Common Places, Letters · Letter 52 – Letter 53
To the ſame man. 54.
VNtoUnto your letters right excellent man and moſt louing Goſſip, which I receiued at the handes of my L. Ambaſſadour, I anſwere ſomewhat ſlowlie, becauſe I coulde not before hauehave any carier. But nowe woulde I hauehave you to vnderſtand that wée are all in good health. And as touching the matter: the 24. day of December I came to Poyſſi, there Beza in many thinges confuted the Cardinals Oration. Firſt he treated of the Church: and ſhewed that wee affirme it not to bee inuiſible as we are accuſed. Moreouer the authoritie of the ſcripture and of the Church was handled, and it was prooued that in the ſcripture is contained all things neceſſarie to ſaluation. And becauſe the Cardinall had laide to the charge of our Miniſterie that we hauehave no impoſition of handes and iuſt ſucceſſion, manie things were brought of that matter. And as touching the Euchariſt ſaide Beza, the bodie of Chriſt is in déede truely eaten, but yet ſpiritually and by faith. Further it was declared out of the ſayings of Auguſtine, that Councels may erre. The Cardinall ſtoode much and in a manner wholie vppon the written worde and vnwritten word, foreign & foreign.and as touching the article of the Euchariſt, he proteſted he woulde no further procéede to deale with vsus, vnleſſe we woulde agrée together with him as touching the Supper of the Lorde. Neither did he ceaſe to obtrude vntounto vsus the Confeſſion of Auguſta, albeit that he and his ſort doe miſlike of the ſame. Wherefore our men demaunded of him, whether he himſelfe woulde receiue the ſame. He ſaide, No: but yt he would ſtād vntounto it as touching the Article of the preſence of ye Lordes bodie. Then was laid foorth a iuſt complaint & expoſtulation yt they would driue vsus vntounto thoſe things which they themſelues woulde not vndertake. But the Confeſſion which hée ſpake of, he affirmed was ſent him by certaine Princes of Germanie, and from thence he gathered this briefe ſentence: that in the moſt excellent Sacrament of the Euchariſt, is preſent the fleſh of the Lorde corporallie, ſubſtantiallie and reallie, and ſo it is giuen and receiued: and he willed vsus that either wee ſhoulde aſſent thereunto, or elſe, that we ſhoulde procéede to conferre no further. But it was aunſwered that this might not bee doone. This imperious ſpeach of the Cardinall, both the Quéene, the Prince of Condie and the Admirall tooke in ill part. For they ſawe that they delayed the conference, and that they ſought a readie occaſion to hauehave it broken off: & therefore meant to begin with this Article, wherein they knewe for a certaintie that wée would not agrée with them. Alſo Beza complained that they would with that Article beginne the conference appointed. The Cardinall thereunto anſwered, that for good cauſe it was ſo doone, ſéeing he in his firſt Oration caſt the firſt ſtone of offence, ſaying: that the bodie and bloud of Chriſt is more diſtant from the bread and wine than heauen is from the earth: and that therefore he woulde with al ſpéede, that the people and flocke committed vntounto him ſhould be deliuered from ſuch a cogitation. All theſe things were ſpoken in the Frenche tongue. For ſo it was agréed vppon, becauſe the Quéene, the King, and the noble Perſonages might vnderſtande. Wherefore ſince I cannot ſpeake that language, although I vnderſtande the ſame, I ſpake nothing: neither was I requeſted to ſpeake. But yet in the ende, at the inſtance of my brethren and aſſociates, I deſired of the Quéene that leaue might be giuē me to ſpeake hereafter, which courteouſlie and moſt gentlie ſhee graunted mée. Moreouer I demanded in what tongue ſhée would hauehave mée to ſpeake: She anſwered, In Italian, that ſhée alſo might not bée ignorant what ſhoulde bee doone. The 26. day of September we mette together againe. We were warned by ye Quéene, the Prince of Condie and the Admirall, who were deſirous that the conference ſhoulde not be broken of, that we ſhoulde forbeare to ſpeake in the firſt place of the Article as touching the preſence of the bodie and bloud of Chriſt in the Supper. For they ſaw it would come to paſſe before wee ſhoulde come to that point, that they ſhould be conuinced of moſt grieuous abuſes and errours. Wherefore we preſented a ſupplication to the Quéene, wherein two things ſpeciallie were contained: firſt that our men ſhoulde by the ſentence of the Cardinall vppon no iuſt cauſes be diſpoyled of their miniſterie: whereas yet, if we woulde vrge them touching their inſtitution according to the lawfull Canons and the holie ſcriptures, wee might eaſilie ſhewe the ſame to bee voide, and that they are verily ſtraungers from the true Church of God. Secondly we complained that we are in a manner compelled by force, to receyue the confeſſion of Auguſta, and to ſubſcribe to the preſcpipt wordes thereof, otherwiſe that the appointed conference ſhall not goe forward. We ſhewing that it belonged vntounto the maieſtie royall, to decrée as touching the manner and order of diſputing, the Quéene at that time made no anſwere to the ſupplication. There the Cardinall began againe to deale as touching our vocation, affirming that the ſame is voide. Further he complained that we reprooued both him and other biſhoppes as though they had no iuſt calling in the Church of Chriſt laying to our charge that we woulde goe about to ouerthrowe the kinges authoritie, whereby they were created Biſhoppes: which in his iudgement were a moſt ſeditious thing. After this he turned his ſpéech to the Euchariſt, affirming that the wordes of the ſuppper, to wit, This is my bodie, muſt bee vnderſtoode euen as they be ſpoken. There I tooke him at his worde, and firſt of all I defended the miniſterie of our Churches. It would now be ouer long to write the reaſons. Alſo I aunſwered to the falſe accuſation wherein he ſlaundered vsus to be ſeditious, as we that woulde not hauehave the appointment of Biſhops to be in the Kinges power. I added moreouer that I did verie much maruel that the Cardinall ſaide yeſterdaie, that there were onelyonly thrée Councels before Auguſtin, ſéeing hee himſelfe maketh mention of the Councell of Ariminum, and the Syrmian Councell helde in the time of Conſtantius, which councels ſince yt they gréeuouſly erred they were afterwarde amended. I obiected moreouer that he was excéedinglie deceiued, inſomuch as he was bolde to affirme, that in the commaundementes of God in the holie hiſtories, in the Teſtamentes and Sacramentes, there be no tropes or figuratiue ſpéeches and I made it euident by the ſcriptures that there were figures founde, and that therefore it might not be concluded of him that the words of the Lord (which they call the wordes of conſecration) ſhoulde bee vnderſtoode abſolutelie. There a Spaniarde the Prince of the Ieſuites, which came thither with the Popes Legate, ſodenly tooke holde of my wordes and made a ſharpe oration where he reprooued the Quéenes Maieſtie, that ſhee hath taken vppon her the iudgement of theſe cauſes, ſeeing it did not belong vntounto her but vntounto the Pope, the Cardinals and Biſhops, and that it is not méete while the Councell of Trent is helde to celebrate here ſuch a priuate conference. This Oration of the arrogant man greatly offended the Quéene, and had it not beene for the Cardinall of Ferrara, ſhee woulde hauehave taught the Ieſuite modeſtie. The Cardinal turned his talke to mee, yet ſo neuertheleſſe as all men might perceiue that he refuſed to incounter with me. Hée beganne to alledge that he vnderſtoode not my language, Whereas notwithſtanding it is reported that hee vnderſtandeth it verie well. Hee ſaid that he had rather diſpute with a man of his owne language. But I excuſed my ſelfe that I ſpake on this wiſe by the commaundement of the Quéene, and that otherwiſe I was readie to diſpute in Latine. Therefore he beganne to aunſwere me after a ſort in the French tongue, which hee coulde not hauehave doone, vnleſſe he had vnderſtoode what I ſaide. Yet neuertheleſſe he aunſwered not to all the obiections. And when I was to confute his arguments, the Quéene aduiſed me to vſe the Latine tongue, to the intent that all the prelates and Doctors which ſtood by might vnderſtande. I obeyed, and thoſe thinges I ſpake which were conuenient for the time. Therewithall came Beza and in fewe wordes aunſwered the iangling Spaniarde. And then he beganne to deale with the Cardinal himſelfe about the ſupper of the Lord, and to diſpute ſomewhat as touching Tranſubſtantiation. And the Cardinall of Loraine woulde not hauehave it to be founde in the ſcriptures, that breade was giuen by Chriſt in the holie ſupper. There did I bring in the expreſſe wordes of the Euangeliſt who ſaith, that the Lorde tooke breake, bleſſed it, The cardinall of Loraine ſet to ſchoole by Peter Martyr.brake it, and gaue it to his diſciples: and I ſhewed that theſe verbes hauehave no other accuſatiue caſe than Bread. In vaine did he indeuour to vnwinde himſelfe. D. Depenſius beganne to ſpeake ſomwhat in the matter. But when he coulde not refraine from the lowde and clamorous ſpéech of the Sorboniſtes, the matter brake foorth into an action of tumult: inſomuch as neither the Cardinall himſelfe abſtained from excéeding great noyſe. Wherefore at the commaundement of the Quéene the night being now come the aſſembly was diſolued. The manner of that action ſéemed vnworthy of a kinglie preſence, wherefore the Quéene determined to bee no more preſent, neither would ſhe afterward that the matter ſhould be tryed betwéene ſo manie, but ſhe aſſigned fiue colloquutors on the aduerſaries part, and fiue alſo on our part. Of the aduerſaries were choſen the Biſhoppe of Valence, the Biſhop of Sagenſis, Doctor Bottiller, Doctor Salignacus and Doctor Depenſius: and of our ſort theſe be the names. Beza, Galaſius, Marlorate, Spina, and my ſelf. For both partes there were appointed Notaries. But being without Iudges and other witneſſes, we talke friendlie and quietly enough. For ſo farre as I can perceiue, wee hauehave aduerſaries méeke enough and which diſagrée not much from vsus. Wee hauehave béene nowe thriſe with them: and to conclude we hauehave onelie dealt as touching the preſence of the bodie in the ſupper. I am called but ſeldome to the Quéene and that priuilie. By whoſe indeuour this is doone it is euident enough, but I will ſhewe you thereof an other time. Fare you well right worthie man and my reuerende brother in Chriſt. Aſſiſt vsus with your prayers, and ſalute your whole houſehold and all our moſt déere fellow miniſters in Chriſt. All my aſſociates doe ſalute you, and alſo Iulius and Stuccius I will write to the Magiſtrate, but yet breifely. Impart you vntounto him thoſe thinges which by your wiſdome you ſhall thinke expedient. From the Court at Saint Germans the 2. of October. 1561.
To Iohn Caluin. 55.
I Feared leaſt thoſe letters had bin loſt which I ſent vntounto you when I firſt came hither: but I perceiue they were deliuered vntounto you ſéeing you hauehave courteouſlie anſwered them. Howe the ſtate of our buſineſſe is here, I thinke it not néedeful in manie words to ſignifie vntounto you, becauſe Beza in his letters comprehendeth al things that are woorthie to be knowen. And as touching the ſucceſſe that will come hereafter I cannot tell of what good I ſhoulde aſſure my ſelfe, but doe vtterly deſpaire that the ſchoole men and falſe Eccleſiaſticall men will conſent with vsus. We hauehave had verie quiet Coloquutors, and as they pretend, not diſagréeing from vsus. Howbeit of the Cardinals, Biſhops and Doctors, they are miſliked and they be accuſed as men ſuſpected of Hereſie. This day in the aſſemblie of the Biſhoppes at Poyſsi they purge themſelues and doe pleade their cauſe. The Counſell of the brethren is, that wee ſhoulde deale ſo gentlie and mildelie with the aduerſaries, as wee may ſéeme to hauehave giuen no cauſe of breaking of the Conference. But it is to bee feared leaſt they will impudently abuſe our mildeneſſe. They that are the rulers ſéeme to deuiſe a certaine Interim and would faine a Religion both of that which is Papiſticall and that which is the Lutherans. This word Interim (ſignifying In ye meane time) aroſe of the name of a Booke ſet out by Charles the v. as touching a compoſitiō in Religion till a generall Councell.The baſer ſort of the Papiſtes would not ſuſtaine that burthen: For that is their onelie endeuour that nothing at all may bee changed of their peſteferous ordinance, but would hauehave our Churches to be burthened therewith, if any libertie ſhoulde be graunted vntounto them. But the Quéene will include both parts. I meane them and vsus within the ſame decrées and Edictes. I, after I had giuen Counſell for the pure and ſyncere reſtoring of religion, am no more called for, neither doeth ſhe demaunde any Counſell or inſtruction of mee. To conclude: onelie remaineth the prouidence of God from whence manie thinges muſt bée hoped for: but of the fleſh and arme of the mightie I looke for little or nothing. Verilie this is a ioyfull thing to be heard, that euerie day there comes verie many vntounto the trueth, and ſo greatlie is the number of the faithfull increaſed, as the enemies are marueilouſlie vexed. The Biſhops as it is reported are determined to depart from Poyſſi the next wéeke. The Cardinall of Loraine would obtrude his Catechiſme vponupon the Cities of Fraunce, but the Biſhops doe not receiue it. Fare well right excellent man and moſt louing brother in Chriſt. Salute you all our fellowe Miniſters and alſo my Lorde Marques and Balbanus. In the Court at S. Germans the 4. of October. 1561.