people, of good doctrine & a holy life, and duely to exerciſe y^e office of ſhepheardes, as y^e true diſciples & miniſters of Ieſus Chriſte, & they ſhal eaſely tye y^e tongue of all backbiters & euil ſpeakers: or they ſhal do at y^• leaſt that it ſhal not hurt them, & that thoſe which now do ſpeake euil, ſhal finde themſelues lyers if they perſeuer & continue in The goddeſſe Pales. Ouid. Faſt. 4. The purging fire.it.

Hillarius.

Yet there remaineth the feaſt of Palis, the Goddeſſe of the Shepheards, in the whiche alſo they did make the purging fires, and the ſhepheards did leape vponupon the flames, thinking that by thoſe fires they wer purified. I think y^• of that cuſtome came y^• fires of Saint Brandons, The fires of S. Brandon and of Saint Iohn.for thoſe that were new maried, and thoſe of Sainct Iohn: afterwardes in that ſame feaſte they made perſumes, beſides Hly aſ…hes.the holy aſſhes of which we hauehave already inademē tion off, and of the holy water, aſwell for to purge the men … of m…n & o… …as the beaſts, and did make ſprinklings vponupon them, for to …éepe them from euill… The which ceremonies Ourd hath all compriſed in theſe veſtek.

And ſurely I my ſelfe in hande.Faſt. 5.

the ſacnfice did take

The beme ſtalke, and the aſshes which

the burned Calues did make.

And thrice I paſt the firy ſlames

in order placed there

Which all be ſprinkled with the dew

of droppong Lautell were.

And of the perfumes in that ſame booke he ſaith

Perfumes from virgins alter fetch

which Veſta will giuegive thee

For by the vet…ue of hir gift

thou purified ſhalt bee.

Thy pertumes ſhallbe Horſes bloud

And aſſhes of a Calfe

The third thing them ſhallbe the ſtalkes

of beanes for that behalfe

Let ſhephearde then make ſacrifice

at dawning of the day

Let him caſt wateron the earth

and ſweepe the duſt away.

Then ſheepefoldes trymly let be deckt

with boughes and brauncues greene

And let their wreathes and garlauds gay

vppon the doores be ſeene

Let blewiſh ſmoke likewiſe be made

of Brimſtone good and fine

p. 169And let the Sheepe ſmeerd with the ſmoke,

his bleating voyce reſigne,

Male Olyues then with fire conſume,

the Iuniper and Pine,

And let the Laurel crackelyng leaues,

be burnt in chimney thine,

You hauehave alſo the torches and holy Candells, and the encenſings and perfumes, your holy aſſhes, which you giuegive the firſt day of Lent: and you hauehave alwayes your holy water ready, and your holy torches, as remedyes agaynſt all diſeaſes and daungers, of men and of beaſtes, and ye doe giuegive and vowe them vntounto the Virgin Mary, and to the Saynts and Sayntes, as they did to the Goddeſſe Pales, which had the charge of the beaſtes.the Gods of & beaſtes. Obiection. lob. 10. b. 9. &. …2 b. 12 Pſa. 103. c. 14. Geneſ. 3. d. 19. Pſa. 40. b. 6Ps 103Gen 3Ps 40

Euſebius.

Is that a thing contrarye vntounto the word of God, to put holy aſſhes on the foreheads of y^e Chriſtians, for to admoniſh then of their mortail condition, and fragilitie, to the ende that man ddoe remember that hée is but duſt, earth and aſſhes, and to the earth ſhall retourne agayne? Is not that a good aduertiſement, for to abate the pride and arroganicie of man, and to prepare hym vntounto death and to the iudgement of God? And afterwardes, how many places of the holy Scripture are there which doe exhorte vsus to humble our ſelues before God, with To vveare ſackcloth and afshes.fackecloth and aſſhes? And of examples of the ſeruaunts of God, which hauehave done the lyke? But you wyll not conſider thoſe places, but you had rather to ſpeake euill of it, and to referre it to the Panims.

Theophilus.

Anſvvere.I denye not, but that the auncient and true ſeruauntes of God hauehave done peuaunee,faſted and prayed, wyth fackecloth and aſſhes, but howe doth that that they dyd, agrée with that that you doe?

Hillarius.

As much, as is betwéene the worke of a man and of an Ape.

Theophilus.

It is no lye. For that which the auncientes The aſshes of the auncients.dyd, they did it wyth a good heart, and not by outward geſtures. They dyd retourne againe vntounto God by true repentaunce, confeſſion of their ſinnes, and amendement of lyfe. They made no Shrofeſide nor dyd burſte themſelues wyth eatinge and drinckinge. They dyd not giuegive themſelues to all dyſſolutions, fot to goe the nexte daye to hauehave a fewe afſhes put vppon their foreheades, as though they woulde playe a Maſke or a Ieſt, and to mocke wyth God and wyth men. Thery abſteyned The faſtings of the auncients Iudg. 20. d. 26 1. Reg. 7. b. 6 Neehe. 1. b. 4. heſt. 4. a. 3. Dan. 10. a. 3. Act. 13. 2. 3Judg 201 Kgs 7Dan 10Acts 13:2Acts 13:3not onelyonly from certeyne meates vntyll noone, for to ſtuffe and fill themſclues afterwardes wyth other meates, and to eate vntill they burſt: But they abſteyned firſt form vice and ſinne, and afterwardes from all pleaſures, delyghtes and pompes. They abſteyned from eatinge and drindcking all a daye vntill night, and ſometyme continued their prayers vntill two of theire owne voluntarye wyll and good heart, when they dyd knowe that it was erpedient for them ſo to doe, or for to macerate and chaſtice theire bodye: or when they dyd ſée the furour and anger of GOD kindled agaynſte theyre ſinnes: or when they had any great matter of weyght to doe, to the which fayth is greatly required, and the ayde and aſſiſtaunce of GOD, and for to demaunde and obteyne, the prayer and oriſon, the which requyreth Prayer.ſobrietie and abſtmence, to the ende the ſpirite bée more frée, feruent, and more zealous to GOD. But they had no lawe, for to make difference betwéene meat and meat, other then that of Moſes: nor which forbiddeth them fleſh, which by the ſame was permitted them: nor that they bound them vntounto certeyne dayes, or certeine meates, and to faſt vnderunder paine of deadly ſinne.The lavv of faſting Mon…anus Here ticke Euſeb. hiſt. ec. ole. li. …. ca. 18

For the firſt that made the lawe to faſt was Montanus the her like, as the eccleſiaſticall hiſtorye wytneſſeth. Alſo they attributed not their health and iuſtification, to the merite of their faſtinges and other woorkes, nor they dyd not preſent them vntounto God, for ſatiſfaction of their ſinnes: and yet leſſe the ſackecloth and aſſhes, wherwyth they did couer themſelues: But to the p. 170onelyonly goodneſſe and mercye of God. And they dyd not that, but for to wytneſſe their fayth and repentaunce, which dyd bringe foorth ſuch fruites: and for to moue and ſturrethem the better to call vppon GOD, and to The profite of ſackecloth and aſshes. Hypocriſie.giuegive themſelues wholy vntounto him. For without the ſame, neyther ſackecloth nor aſſhes, nor the abſtinence of meates, wyll not profite, but for to prouoke the wrath of God, thorowe ſuch hipocriſie, the whiche nothinge can Iohn. 8. f. 44.John 8bée more dyſpleaſing vntounto hym. For ſith that GOD is truth, and the Father thereoff, and the Diuell is lyer and the Father of lyes, what thinge can bée more contrary vntounto the nature of GOD, and hys truth, whiche ought to ſhine in hys children, then hipocriſie the daughter of the Diuell and of lyes? & to lye vponupon the ſpirite of God and his Church? For what other thinge is hipocriſſe Hypocrite.and diſſimulation, but lying? And what other thing is the hipocrite before GOD, but a diſſembler,beguiler, and a ſcoffer, a mocker of God and men, and a very traytour and deceiuer? who woulde bée eſtéemed other then hée is, and thincketh to deceine both GOD and men, caringe but for to pleaſe men, as hée whiche playeth his parte vppon a ſtage or ſeaffolde, onelye for to gette prayſe and glorye: As our Lorde Ieſus Chriſte wytneſſeth of the Scribes and Phariſes, who dooe all their woorkes but for the prayſe of the worlde: For as Mat. 6. a. 2. & 22. a. 5 Ierem. 5. a. 3.Matt 6Jer 5the Prophet ſayth, O Lorde thou lookeſt onelyonly vppon fayth. If the beſt woorkes that God euer commaunded be not profitable vntounto him that doeth them, if they procéede not of a true & liuely faith, without vnſaincdneſſe, with a Hebr. 11. a. 1. 1. Tim. 1. a. 5Heb 111 Tim 1pure heart and a good conſcience, without dooing it to any other ende, but to the glorye of God, and health of our neighboure, whereto then can the vare ceremonies ſerue, The ceremonicswhiche of themſelues are nothinge worth, but foraſmuche as they dooe ſerue to more greater things, and that they are as the rudimentes, and begynnings, and the firſt elements & degrées, for to come and attayne vntounto greater things, to y^t which they prepare do: As y^t letters, y^e Alphabet and the firſt rules Grammer, doe prepare lyttle children and younge Grammarians, to a hygher knowldge, and more greater percfection: or otherwiſe all that ſhould ſerue them but in little ſteede. Therefore Saincte Paule The rodlments of the relygion Gal. 4. 2. 3Gal 4:2Gal 4:3called the Iewiſh and Moſaiacall Ceremonies, the elementes of the worlde. They doe alſo ſerue vsus as the ſcaffoldes which the Maſons doe make for to builde a houſe, the which are caſt away after that the houſe is finiſhed. For they are of themſelues vndrofitable, ſauinge onelyonly that they voe ſerue for a better thing. And therefore Faſtings condemned Mat. 6. a. 2.Matt 6let vsus beholde howe our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt, condemned the faſtings of the Scribes and hipocryticall Phariſes: And by hys Prophet Eſay, thoſe which abſteyned onelyonly from meates and puniſhed theire bodyes, and couered themſelues with ſackecloth and aſſhes: But they abſteyned not from dooing euyll, from plaintes and proceſſe, from violence and rapines: as the moſt parte of our faſters are at this day, which do make it a cōſcience to eat a péece of porke, beale, mutton or of other beaſtes, and doe Abſtinence frōbrutish flesh. Deuouring of mans flesh.make it no conſcience to eate and deuoure mans fleſh, and the bowels, tripes and entrayles of their Chriſtian bretheren, thorowe their inſatiable auarice and couetouſneſſe. And yet neuertheleſſe they play the Dipocrites, and knéele downe before the Prieſt, for to receyue thoſe holy aſſhes, as in ſigne and wytneſſe of a greate humplitie and abiection of themſelues. But if they dyd truelye beléeue that they are earth and aſſhes, wherefore doe A layned humilitie.not they feare the iudgement of GOD, and leaue off from their violences and ertorcions? For they ought not to thincke, that wyth ſuch maſkes, they can content and pleaſe God, whiche hath no néede of babels, for to paſſe away the tyme. For the faſtinge hath bene chiefely The principall vſe of faſting.vſed, among the true ſeruaunts of God, for to helpe them in their peayer, the which is almoſt alwayes ioyned with faſtinge, in all the places of the Scripture which maketh mention of faſtinge. For that cauſe ſayde Ieſus Chriſte vntounto his Diſciples ſpeakinge of that Diuell which they p. 171coulde not driue out of the LunatickeL That kinde of diuell Mat. 17. d. 27.Matt 17cannot bée driuen out, but by faſtinges and prayers: Letting them thereby to vnderſtande, that they wanted To driue out y^e diuel by faſting and prayer.great fayth, and that their incredulitye and vnbeliefe was che cauſe that they could not driue hym out.

Wherfore it was moſt neceſſary for them to praye, the which requireth abſtinence and ſobrietie, for to bee more Incredulitie. Prayers. Abſtinence frō meates. The faſting and abſtinence of the Panims Cal Rhod. let. aut. li. 26. c. 20. Hierome Apul. ſin. aur. li. 11.ſpirituall and ſeruent. But otherwyſe, the faſtinge and the abſtinence, which hath regarde but to the meates, why ſhoulde it bée more praiſe worthy amonge the Chriſtians, then the abſtinence of the Philoſophers whiche doe abſteine from fleſhe? or that of the Prieſtes of Iſis, and Cyble, who doe abſteine from eating of bread? whom Saincte Hierome rebuked, bicauſe they dare not eate bread for feare to breake their faſtinges, but they muſt make greate prouiſion for Pheſauntes, Partriges, and other deyntie foules. They doe as ours doe, which dare not eate of the larde and fat bacon, but they ſéeke bothſea and lande for to finde out new delicate diſſhes. Is not the perpetuall abſtinence from wyne which the Lurkes kept to bée preferred? But I wyll not at this time enter into that matter of faſtinges any further. For it cannot bée ended in a ſmall tyme. But if the faſtinges and ſuch corporall exerciſes doe lyttle profite, excepte 1. Tim. 4. a. 3.1 Tim 4they hauehave wyth them the thinges, by reaſon whereoff they are ordayned, to what ende can ſackecloth and aſſhes ſerue: eſpecially after that ſorte as they are giuen at this daye, the which hath no lykelyhoode or agreeinge wyth the cuſtome of the auncient ſeruauntes of God? For they dyd not thincke to bée puryfied and ſanctyfied by thoſe aſſhes, nor that they ſhoulde bringe any health or ſaluation vntounto the ſoule by that ſprincklinge, as you doe by yours. Let the prayer, the which you doe vſe in the cenſecration and halowinge of them: bee a witneſſe in the which you doe praye God, that it woulde The bleſsing of aſshes. Miltere digneris ſanctum Angelum tuumdepleaſe hym to ſende his holy Angel from heauen, to bleſſe and ſanctifie theſe aſſhes, to the ende they maye bée a healthfull remedy vntounto all thoſe whiche doe call vponupon his celis, qui benet dical & ſanct …fiees hes …ueres & ….name: and that althoſe which de poure them vponupon them, maye receiue bealiſh of their body, and ſafegarde of their ſoule, for the redemption of their ſinnes. Thoſe aſſhes ſhould hauehave as much vertue as the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt. They ſhould hauehave yet more ſhew and colour, as already hath bene declared, to reſtore the auncient Iewiſth Ceremonye, The aſshes of an Heyſer. Numeri. 19. a. 2.and to make aſſhes of the younge heyfer, then to doe that that they doe, or to make them of a Calfe, as the Pomaines dyd. For they ſhoulde hauehave more coulor in the holy Scripture, in the which they ſhall finde no inſtitution of their aſſhes.

Hillarius.

If they doe not finde it in the holy Scripture. ought it not to ſuffice thée, that it is founde in the Balender of Ouid. But they doe adde moreouer that the Veſtalles wyth thoſe conſecrated aſſhes, for the purgation of the people: not onelyonly made wyth a Calfe, but Holy perſumes: The macter so make the aſshes Feria 4. cinerū ante miſſam be nedicuntur cineres facti de ramis benedictis pretcritis anniſi habentur in medio hore ante altare &c. Purgaroty of the quicke and the dead.alſo wyth ſtalkes and poddes of beanes, had perfumes of Brimſtone, of Torches, of the Laurell or Bay trée, of the Dliffes, of Roſemarye, and other lyke ſwéete and oderiferant trées and hearbes: of which your Miſſell teacheth you to make your aſſhe, to wytte of the boughes which were bleſſed the yeare before: and of the bandes and begins which they doe put on the little chyldren in their baptiſme and confirmation. Doſt thou thincke Euſebius, that thoſe thinges doe euyll agrée wyth your Ceremonies, and the purgations that you hauehave nas wel for the quicke as for the dead. For ſith that the bloud of Ieſus Chriſt is not ſufficient for you, it muſt néedes be that you hauehave a Purgatory both for the one and the other: But I hauehave yet forgotten, that at the feaſt of the dead, the Panims dyd ſhut their Temples, and couer and hide their images, as Ouid hath in lyke manner deſcrided by theſe verſes.

The Gods of Churches were ſhut vp,Faſt. 2.

with cloſe and priuy doores:

p. 172And alters wanted ſacrifice,

none incenſe on them poures,

Then did poore ſoules and bodies dead,

committed to the graue

Still ſtray abroade and feede on that

ſet for them then to hauehave.

The Athenians alſo vſed Ceremonies altogether like vntounto y^t feaſts of Praxiergide, which they celebrated in Athens in the monethmonth of February, to the which the one holdeth the ſecrete miſteries: one other pulleth downe all the ornamentes of the Temple, and an other couereth the Image that was there. Doe not you receiue and vſe yet at this day all in all, thoſe ſame manner of dooings, the which you hauehave referred to Lent, and doe ſtoppe the Coel. Rhod. lee.…ut. li. 14. ca. 9. To ſtoppe the Idolls noſes. The vayle. 2. Cor. 3. c. 1…2 Cor 3noſes of your Idolls, and hange a vayle before them, for to declare that it is taken no more from you then from the Iewes. I know not whether you be afraide leaſt they ſhould ſmel. the garlike which you eat in Lent. I wil leaue off to ſpeake of other ſperſtitions & Idolatries which you hauehave borrowed of the Panims. For I ſhould neuer make an ende. But I will onelyonly ſhew one part of thoſe which are deſcended from the feaſt of the dead, celebrated amōg the Panims, and of the purgations y^• they hauehave, aſwel for the quick as for the dead: to the ende thou ſhouldeſt know that euen as you hauehave followed thē for y^• purgations of the buing, ſo hauehave you done in thoſe of y^e dead.

Theophilus.

It ſéemeth alſo y^• Tertulian would referre, that which y^• Corinthians Teriul. aduerſ. Martio. b. s. & li. dere. cor. Baptiſme for the dead 1. Cor. 15. d. 291 Cor 15did baptize themſelues for y^e dead, to y^e Februales & purifiecations of the panims, as letting to vnderſtand, that where the Corinthians dyd baptize themſelues for the dead, was a ſuperſtition which they did yet kéepe of their auncient cuſtomes, crcept y^• in ſtéede of y^t paniſh ſuperſtitions, they did abuſe y^t baptiſme, thinking y^• it ought to ſerue for the dead, as we do ſée in our time y^t they hauehave applyed it vntounto the Lords ſupper, by the means of Maſſes y^t which The ſupper. for the dead.the ſuperſtitins Papiſts doe thinke to profit the dead, in whoſe name the Prieſt doth cōmunicate and ſing it. Although that the wordes of Tertulian are obſcure and very harde, yet to cramine them together, it ſéemeth verye well that he meaneth the ſame, and the auncientes hauehave almoſt all taken it after that manner: notwythſtandinge that others doe take it in an other ſence, and doe interprete that place of Sainct Paule, of thoſe which doe cauſe An other interpretation of the place. 1. Cor. 15.1 Cor 15themſelues to bée baptiſed, when they were in extreme ſickneſſe and néere vntounto death. For the cuſtome was that thoſe which came to the ſayth (which men call the Catechumenis, bicauſe they are inſtructed in the fayth The cuſtome of the Gatechumenus. Baptiſme deferred.and Chriſtian Religion) dyd not of cuſtome cauſe themſelues to bée ſodedinely baptiſed, vntill ſuche time as they were well inſtructed and taught in the ſecrete miſteries, and doctrine of the Chriſtian Religion. And therfore bycayſe they had the baptiſme in great reuernce, and dyd beléeue that thorow the ſame they had full remyſſion and forgiueneſſe of all their ſinnes, and were altogether renued, many taryed and referred to be baptiſed, vntyll they were lyke to dye, thinckinge that when they dyed in ſuch a ſtate, they were more purewr and cleaner from their ſinnes: the whiche they coulde neuer hauehave done, if they had not truelye beléeued and hoped for the immortalytie of the ſoules, and the reſurrection of the fleſhe. Although that the Apoſtles allowed not ſuche manner of dooinge. Thoſe which doe take the woordes of the Apoſtle after ſuch a ſence and meaninge, are induced to doe it, bicauſe that they thincke, that if the Apoſtle dyd vnderſtande and meane that of the Paniſh ſuperſtitions, that he would not hauehave paſſed it ouer, wythout To baptiſe thē ſelues for the dead.rebuking that errour: and doe expound it that they ſhould baptiſe themſelues of the dead: that is to ſay, as dead, and as people which repute themſeluesalready dead. I hauehave the willinger touched this, for to giuegive occaſion vntounto y^e readers, to examine well that place and the expoſition of the auncientes and others.

Hillarius.

We hauehave ſufficiently entreated of that matter Euſebius, and thinke that thou ſhalt hauehave ſomewhat to doe to ſeperate againſt that which p. 173we hauehave propounded, for to proue that your ceremonies, & prayers for the dead are taken of the true Church of Ieſus Chriſt. For I hauehave rehearſed vntounto thee one parte of the Popes Kalender, and mée ſéemeth that he ought to giuegive mée good wages for to end them all and his feaſts: as Ouid hath written thoſe of the Romaines.

Euſebius.

If thou haddeſt as well read the workes of Sainct Auguſtine, and of other auncient Doctors, as the bookes of Ouid and other Poets and Autors of the Panims, thou wouldeſt ſpeake otherwiſe, and thou ſhouldeſt not hauehave fallen into ſuch déepe rootes of errors and hereſles in which thou art wrapped in, in ſuch for that thou canſt not come forth, what ſo euer thing one may propound to the contrary.

Hillarius,

I gladly deſire, if that I am plounged in ſo déep[e error as thou ſayeſt that I am, that thou wouldeſt ayde and helpe me to come out of it: And if I hauehave not reade the auncient Doctors ſo diligently, as thou thinkeſt that thou haſte reade, I woulde that therein thou wouldeſt amende my faulte, and that thou couldeſt ſhewe mee ſo good out of their bookes, that I might hauehave occaſion to content my ſelfe. But I doe now know by experience, that that which I thought, is true. For I doubt very much, that euen as I hauehave ſayd at the beginning, all thy artillery, canons, and munititions with thy matter gunner Eccius, ſhould be all conſumed into ſmoke, as it appeareth vntounto mée at this preſent. I did looke for certeine ſtrong argumentes and that a great number of them, but if thou haſt no other weapons, thou art not ſo wel armed as thou vaunteſt thy ſelfe: except peraduenture there bee ſome thinge more excellent in the arriere garde.

Euſebius.

Sing not the triumph before the victory. For thou art yet very farre from thy rekoning, and from that thou thinckeſt, the ſtrongeſt is yet to doe. But with much a doe one could ſpeake a word before thée. Thou art of the nature of women. For thou muſt alwayes bee balinge, and thou wouldſt rather dye, but that thou wylt hauehave the laſt word. Thomas hath graunted vntounto mée this day, to put foorth my reaſons, and to aunſwere and relye vntounto yours: But euen as Theophilus and you doe? So muſt I yet hauehave a few dayes reſpite, before that I can bring that that I hauehave to ſay againſt you.

Theophilus.

Thou doeſt wronge to complaine, as for my part of thou canſt not ſay, that I euer did interrrupt thy talke, and but that I hauehave alwayes ſuffred al that thatthou wouldeſt ſpeake, hearing thée in all patience and modeſty.

Thomas.

I am well content for my part, to giuegive vntounto thée the day which I ought to hauehave for my ſelf, if this here be not ſufficient for thee. For I hauehave not ſo much learning and knowledge, but that I am more fitter to be a hearer then a Dector.

Hillarius.

Wée wil giuegive thée as long time as thou wilt. But peraduenture you do not vndeſtand where Euſebius griefe lieth and on whiche ſide his ſhooe wringeth him. I know not whether hee hath yet eate or dronke to day. As for mée yeſterdayes iorney admoniſhed mee to take a little, & to drinke a draught of wine before I came: the which thing is the cauſe, that I am not ſo much thirſtly as I was the day before: although that we hauehave bene a long tyme about the fire. As for Thomas. I beléeue that he hath bene no more euill avuiſed than I, and that he is no leſſe diſpoſed to drinke in the morning. Touching Theophilus and Euſebius, I feare very much but that they are yet faſting. For Theophilus is a man very ſtudious and fover, which to eate little & late, infomuch that I do more greatly eſteeme his ſobriety & dayly & ordinary abſtmence, then the faſtings of y^• prieſts & Moonks. As for E…ſel m…, he is ſo ſuperſtitious that he fauoreth …em what Mooukiſh. wherefore I doubt not, but for to make han obedient to y^• holy Mother the Romiſh Church, doth faſt, fith that according to the ordinaunce of the ſame, it is the day of faſt.

Euſebius.

it is néedefull, that I and others do faſt. For I am certeine, that if the faſtin…g had none other mainteiners p. 174then thou and ſuch as thou art, they ſhould bee ſoone aboliſhed. Hellarms. I know not what I ſhould voe, but at the leaſt I am at this day ayded to mainteine them: and a litle wanted, but that I hauehave learned theée to faſte after the auncient manner. But thou oughteſt not to finde that ſtraunge. For ſith that we hauehave ſpoken of faſting, it was in like manner requiſit to practiſe it. Yet neuertheleſſe the eueming and the night are not yet come, whiche was the time and the houre that the auncients vſed to reaſt themſelues on the faſting dayes. but to the end thou hauehave none occaſion to complaine, I thinke it beſt, that thou doe defer that which thou haſt yet to ſay, vntill after drinking: & for my part, I promiſe thee to ſuffer thée to ſpeake as much as thou wilt, and I will kéepe ſo good ſilence, that thou ſhalt not checke mée, as thou haſt now done.

Euſebius.

I am content with that thou ſaieſt, ſo thou do kéepe thy promiſe. But I greatly feare, that thou wilt do nothing.

Hillarius.

Thou ſhalt ſée, & before that thou do ſleepe thou ſhalt hauehave the experience. For I will leaue it ot thée and to Theophilus to do. Then let vsus go to refreſh our bodies, and in the meane time preprare thy ſelfe fot to fight valiantly.