The Christian Disputations, Dialogue 4 – Appendix

The Christian Disputations · Dialogue 4 – Appendix

THE SVMME OF THE fourth Dialogue.

BIcauſe that the enemies of the truth doe glory in themſelues that they hauehave the auncient Doctors on their ſide, for to mainteine their abuſes and ſuperſticions: in this Dialogue Euſebius trauayleth all that he can, for to vphold his Religion, & to proue his intent by the Eccleſiaſticall Doctors: vntounto whom Theophilus ſheweth how hee corrupteth and peruerteth the ſence and intelligence of their words, and how they do condemne the errors and abuſes of the Papiſtes: by occaſion whereoff, is alſo declared wherin ſomtime the auncient Doctors hauehave bene deceiued and ouercome, following more the opinion of men, then the certein witnes of the word of god: And when, & how the papiſtical Purgatory hath begun: what foundation, ſtay & ſhore it hath. It is alſo amply intreated of what original and beginning the priuate and perticuler Maſſes came, and the cuſtome to ſing them for the dead, and the diſpiſing of the holy ſacrament of the ſupper of Ieſus Chriſt, and of the true Chriſtian Communion. And therefore this Dialogue is entituled, the Age of the Maſſe and of Purgatory, bicauſe that it ſheweth how it was borne, encreaſed & augmented, & the Purgatory in like manner.

p. 175¶ THE FOVRTH DIALOGVE which is called the Age of the Maſſe and of Purgatory.

THomas.

As farre as I can preſume by the words which I hauehave heard of Euſebius, I truſt that I ſhal heare you to bring foorth a matter, the which will pleaſe mée wel, & which I deſire greatly to vnderſtand. For I ſée dayly, that men do blame you, which are taken and accompted for Heretickes, to corrupt & peruert the ſence of the holy Scriptures. Men doe vntounto you this honour, to ſay, that you will not receiue the witneſſe nor the authoritie, but of the holy Scripture, and that you doe proue by the ſame all that which you put foorth, hut all the euil is in this, that you take them to your aduan̄tage, and turne and wreſt them to your ſence and carnall intelligence, and therefore you will not receiue the expoſitions of the good Doctors. But I will ſée now, howe you canne beare it, and whether the Doctors of the Churche are of our ſide or on yours. And therefore I pray thée Euſebius, y^t thou doe purſue thine enterpriſe, and that thou ſhew forth ſo good places, that they cannot be eaſely plucked from thy hands, as they hauehave done thoſe which thou haſt alreadye taken of Sainct Ambroſe.

Euſebius.

If I would diſplay and ſhew foorth all that that I might alleadge, aſwel of the new and late Doctors as of the aun…ient, I ſhould aſwell ſet them a worke, as Hillarius did vaunt himſelfe of late to hauehave ſet mée on worke, but I hauehave not determined to alleadge others, but of the moſt auncienteſt and of thoſe whiche are of more greater authorite in the church, by the which I will plainly proue, that that which we doe now in the fauour of the dead, deſcended from the primatiue Churche and from the The propoſitiō and intent of Euſebiustraditions of the Apoſtles. For if I would bring foorth the Doctors of late dayes, they would by and by reicete and deſpiſe their authoritie, and woulde make none accompte of it: But when I ſhall hauehave proued, that the auncient Doctors of the Churche are on our ſide, I ſhall by and by allow and confirme the authoritie and witneſſe of the late Doctors, and will more eaſelier ſtoppe their mouthes: except they bée ſo paſt ſhame, that they care leproue and condemne all the holy men and Pillers of the Church, which hauehave ſhored and held it vppe in the time of the Apoſtles, and to affirme that there are not ſo manye good men and ſo wiſe and learned as they are.

Theophilus.

Thou ſhalt not finde vsus ſo vnreaſonable. Put foorth thy caſe, afterward Iudge whether wée hauehave reade and vnderſtanded thoſe of whom you doe glorye ſo much in.

Thomas.

I hauehave heard thée ſpeake friend Fuſebius of S. AuguſtinSainct Auguſtine namely among others, and I am of an opinion that he is the chiefeſt, by whom thou mayſt better fight, then by any other, if thou canſt finde in him a ſtrong ſtaffe for to defende thee and to make warre againſt them. For I hauehave vnderſtanded that there is none amonge al the auncient Doctors which wil ſerue thē better for to proue their ſect, then hée. Wherefore I am ſure, that if thou canſt do ſo much, that thou canſt proue that he is contrary vntounto them, they ſhall receiue a great ouerthrow, and thou ſhalt make a great breach in their Caſtle. For if hée ſo whome they hauehave their recourſe, be their enemie, they ſhal hauehave others which will riſe againſt them.

Euſebius.

But ſo well aſſured theroff, as thou are certeine that it is now daye. And to the end thou ſhouldeſt not thinke that there are but vaine wordes in my caſe, I will ſhew vntounto them the experience. What do thoſe wordes ſignifie which are written in his Encheridion: which are alſo recited in y^• decrets Confeſ li. 9. ca. 12. 13. Cha. 110. & 109 13. q. 2. ca tempus. 4. ſen…. diſt. 45. Ne…ue.and in the maſter of the ſentences, ſaying: we muſt not denye, that the ſoules of the dead are comforted thorewe the pietie and deuotion of their friends that be aliue, when the ſacrifice of a mediatour is offered for them, or that almes is done in the Church. But thoſe thinges doe p. 176profite thoſe who hauehave merited them during this lyfe, The authoritie of S. Auguſtin for the ſuffrages of the dead.to the ende that they maye afterwarde profite them. For there is a certeine manner of liuing, whiche is not ſo good but that it requireth thoſe things after death? nor ſo euil, but that after the ſame, they may profit him. But there is in lyke manner ſome kinde of lyfe ſo good, that it requireth not the ſame. And againe ſome ſo euill that The diuerſity of lyuesit cannot hauehave ayde by thoſe thinges, after that this life ſhalbe ended. And therefore hee getteth here all the merite, by whiche anye maye bee reléeued or gréeued after this life. Yet neuertheleſſe, there is none whiche hopeth to be able to merite towardes GOD, when he ſhall bée dead, whereoff hée hath not here made anye accempt. This then whiche the Churche hath frequented, for to prayſe the dead, is not contrary vntounto that ſentence of the Apoſtle, which ſayth: wée ſhall all bée brought before the Rom. 14. c. 10. 2. Cor. 5. b. 10Rom 142 Cor 5iudgement ſeat of Chriſt, that eueryevery man may receiue the workes of his body, according to that hée hath done, whether it hee good or badde. For euerye one acquireth and getteth that merite, when hée lyued in this bodye, that thoſe thinges maye profite him. For they profite not all men. And wherefore doe they not profite all men, but bycauſe of the difference of the lyfe, the whiche euerye one hathe lead in his bodye? Then when the Sacryfices, bée it of the Aulter, or of almes déedes, what ſoeuer they bée, they are offered for all the dead whiche hauehave bene baptiſed, thoſe are giuing of thankes for thoſe whiche hauehave bene verye good: and propitiations for thoſe whiche hauehave not bene very euill, for to make God fauorable vntounto them. But for the moſte wicked and euill, although that there bée not aydes and helpes for the dead, yet neuertheleſſe thoſe are certeine conſolations for the lyuing. But they doe profite thoſe that they doe profite, eyther to the ende that they maye hauehave full remiſſion and forgiueneſſe: or without all …eubt, to the ende that the dampnation maye bée more tollerable and eaſier to beare.

Thomas.

Hath Sainct Auguſtine written that?

…uſebius. Doeſt thou thinke mée ſo much a foole, that & would declare it otherwiſe? I warrant you they would not let mee paſſe ſo, if they might ſaye the contrary. But I am certeine they dare not do it. And though they woulde, they cannot. For the booke is of faith and credit.

Thomas.

Thoſe wordes are very cléere, not onelyonly for to proue the prayers for the dead, but alſo the ſacrifice of the …ulter.

Euſebius.

One cannot finde a thing more cléerer. For it openeth ſo plainely all the matter perticulerly, and goeth before the obiections & replyings, which thoſe that do ſpeake againſt it might make. For it deuideth the diuers manners to liue, and diuers merites of men: And giueth In. ſer…le vir. apo. & in gleſ. ſuper ulud. …. Theſſa. 4. Nolimus: de agentibus curs. promor. 13. q 2. ca. non eſtimantusto vnderſtand, that it muſt bée hée which woulde that ſuch good déedes ſhould bée profitable vntounto him after hys death, ſhould be here conducted in ſuch ſorte, that they may profit him: that is to ſay, that it muſt bée that he dye confeſſed and repentant. And hée ſpeaketh not onelyonly this in this place, but in manye other like, amongeſt whiche hée addeth yet this: that notwithſtanding that that which we do for the dead, profit not all thoſe, for whom wée doe them. Yet neuertheleſſe bicauſe we do not know to whom it profiteth. we muſt do thē to all, y^• we leaue none out. For it is a greate deale better that thoſe to whome it can neither profit nor hurte, ſhould hauehave more then they neede, then to want any thing vntounto thoſe which hauehave neede. And in the ſame booke he ſaith moreouer: wee doe reade in the ſecond booke of the Machabees, that ſacrifice was offred for the dead, but when one readeth them not in the auncient ſcriptures, the authoritie of the vniuerſall Church is not little, the which hath this cuſtome, that in the prayers of the Prieſtes, which they doe make vntounto God at his aulter, the recommendation of the ſoules hath alſo his place. And did …not Monica the Mother of Sainct Auguſtine, require that they ſhould make remembraunce of hir in the ſacrament of the aulter? For that cauſe hath Sainct Gregory written, that the ſoules of the dead are deliuered in ſcure manners p. 177and ſorts, either by the oblations of the Prieſtes, Vnde verſus exſiella clerice. & 10. chaneſ. de ſacram. M…ſſa, preces, …ona, tetunia, quatuor iſta. Abſoluimus animas quas purgans detinet ignis.or by the prayers of the Sainctes: or by the aimes of their friendes: or by the faſtinges of their parents. I doe not thincke, that theſe two learned men, would hauehave written ſuche thinges, wythout hauinge foundation of the holye Scriptures. And it is not lyke, that the Church hath kept that cuſtome ſo longe time, but that ſhée was well aſſured that it came from the Apoſtles, and afterwardes was augmented and ordayned by Origene, as witneſſeth Iſidore. for from the tyme of Sainct Denis and Tertulian, who were next vntounto the Apoſtles, they made prayers, ſacrifyces and oblations for the dead. For Sainct Denis maketh expreſſe mention D…rand in rati. diu… off. li. 7 Rub de off. mort. Diony. li eccle. hier cap. 7.of the prayer which the Biſhop made for the dead, that God woulde pardon him all that that hée myght hauehave committed through mans infirmitie, and that he woulde place him in lyght, and in the region and countrey of the liuinge, and in the boſome of Abraham … and Iacob. It is in lyke manner written in Tertulian wee doe make yéerely one daye …oblation for the dead. I hauehave declared vntounto thée many witneſſes and of great authoritie. I hauehave alledged vntounto thee the cuſtome of the auncient Church: which is a witneſſe which is worth a thouſande. I hauehave alledged vntounto thée the practiſe of the auncient Doctors. They doe ſufficiently declare, both they hauehave vſed, and chiefely Sainct Auguſtine: who … feſtly witneſſeth, that the ſame was ordeyned of the authors, 4. ſent. diſt. 45 neque. Sermo de verſ. apo in glo. ſuper illud. 1. Theſſ. 4 Nelumus.1 Thess 4which the vniuerſall Church kéepeth, that is no ſay, that for thoſe which are dead in the communion of the body and bloud of Chriſt, when one maketh remembraunce of them in their place, in the ſinne very ſocrifice, that one ought to maye, and make remembraunce, that one doe alſo offer that ſacrifice for them.

Wherefore he ſayth, that we muſt not omit the ſupplication, the which the Church hath taken in charge to doo De cur. pro. mor agere. cap. 4. Quaſt …d. dul…for the ſpirites and ſoules of all the dead, which are departed in the Chriſtian ſociety and company.

Theophilus.

I thinke that thou haſt very ſtrongly dyſplayed and ſet foorth the principall weapons that thou canſt finde for to defende thy quarrell, and that if I hauehave once ſatiſfied thoſe obiections, I beleeue that the matter ſhall bée ended as ſoone as hée toucheth the witneſſe and authoritie of the auncient fathers. As touching Sainct Denis and the authour of that booke of the celeſtiall and eccleſiaſticall Hieratchies, I hauehave already The anſvver & ſolution to the obiections.ready tolde thée what it was. For who knoweth not, that that booke of the celeſtiall Hierarchia, is more worthy to be ſome dreamer, then of Sainct Denis the Diſciple Denis Areopagite. Act. 17. g. 34.Acts 17of Sainct Paul? For it hée had written eyther of the Angels or of the order of the Church, hée had woulde rather hauehave followed Sainct Paule his Maſter, then the dreames of his owne head: and hée woulde not hauehave ſpoken of ſuch matters, otherwiſe then hée in his Epiſtles. If thou doe diligently reade that booke of Denis, whatſoeuer it bée, thou ſhalt there finde, that the prayers which are made at the burials are made for thoſe that bée aliue, and not for the dead: And doth confirme that which wée hauehave already ſpoken off, of the manner whiche the auncientes had to prayſe the dead. Wherefore it ſhoulde not bée néedefull to reiterate that whiche alreadye hath bene opened before, if thou wouldeſt vnderſtande that which one telleth thée: But wee are alwayes to beginne wyth thée. I hauehave already ſufficiently declared vntounto thee, from what originall and beginninge the commemoration which is done for the dead in the Church came firſte, and what hath bene the cuſtome of the auncient fathers, the which was altogether contrary from that whiche is nowe in the Popiſh Church. Wherefore that whiche thouhaſt alledged of Denis and Tertulian doth confirme my matter, as I wyll proue vntounto thee by Cyprian, that holy Martyr, who hath read and well vnderderſtanded Cyprian.Tertulian, if euer man dyd vnderſtand him. For hee had him in ſuch reputation that hee dyd call him The prayſe of Tertulian.no otherwyſe but the Maſter thorowe his great excellentneſſe: p. 178Inſomuch that when hée woulde reade in hys bookes, he ſayde alwayes, bringe mée the maſter. And the better to declare the pleaſure that hée dyd take in readinge him, and the fruite that one myght therein learne & receiue, they ſaye that hee laide it at nyght when hée went to bed, vnderunder vys pillolue that hee nyght hauehave it alwayes ready at hande, when hee woulde occupye and looke in it: as the auncient hiſtoryes doe alſo wytneſſe, that Alexander the great dyd myth the bookes of Homere. For hée giueth vsus ſufficiently to vnderſtande that the commemoration and the oblations which are done for the dead, in that auncient Churche, were none other thinges then the prayſes and giuinge of thankes, which the faythfull did render vntounto God, for the mercy that he did vntounto their bretheren, whome hée hath called from this world: with the other thinges, whiche hauehave bene already ſpoken off, which are yet done at this daye in ſome places in Almaigne, after the auncien… manner. But they doe call commonly the oblation and ſacryfice, the diuine ſeruice, and that which they dyd in theire aſſembles in which they did obſerue chiefly foure things: The firſt was the prophecie and preaching of the worde of God. After the prayers. Afterwards the ſupper, and laſt vvhat doth the ſacrifice ſignifie in the auncient church.of all, the gatherings and almos for the poore. And they did call that oblation and ſacrifice: not that they dyd vnderſtand and meane to offer and ſacrifice: Ieſus Chriſte, as the Prieſts ſay that they doe in their Maſſe. But bicauſe The order of the aſſembles of the auncient church. Act. 2 g. 46 The chriſtian ſacrifices. Rom. 13. a 1 Heb. 13 c. 15 Pſal 50. c. 14. 2. Cor. 8. 2. 4Acts 2Rom 13Heb 13Ps 502 Cor 8:22 Cor 8:4that the Biſhop and Paſtor of the church, and al the Chriſtian people did come to offer & preſent themſelues vntounto god, & did offer vntounto hym their oriſons & giuing of thanks, which are y^• true ſacrifice of praiſe. And their almes in like manner, for to cōfort y^• poore people of Ieſus Chriſt: They are thoſe which the Apoſtle calleth offerings agreeable vntounto God. And they did make cōmemoration of the death & paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt in celebrating the holy ſupper. Wherfore we muſt not thinke, y^• they did make prayers & offerings for the dead, to the ende they ſhould be deliuered frdi… the paines of Purgatory; as hath bene done in our time: But the praiers were the prayſes, and thanks that they rendered vntounto God, and exhortations and admonitions which they dyd make by his word vntounto thoſe that bée liuinge. The offeringes were of the almes that the faythfull dyd bring, for to ſuccour & helpe the poore which were liuing. And therefore long time amonge the auncientes, Hiſt. tri. li. 6. ca 28. & li. 7. ca. 31. 32.that diuine ſo…ke that they dyd in their aſſemblies, was called Collectes, that is a gathering, for two cauſes. The firſt bycauſe that the people was ther aſſembled, and gathered into a Communion. The other bicauſe that in thoſe holy aſſembles, they dyd make gatheringes for the poore after the example of the primitiue Church. Behold the name of the Chriſtian aſſemblies, which hath longe contynued amonge the auncientes, before that the name of Maſſe was borne. As it appeareth by the eccleſiaſticall hyſtories, as well by that ſame of Euſebius, as by that which is called Tripertite: As for the name of the Maſſe, it is nowe inough. Although that ſome are yet of opinion, that that name came of the ſame cauſe, wherefore the diuine ſeruice hath alſo bene called Collectes: gatheringes, and that it hath bene called maſſe, bicauſe that in the ſame the offerings were brought, which were there ſent, for to giuegive them vntounto the poore. For Miſſa in Latine, ſignifieth things ſent. And thoſe that are of that opinion, doe thinke that all that which they doe, and bring into thoſe aſſembles, was called Miſſa in the plurall number: of which they hauehave made Miſſa and Miſſe, in the ſinguler number. And by good right. For then when the offeringes are diſtributed vntounto the poore, one maye well call them Miſſa in the plurall number, that is to ſaye, ſent. For they were ſent, and deuided vntounto many.

But nowe the Prieſtes doe wronge to call it, Miſſa, in the ſinguler number, that is to ſaye, ſent. For the offeringe is not ſent but vntounto them. Wherefore they ſhould hauehave more reaſon to cal it, kept, then ſent. For they do kepe al for themſelues. They hauehave wel kept the name of Collect. p. 179But in ſtéede of Collect, ſignifieth, amonge the auncyents, all the content of the diuine ſeruice, they do call by that name the prayers and Oremus that they doe ſinge before the Epiſtle, Wherein well appeareth what was the cuſtome of the auncientes: and that the Deacons did make the gathering for the poore: The which thoſe héere doe make for themſelues, and doe ſinge the Epiſtle vntounto the Deacons. But for to retourne vntounto the prayers for the dead, and for to vnderſtande that that which I ſpeake is true. Marke what Saincte Cyprian wryteth, of one Cypr. li. 4. epiſt. 5. Celerin and his family.called Celerin, who hath had a familie: the which almoſt all ſuffered martyrdome, of whom he hath written after this manner: It is longe a gone, that Celerin was crowned for a Martyr. Item, his vnckle of the fathers ſide, and Laurence his vndle on the mothers ſide, and Ignacius, which ſometime hauehave fought and bene ſouldiers in the worldly warre, but béeinge the true and ſpirituall ſouldiers of God, hauing ouercome the diuell thorow the profeſſion of Chriſt, hauehave obtayned of the Lorde the rewardes and crownes, thorowe his glorious paſſion. We doe offer alwayes, as you remember, ſacrifices for them, Sacrifices for the Martirs.as often as wée celebrate the paſſions of the martyres. and that we make commemoration and remembraunce vniuerſally of their dayes. Sith that hée witneſſeth that Laurence and Ignacius hauehave receyued as béeing victoryous the palmes and and crownes of martyrdome, there is no doubte, but that they are already holden for Saintes and bleſſed: and doe not thinke that they were yet deteyned Auguſt. in epiſt ad Hebr. ca. 12 Extra de cele miſſ. cum Mat. ca. vlt. Sent. 4. diſt. 45. Neque. Gloſan 13. q. 2 caaempus. Imurs. m facit Martirs qui orat pro Martiriin the paines of Purgatorye, and that wée muſt make prayers and ſacrifices for them, that they myght bée deliuered from their ſinnes and paines. The thinge is ſo plaine that none can denye it. For this ſentence is very common and allowed amonge you, and by your Canons: That hée that prayeth for a Martyr, doth wrong and iniurye to the Martyre. For I doubte not, but that in ſucceſſe of time, all thinges will bée come worſe. And aboue all I wyll aduertiſe thée, that thou haſt not proued vntounto me that that manner of dooing was ordained by the Apoſtles in the primitiue Church. For ſainct Auguſtine and others, whome thou haſt alledged, doe make mencion that the auncient fathers, hauehave bene the authours and inuentours of that cuſtome, and that the Church of longe time hath kept it: But they declare not, that Ieſus Chriſt nor his Apoſtles, hauehave commaunded and ordained it. And although that that Denis which Dyoni. hier eccle. ca. 7.hath written the Hierarchies, maketh onelyonly in one word mencion of the prayer for the dead which are buryed, yet he proueth not by the holy Scripture, that wée ought to doe it: and hée ſpeaketh not one woorde of Purgatorye. But yet that that hée toucheth of the prayer for him whiche one buryeth, is written after a ſorte, that he doth ſufficiently declare that if was a vowe and a deſire that the faithfull had of his health and ſaluation, and a witneſſe that they doe giuegive, not that the ſame came of an opinion that they had eyther of Purgatory, nor of the paines which the ſoules of the faithfull ſhoulde ſuffer after their departinge from this life. Wherefore their witneſſe ſerueth mée, for to proue, at the leaſtwiſe that ſuche cuſtome is not of the ordainaunce of the Apoſtles, ſith that they cannot bring foorth any other certeine wytneſſe, but that they report it vntounto the auncient fathers For by that which hath bene already declared and expreſſed, it is eaſely to know what the commemoration of Martyres hauehave bene, and of the faithfull that bée dead ſithence the tyme of Tertulian and Cyprian. And doubt not but that that which the auncients hauehave done, was partlye and principally for to aboliſh the Parentales and other ſuperſtitions which the Gentiles had about the dead, as already hath bene amply declared. For they did thinke that it would be very hard ſo pul them away, if in ſtéed of their cuſtomes, they had not put in ſome other, for ſo content them & for them to muſe and ſtudye oil: As wée maye ſée by that Ad. Aurel. epi. 64.which Sainct Auguſtine hath written, of gluttony and dronkenneſſe which was vſed in his time of the buryalls p. 180of the dead and in halowinge the Churchyardes. He ſayth that they cannot bée abolyſhed, if one dooe not forbid that villany by the Scriptures, and that the oblations which they make for the ſoules of the deade vppon theire ſepulchres, bée not ſumptuous, nor of great coſt, and that one ſhoulde giuegive cheerefully and wythout pride, vntounto all thoſe that demaunde it, and that they ſell them not. But if there bée any that will offer anye money, that it bée diſtrubuted preſently vntounto the poore. Sainct Auguſtine gyueth ſufficientlye to vnderſtande that the auncientes hauehave bene conſtrayned to inuent and bring foorth many Ceremonyes in the Churche, for to chaſe and driue awaye the Idolatry and ſuperſtition of the Panims: The which alſo afterwardes were corrupted, as wée may ſée this day by experience, inſomuch that they are more daungerous, then thoſe of the Panims, I thinke that that which hath bene alreadye entreated, of the feaſt of Sainct Peters chaire, the whiche they celebrate in February, agréeth to that very purpoſe whereoff Sainct Auguſtine hath ſpoken.

Hillarius.

It is moſt true, that thoſe auncient fathers would hauehave driuen away the ſuperſtition by ſuch inuentions, as wée do driue out a pinne with one other pinne. But they were not muche profitable vntounto the Church.

Theophilus.

After that manner came the cuſtome to make commemoration of the dead in the eccleſiaſticall aſſembles and in the celebration of the ſupper, ouer and beſide the cauſes before alledged. And afterwardes by little and little, the ſuperſtition hath begun, and is augmented vntounto this which we doe now ſée it. We hauehave no example The beginning of Maſſes for the dead.in all the holy Scripture, that the Apoſtles hauehave done any thing of this. About the time of Tertulian and of Cyprian, there was no queſtion neither of Purgatory, nor of prayers nor offeringes, for to delyuer the ſoules, but ſuch which wée hauehave ſéene. About the tyme of Ambroſe and Auguſtine, the ſuperſtition dyd beginne very much to take roote and to increaſe, inſomuch that in ſtéede of ſimple commemorations, giuinge of thanckes, and exhortations, which they made in celebratinge the memory of the dead, they had already begunne to dyſpute, that the prayers dyd profite them: and that the The beginning of Purgatory.queſtion of Purgatorye was alreadye begunne to bée ſturred vp. For it is very eaſie for men, yea, the moſt ſage and wyſeſt, to fall into ſuperſtition, bicauſe that it is naturall vntounto vsus, and chiefely about the dead, by reaſon of an affection and louelove that wée doe beare vntounto our parentes and friendes, whome wée cannot forget, although they be abſent from vsus, but wée doe abide and continue alwayes affectioned towardes them, as though we might greatly ayde them, yea, many tymes more after they bée dead then before when they were alyue. From thence it commeth that we are ſo much inclined to inuent and receiue eueryevery thing that wee thincke maye ſerue them. And althoughe in déede it ſerueth them to no ende, yet neuertheleſſe wée cannot refraine our ſelues, bycauſe that. wée thinke that wée doe féele comforte and ſatyſfaction to our affection, iudgeinge the affection of the dead, after our owne, our dealinges is fowardes them, as towardes God. What is the originall and begynninge of all Idolatry, but our fooliſhe fantaſſe and affection, by the which wée doe meaſure God, thinkinge that The original & beginning of all Idolatry.hée taketh pleaſure to that that pleaſeth vsus? Wherefore wée ſerue him not after his wyll, but after ours. For in makinge feaſtes, in repoſinge our ſelues, béeinge apparayled with goodly robes and gownes, makinge greate chéere, hearinge goodly ſinginges and melodyes, walkinge about and paſſinge the time in goinge a proceſſion, w…e thincke that wee doe ſerue God well. But what ſeruice doe w…e vntounto him? Doe we not rather ſerue our ſelues and our affections, making vntounto vsus a God altogether like vntounto our ſelues, deliting our ſelues in the like vanities? As much is happened vntounto vsus aboute the dead.Fooliſsh aſſeſtiō towards y^• dead.

Hillarius.

When a man is angry, yet it doth him much p. 181good to reuenge himſelfe vponupon ſome one, for to make hym paſſe away his ſorrow and anger, although hée do receiue no great profit. Euen ſo when a man is in ſorrowe and beauines, for the death of his friend, hée muſte hauehave ſome ſolace and comfort, for to comfort his ſorrow & heauineſſe. And thereoff it came that the woman that loueth well hir huſbande, or the mother, hir childe, oftentymes cannot refrayne to kiſſe them after that they ſhalbe dead, or to embrace them, & ſome time with more greater affection, then euer ſhe dyd during the tyme that he lyued. But wheretoo profiteth all that, eyther to the quick or dead?

Thomas.

Nothing at all.

Hillarius.

And yet neuertheleſſe y^• doth great good vntounto hir that doth it, and ſh…e is ſo affectioned.

Theophilus.

Of The originall of Im…ges. Sap…en. …. …. b. 15ſuch affection came in like manner the beginning to make Images, as it ſhewed vntounto vsus in the booke of wiſdome, yea almoſt the beginning of all Idolatry, as all y^• auncient Fathers do witnes, eſpecially Lactantius & Euſebius. Lact. de fal. rcl li. a. ca. 13. Euſeb. de pra ena li. 3. ca. 8For the men for the affection that they did beare vntounto the dead to comfort the ſorrow that they had, & to remember them, and beſides to honour them, they made Images, and ſet vppe ſumptuous Sepulcres in their honour. Afterwardes they began to buyld Temples and Chappels hard by their graues, and to ſet therein their Images. Afterwardes in ſucceſſe of time, all was conuerted and chaunged into great ſuperſtition and I…olatry. And euen as it begun among the Panims, ſo is it entred among the Chriſtians, The beginning of the Idolatry among the Chriſti…is.by occaſion of the Sepulcres of the Martirs. For they hauehave begunne to make there their Eccleſiaſticall aſſemblies, to go thither to watch, and pray vntounto God, and to celebrate the ſupper. Afterwarde they hauehave builded Chappels and Temples, and hauehave ordeyned Annuall feaſtes. And after that thoſe foundations were once ſette vppe, which was yet ſome thing tollerable, the thinge was afterwardes peruerted. Inſomuche that in ſtéede of the Candles that they caryed for to watch all the night, they The …ardell… of a good ….began to offer them to the Saincts, and to their Images. In ſteede of the prayers y^• were made vntounto god, they hauehave begun to addreſſe & direct thē vntounto them. In ſt…ede of y^t ſupper … of S…mes.y^• they celebrated in y^• name of y^• death & paſſiō of Ieſus Chriſt, they hauehave alſo begun to adoe the …ememoration of y^• Saynts & Sayntes: And theroff came y^t Commemorantes which is in y^• Eauen of the Maſſe, in which they doe make Comm…morites…p…ſſe remēbrance, of ſome Saints & Saint…s. And afterwards by little & little, in ſt…ede of y^• ſimple cōmmoration which is done of y^• Saincts & Sanctes, they hauehave begun to giuegive vntounto eueryevery one of …, his Maſſe al whelly, inſomuch y^• there is neither Saynt nor Sayntes, but hath one, & that they do cal vponupon it in ſteed of God, & vntounto whom y^• Prieſts hauehave not giuen ſome occupacion & office for to helpe & aide God in ſo many affaires. And after y^• ſathan hath ſo well augmented his ſtuffe, vnderunder y^• title of Martyrs, & of their Cēmemorations, to y^• ende y^• nothing ſhould remaine, but y^• it ſhould be ful of …dolatry & ſuperſtition, he hath alſo loūd y^• meanes to make mé muſe after y^• are dead, after an other manner. For to make them al to be worſhiped as Saincts he could not. Alſo he knew very wel, y^• after y^e damned, men wil not much traualic nor beſtowe any coſt. And therfore he hath ſound a third order.

Hillarius.

There doth lacke but one, but y^• ther ſhould be as many as of y^• orders …rders of th… dead.of y^e beggers. But they hauehave it already. For y^• Limbe is, for y^• fourth order.

Theophilus.

Therfore hath he begunne in a luckey howre, ye a ſithens y^• time of Auguſtin, to forge the Purgatory: although y^• thē, it was not receiued nor allowed, as an article of faith, but they diſputed only, as of an opinion, which hath ſome colour & ſhew. For although y^• S. Auguſtin moued y^• queſtiō, & touched ſome thing y^• matter, The queſtion of ….yet neuertheleſſe he hath determined or concluded nothing for certein, but rather to y^• contrary. He hath writtē, y^• ther were ſome which did thinke that there was a certeine fire of Purgatory, & that the thing was not incredible. But yet neuertheleſſe, he …urſt not affirme it, but ſpake of it as of a thing doubtſull and incertein: notwithſtanding that hee …emeth to bee of an opinion, that the prayers made for the p. 182dead, did profit them. But when all ſhal be well conſidered, what witnes or what example doth hee alledge out of the holy Scripture, either of the olde or new teſtament, ſufficient for to proue and confirme that doctrine? I… he ſhewe foorth vntounto me y^• cuſtome of the aūcient Church, & the traditions of the Apoſtles, I will demaunde vponupon the ſame the witnes or example of the holy ſcripture, or of the primitiue Church. For I am certeine he ſhall not finde it. It is then neceſſary, that we do come to the next age, as was the time of Tertulian, Ireneus and other like: and afterwards from The time of Tertul…n and Cyprian.thence vntounto the ſame of Cyprian. For I hauehave already proued by their writings, that in thoſe times they did not make ſuch prayers for the dead, as they were after the time of Sainct Auguſtin. For they did them not to the intent to helpe & ſuccour the dead, but they directed them vntounto God only, for to giuegive him prayſe & for to demaund his grace & mercy towards the lyuing: euen as then the Commemorations of the Martyrs w…ich were done about their Sepuleres, to the glory of God & conſolation of the liuing, hauehave b…ne conuerted & chaunged to y^• inuocation of ſaincts, & they hauehave made Idols of thē, ſo the cōmemoration which is done of other that be dead, hath bene chaunged into meritorious prayers, for to draw thé from paine, & ſucceſſiuely ſithency that one hath learned the cuſtom to make a certein remēbrance & mention in y^• eccleſiaſtical aſſibles thei came afterward to y^• point to make y^• cōmemoration in y^• ſupper Remembraunce of the de … in the ſupper.for to witnes y^• they held thē of whō in y^• ſame they made remēbrance for true faithful & catholicke, & of y^• cōmunion of ſaints which in y^• ſupper is repreſ…t…d. … y^• ſame manner ought we to vnderſtád y^• which S. Auguſtin hath writté of y^• remēbrance which they celebrated for y^• dead, in the ſacrifice of y^• aulter & of a mediator, by which we ought not to vnderſtād a ſacrifice, in which Ieſus chriſt our only mediator The ſacrifice of the aulter & of a mediator.is offred to god his …ather, for y^• rediption of our ſouls, as he was offred vpō y^• tr…e of y^• croſſe, & after y^• manner as y^• prieſts do glory & boaſt thēſelues at this preſent time to offer in their Maſſe, according to y^• witnes of their Canon. For there is but one ſuch Sacrifice, the whiche Ieſus hath Heb. 7. d. 17Heb 7once offered, which of none other can be done, but of him alone, who is the Prieſſe and euerlaſting biſhop, after the order of Melchizedec, if we wil not be lye the holy Ghoſt, who ſpake by the mouth of the holy Apoſtle.

Thomas.

Of what Sacrifice then doth Sainct Auguſtine ſpeake off?

Theophilus.

Thou oughteſt to vnderſtand … ſortes of … The ſacrifice of reconciliation.that there bee two ſortes of Sacrifices, whiche doe comprehend all y^• other. The firſt is y^• ſacrifice of reconciliation & redemption, for to deliuer the ſinners from the yre and wrath of God: But this apperteyneth but to Ieſus Chriſt alone, of whom y^• Leuiticall ſacrifices wer but a ſhadow The ſacrifice of thankes giuingand figure. The other is y^• ſacrifice of praiſe & thanks giuing, by which we may comprehend al y^• workes of the faithfull, by which they do prayſe God, and doe trauiale to Auguſt. li. 10. de ciut. Dei. c. …. 6be ioyned vntounto him. As Sainct Auguſtine doth expounde it. Now foraſmuche as the ſacrament of the holye ſupper of our Lord, is one of the principall things that the church But ſacrifice the ſupper is.hath, for to glorifie God, rightly it was called by the auncients, ſacrifice, as not long agoe hath bene touched: not by reaſon that Ieſus Chriſte is offred vntounto God by vsus: But bicauſe that he offreth himſelfe vntounto vsus, and that thorow faith we receiue it, and render vntounto him it, ankes for the greate benefit that he hath done for vsus, giuing himſelfe to the death for vsus: and we confeſſe and proteſt, that wee doe not take nor holde anye other for a ſauiour then hée onelyonly, nor we accept any mans ſacrifice but his. For that cauſe hath the ſupper in like manner bene called Euchariſtia by the Greeks: The which word ſignifieth giuing of Euchariſ…ia.thankes. After the ſame manner hauehave Sainct Auguſtine and other anncient Doctors of the Churche vnderſtanded it. And they vnderſtand not by the aulter any other thinge The materiall … of the Church.but the table vponupon which y^• Church hath vſed to celebrate the ſupper, making alluſion vntounto the aulters of the auncient law and hauehave regarde to that ſacrifice of thankes gyung, which in the ſupper is offred vntounto god by his church. Behold the eſtate which was in the Church touching that p. 183poynt, in the tyme of Sainct Auguſtine, which was about The time of S. Auguſtinefoure hundreth yeares after the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt, in which the church dyd begin then very much to degenerate and to be corrupted. For after that one once had begonne to myngle the commemoration of the dead with that of Ieſus Chriſte (for which onelyonly the ſupper is celebrated, not for ſinfull men, who hauehave not redemed vsus by their death) from one opinion and error, it is fallen into another, in ſuche ſorte that men are fallen into ſuch dreaming…, that they hauehave thought that y^• ſupper, to the which thoſe that were a lyue dyd cōmunicate, dyd profyt the dead, and that they might take it for them, and to their health & ſaluation, after the ſame manner as they dyd the other ſuffrages in theyr name.

Hillarius.

If we will vnderſtand that which ſaint Paul hath wrytten of the Corinthians, which To take the ſupper for y^• dead. 1. Cor. 15. d. 291 Cor 15baptiſed themſelues for the dead, after the ſence in which the auncients hauehave taken it, we ſhould hauehave no leſſe reaſon to excuſe them, then thoſe here. For if I may take the ſupper for an other man, wherefore may I not in lyke manner be baptiſed for him? I thinke that they will not graunte we that, that one may be baptiſed for an other, and that Baptiſme for the dead.that baptiſme doth profite him, and yet leſſe to the dead then to the lyuing.

Theophilus.

It is well founde out, who hauehave bene of that opinion, that they may be baptiſed for the dead, which without baptiſme were departed out of Reiſerſperg. de mort. virt ſer. Domi. 3. aduen Tho. 4. diſt. 45 q. 6.this world, & that y^• baptiſme profiteth them. But the Doctors queſtionaries, and namely. Thomas of Aquin, benyeth it and condempneth that opinion.

Hillarius.

If I may not then be baptiſed for the dead, whereto ſerueth or profiteth the ſupper that I ſhall take for them? For it hath not bene more ordayned for the dead then the baptiſme, but both of them were for the lyuing, aſwell the one as the other, ſith that both of them are Sacraments, giuen vntounto the militant Church, and which is yet couered and wrapped in this fleſh.

Theophilus.

There is nothing more certeyne. And yet neuertheleſſe behold how the one of the errors hath drawen the other after him, inſomuch that they hauehave begun to apply the ſupper, for to comfort the dead, and it ſeemeth that thoſe for whom they do make commemoration, do no leſſe participate, then thoſe which do there communicate in their name. But yet they hauehave not holden themſelues to t…at, but are fallen into another error more importable, altogether to tourne vpſide downe and ouerthrow the inſtitution of the ſupper, and hauehave defouned it, The ſupper d…ormed.inſomuche that it ſéemeth nothing at all like to the communion that the Saints hauehave with Ieſus Chriſt, and amongſt them, but it was altogether like vntounto an excommunication. For at the beginning, when that the Chriſtians The originall and beginning of the priuate Maſſes.did begin to communicate at the ſupper for the dead, that was no leſſe permitted to the lay people, and vntounto eueryevery one of the chriſtians, as to the miniſters of y^• church, vntil ſuch time as the ſupper hath takē the name of Maſſe, the which is not ſo auncient, as the Papiſts woulde affirme. The antiquitie of the name of Maſſe.Luſebius. Wilt thou deny that Sainct Iames the Apoſtle, hath not ordeined it and ſonge it, as the decretall witneſſeth?

Theophilus.

It is very nóedefull that a lyer hauehave a good memory, or otherwiſe he ſhall oft be taken in a trap. How ſhall they which are of diuers opinions among you accord The authors of the Maſſe. De conſ…diſt. 1. ca. lacobus.touching that point. For the one ſaith that Sainct Peter did ſing the firſt Maſſe in Antioch. An other the contrary that Saint Iames did ſing it in Hreruſalem. Others would refer it vntounto Baſil the great. If they did vnderſtand and meane by the Maſſe the ſupper. I will not altogether gain ſ…y them. For I doubt not, but that thoſe there hauehave truely celebrated the ſupper, following the example of Ieſus Chriſt their maſter: But read all the bookes of the true ſeruants of God, which hauehave bene ſithens Moſes, vntounto the time of Gregory the great (who hath reigned almoſte about ſeuen or eight hunoreth yeres after the death of Ieſus The tyme of Gregory.Chriſt) and afterwards tell mee if euer thou haſt ſound the name of Maſſe: except it be in ſome wicked & corrupted …ooke, or that it is falſely mutulod with the name of good auncient Doctors: or if it be at ſome time founde, it is very p. 184ſeldome, and in an other ſignification and manner then it is now vſed. But the name is but a ſmall thing, if wee doe accorde in the principall thing. Although it were ſo, that y^• name of the Maſſe ſhoulde be very auncient, and that it is oftentimes found in the bookes of the auncient Doctors, notwithſtanding it followeth not therefore, that theyr Maſſe was lyke vntounto yours at this preſent. For how much might one hauehave added vntounto it, ſithence the tyme of the Apoſtles, if it had bene in the Church, ſith that ye do yet dayly adde vntounto it, and ye neuer hauehave done.

Euſebius.

That ſame is done for the honeſtie and reuerence of the Sacrament and for his ſolempnitie, and moreouer to bewrifie it. And therefore thou deceaueſt thy ſelfe, in that thou thinkeſt, that there is contradiction amongſt vsus. For we do not vnderſtande or meane that ſaint Iames, or Saint Peter, or any other to hauehave inſtituted the Maſſe, then Ieſus Chriſte him ſelfe, the whiche afterwardes his diſciples did beginne to ordeine and bewtyfie it, as wee hauehave at this preſent, and conſequently the other vntil this preſent hore.

Theophilus.

Sainct Paul was the chiefeſt of the Apoſtles, and yet he came after Sainct Peter & Sainct Iames, but he did not teache or learne the Corinthians ſuche apiſh trickes, when hoe declared vntounto them how they ought to celebrate the Lordes ſupper, but doth proteſt, that hee will adde nothinge vntounto it nor diminiſhe anye thinge, but that hee will giuegive it them, in the ſame fourme as hée receyued it of his Maſter Ieſus Chriſte. I doe not boeléeue that Sainct Iames nor Sainct Peter hauehave done otherwiſe, nor all their compaigmons. And you canne no better confounde your ſelfe, they in excuſinge your ſelfe, as you doe. For at the leaſte wife, by that you doe confeſſe, you doe witneſſe, that you hauehave not the Maſſe, ſuche as yee hauehave, neither of Ieſus Chriſte nor of his Apoſtles, nor of the primitiue Churche, but that it is of ſo many diuers poeces, that one can not know the colour of the firſt cloth.

Hillarius.

Thou canſt no better compare it, then to a beggers cloake, to which eueryevery one hath ſet to a péece, which is ſo be garded and patched, that there is not one péece ſéene in that forme and faſhion as it was firſt made. But how can you tell who made it? It is not yet made nor ended. For you doe adde vntounto it dayly, and it ſhall not bée ended & perfected at the ende of the world, if other workmen then you doe not put to their handes. Yet neruertheles if thou haddeſt heard, Theophilus, a ſermon that a Curate made vntounto his Pariſhyoners, whiche is not very farre from this A ſermon of a Cura. c.place, peraduenture thou wouldeſt ſpeake otherwiſe.

Theophilus.

Hee muſt bring foorth better reaſons, for to make mee to chaunge my ſpeache, then anye coulde bring foorth yet.

Hillarius.

Thou mayſt ſay, that there was neuer a more ſubtiller queſtion alledged in Sorbonne: he exhorted his pariſhioners to offer and paye well their tithes. And the better to ſtirie them forward to doe the ſame, hee proponed vntounto them, the example of Abell and Caine, ſaying: A bell hearing Maſſe.Take yee heede you doe not as that curſed Caine did, who would not pay his tithes, nor go to Maſſe: but fellow the good example of Abell, who payd his tythes willingly, and alwayes of the beſt and fayreſt, and hee neuer ſayled to heare Maſſe eueryevery day. If it bee ſo, the Maſſe is more auncient then thou ſayeſt that it is.

Theophilus.

Peraduenture it is with the prieſts as it was with the Aegiptians, The antiquitie of y^• Aegiptians Eſa. 19. Plat. in Timo. Vad… …a epiſt. luſt. li 2.Isa 19who did glory ſomuch of their auntiquitie: and did affirme, that it was tenne thouſand yeares, that they had bene in the worlde. And when they ſayd it, it was not two thouſand yeres, that the world was created.

Hillarius.

It muſt needes be then, that they were before the creation of the world, at the leaſle fiue or ſix thouſand yeres. Peraduenture they were created Arcadins: whome The antiquitie of y^• Arch…diās Ou…d. Faſt. 1.the Poets doe write to hauehave bene horne before the Moone.

Euſebius.

That is not the firſt ſable that thou haſt forged, for to mocke and ieſt at the prieſts.

Hillarius.

I doe aſſure thee, without lying one word, that a Commiſſarie tolde it me, who ſayd vppon his faith, that he himſelfe hath hearde p. 185him, béeinge at the Maſſe, in which that Sermon was made at the Laudes tune in the midſt of the ſame, when the Prieſt was come to the Offertorie, and that ſame is not chaunced farre hence. For that partie played his part héere harde by, in the holy popiſh grounde, in which they doe yet ſinge Maſſe. And notwythſtandinge that that Commiſſary dwelleth in that holy grounde, yet neuertheleſſe he was eſtoniſhed of that Sermon, inſomuch, that as he tolde mée, hee went vntounto the Prieſt, and ſayde vntounto him: I cannot well vnderſtande that example which you hauehave alledged of Abel and of Caine. For at that time, there were but foure perſons in the worlde. Caine dyd neither ſing, nor heard y^• Maſſe. Sith thē that Abel heard it, hée could not ſinge and aunſwere, or els they ſhoulde hauehave bene lyke vntounto the Prieſt Martin. It muſt néedes hée then that Adam did ſinge it, and that Eue dyd holde Adam a Prieſt.the Torch, wherby it alſo ſhould follow, that the Prieſts then were maryed.

Theophilus.

His concluſion was not euyll. But I aſſure thée, that if the Prieſts could proue that the Maſſe The antiquitie and inſtitution of mariage.was as auncient as the mariage, and that God himſelfe hath as well commaunded and ordayned it at the beginning of the world, and in the terreſtriall Paradiſe, as Moſes witneſſeth that he hath done of mariage, bee aſſured, that they would make their potage fatte. And if they can in lyke manner ſhewe, that Ieſus Chriſt woulde bée as well founde at a newe Maſſe, as at the mariages.

Hillarius.

They would giuegive much vponupon that condition, and not without cauſe. For they dyd know very well that it woulde bee auaylable vntounto them one time in the yeare.

Theophilus.

It is very true. But their principal & chiefeſt profit cōmeth vntounto them, bicauſe of the dead. And therefore they would no longer permit & ſuffer, y^• it ſhould be lawful & common vntounto al, as wel lay people as clarks, to exerciſe the office, & to communicate y^• one for the other, but it is giuen vntounto thē alone, as y^• moſt worthieſt, iudgeing the other thereoff vnworthy. From thence are deſcended the priuate and perticuler maſſes, in which all they Priuate & perticuler Maſſes.alone do ſay that do communicate for the quick and the dead. It ſuffiſed them not, to take the office to communicate for the dead, which wer abſent, but which is more, would alſo make it in the name of y^• liuing, which are preſent, as though they reiected them, and iudged them excommunicate and vnworthy to communicate at the death & paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt. I demaunde of thée then Euſebius vppon this, where thou haſt euer reade, that the Chriſtians hauehave vſed a ſupper and ſacrament vicare, I Sacraments vi…carsdoe call the ſacrament end the ſupper vicare, which thou takeſt for an other alter the imitation of Tertulian, calling vicare baptiſme, the ſame of the Corinthians for the dead. Ter. aduer. Mars. li. 5, & li. de reſu. car.Canſt thou alledge vntounto me one onelye example taken from the true ſeruants of God. And that faſhion to celebrate the ſupper perticulerly, is it not a ryght excommunication, Excommunication for communion. The inſtitution of the ſupper. Mat. 26. c. 27 1. Cor. 11. c. 24. Marc. 14. c. …2 Luc. 22. b. 17Matt 261 Cor 11Mark 14Luke 22and not a communion? For hath our Lorde Ieſus Chriſt inſtituted his ſupper onelyonly for the Prieſts? Would he not that bread, which he diſtributed vntounto his Apoſtles, ſhould be diuided and diſtributed vntounto his Apoſtles, ſhould be deuided and diſtributed among them? And that all ſhould drinke of that cup and of that wine, which repreſenteth his bloud? Wherefore hath hee commaunded that; but for to giuegive vsus to vnderſtande, that as he gaue his body & his bloud for the health & ſaluation of all men, that he would in lyke manner, that al his elect ſhould be pertakers, & that all ſhould communicate wyth him, in y^• holy ſupper, & ſhould be fed & refreſhed with his fleſh and his bloud, thorow the vertue of his holy ſpirite? Euen as then Ieſus Chriſt was not onelyonly deliuered vntounto death for the Prieſts, but for all the faithfull, both generally and perticulerly, ſo he would not that there ſhould be but the Prieſtes which ſhould be pertakers, but all thoſe for whom and vntounto whom, he gaue it. For aſmuch then as he would not onelyonly by the holy predication of the goſpel, but alſo by the ſacramēts, & chiefly by the holy ſupper, féede & refreſh vsus with his fleſh & his bloud, & to make vsus féele the better the vertue & efficacie, & to confirme our p. 186faith & to comfort our conſciences: thou canſt not deny, but that the Prieſts do great wrong vntounto the Chriſtian people, to depriue them frō ſuch a …ood thing: For aſmuch alſo as they do not admit to their communion the people, they declare y^• they are of an other cōmunion & relygion then of his, & that they accompt them not for Chriſtians, but for Iewes, Turkes, & Infidels, whom we do reiect & excommunicate from the ſacraments, & from our communion, bicauſe y^• they are enemies of our religion. Is not that an act altogether repugnant vntounto y^• intention of Ieſus Chriſt, who would that his ſupper ſhould be common & generall to all his people? and thoſe héere do make it perticulerly, Furthermore, wherefore is it called a communion if it be not common vntounto all the Chriſtian people, as the name importeth and ſignifieth? of which alſo is taken the name of excommunication, by the which we doe ſignifie the ſeperation Communion & excommunicatign. Mat. 18. c. 17. 1. Cor. 5. d. 11. 2. Cor. 13. a. 1. 1. Tim. 1. d. 19.Matt 181 Cor 52 Cor 131 Tim 1and reiection of him, who thorow his euil deedes is driuen out from that holy communion, and cut off from the body of the Church, as a rotten member vnworthy to cōmunicate with hir to Ieſus Chriſt, who is y^• head, according to the ordinaunce that he hath made, and the practiſe of his Apoſtles.

Hillarius.

Theſe are the moſt ſubtilleſt hoſtes, that euer The moſt ſubtilleſt hoſtes in the world.the earth did beare. For they do lay the table cloth, in their Inne, before the people, afterwards, they do drinke vp the wine all alone, in their preſence, and do eate all without participatinge any parte to their compaignions, and doe licke their fingers the whiche they hauehave wet in the chalice, ſaying: Quia pius es, wyth ſuch an appetite that they do cauſe I deſire vntounto women with child. Wherefore I am not abaſhed of y^• which the Turke ſaid, after y^• he had ſeene The ſaying of the Turke touching the Popiſh Maſſethe Maſſe celebrated among y^• chriſtians: that he did think that at the ſacrifice of the Chriſtians, ther was but little charitie, ſith that there was one which did eate and drinke vppe all, wythout gyuinge parte vntounto others whiche ſtoode by. But what woulde hée hauehave ſayde, if hee had knowen that after that that good hoaſte hadde laide his cloth and put his ſoppe in the wine, and banketted all alone, hée cauſed them to pay the ſhot that hauehave taſted nothing at all of it, but did onelyonly beholde it a farre off, not daring to approch or come neere the table?

Euſebius.

You take all in the worſt part you can. Although that the Prieſt, which celebrateth the Maſſe, doth communicate all alone really and ſacramentallye, it followeth not therefore, but that all the aſſiſtentes do perticipate To communicate ſacramentally & ſpritually.by fayth and ſpiritually, as wel as the Prieſt which ſingeth the Maſſe. But that is done, for the dignitie and reuerence of the Sacrament. For if it were ſo common and frequented and vſed to all men, they woulde make none accompt of it. And although that the common people doe not communicate eueryevery day wyth the Prieſt, yet neuertheleſſe the lay people hauehave their dayes, for to communicate and celebrate the ſupper when they require it, and chiefly on the feaſtiuall and ſolempne dayes, in which they doe receiue the bodye of Ieſus Chriſt ſacramentally.

Theophilus.

If it doe profite as much him which doth not communicate really the Sacrament, as him which doth communicate ſo that he hauehave fayth, as well as the communicant, to what ende then ſerueth to goe to the ſupper? And wherefore hath Ieſus Chriſt ſayd: deuyde this bread among you, and drincke yée all of this cuppe? wee ſhall then néede no more if wee wyll not take the ſupper really: But that the father may ſend his ſonne: the huſbande hys wyfe: the maſter his ſeruaunt, which may communicate for them, and they wythout mouing or wagginge themſelues, ſhall communicate ſpyrytuallye by fayth, ſo that the intention and deuotion bée ſuch in them. I am not ignoraunt but that the true communication is ſpirituall and thorowe fayth, wythout which the outwarde bringeth more domage then lproſite. But doſte thou thincke that Ieſus Chriſt hath inſtituted the ſigne and the extericure Cermonye of he Sacrament wyll, out cauſe? and that he… woulde p. 187not but that wee our ſelues ſhoulde communicate, excepte wée hauehave ſome lawfull let, which draweth vsus backe, as ſickeneſſe, impriſonment, faulte of minſtringe it, or other like doubt, which procéedeth not of our fault, of infidelitie or diſpiſinge it? Truelye I wyll not denie but that in ſuch a caſe, thoſe which cannot bée preſent at the ſuppen, ſhould hauehave iuſt excuſe, and that they doe communicate ſpiritually with Ieſus Chriſt. But I demaund of thée. Euſebius, if thou wouldeſt bée content, that an other ſhoulde dine for thée… and if in faſting thou ſhalt be refreſhed with the meate that an other ſhal hauehave eaten?

Thomas.

As for my ſelfe I wil…not agrée vntounto it. For that is no place in which he muſt hauehave a lieuetenant and vicare. I bad rather hauehave him in all other thinges then A vicare at the table.in the table.

Theophilus.

If you would not in coryorall thinges, wherefore will you accept it in ſpirituall thinges & can I The vicare of ſayth.liue of your ſoule, or you o… mine?

Thomas.

No.

Theophilus.

Nowe for aſmuch as the fayth is the life of the ſoule, it muſt be that eueryevery one doe lyue of his owne, and wée muſt not ſay I beléeue: as my maybe beléeueth. But it muſt bée that I my ſelfe doe beléeue, and that I Abac. 2. a. 4 Rom 1. b. 1… Gala. 3. b. 11Hab 2Rom 1Gal 3doe knowe and vnderſtande that which I beleeue. Furthermore, ſith that the woorde of God, the preachinge of the Goſpell, the adminiſtration of the sacramentes are meanes by which God nouriſheth, keepeth, augement…th, and confirmeth the fatith in vsus, as the lyfe, the body, by the meanes of bread, and other meates, wée ought to vnderſtande, that as there is no man that can take foode and nouriſhment for mée, if I my ſelfe doe not take it, ſo cannot hée heare the Goſpell, nor receyue the Sacraments, for mee: But it is neceſſary that I doe them my ſelfe in proper perſon. If I wyll hauehave the profite, yea, thoughe I were an Emperour. Nowe if tho liuinge cannot doe it for the liuing, what can they doe for the dead? In lyke The ſupper for the common people.manner, as touchinge the generall ſupper which is made amonge all the people, howe doe the Prieſtes handle yorſ? It was not inoughe for them to hauehave vſurped the Sacrament for them alone, a great tyme, but that they muſt yet defrande you of the moytie, the ſame daies that The moytie of the ſupper taken avvay from the peopleyou would communicate. For they doe not gyue you to drinke of that ſame wine the which they doe drinke, but hauehave eſtablyſhed and concluded, by theire counſells that it ſufficeth the laye people to communicate vnderunder one kinde onelyonly, that is to ſaye, of the bread: and that there ſhould bée none but they, whiche ſhoulde communicate vnderunder both kindes of the bread and wine. And the ſame The Councel of Conſtance & of Baſile.was determined in the counſell of Conſtance, holden in the yeare 1415. the xb, daye of Iune, in the 13. Seſſions agaynſt the authoritie not onelye of the worde of God, but of all the aucinet Doctors, and alſo of their decrées and Canons. Wherefore it is eaſely to iudge of what ſpirite thoſe were lead that were ther aſſiſting, and which hauehave made ſuch determination, & hauehave iudged Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prague to bee burned, who vphelde the doctrine of the auncient Church. At the leaſt they could not deuye but that they were conſtrayned to condempne eyther that counſell, or the ſame of Baſle, whiche afterwardes ordayned that it was permitted to the Bobemians to communciate vnderunder doth kindes: the which was obteined by great diſputation, as the Chronicles doe witneſſe and the Epiſtles written of that matter. But there is no doubte, but that the ſame of Baſle is therein more agreeing to the auncient doctrine. It is meruayle that they doe forbid the cup vntounto the laye people, and theire owne canons in ſome places do iudge thoſe for ſacriledgers & excommunicate, which do take it but in one kinde, & doe not take y^• cup, as it it is eaſely to ſee, de coſi diſt. 2. in many Canone.

Thomas.

But there is great difference betwéene that that you drinke & theris, For they thinke y^• theirs is no more wine, but that it is changed into y^• bloud of Ieſus Chriſt, Tranſubſtantiition.thorow the vertue of their conſecration. But they do accompt p. 188and take yours, but for wine, bicauſe that it was conſecrated.

Hillarius.

They giuegive it you but for to rinſe & waſh the téeth: if peraduēture there do ſtick any of the fleſh which they hauehave giuen you to eate. For according to the witneſſe which Humbert Cardinall, a Rorguignon hath rehearſed in the honorable recantatiō that he made The honourable recantation of Berengarius De con. diſt. 2 Lgo Berengarius.for Berengarius, conteyning the fayth of Pope Nicholas, the which they hauehave cauſed him to rehearſe and recite, wée muſt beleeue, that the body of Ieſus Chriſt, is there taken with the mouth of the faythfull, and chewed & bruſed with the téeth. It is moſte certeine, that their wine is no more bloud, then yours. But yer ſeeing the opinion that they hauehave, and that they doe eſtéeme it more precious, they doe you iniurye, to depriue you of it.

Theophilus.

I doe meruaile? how they dare depriue the people from the cup, more then from the bread, ſith that Ieſus Chriſt hath ſayd expreſly, take yee, and drinke ye al. But ther is no doubt, y^• the priuate & perticuler Mat 26. c. 27. Marc. 14. c. 22. Luc. 22. b. 19Matt 26Mark 14Luke 22maſſes, hauehave ingendred this error. For euen as y^e Prieſts hauehave vſurpled the office to celebrate y^• ſupper for others, to make their dignitie to be of more value, ſo they would make theirs to differ frō y^• ſame of others, & to take y^• both kinds for themſelues, & leaue onelyonly but one vntounto y^• pleople, to y^• end they do eſtme, y^• the maſſe & ſupper, which y^e prieſt celebrateth, were more worthy & of more greater merite, then y^• other faithful, & that it bringeth vntounto thē more gaine. For after that the people were perſwaded in y^• opinion, eueryevery one did ſet thē aworke, as workmen hired by daies for to ſing, both for the quick & for the dead: whereof they receiued great gaine, of which we do yet at this day ſee y^• great riches & treaſures of y^e Monks of y^e order of S. Bener, & of Cluny, who by y^• other mōkiſh orders hauehave followed The Conuent of Monkes.which hauehave ben hatched, engibred & brought vp of that came hen. Now whē they did perceiue y^• their gaine wared very great, they hauehave alwayes better magnified their …oorke, and went v…to it wyth ſuch a feruent yeale and affection, that there was a Prieſt which woulde ſinge three or foure Maſſes in one daye, ſo that they woulde giuegive him money: i… ſuch ſort that there was in no Fayre whatſoeuer it were & any merchaundiſe more frequented and vſed then this heers in their ſhoppe. Wherefore Multitude of Maſſes for hidde De con diſt. 1. ca. ſufficit.the Popes were conſtrayned to forbidde, that no Prieſt ſhoulde ſinge any more then one Maſſe in one daye, wythout diſpenſation, except in the ſenſ… of Chriſtmas: And they attributed that ordinaunce vntounto Pope Alexander, who inuented the holy water? It was in lyke manner decréede that none ſhoulde take vponupon hym to celebrate, but that there ſhoulde bée at the leaſt two What company ought to hauehave the Maſſe De con. diſt. 1. ca. Hoc. quo quefor to heare it. And they doe adde the reaſon, ſayinge: If there bee not two at the leaſt, howe can the Prieſt ſaye, Dominus vobiſeum: The Lord bée with you? O rate pro me fratres: Bretheren pray for me?

Hillarius.

They muſt ſaye: Dominus tecum: as the Angell Gabriel did.

Theophilus.

Doe yée not beholde a goodly Philoſophy? Although that I doe thinke, that they hauehave alſo regarde, that the maſſe ought to keepe and holde ſome ſhew of the communion, the which could not hauehave any greate ſhewe or coulour, excepte there bée two or thrée at the leaſt with the Prieſt. For that cauſe I thinke, that they hauehave in like manner taken the cuſtome, to breake their heaſt in thrée péeces, bicauſe that it is written, that Ieſus Chriſt did breake the bread, and gaue it vntounto his Diſciples. Then for to repreſent in their perticuler ſupper, that Mat. 16. c. 27 Marc 14. c. …2 Luc. 22. b. 19 The breaking of the hoaſt.Matt 16Mark 14Luke 22fraction & diſtribution of the bread: which cannot be done vntounto one alone, they do yet kepe y^• faſhion to break it after the example of Ieſus Chriſt. But bicauſe that they alone do eate it vp all without diſtributing it vntounto others, yet they would neuertheleſſe counterfaite the example of Ieſus Chriſt, giuing to vnderſtand that they doe take the partes whiche they doe make, in ſteede of them, in whoſe name they are made, & for whoſe intent they ſing them. p. 189And the Maſter of the ſentences and alſo Gratian, doe De con. diſt 2. ca. …riform Sergius. 2. O… porci. Plat.make the author of that law and ordinaunce Sergius. 2. Who before y^• he was pope, was called: hoggs ſnowt. But bicauſe that that name ſéemed to him vile, hee cauſed it to bee chaunged into this ſame: ſithens whiche, the cuſtome continued among the Popes, that when they are choſen into that office, they doe chaunge all their names. All that The names of the Popes changed.was done about y^• yere of our Lord. 742. after the death of Charlemaine. The Doctors which came afterwardes doe tell the reaſon, wherefore that diuiſion of the hoaſt is deuided in thrée parts: And ſay, that that whiche is put and Bonauent. li. 4. diſt. 12. Hilbert, in eleg de Eucha…iſtiu.caſt into the Chalice, and made wette in Wine, is offred for the healthe and ſaluation of the liuing. The other two dry parts are for the dead, the one for the prayſe of thoſe which are now in Paradiſe. The other for thoſe whiche are in the paines of Purgatory, for to deliuer them. Although that, there are others whiche doe attribute the wetting in the Wine, vntounto the bleſſed, whiche are now in Paradiſe. But I am now abaſhed of thoſe whiche hauehave founde out that manner to wette and moyſten the bread with the wine, that they hauehave no regarde to their Canons which do rebuke & condempne very ſharpely ſome whiche had that euil cuſtome to wette the bread with the wine, and chiefely ſome Aegiptian Churchés. But they hauehave made it no conſeyence to doe that whiche their aunceſtors hauehave forbidden and condempned to others. For all thinge is permitted vntounto them. Although that the Prieſt doeth make the ſupper all alone for all the Saynts & Sayntes in Paradiſe, and for all the quicke and the de…d. And for that cauſe was put into the ſupper, the Memento of the The memento of the quicke & of the deaddead, in the Canon of the Maſſe, with that of the lyuing, the which yet neuertheleſſe one cannot finde in the auncient Miſſels of the Romiſh Maſſe, written by hand: Wherfore it is moſte li…ſt, that it hath bene at ded ſoo af…rwardes, by thoſe whiche hauehave applyed the merit of the Maſſe vntounto th… dead. But they hauehave done yet worſe, for where the ſupper ought to bee a Comaieinoration of the …cath and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt, and a ſacrifice of praiſe, …or to receyue Ieſus Chriſt, not for to offer him vp, ther The ſ…pper a … of re…tion.hauehave made a ſacrifice of reconciliation, for to offer vp Ieſus Chriſt vntounto God his father, for the redemption and ſaluation of the ſoules, aſwell of the deade as of the lyuing, which counteruayleth aſmuch in reſolution as ſo deny altogether the Sacrifice of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt. For aſmuch then as y^• ſupper, which ought to be common vntounto all the faithfull, was conuerted & chaunged into perticuler Maſſes, & that ſo manye falſe opinion hauehave bene adioyned vntounto it, the better to elcuate his authoritie and dignitie and the Prieſts which ſing it, the vſe of the true ſupper of Ieſus Chriſte hath bene almoſt altogether aboliſhed, and is ſo greatly diſpiſed, that almoſt none maketh any accompt of it. For euen as the Prieſtes The diſpiſing & contemning of the ſupper.did runne after their Maſſes, bicauſe of the gaine, the people on the otherſide, did follow them bicauſe of the opinion that they had of their dignitie. And did make no great accompt of the commen ſupper, but they referred themſelues altogether vntounto the Maſſes of y^• prieſts, inſomuch that there were but a few, to whom they did eſteeme to communicate: But did giuegive the charge vntounto the Prieſts King Levves.to do that for them. Wherefore King Lewes the ſonne of Charles, ſeeing the people to communicate ſo rare & ſeldome in compariſon to the auncient Church, was compelled to make Lawes and Statutes, that the laye people, ſhould at the leaſt, communicate at the ſupper three times Statutes for the communion.in the yere: The which law Anſegiſus hath put in wryting, and it was done in the yeare of our Lord …yght hundroth Auſegiſus. li. 2. Ca 38 Fabtan. De con. diſt. 2. & h…. Concilium Aga th…ſe & …lib…t. De cen. diſt. 2. ….and fifteene. The which neuertheleſſe hath not bene yet obſerued, bicauſe of the great eſtimacion that they had of the perticuler maſſes. For notwithſtanding that Pope Fabian and the Councell Agathian and Ehbertin, had decreed that y^• lay people which receiu…d not the Euchatiſte? at the leaſt, at Eaſter, Whitſoutide & Chriſtmes ſhoulde not be compted for catholickes, yet neuertheleſſe the ſupper is ſo greatly diſpiſed that the lay p…ople muſte be compelled p. 190and conſtrayned by commaundings from the Emperour, Concil. Lateraat the Councell of Lateran, to communicate at the leaſt once in y^e yere at Eaſter, for to keepe the olde cuſtome of the auncient Churche, which then was very much corrupted, as one may in like manner iudge by the generall Councell of Pope Innocentius, and by the Canon of The councell of Pope Innocent.Clement the third, whiche was made about a thouſande two hundreth yeres after the natiuitie of Ieſus Chriſt: De pen. & remiſſ. omnis v… … Albert. li. de miſſae myſt.Although that Albert alledgeth other reaſons, but thoſe hauehave bene the cauſes. Behold how the Chriſtians hauehave bene led, and into what pit and depthe the Commemoration of the quicke and of the dead in the ſupper, hath drawen them. There remained none but the Greekes, which The conſlareie of the Greekes.hauehave kept it well, and which hauehave kept néereſt and moſte conſtantly by y^• auncient cuſtome of the Apoſtles. For yet at this day they doe not allow the perticuler Maſſe, and they take not y^• Euchariſte but with company, & that the miniſter doth diſtribute it to the people. And this is very cléere and plaine vntounto the Churches, which they hauehave agreat nomber of thē, vnderunder the ſeigniory of the Venitians. Alſo they coulde not ſuffer that one ſhoulde depriue them of the Cuppe or Chalice, the whiche is one of the partes of the Sacrament, but doe kéepe ſtill that communion, as it was vnderunder both kindes, from the time of the Apoſtles themſelues in the Latin Churches, in Africa and Europa, untill the time of Fredericke the firſt. Euen ſo hauehave they done in the article of Purgatory, Purgatory reteſted of the Greekesthe whiche they woulde neuer agrée vntounto, although that it was receiued and allowed by the church of Rome.

Euſebius.

But although they hauehave reſiſted it of long time, were they not in the ende conſtrayned to allow and acknowledge it, and to ab…ure their error and hereſie, at the councell of Florence, conſenting with the Romiſh The Counſell of Florence.Churche?

Theophilus.

Thou haſt ſayd very well, conſtrayned. For that Romiſh tyraunt neuer ceaſeth vntyll hee hath ſeduced and brought ſubiecte vntounto him all other Churches, either thorow crafte and ſubtiltye, or els by force & violence. Yet neuertheleſſe, before that the Greekes conſented vntounto him, how long time hauehave they reſiſted? And afterwards, what are thoſe that hauehave conſented and after what ſort? whether that the Purgatory ſuch as they hauehave preached vntounto us vntill this preſent time, was founded and binlved vponupon the holy ſcriptures, and worthy to bee holden and taken for an article of the faith, as they hauehave conſtrayned vsus, it followeth that all the Greekes and all their Churches ſhould hauehave bene heretickes vntill the yeare of our Lorde a thouſand foure hundreth thirty and nine, that y^e Councel was holden. But how and by whom was it celebrated? were there not then Sciſines & Antipopes in the Church? For ſome of them did draw & gather Sciſmes & Antipopes. Plat. in vita. Eng. li. concil. The Counſell of Buſle. Pope Martin. Sigismond Emperour.themſelues towards Almaigne and aſſembled themſelues at Baſle at the Councel begun by Pope Martin, the predeceſſor to Eugenius, at which was the Emperour Sigiſmond with the Princes of Spaine, Almaigne, Pannonia and Fraunce. Others aſſembled and gathered themſelues together and went to the Councell of Ferrara, which afterwards was tranſported to Florence, bicauſe of the plague The Counſell of Ferrora. Plague. Pope Engeniuswhich was ſo cruell and terrible at Ferrara, that all were very much afrayd, chiefely the Greekes, which trembled with feare. Wherfore Pope Engenius, who ruled at that Councell was conſtrained to tranſport and remoue it to an other place, and to ende it at Florence. Yet neuertheles, foraſmuch as the Greekes were ſo long time holden and kept in the doctrine of the auncient Church, they ſhoulde not hauehave loſt much, to hauehave perſeuered and continued ſtil in it. And if they had well marked their caſe, God gaue them warning ynough and aduertiſements that hee tooke no great pleaſure in that that they did take in hand, ſith that hée aſſayled them with that great horrible plague. On the otherſide, they might well iudge how well they coulde agree with the komiſh Churche, the whiche was deuided within it ſelfe, and at diſcorde in the houſe. For Pope Eugenius held his Councel at Ferrara & at Florence, p. 191and would not be aſſiſtant to that at Baſle, in whiche the Emperour was preſent. On the cōtrary, thoſe which were aſſembled at the Councel of Baſle, would not acknowledge Eugenius for to be Pope, but did chooſe an other, to witte, Ayme Duke of Sauoy, who as then led an Hermits life A yme Duke of Sanoy. Ripaillesat Ripailles, but after an other ſorte then the auncient Hermits in times paſt. For his Hermitage was a goodly and pleaſaunt Caſtle, in a moſte pleaſaunt place, harde by Thonon, as it appeareth yet at this day. After his election Pope Felix.be was called Felix, were not all theſe things proper and fit for to giuegive a faire ſhew vntounto thoſe Councels? And Purgotory receyned by the Greekes.that ſame of Florence in which the concluſion and agreement of Purgatorye, was made with the Greekes, ought it not greatly to bee eſteemed, for to hauehave an Eugenius for their Preſident which hath moued all Italy and al Chriſtendome to war? And how ſhall the Greekes that were ſent be acquited and diſcharged of their office?

Hillarius.

They hauehave betrayed both their countreis & their Churches, as they hauehave well declared by the dignities and offices which they hauehave receiued of the Pope.

Theophilus.

Therefore hath hée ſo well recompenſed them. For he hath made Rutenus and Nicenus Cardmals Rutenus. Nicenuswhich were the chiefe: with Beſſarion who was alſo a Cardinall and Patriarke of Conſtantinoble. If they had faithfully defended the trueth, the Pope woulde not hauehave Beiſationchoſen them vntounto ſuch honors.

Hillarius.

Hee might as wel make thē Cardinals in ſuch Roſſenſisſorte, as Roſſenſis was in England: or after the ſort as the Tyrants hauehave giuen the red hatte vntounto the Martirs.

Theophilus.

Although that he hath done that, the better to keepe by that meanes the Greekes ſubiect and bounce vntounto him and to his dectrine, yet neuertheles he hath not yet ſo well practiſed it nor bounde them, but that they were by and by reuolted and truned vntounto their firſt manners, and that they had abandoned & forſaken the Popiſh faith, the whiche before they were ignorant off.

Hillarius.

Yet they ſhould not hauehave loſt muche, if they had neuer learned any thing at all. But I am not muche abaſhed though Beſſarion hath eaſelye conſented vntounto the papiſticall Purgatory. For hee was a great Platoniſt, and I beeleeue that hee was more exerciſed in the Philoſophy of Plato, then in the true Theology of heauē ly letter. Where…ore it is no meruaile, if hee hauehave eaſely allowed Purgatory, the which he hath already learned of his maſter Plato.

Theophilus.

Thou mayſt now vnderſtand Euſebius how the Churche is fallen from degree to degree, ſithens the time of the Apoſtles, vntil the ſame of l…ertulian, afterwards of Cyprian, afterwards of Auguſtin and from him vntounto Gregory, and conſequently vntounto our time: and how the ſuperſtition is ſo increaſed and augmented, that by the meanes of the Purgatory and of the Maſſe the merite of the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt was altogether aboliſhed. You muſt not then compare the time preſent & the eſtate of your Churches, vntounto the ſame of S. Auguſtin. For there is to much difference betweene them. It is … euill lykelyhood, that the thing in thoſe dayes was ſomuch aduaunced. And doubt not, that if y^• holy man had thought, that it would hauehave fallen out ſo, but that he would hauehave reſiſted it more ſtrongly then wee doe at this day. For hee could not hauehave ſuffred, that the grace of Ieſus Chriſt, of which he was ſo greate a defender againſt the Pelagians, ſhould hauehave bene ſo altogether deſtroyed. But the good man was ouercome, bicauſe that then, the puritie of the doctrine of y^e goſpel & the eſtate of the church was already very much decayed & corrupted, as we may eaſely iudge, by that whiche Sainct Hierome witneſſeth of the life of Malchus. For he was not aſhamed to write that the time The VVitneſſe VVhichWhich Saint H…ereme ytueth cllus time.and age in which hee liued, and Sainct Auguſtin in lyhe manner, who was of the ſame time, was but filthyneſſe & ſtinking in compariſon of the ſame of y^e Apoſtles. Thou haſt alreadie heard the plaint y^e Sainct Auguſtin made of mans traditions, with which the Church was ouercharged. … lanua 1. 9.Amongſt which he touched the Iewiſhnes and ſuperſtion p. 192whiche was yet kept in Africa. We muſt not then be abaſhed, if in thoſe dayes, there came vp new opinions, touching the eſtate of the dead, the whiche the auncient Churche was ignorant off. Wee muſt not in like manner meruaile although ſome greate learned men hauehave bene wrapt in them. For it happeneth commonlye, that when men hauehave dreamed and inuented ſome new opinion, they will alſo induce others, and are angry againſt thoſe that doe reſiſt them, inſomuch that they will condempne them, and if they bee the moſte wiſeſt and of greateſt countenaunce, they cary away the matter. After that ſorte was Aerius condempned, chifely bicauſe he ſaide, that it was Aertus.not néedeful to pray nor to offer for the dead. It happened to him as it did to Vigilantius, Againſt whome Sainct Hierom againſt Vigtlantius.Hierome hath writen ſo outragiouſly, bicauſe that hee allowed not, but rebuked the watchings whiche they made about the Sepulcres of the Martyrs, bicauſe that he knew already the ſuperſtition which would follow. S. Hierome was a great learned man, but yet neuertheleſſe a childe might iudge that hée did great wrong vntounto Vigilantius, and that hée ſhewed himſelfe to bee too much a man, and more ſuperſtitious then hee ought to bée For at this preſent, y^e time declared vntounto vsus, that the reaſon of Vigilantius was a great deale better then that of Hierome: & the abuſes and Idolatries whiche hauehave followed that cuſtome that Hierome hath mainteined, doe mamſeſtlye declare, that then Antechriſte aduaunced the ſecret of iniquitye, to whome Hierome obeyed, without takinge anye heede. Nowe lette vsus thinke, that ſoraſmuche as ſuche a manue as hée was, dyd defende ſo ſharpelye mans tradytions and childithe ſuperſhtious, what authorytye canne the little ones hauehave, whiche doe put themſelues againſte it or withſtande The opinion that Styne Auguſt in had of Pingarory.it? and what ſhall the pore people doe? Then when Sainct Auguſtin did beginne to write, hee did then finde owers opinions of the ſuff…nges and prayers for the dead, among thoſe of the Church or the Doctors of the Church, and the queſtion of Purgatory ſtirred vp and moued, the which hee alſo hath ſifted and fanned. He then perceiuing the opinions and reaſons of others, which were not without appearance of wiſedome and holines (whiche are the titles which the Apoſtle attributeh vntounto mans trabitions) Collo. 2. 3. 3.was ſomwhat troubled and moued, and burſt not altogether condempne them. That was the cauſe wherefore he ſpake of that matter after diuers ſortes & doubtfully, and that he ſeemeth ſome time to ſpeake againſt himſelfe. When hee had no regarde but to the pure worde of God, hee hath well ſpoken, as I will make it by and by appeare. But when hee had regard vntounto the opinions and reaſons of others and grounded himſelf vponupon mans Phyloſophy, more then vppon the certeine worde of God, hee founde himſelfe ſometime in great perplerity and doubt, and hath followed ſometime more his humaine reaſon, then the verity of God reuealed vntounto him. For when all ſhall be well conſidered, where in differeth that difference that hee putteth betweene the eſtates of the dead from the Li. deſ… & oper. ca. 16. Addul…. q. 1 in Enchir. ca 68. 69 De ciui. deili. 21. ca. 26.doctrine of Plato? Furthermore, do wee not ſee, that when he ſpeaketh of the fire of Purgatory, for the other life, that he ſpeaketh alwayes as bucerteine, and as of an opinion probable and like to bee true, the which he dareth not certeinly allow nor diſalow: But ſaith that one may diſpute of that queſtion and alwayes leaue it in ſuſpenſe. Nowe who would thinke it like be true, that that holy man, beeing a great keper & an obſeruer of the eccleſiaſtical & catholicke doctrine, would hauehave ſo ſpoken and written of that matter, if in his time that doctrine of Purgatorye, had bene receiued and allowed of the Churche for certeine and ſure, in that ſorte that thoſe whiche at this Tho. in 4. diſt. 21. Autho. 1. Par. …. 10. Cap 2.preſent doe receiue ſo great gaine woulde condcmpne as Her…tickes not onelyonly thoſe that doe ſay the contrary, but alſo all thoſe whiche beleeue it not to be an article of faith neceſſary vntounto ſaluation. How could hee call into doubt an article of faith authoriſed and confirmed by the Churche? p. 193nowe wee cannot denye, but that the doctrine of our faith is alwayes one, eternall, and like vntounto it ſelfe, and The doctrine of the Apoſtles perfect.that the Apoſtles hauehave ſo taught and inſtructed the Churches, that they hauehave not hyd from them any thinge neceſſary vntounto their ſaluation, which ought not afterwardes to bee reuealed, and chiefely that which toucheth the offices of louelove and charitie, without which we are nothing towardes God. There is yet an other point, that is, that Ra…. diui. off. li. 7. 3. q. 7. in grauib. 24. q. 1. od…. 1. de ponderet extra de renun Niſi. 5. 1.he himſelfe is not of the opinion, that the prayers and ofteringes of the wicked, may bee agreeable to God. To the which opinion the papiſticall Doctors dare verye well ſpeake agaynſt, and affirme that it ought not to be holden, but that it is too harde and rigorous (notwithſtanding y^e hee alloweth it by the holy Scriptures) bicauſe that it depriueth the deade from mercye and from ſo manye goodly prayers and ſuffrages, and woulde cauſe the charytie of thoſe that bee aliue to ware colde towardes them.

Hillarius.

I am not abaſhed. For they ſhoulde loſe much, if none ſhoulde offer vntounto them but good men? It is vntounto them, to whome y^e ſentence is to hard, not vntounto the dead.

Theophilus.

If they bee ſo bolde to reproue the ſentence of the auncient Doctors, when it is not fit for their purpoſe, although that it bee confirmable vntounto the Scripture, wherefore may not wee reiect it, when it ſhall be contrary vntounto it? As touchinge that which thou haſt in lyke manner declared, of his mother Monica, requyring Monica.that they ſhould make remembraunce of hir, in the celebration of the Sacrament, it maketh no greate matter. That was the affection of a woman, as that which ſhee had to bee buryed hard by hir huſbande. For there is no doubt, that the affe…ion that wee hauehave towardes Li. confeſſ. 9 c…. 11.the dead, maketh that wee alſo deſire, that others ſhould hauehave the lyke affection towardes vsus. …nd wee muſt not bee …baſhed, if ſuch humame affections, doe reigne ſometimes in vsus. For wee our ſelues doe ſee, that thoſe holy The affection of the women that follovved Ieſuswoemen, which followed Ieſus Chriſte, from Galile, vntill he was buryed, willinge to anointe him in his ſepulchre, dyd not thinke of his reſurrection, but did thinke to hauehave founde him dead: as the Angells rebuked them, Luc. 24. a. 5. Mat. 18. 2. 1. Marc. 16. b. 6. Iolus. 10. … 11.Luke 24Matt 18:2Matt 18:1Mark 16ſaying: why ſeeke yee the liuinge amonge the dead?

There is no doubte, but that there was yet in them humayne affection towardes the bodye of Ieſus Chriſte, as wee hauehave towardes the dead: But to the ende that wee maye hauehave no more neede to diſpute muche of it, wylt thou bee contented if I doe alledge vntounto thee Auguſtine, agaynſte Auguſtine? To whome haddeſt thou rather ſtaye, eyther vppon Saincte Auguſtine, followinge the opinion of men wythout the Scripture, and ſpeakinge doubtfullye as vncerteyne, or vntounto hym and other auncient Doctours, wyth the holy Scripture.

Euſebius.

I doe not thincke, that Sainct Auguſtine would ſpeake againſt himſelfe, nor y^e he hath bene contrary vntounto the holy Scripture, nor to the auncient Doctors.

Theophilus.

Thou canſt not ſhewe vntounto mee that hee hath affirmed the Purgatorye certeynlye: But I will declare vntounto thee places by the whiche hee hath altogether abolyſhed it. Marke howe hee hath put none other Purgatorye, then the bloude of Ieſus Chriſte, hee The vvitnes of Saint Auguſture againſt purgatory of the Pope. De ciui. det. li. 10 …. 1. 24. The true Pargatory. De c…. Dei. li 10. ca. 22.ſayth, ſpeakinge of Porphyras a Platoniſt, that hee hath not knowen Ieſus Chriſte to bee the begynninge, thorowe whoſe incarnation wee are purged. For hee ſhoulde hauehave then acknowledged a Purgatorye. And in an other place, hee ſayth: Wee hauehave then the bictorye, in his name which hath taken mannes fleſhe, and hath liued without ſinne, to the ende that by hym beei…ge the Prieſt and the ſacrifice, we are made the remyſſion of ſinnes. That is to ſaye, thorowe the medyatour of God and men, the man Ieſus Chriſte, who in hys owne perſon hath purged our ſinnes, and reſtored be agayne vntounto God. For men are not ſeperated from God, 1. Timo. 2. …. 5. lieb. 1. 2. 3.but thorowe ſinne, for which it lyeth not in vsus thorowe our owne power and ſtrength to purge them in this lyfe, but therow the mercy God, thorow his clemeney, not p. 194thorowe our power. For that vertue whiche is called ours, whatſoeuer it bee, it is graunted vntounto vsus thorowe his goodneſſe. Doth hee not cleerelye ſhewe, that the purgation of ſinnes is done in this lyfe, and yet not thorowe our owne righteouſneſſe nor vertue? Holve can it then bee done in the other lyfe, thorowe the vertue and merytes of an other & Furthermore, hee manyfeſtly ſayth: the ſoules of the good men after they are De eiui. Dei. li. 13. ca. 9ſeperated from the body, are at reſt, and wee muſte not doubt of it: but thoſe of the wicked, are puniſhed vntyll ſuch time, as the bodyes of thoſe doe ryſe againe to eternall lyfe: and of theſe heere, to eternall death, whiche is called the ſeconde death. But is it poſſible to ſpeake more cleerelye and purely of Ieſus Chriſte and of the Purgatorye that wee hauehave in him, then when hee ſayth: De trinita. li. 4 ca. 13.Thorowe his death, that is to ſaye, by one onelye and true ſacrifice, which hath bene offered for vsus, hee hath purged, abolythed and put out all that that had anye ſaultes in vsus. Wherefore the hygher power and thoſe of authoritie doe bolde and keepe vsus for to bee punyſhed: And by his reſurrection hath called vntounto a newe lyfe wee which were predeſtyned: hee hath iuſtified thoſe that hee called, and glorified the iuſtified. Beholde woords very cleere. And ſpeaking of the opinion of Plato, he ſayth: Thoſe which are of that opinion, doe thincke that after De ciuis. Dei. li 21. ca. 13that one is deud, there is no other paines, then of Purgatorye, for to purge ſinnes: Alyttlo after hee ſayth: Wee confeſſe that in this mortall life, there is a certeyne Purgatory paine. It ſeemeth that hee ſomewhat agreeth that the tribulations and aduerſities that man ſuffereth Purgatory in this worlde.in this world, do ſerue him for a purgation of his ſinnes: the which yet neuertheleſſe, they dare not to attribute but to Ieſus Chriſt. Although that we doe commonly ſay, of him which hath had much euil & griefe in this world, y^e he hath had heere his Purgatory. For that taſteth muche of the opinion of Plato. But Sainct Auguſtin doth not make ther mētiō, of any paine… of purgatoy, after this life, but he ſayth playnely that the ſoules of the faythfull, do Enchi. …. 67.reſt after the deathe of the bodye. But what wilt thou more cléerer, then when hée ſayeth: Some doe beleeue that thoſe alſo whiche hauehave not abandoned the name of Chriſt, and which hauehave bene baptized in hys Church, and hauehave not belie cutte off from the ſame, thorow anye ſchiſme or hereſie, that in whatſoeuer ſinnes they hauehave lyued in, the which they ſhall not deface and put away thorowe penaunce, nor redeemed thorow doing of almes beedes, but ſhall perſeuer and continue in them continually, vntill the laſt daye of their lyfe, ſhall be ſaued thorow the fire: Although that according to the greatneſſe of theire ſinnes and miſdéedes, that fire ſhall bée The fire dinturnall & eternall.diuturnall but not eternall. But mée thincketh that thoſe that doe beléeue this, and yet neuertheleſſe are catholikes, are deceyued thorowe mans beneuolence. For Contra Pelag Hypogu. li. 5the holy Scripture, if one doe looke and ſearch in it, aunſwereth an other thing. Thou ſeeſt héere Euſebius, that be ſpeaketh of the fire of Purgatory, whatſoeuer thinge he hath ſpoken at other time. And ſayth moreouer, that there is but two wayes, to wit, one of dampnation and Two vvayes onelyonlyan other of ſaluation. But marke well his owne words: The fayth of the catholikes, thorowe the diuine authoritie, doth firſt beleeue that there is a kingdome of heauen. Secondly, that there is a hell, in the which euerye apoſtate and ſtraunger to the fayth of Chriſte is punyſhed. Wee are altogether ignoraunt of the thirde. But wée doe not finde in the holy Scriptures, that there is any. It ſeemeth to mee, that hée ſpeaketh very cléerely, and that thoſe authorities ought to ſuffice. thee, againſt all that that thou canſt alledge of the auncient Doctors, in the fauour of Purgatory. Yet neuertheleſſe the better Other vvitneſſes of the moſt. auncion doctors agaynſt Purgatory Ter aduer. Marl. li. 4. The ſieldes Eh…eus.to vanquiſh and pull thée down. I wil yet ſhew foorth vntounto thee ſome ſentences of the moſt auncient Doctoures. Marke what Tertulian ſayth. It ſeemeth vntounto eueryevery one that is wiſe, which hauehave heard ſomtime ſpoken of y^e fields Ehſeus, that it hath ſome locall determination which hath p. 195bene called Abrahams boſome, for to receyue the ſoules Abrahams boſome.of his children, and that the ſame region or countrey is not celeſtiall, but it is yet neuer the leſſe more higher then hell, in which the ſoules of the righteous doe reſt, vntyll ſuch time as the conſumation of the thinges, reſtoreth the reſurrection of all men, thorowe perfect rewarde. I doe not prayſe that which Tertulian hath determyned of the place, wythout witneſſe of the Scripture, but I To affirme vncerteyne thingsthincke it a very daungerous thinge to define of ſuche thinges wythout wytneſſe of the ſame, and I had rather ſtaio my ſelfe vponupon the ſentence of ſainct Auguſtine, which ſayth, that it ſhoulde bee very good, that an vncerteyne thing of which not onelyonly the Scriptures doe make no mention of it, but doe ſpeake the contrary, that one ſhould affirme nothing: And alledgeth the ſentence of Seneca, ſayinge: Thou oughteſt to affirme nothing of vncerteyne thinges, but keepe thy iudgement inoerteyne. Alſo Tertulian propounded not the ſame, but as an aduiſe, not as a biffinitiue ſentence, and an article of faith. Yet neuertheleſſe, although that hee ſayd it, that ſentence ſerueth me, for to ſhewe vntounto thee that it was no queſtion, in Tertulians tyme, of Purgatorye, after the manner as you hauehave taken it. For hee putteth but one place indifferently for all the elect, and children of Abraham, which hauehave bene and ſhall bee vntill the latter reſurrection. It well appeareth, that hee was of opinion, that they were not yet in the celeſtiall habitations and chiefeſt felicitie, but yet neuertheleſſe he aſſigneth vntounto them Abrahams boſome, in which all the ſoules of the faythfull do reſt generally, without putting any difference betweene thoſe of the auncient fathers, and ours, nor making mention of paine nor any Purgatory. In like manner Ireneus, who was next the tyme of the Apoſtles, is not of an opinion very much contrary and differing. For Irene. aduer. ha reſ. Valentma.notwythſtanding: that he aſſigned vntounto the ſoules of all the Diſciples of Ieſus Chriſt, and the true faythfull, an inuyſible place, whiche is appointed and determyned for them of God, in which they ſhall continue and abyde vntyll the reſurrection, the which they do looke for: Yet neuertheleſſe hée aſſigned but one place for all the Chriſtians, the which hee called Diſciples of Ieſus Chriſte: And bée ſayth not, that ſome ſhall be in paine and other ſome at reſt, but hée putteth them there vppon a condition, and hée aſſigneth vntounto all no other paine, but the taryinge and looking for the reſurrection: ſaying, that the Diſciple is not aboue the Maſter, and that as Ieſus Chriſt is not by and by ryſen after his death, but taryed the time that was appointed him of God his Father, ſo muſt hys Diſciples tarye for theirs, as hée hath ordeyned them. It is very true, that in the booke which Recogn. li. 1.is attributed vntounto Sainct Clement, it ſeemeth that hee woulde putte a certeyne kinde of Purgatorye, but althoughe the booke were of great authoritie, yet neuertheleſſe it woulde ſerue for nothinge for the Prieſtes Purgatorye. For althoughe that hee putteth a certeyne difference betweene the moſt perfecteſt ſeruaunts of God, and the others whiche hauehave not nor could not entyrelye accompliſhe the rule of ryghteouſneſſe, but hauehave yet ſome mallice remayning in theire fleſhe, yet hee aſſigned no paine vntounto thoſe: Although that hee thinketh that the others are in more greater glory, but ſaith, that their ſoules are kept in goodly pleaſaunt and ioyfull regyons and countreys, that in the reſurrection of the dead, when they ſhall hauehave receyued theire bodyes, and that theyre reſolution ſhall bee purged, they maye come vntounto eternall lyfe. Beholde his owne woordes, the which he recited, as ſpoken of Sainct Peter; vntounto Saint Clement. But there is no appearaunce, that Saincte Peter hath holden thoſe woordes whiche were attributed to him in that booke, nor that Sainct Clement hath The booke of Clement.wrytten them, althoughe that the booke is intituled in his name. For howe manye propoſitions be there altogether contrarye vntounto the doctrine of Saincte Peter and of all the Apoſtles? But put the caſe, that the p. 196booke were verye auucient, and of the Authour to whome they attribute it, if it be not canoniſed, nor of the Apoſtolicall authoritie: and whiche is more, he putteth no Purgatorye, in whiche there is pame and torment: And when thou wouldeſt conclude by thoſe woordes, that there ſhould be ſome manner of Purgatorye, I wyll vanquiſhe and ouercome thee by hymſelfe, eyther that there is none, or elſe that it is for Purgatory is either far all, or els ther is none.all men: And that there is no man ſo holye, but that he muſt be purged in the ſame. For there was neuer any ſo iuſte and righteous: which hath fulfilled and perfected the rule of righteouſneſſe: which hath bene without ſinne: & which hath not prayed with all the Saints, accordinge to the witneſſe of Dauid; for his unquitye, Pſa 32.Ps 32and ſayth: pardon our ſinnes: and in whome one could not finde inoughe for to purge, yea, after this lyfe, excepte he had anye other purgation, then that whiche is made by the bloude of Ieſus Chriſte. But although The diuerſltie of opinions touching the ſuffrages for the dead.there were none other reaſons, for to proue that the ſuffrages for the deade, and the Purgatorye, are found out and deuiſed by mans inuentions, then the diuerſitie of opinions of thoſe whiche hauehave written and ſpoken of it, yet the argument is verye ſtronge. for they doe propounde the doctrine ſo vncerteyne, that one cannot make any reſolution, and a greate deale leſſe, then of the opinions of the Philoſophers: but doe leaue alwayes the conſcience uncerteyne, agaynſt the nature of the woorde of God, whiche alwayes is certeine and cléere.

Hillarius.

Me thincketh that I doe ſée them holde ſo theire pro & contra, that they would make of the Theology, Theologia Ac. … dem…a.an Academia, in which one may diſpute probably, on both ſides, without giuing any certeine reſolution, but leaue all thinges in doubt. For what foundation hath all that which they doe affirme and ſaye, but vppon fables and mans opinions? The which wee may as ſurely deny, as they to affirme them: yea, by more iuſte reaſon. For wee hauehave more Scripture for to tell them the contrary, then they hauehave of apparaunt reaſons, for to proue that which they affirme: for they are Doctors, of which the Apoſtle ſpeaketh off, which doe not vnderſtande that which they ſpeake, nor which they teach and affirme.

Theophilus.

If they were ſo modeſt and reaſonable 1. Timo. 1. b. 7.as the Philoſophers Academians, they ſhould not bee ſo much to bee deſpyſed and blamed. There is no doubt, but that it is required, that wee bee aſſured in the doctrine of The certeyntie in the doctrine of the faith required.the fayth and religion. For there can bee no fayth, where there is but opinions, wythout certeyne perſwaſion.

Wherefore the Theologians hauehave not ſo lawful and iuſt excuſe, as the Achademians. For when the queſtion is but of humaine and naturall thinges, it is not ſo greate a daunger to follow the opinions of men, and to abide in doubt: But when it is a queſtion of fayth and religion, it muſt bee that the conſcience bee aſſured: the whiche it cannot bee, but by the certeyne worde of God. Now wee doe cleerely ſee, that in ſuch matters they goe not but by The diſputaciōs of the babblers of diuinitie.coniectures and preſumptions, and euerye one of them ſayth and ſpeaketh that which commeth in his fantaſie: But if they doe that but amongeſt themſelues, by manner of diſputation, as the Academians dyd, and after the manner as ſainct Auguſtine did put foorth the queſtion of purgatorye, without affirming it, as an article of ſayth, wée would let them diſpute as longe as they will. But behold that which is worſe, they woulde, that theire opinions ſhould bée receyued and allowed, as oracles and reuelations deſcended from heauen: and they pronounce and giuegive their ſentence, with more greater authoritie, then if they dyd ſpeake of the pure woord of God: and do compell the Chriſtian people to beleeue & confeſſe, as an artycle Temerine to affirme. Tho. m. 4. diſt 21.of ſaith, that which they hauehave dreamed and inuented, iudgeing and condemning for hereticks, all thoſe which do ſpeak againſt it: in ſuch ſort that it is more daungerous to ſpeake againſt, & withſtand their decrées & decretals, then the commaundement of God. For our Lord Ieſus Chriſt p. 197ſayth, that all ſinne committed by men may be pardened, … Sinne … holy Ghoſtexcept the ſinne and blaſphemy againſt the holy ghoſt. But it is written in the decroes and Canons: woe do commaūd, that all decretall conſtitutions of all the Popes ſhould boe Diſt. 19. ca. 51. Romanorum.kept in ſuch ſort, that if any doe commit any thinge contrary vntounto them, that he doe know that pardon is denied vntounto him, and that he ſhall not hauehave it.

Hillarius.

I do then conclude by that Canon, that ſinne To ſinne againſt the Pope.againſt the Pope, is ſinne againſt the holy ghoſt, bicauſe there is no pardon. We muſt not ieſt with them. I will compare them to the Academians, but I had a great deale rather that they were like vntounto them, then ſuche as they are.

Theophilus.

It ſhould be a greate deale better to define nothing raſhly, of that whereoff they cannot be certeyne: The cou…cell of Saint Auguſtin. in Geneſ. 11. 10Gen 11:10and to followe the Counſell of Sainct Auguſtin, ſpeaking of the riche man of whom mention is made in S. Luke: It is better to doubt of ſecret things, then to pleade of vncerteine things. I doubt not, but that we muſt vnderunder ſtand that the riche man is in moſte extroeme hot paines and torments: and that poore Lazarus in ioy and comfort. But in what ſort one ought to vnderſtand that flame and fire of hell: that boſome of Abraham: that tongue of the ryche man: that finger of poore Lazarus: that thirſt of torment: that droppe of refreſſing, with much a doe we can finde of thoſe which doe ſéeke it with meekenes and modeſty: but of thoſe which do debate of it with contention and ſtrife, many.

Hillariu.

If Sainct Auguſlin, had alwayes followed, that whiche he teached here, his doctrine would hauehave bene more pure, and would hauehave ſpoken yet more ſoberly then he hath done of the ſuffrages for the dead: ſith that he had no ſure nor certeine witnes in the worde of God.

Theophilus.

Ieſus Chriſt hath not fore ſpoken without Mat. 24. b 24. The elect in dańger to b. ſeduced.Matt 24cauſe, that if it were poſſible, the very elect ſhoulde boe ſeduced and deceiued by the falſe Prophets & falſe Chriſts. Wherefore wee ought not to meruaile although Sainct Auguſt…n, and ſuch as he was, hauehave ſometime bene ouercome. But for vsus we ought rather to be more confirmed in the doctrine of the Goſpell, ſeeing it fulfilled before ou… eyes, & we ought well to learne by the example of others, to walke in the feare of God, without ſtraying or wandring any thing after our opinions and fantaſies. For if already from the time of the Apeſties, Antechriſt did bée…in his raigne and worke his ſecret of iniquitie, we muſte … doubt, but that he was muche aduanced in the time of Sainct Auguſtin. And the Apoſtle calleth not without cauſe, his worke and buſines the miſtery of iniquity. For The reigne of … and he vvorking of … …. 59. a. 5.he hath proceeded and gone forwarde ſo ſecretly, craftely and ſubtilly, that the moſt holyeſt and beſt learned, hauehave bene ouercome. vſe hath of a long time hatched his Cockatrice, and Baſilikes eggs, before hee could bee perceiued, and hath practiſed his matters ſo ſubtilly vnderunder the earth, that ſcant one could know, to what ende he tendeth, vntill ſuch time as he hath ended and finiſhed his worke, and that Ieſus Chriſt, by his Goſpel, hath opened and reuealed it to his electe: as wée doe ſée by experience, at this 2. Theſſ. 2. b. 52 Thess 2preſent time: And as I truſt, ſhal doe yet more hereafter. Wherefore we knowing into what inconueniences our fathers are fallen into, yea the wiſeſt and moſte perſect in attributing to much to the authoritie of men and to their opinions and traditions. Let vsus take heede, to affirme and Rash determinations & … nations.propound vntounto the chriſtians, as an article of faith, and doctrine neceſſary to ſaluation, any thing, of whiche wee hauehave no certeine witnes by the holy ſcripture, & of which by them wee are not cleerely reſolued. For that commeth thorow to greate temeritie and preſumption, the which God will not leaue vnpuniſhed. But whiche is more, although the thing ſhoulde be very true, and ſo as it hath bene preached vntounto vsus, yet neuertheleſſe, ſith that the worde of God doth not make anye expreſſe mention of it nor doth cléerely ſhew forth, of whiche wee can drawe anye certeine conſequence, and of whiche wée hauehave no commaundement of GOD, wee maye ſafelye bée ignoraunt of it, without daunger of our ſaluation. For p. 198ſith that the Scripture is giuen vntounto vsus for our inſtruction, vvhat thing vve may ſafely he ignorant off, and vvhat not.not for vsus to inquire of the eſtate of the dead, but for to learne vsus the way for to come vntounto the place of that holy eternall reſt, and true felicity, wée ought to content our ſelues, to know that whiche is commaunded vsus and whiche to the ſame is neceſſary for vsus, and wee may not bee ignoraunt of them, without dammage and hurte of our ſaluation. And therefore, wée hauehave no néede, but to holde vsus to Ieſus Chriſte, and to aſſure our ſelues vponupon his promiſes, béeing certeine and ſure, that that whiche hée hath promiſed vntounto that poore théefe hanging vppon the Croſſe with him, ſaying: This daye ſhalt thou bée with mée in Paradiſe, Luc. …3. ſ. 43.Luke 3toucheth and concerneth eueryevery one of vsus, as muche as him, if we be true faithfull. Behold the limittes whiche the Scripture appointeth vntounto vsus, within which wée muſt dwell, without tormenting our ſelues after the eſtate of the dead, and Purgatory, of which it maketh not mention of it one word.

Euſebius.

I know very well, that although I ſhoulde alledge all the Doctors which hauehave bene ſithens the death and paſſion of Ieſus Chriſt, vntill this preſent time, that I ſhall profitte nothinge with you. For when you perceiue that they are contrarye vntounto your opinions you will not receiue them but when you thinke that they doe make for you: But you will runile to the Scripture, as the pleaders whiche hauehave an euill matter, doe ſéeke and finde out all the delayes that they canne, and do call alwayes from ſentence to ſentence, what ſoeuer wrong it be, or for to delaye theyr condempnation, or vnderunder hope that they hauehave to finde out ſome practiſe or ſhyfte for to deceiue and ouercome theyr party, and to corrupte the Iudges. Wherefore I doe well perceiue that I ſhal be nothing with you, if by the cleere and plaine texte of the Scripture, I doe …ot ſloppe your mouth.

Theophilus.

If thou canſl do it, theu haſt gotten y^• victory. For vntounto the ſame doe apperteine the extreame or latter Vn…o vvhom do …perreyne the extreme appe… …vions in cauſes of …d. ygloaappellations. And therefore it ſeemeth to mée, that you do greater wrong then we, without any compariſon. For we doe not put our ſelues out of reaſon, nor from the ordinary of iuſtice, ſith that we doe appeale to none other then to our ordinary. Iudge. For what wrong to we vntounto men, Ordinary iudgeif from them we doe appeale before God which is the ſoueraigne Iudge of al creatures, which hath already giué his ſentence of our differences, by his word, and by the mouth of Ieſus Chriſt his ſonne, and of all his Prophets and Apoſtles, vntounto the which we ought to ſtay our ſelues? Diuine & humayne councells Mat. 18. Act. 15. b. 8.Matt 18Acts 15But you not beeing contented with them, do appeale from God vntounto men: and from the counſell of the Prophets and Apoſtles, of whom Ieſus Chriſt is preſident & chiefe thorow his holy ſpirite, to the councels of men, in whiche The power of the Pope. Diſt. 34. c. ioctor. Gloſ. & diſt. 82. ca. Hreſtyter. & Glo. Apoſtolorum 17. q. 4. ca. 51. ſiquis. diſt. 40. c St Papa. Diſt. 96. c. Satis &c. ſimplices & inſcriptis.the Popes doe rule and are Preſident: who according to your doctrine, hauehave ſuch power and authority that they may diſpence againſt the apoſtolicall doctrine, & the right of nature, & conſequently againſt the Goſpell & the word of God. For the Pope hath all the diuine and humaine rights in the cabin and cheſt of his breaſt, & that he ought to iudge eueryevery one & ought not to be iudged of any man: inſomuch that when he ſhal leade innumerable of people & great companies into hell, no mortal man ought here to checke and rebuke him of his faultes. For he is god, who cannot be iudged of men.

Hillarius.

It followeth then, that if one doe ſee him to go to all the diuels & to drawe thither all the worlde with him, that none ought to ſaye vntounto him that hee doth euill. For hee that ſayth it, both Diſt. 40. ca. Si Papa.iudgeth and rebuketh.

Euſebius.

The Canons do not deny, but that he is to be rebuked, if he be an hereticke, & that he erreth in the faith.

Theophilus.

But you do ſay that hee cannot erre. And The …oye out …f th: …herefore when hee is an heretyke and out of the faithe dare we to rebuke him and his doctrine: no not by our au…ority and ſilence, but by the ſame of God and of all his Prophets and Apoſtles, the whiche we do but propound: p. 199yea whiche is more, by that or the auncient Doctors, as thou mighteſt hauehave ſeene and knowen if thou wouldeſt. And if thou doe not content thyſelfe with that, I will The vvitneſſe of Antechriſt agaynſt his Purgatory. De bapt. & ofſee. cap. Maiores cauſat. God pardoneth not the moy…ie Verſus Magiſtrales ex gloſa Larga D…i pietas veniam non dimidial it Nam. nil. aut. totum te lacrymante dabat.ſhew vntounto thee, how that wicked Antechriſt condempneth himſelfe of his owne mouth, and confeſſeth that there is no ſuch Purgatory, as he woulde eſtabliſh. For hee himſelfe confeſſeth, after that he is much glorified, that God, whiche hath ſaued all men, knoweth no worke of imperfection. And for that cauſe, be pardoneth not ſinnes in part. Therefore the gloſe made vponupon that text alledgeth, two verſes conteining that ſentence: The great goodnes of god, will not pardon the halfe. For when with teares & wéeping thou comeſt vntounto him, hee will giuegive thée all or nothing. Now if it were ſo that God reſerueth one part of the ſinnes, for to be puniſhed in Purgatory, as you do affirme, it ſhould follow that God worketh not but halfe with his ſeruants, the whiche none can ſay, without blaſphemy: For the workes of God are perfect. Wherefore Deut. 32. …. 4Deut 32if thou hauehave not Euſebius any better refuge in the holye Scripture then thou haſt yet ſhewed foorth, thou haſt loſt thy cauſe by the ſentence of God, and of all his ſeruants: yea of Antechriſt himſelfe whom the vertue of God compelleth to confeſſe the trueth, againſt his owne noſe and inſpite of his teeth, as the diuels did confeſſe Ieſus Chriſte Mar. 8. d. 29 Marc. …. c. 25Mark 8feeling his power, the which they could not reſiſt.

Thomas.

Thou doeſt here what matters theſe people here hauehave declared vntounto thee, Euſebius: Thou haddeſt almoſte wonne me at the beginning of this diſputation, & confirmed mee in thine opinion, when that I heard thee propound the words of Sainct Auguſtin. But now, after that I hearde their replyings, I am more vncerteine then before. Wherefore I muſte here the rude of that cauſe, & the laſt ſentence, the whiche is giuen by the word of God. I hauehave determined to declare vntounto you the cauſe of my voyage. as I hauehave promiſed, after that Euſebius ſhal hauehave done with you: But I am content to deferre it vntill tomorrow, to the ende I maye returne vntounto you more reſolued. Wherfore I pray thée, Euſebius, that thou prepare thy ſelfe to fight with them valiantly by the ſword of the word of God, and that we may ſee the ende of that Purgatory, and alſo of the Limbe, whereof the matter hath bene broken off, & hath not ben followed nor reſolued. Yet neuertheleſſe this is one pointe, the which I deſire almoſte aſmuch the reſolution, as of the Purgatory. And to the end you may hauehave the more leaſure to debate of the matter, I will hold you no longer. But bicauſe that it is now ſo late, therfore me thinketh that it ſhalbe better to take the time at our pleaſure.

Hillarius.

I do like wel Thomas his counſell.

Theophilus.

I am content that we do ſuffer & graunt vntounto Euſebius all that he would hauehave, to the ende we giuegive him none occaſion to complaine, that he hath had no time and the meane to defende his cauſe.

Euſebius.

Sith that it is ſo, I doe agrée to your opinion: But it is vppon ſuch condicion, whiche is of force, that before that I departe from you, either that you be of mine opinion, or I of yours: wherevppon ſaye a dieu, farewell.

p. 200VntoUnto the Reader.

It ſeemeth vntounto mee good to adde vntounto thee here the ſequence of thoſe that bee dead in Latin, the whiche was omitted in the margent, Fol. 167. where it is tranſlated faithfully into Engliſh meeter.

Oratio ſiue ſequentia ad beatam Mariam pro defunctis.

Lugentibus in purgatorio,

Qui torrentur ardore nimio

Et torquentur ſine remedio,

Subueniat tua paſsio.

O Maria.

Fonses patens quae culpas abluis

Omnes ſanas & nullum reſpuis,

Manum tuam extende mortuis

Qui ſub poenis languent continuis

O Maria.

Ad te pia, ſuſpirant mortui,

Cupientes de poenis erui,

Et adeſſe tuo conſpectui,

Et gaudis aeternis perſrui.

O Maria.

Clauis Dauid quae coelum aperis,

Nune beata ſuccurre miſeris,

Qui tormentis torquentur aſperis,

Educ eas de domo carceris.

O Maria.

Lex iuſlorum, Norma credentium,

Vera ſalus in te ſperantium:

Pro deſunctis ſit tibi ſludium

Aſsidue orare ſilium.

O Maria.

Benedicta per tua merita

Te rogamus mortuos ſuſcita,

Et dimittens corum debita:

Ad requiem ſis eis ſemita.

O Maria.

FINIS.