Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 28
The XXVIII. Chapter.
NOw to turne againe to our former purpoſe, if it were ſo, that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forſake our Catholique Religion,aIf you ſhould be of no Religion, whiles all of one, were full of one mind…, you muſt die a nullifidian I warrant you. the iniurious diſputations that you vſe among your ſelues, were ſufficiēt, to make vsus to ſuſpēd our iudgemēt, without leauing to any of both parties, vntill that we could ſee more reſolute in your opiniōs, being the bardeſt matter, the knowing in what cūtry the reſidence ſhould be kept for that matter.bWhere & whē? nay our abſolute ſentence i…, as our bookes doe teſtifie, and we proue it out of the ancient fathers, that your doctrine in this point is but new, & a very young, …ng, in compariſon of that you would here hauehave it ſeeme. You hauehave giuē abſolute ſentēce, ſaying, that the Catholique church hath erred, euen frō the Apoſtles time vntounto this preſent, in praying to God for the ſoules of thoſe that are deade, conſtituted in a third place called Purgatorie. You ſhould, mee thinke, at the leaſt allowe a third place, although it bee not that, to receaue the ſoules of thoſe, whoſe conſciences you hauehave ſo troubled, that they know now, neither what is their faith, nor of what Religiō they ſhould be:cSuch v…ſetled and vnſtable perſons for all your fooliſh gibing, you knowe wel enough who hath a right vntounto and that …heir place is knowen, though your purgatory had neuer beene dreamed of. for when they reade Luthers workes they are Lutherans, when they meete with Caluins workes they are Caluiniſts, & at the laſt they doe not know, which ſide indeede is the trueſt, being both falſe: & therefore I thinke it were good, that a ſequeſtration were made, that neither God nor the Deuill might hauehave part of their ſoules, till there were a farther inquiry made of ſuch a number of ſects, & that ſome good and honeſt arbitratour might giuegive iudgement, as concerning which party hath moſt right. And in the meane while I beſeech god, to open ſo the eies of the people, that they may ſee both your errours and their owne, and that through the abundance of their ſinnes, he permit thē not to fall into an Heatheniſme, vntounto the which you doe ſeeke to drawe them with ſo many contrarie Goſpels.
The XXVIII. Chapter.
ONce againe you obiect vntounto vsus, the contentiō betwixt the Lutherans and Caluiniſts: which (you ſay) is cauſe ſufficient, not onelyonly to make you ſtay from yeelding your conſent to either of vsus, though otherwiſe you were willing to forſake your Religiō, which wrongfully you call Catholique: but alſo ſo troubleth the conſciences of them that reade the bookes writen on both ſides, that they are led one while on the one ſide, anone againe on the other, & ſo in ye end they cannot tell of what Religion to be For whoſe ſakes, though otherwiſe (as you ſay) we giuegive abſolute ſentence, that the Catholique church hath erred, euē frō the Apoſtles times to this preſent, in praying to God for the ſoules in purgatory, you thinke yet we ſhould appoint ſome third place or other to receiue their ſoules, vntill it were determined, wt of theſe belong to God, and which to the deuill. And then you conclude this Chapter, with a ſolemne praier to God, to open the peoples eies to ſee both our errours, & their own ſinnes, leaſt for them thorowe theſe varieties of opinions amongſt vsus, they bee drawen to heatheniſme by Gods permiſſion. This contention in the later ende of your former Chapter you wonderfully amplifie, telling vsus of great battels, railing proceſſes, and horrible excommunications, that hauehave paſſed about this matter of the ſacramēt, on both ſides: and yet there, in another booke, which you hauehave made (you ſay) of the ſacrament: you ſignifie vntounto vsus, that you hauehave beſtowed more coſt to amplify this matter. Againſt this & ſuch like out-cries of theſe men about this matter (gentle Reader) thou art to arme and ſtrēgthen thy ſelfe, with that which I hauehave ſet downe in the fourth Chapter concerning this matter: whereby I hauehave made euident demonſtration vntounto thee, that it is no new thing amongſt the famous teachers in the Church, and true members thereof, to hauehave as great & hoat contentions, as euer there hath beene amongſt vsus in this. And if that which I hauehave ſaied there were not ſufficiēt, I could now further ſhew you, that not only there is as great a cōtrouerſie now and hath beene a long time amongſt themſelues, the nature of their Religion conſidered, as any they can charge vsus with: namely this, whither their Pope or generall Councels hauehave the greater and higher authority, but alſo I might eaſily againe ſay, and ſay truely (as they themſelues know well enough) that in ancient times in the Churches of Chriſt, there were ſuch lamentable and grieuous contentions betweene Paulinus and Flauianus, Lucifer and Euſebius, the Meletians and Euſtathians, all yet otherwiſe being for and in the ſubſtantialeſt pointes of Religion ſound Chriſtians, as that with great trouble to the Church, they ſhunned one anothers communion, and that for verie many yeares togither, as you may reade in Epiphanius libro. 1. Tom. 2. in Theodoret lib. 1. cap. 8. &c. in Socrates libro. 2. cap. 33. & 34. and in Zozomen libro. 2. cap. 17. & 18. And wee reade hiſtor: tripart: libro. 1. cap. 12. that Epiphanius and Chryſoſtome were at ſuch hoate contention and enmity (and yet they were famous Chriſtians and Biſhops both) that departing one from the other, the one ſpitefully ſaied to the other, thou ſhalt neuer die Biſhop, and the other ſaied to him as vncharitably, neither ſhalt thou get home to thy Biſhopricke aliue: both which their imprecations or predictions, as the ſtorie ſhewes, came euen ſo to paſſe. For Chryſoſtome died baniſhed, and the other before he got home to Cyprus. If you would ſee what controuerſie there was betwixt Cyprian, Cornelius and Stephanus Biſhops of Rome, reade Auguſtine contra Donatiſtas libro. 5. cap. 23. & 25. and Euſeb. lib. 7. cap. 3. & 4. And who is ſo ignorant, that the Church ſtories and ancient writers, miniſters vntounto vsus but too too great ſtore, in all ages of controuerſies, and thoſe alſo too hoatly followed euen amongſt Chriſtians, of great name and fame in their times. And therefore what vaine thing is it either for you, or any of your fellowes in this ſort ſtill to amplifie this one controuerſie about the Sacrament amongſt vsus, as though it were ſufficient cauſe of all, or of any of theſe thinges, which you inferre thereupon againſt vsus. Had there beene any wiſedome in them that liued in theſe ancient times, when theſe contentions were that I hauehave ſpoken of here and elſewhere, thereupon to hauehave gathered either all, or any of theſe thinges? Nay, it is euident, that if thereupon they had either ſtoode a loofe from the trueth, growen Neuters or Atheiſts, that they had beene without excuſe before God. For ſeeing to know the trueth, and to be ſettled in it, is a thing ſo neceſſary as it is, the more difficult it is made by ſuch meanes to finde it out, the more thereby they that are the Lordes, and hauehave anie grace, are prouoked to labour, and ſearch to finde it, and to ſettle themſelues the ſtronglier in it. And therefore ſeeing ſuch offences hauehave beene, and alwaies in ſome meaſure are like to bee for the exerciſing of the Church, and triall of Gods children▪ you and ſuch as you, that by ſuch diſcourſes, as this, leade the people to gather ſuch leſſons thereupon, as to ſuſpende their iudgement till all partes be agreed, or now to bee caried this way, now that way, as long as the contention laſteth, ſeeme to be diſpoſed, to teach the people to learne how to bee Atheiſtes. If you minded to hauehave them ſettled in Religion, and preſerued from neutralitie, the mother of Atheiſme, it were your partes to ioyne with vsus (eſpecially in theſe great diuerſities of opinions about Religion, that be now a daies in the world) to perſwade them moſt diligently to ſearch the Scripture, and thereby to trie all ſpirits, and their opinions, whither they be of God or no: yea euen ſo much the more, for theſe varieties ſake, that ſo they might finde the trueth, and be ſettled in it. For they may not fainte, or giuegive ouer thus doing for this: for neceſſary it is that theſe ſhould come: theſe hauehave beene, and will be for the triall, who they be indeede, that thirſt after the trueth, and will cleaue vntounto it. But in taking this contrary way, whatſoeuer you ſay, not wee, but you leade men, and that with a ſtrong hand to Atheiſme. And ſo much the more folly you ſhew, in making theſe collections of yours of theſe controuerſies amongſt vsus, ſeeing amongſt your ſelues i… were an eaſie matter, to put you in remembrance of a number as hoat and feircely followed contentions, as this yet euer was amōgſt vsus. Some thing to make this appeare, I hauehave noted Chapter the 4. but ſeeing you hauehave neuer done with this obiection, the better to make your vanity therin appeare, let the reader further vnderſtand, that your Popes themſelues amongſt themſelues one againſt another, hauehave further proceeded in malitious contention, then euer the Lutherans, or Proteſtāts did. For (as Platina writeth) when Pope long after him (for Boniface the 6. his immediate ſucceſſour was Pope but 25. daies) caried ſuch hatred towards him and his proceedings, that he cauſed his decrees to be abrogated, and (as other Hiſtoriographers write of him) he cauſed him to be taken out of his graue, and ſolemnly to be in a councel diſgraded: which when he had done, therewith not content, he cut of his two fingers, that he vſed to conſecrate withall, and caſt them into the riuer Tibris. But Romanus the firſt ſucceeding him, ratified againe Formoſus doings, and abrogated and diſanulled all Stephens proceedings againſt him. Whoſe courſe Theodorus the 2, and eſpecially Iohn the 10 followed, in iuſtifying, and condemning Stephens doinges againſt him in another councel at Rauenna, conſiſting of ſeuenty foure biſhops. Howbeit Sergius the 3. the 4 Pope after, taketh Stephens part againſt Formoſus, and that ſo hoatly, as that once againe, though he were the ninth Pope from Formoſus, he cauſeth his body to be taken vp out of his graue, diſgradeth him againe, beheadeth him, cutteth of the 3 fingers that were left him of his right hand, and threw his body, and the peeces thereof deſpitefully into Tyber. About the yeare 1354 (as Godfridus de Fontanis writeth) there grew and burſt out marueilous hoate contentions betwixt the Friers of Dominicke and Francis in Fraunce, about their priuiledges, and the prelates of France and the Schollers of Paris: inſomuch that there were publicke and bitter Sermons made by one againſt another, & the one ſide excommunicated another. And Matth. Pariſ. reporteth, that there was by the prelates of France, and the doctours of Paris, nine erronious concluſions (which by his report were of matters of great weight in religion) laied to the charge of the Gray-friers, for the which they excommunicated them, and for which there was hoat ſtirre on both ſides. About the yeare 1470. there was a notorious contention alſo betwixt the Dominicke friers, and the Minorites, the one ſide following Scotus, and the other Aquinas, whither Mary was conceiued in originall ſinne or no: the Minorites, with Scotus, holding the negatiue; and the other, with Aquinas, the affirmatiue: which in the yeare 1509 grew ſo great, that it troubled and deuided al theſe Weſterne partes of the world, notwithſtanding that Pope Sixtus the 4, had giuen out his bull in the yeare 1576. on the Minorites ſide. Inſomuch that ſome of the Dominicke friers were burned at Berne, for their deuiſes to maintaine their faction, as witneſſeth both Pencer, and Munſter. And who knoweth not of the 24. great ſchiſmes (at leaſt) which hauehave bene in the Romiſh Church? during which times (ſome of them laſting verie long) their Church was torne into ſo many factions, as there were Popes and antipopes. Amongſt which factions and their heads, there grewe ſometimes warres indeed, and when they were quieteſt, railing proceſſes and excommunications one of them againſt the other in moſt bitter maner (as the ſtories of thoſe times doe teſtifie) were vſual amongſt them. But what ſhould I rūne any further into this matter? Seeing it is a thing moſt certaine, and whereof no man can be ignorant, that hath taken any paine in reading Stories, that the Church of Rome for all her brag of vnitie, theſe late yeares hath beene ſo ful of hoate and fierie contentions, as that neuer a country, neuer an order, neuer a Cloiſter or Church amongſt them, but it hath had moſt tumultuous contentions, at one time or other, both within themſelues, and with others. And therefore, if this contention amongſt vsus be cauſe ſufficient of ſuch concluſions, and dangerous conſequents, as you ſet downe in this chapter, what my all theſe bee, which we know hauehave bene amongſt you, and of like, whereunto we know, your Church is yet ful? And that more is, certain it is, that howſoeuer cō fidently you write, that there hauehave bene excommunications betwixt the Caluiniſts and the Lutherans, one againſt another about this matter (though with griefe we muſt confeſſe, that it may be, that both partes hauehave exceeded their bounds but to far) you make here a greater ſhew of it, thē there is iuſt cauſe. For whatſoeuer certaine of the Lutherans (as you tearme them) hauehave done in excommunicating the other, yet I thinke you can neuer proue, that Caluin, or any of his iudgement in this point, hauehave proceeded to far againſt any of them. But if they had, why ſhould this ſeeme ſo ſtraunge a thing vntounto you. For you know, I am ſure, that Victor once biſhop of Rome did excommunicate certaine biſhops in his time of the eaſt Church, becauſe they would not ioyne with him and the weſt Church in the time of obſeruing Eaſter. And that Stephanus another biſhop of Rome went as far againſt Cyprian for his opinion of rebaptizing, you cannot be ignorant. Againe you know, that there are but few of the Lutherans, that purſue this controuerſie ſo hoately (the greater part being contented to deale in it more brotherly, and quietly) and that the hoateſt of them alſo hauehave beene ſo thorowly anſwered to all their obiections, as that there beginneth to be greater hope of vnity herein ere it be long, then you well like of, or then ſhal come to paſſe indeed if you can let it. But alas (though it hath bene far more, eſpecially of the one ſide, then any waie can be iuſtified) yet what hath bene their bitternes and heat, of either ſide, at any time to be compared, with the bannings and curſings, fightings and brawlings, murderings, manglings, and all barbarous extremities, that the malitious and ſpiteful heart of man can deuiſe, that hauehave beene amongſt your moſt holy fathers, the Popes of Rome themſelues, and their fauourers & followers at ſundry times, and for many yeares togither. Howſoeuer, as long as both parts agree in the fundamental pointes of Chriſtiā religion, and in ye other moſt neceſſary and fruitful documents concerning this ſacrament (as clearely appeareth by a booke lately ſet forth of the Harmony of our confeſſions) and the controuerſie lieth onelyonly about the maner of the reall preſence, and eating with the mouth, which mouth-eating (as all ſides confeſſe) may bee, and yet without fruit to the receiuer, the benefit indeed ariſing by his preſence onelyonly to the faith of the communicant: the matter is not of ſo great moment, & weight, as that either you ſhould neede to make ſuch a doe about, or that the maintainers therof ſhould neede to ſtriue ſo eagerly for. Which (I hope) God will in his good time reueale vntounto them, and ſo make them to giuegive ouer their contention, and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren. I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter, that you verie greatly belie vsus, when you write; that we hauehave giuen abſolute ſentence, that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apoſtles times vntounto this preſent, in praying to God for the ſoules of thoſe that are dead, conſtituted in a third place called Purgatorie. For both your deuyſes of Purgatorie, and of praying to God for the releife of ſoules there, wee ſaie, and conſtantly defend to bee but popiſh deuiſes, founde out and grounded but vponupon humane reaſon, dreames and fond viſions, and apparitions, and neither taught by the Apoſtles, nor any true paſtour of the Church of Chriſt, for three hundred yeares at leaſt after Chriſt. Tertullian was the firſt, and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montaniſt, that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead. And vntill the Florentine councell, the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you, in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough. And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honeſtie, to hauehave ſpared this your merrie conceit, and pleaſant deuiſe of wiſhing vsus, though wee refuſe your Purgatory, to prouide a thirde place for them, whom our contentions make conſtant on neither ſide. For either (if you had beene wiſe) you would hauehave vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your firſt entrance into it, or els you would hauehave let it alone for altogither.