Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26
The XXVII. Chapter.
I Pray Syrs, ſince you are ſo abſolute, anſwere me to this obiection:aA vaine queſtiō, for whoeuer of vsus either ſaied or wrote ſo? is it good to beleeue almaner of people, that doe alleage the Scriptures, or not If ye ſay, yea, why doe not you beleeue the aboue named Valentinus, Apollinaris, Hebion, Cherintus and Neſtorius, with diuers others, that hauehave ſought to maintaine their errours with the new & olde Teſtament. If you ſaie no, but that we ought rather to follow the counſell of S. Iohn in his firſt Epiſtle, cap. 4. The which is, not to beleeue eueryevery ſpirit, but that we ought to proue, whether it be of God or no:bOur proofe is, that our ſen…e wherein we alleage them, ſtands with the reſt of the ſcriptures, is according to the analogy of faith and good maners, & receiued to be the ſence of ancient time and from time to time amongſt the ſound teachers in the Church. What proofe wil you ſhew vsus of yours? Shewe the priuiledge that you hauehave, by the vvhichwhich God dieth enioine vsus to beleeue your Gospel, rather the the Goſpell of the Pelagians, Nouatians, Neſtorians, and other ſuch falſe Apoſtles, conſidering that they hauehave alleaged the Scriptures aſwel as you. If you ſaie, that they were heretickes, abuſers of the people, and rauiſhing wolues cloathed in lambes skins, and falſe interpreters of the Scriptures, all this is certaine:aThe more hauehave they to anſwere for, that report ſo, for they can neuer proue it to be ſo. But vvhat though the like report goeth of you? Ye ſay, that ye are ſent from Cod, to reforme the Church, They ſaie as much.bWhich of hem I pray you ſeeing they liued before the B. of Rome be…ame Antichriſt. They preached, that the Pope vvas Antichriſt, cYea but the Church of Rome then and now are not al one.ſhevving themſelues verie eloquent in detracting and rayling againſt the Catholicke Roman Church, you doe the like.dYou ſay ſo: but you …ay more then you can proue. At euerie vvord they did alleage the Scriptures in their Sermons, to confirme their doctrine, as you doe for yours. That that they preached, was called by them the Goſpel, & the pure vvorde of the Lord: theſe are the verie tearmes that you vſe among your holie prophetes: they hauehave beene condemned as heretiques by the generall Councels,eNot yet by any lawful and f ee gene…al councel, was euer our religiō, or any point of it condemned. you are ſo likewiſe. They did appeale vntounto the pure vvord of God you doe the like: Yet are they proued to be falſefThis i… flat dogs eloquence. cogging knaues, and ſo ſhal you. Then ſeeing there is ſo great an vniformitie betvveene you, vponupon vvhat groundegVponUpon this, that we are able to iuſtifie our alleaging of them to to be ſound and catholicke, which they are not. ſhall vvee confirme that reaſon that ſhoulde condemne them as heretiques, & allow you for Catholicks.hThis queſtion is rather meete to be propoſed to you, who hauehave learned of the Donatiſts to tye the Church to your popes ſleue and to ſhut it vp within the narrow limits of his dominion S. Auguſtine in his Epiſtle. 161. did put vntounto a Donatiſt called Honoratus this probleme: We deſire thee, not to thinke it much to anſwere vsus to this: what cauſe doeſt thou know, or what thing hath there beene done, that hath made Chirſt looſe his inheritance, ſpred ouer all the world, to cōe to be contained onelyonly in Affricke, & there onelie to remaine? We put the like queſtion toiThough your popiſh Church hath bene none of his …nheritāce a good while, yet he hath had his inheritance alwaies and euer will hauehave, and this we hold and teach and therefore your queſtion, is v…i…e, friuolous and fla…e…ous Caluin, Beza, Viret, & the reſt, that it may pleaſe thē to tel vsus, if that by chaūce they hauehave bene aduertiſed, through what occaſion our Sauiour Chriſt hath loſt his inheritaunce, that is to ſay, the Church ſpread ouer all the world, to remaine now in the later daies, with a cōpanie of rude Swizers, or in two or three corners beſides, & not among the reſt (for there is a great number of good Catholickes) what badge cā you ſhew, or what ſigne to make vsus know, that you are the ſucceſſours of the Apoſtles of Chriſt? If that the Scriptures that you alleage, ought to be a ſufficient proofe, we are content to accept it,kThere as no need that we ſhould doe ſo, becauſe we can proue, that we alleadge them ſoundly & they falſely & corruptly. if you will be content to grant the like vntounto the aboue named heretickes, which hauehave fortified their cāpe with as manie places more, then you doe alleage. Now if that (notwithſtāding the ſcriptures by thē alleaged) you doe condemne thē as hereticks, becauſe that they did interpret thē cōtrary to that that thelVnderſtanding by the Church the true Church, that is one of our reaſons, but that is not al, why we reiect them and their maner of alleaging them, principally we reiect them, becauſe by the plaine euidence of the ſcriptures we can confute …hem. And to deſpiſe the iudgement of the popiſh Church, is not to deſpiſe the iudgement of the true Church of Chriſt. church doeth teach (& to ſaie trueth, you can imagin no other excuſe) to what purpoſe doe you take vponupon you the names of Catholickes, ſeeing that you commit the like offence? The diuerſities of thoſe olde hereſies grounded vponupon the Scriptures ill interpreted, doe teach vsus, that vvee ſhoulde not permit the noiſe of your reformed Goſpell that ſoundeth ſo ſhrill, to make vsus reele frō aYours is but ancient, as Ieroboams religion was, when the 10 tribes were brought into captiuity.our ancient faith, & without going ſo farre to ſeeke that, that we hauehave ſo neere at hād. Let vsus talke of the preſent time, how manie cōtrarie ſects doth there raigne? How manie heads of hereſies?bWith variety of names, you need leſly increaſe the number, as your forfathers were woont to doe, with thoſe whō they firſt called Waldenſes. Some are Lutherans, ſome Anabaptiſts, ſome Puritās, ſome Proteſtāts, ſome Preciſiās, & all theſe doe fortifie their cāpes with Scriptures, to fight one againſt another. The Zuingliās & the Caluiniſts on the other ſide doe write, that al theſe doe erre, and they proue it by Scripture. The Anabaptiſts laugh at al the reſt. The Prophets Celeſtes, which is another ſect, doe no leſſe, grounding themſelues vponupon their reuelations, becauſe that Dauid ſaieth:*Pſalm. 84. Heare what the Lorde doeth ſpeake in me. The Deiſts or Trinitaries, which are come laſt of al, crie out and ſaie, that all they are heretickes, and they proue it by the olde and new Teſtament. I praie now tell me, which of al theſe ſhall I receiue, ſeeing that they doe all alleage the holie Scriptures? If we receiue ſome and not all, thoſe that are refuſed will ſaie, that wee offer them wrong: for they hauehavecThis is but your ſaying ſtill, for you ſhall neuer be able to proue this. their ſhoppes ſtored with as good ſtuffe of the ſcriptures, and aſwell alleadged as all the reſt. If we receiue them all, it will be a renewing of the olde confuſion of Babylon, through the neglecting of ſo manie Gospels. If you ſaie, that we ought to follow thoſe that conforme themſelues moſt vntounto the pure vvord of God, that will come to one ende: for if I doe demaunde of you, how we ſhall know which doe conforme themſelues moſt vntounto the trueth,dIndeade we ſay and we are not aſhamed of it, that onelyonly by the aſſiſtance & direction of the holy Ghoſt, in trying their interpretations by the ſcriptures, it muſt be diſcerned who alle… geth them beſt. you anſwere me, that it muſt be done by the grace of the holie Ghoſt, ſent by the Lord, if with a true heart he is inuocated of the faithful. Seeing you know ſo wel the way how to agree togither, how cōmeth it to paſſe, that you hauehave not vſed it this fortie or fiftie yeares, which are the precincts of the time, ſince your ancient Church began: ſeeing that you hauehave aſſembled ſo manie times togither,eWe hauehave done ſo, and Gods name be praiſed for it, ſo far we hauehave obtained our praier, that we are able by the light of Gods ſpirit to diſcerne, who amongſt all theſe and all others (amongſt whom you papiſtes are the principall) alleages them beſt, & with thoſe we holde peace, for the reſt we morne, yet comforting of our ſelues with this, that neceſſary it is for the trial of the Lords, that there be ſuch ſects. why hauehave yee not praied vntounto the Lorde, to ſende the spirit of trueth to make peace amongſt his Apoſtles? I thinke that you are not ſo vnſhamefaſt, that you will denie the quarels and debates, that hauehave riſen among you:fThe ſtirre betwixt theſe two, though it hath bene more then ſhould bee, yet neither ſo much hath it bene, at leaſt for the followers of Caluin, as you woulde ſeeme, nor nothing comparable to the brawlings and furious contentions amongſt your ſelues often. I doe not ſay, in light words, but in great battailes, in railing proceſſes, in horrible excōmunications, ſent from the Churches of the Lutherans vntounto the Caluiniſts, & frō the Caluiniſts vntounto the Lutherans, as I hauehave ſet forth at large in the booke that I made of the Sacrament: & therefore yee are greatly ouerſeene, that ye hauehave not inuocated the spirit of the Lorde, as Caluin hath taught you in his Catechiſme, to the end that you may come to ſome accorde.
The XXVII. Chapter.
FIrſt here you aſke vsus, whither it be good to beleeue al maner of people that alleage ſcripture? We anſwere you, no: but wt S. Ioh. 1. Epiſt. 4. We wiſh all men to trie the ſpirits whither they be of God, or no, before they beleeue thē. And we adde further with Iohn in the ſame place, Hereby ſhall yee knowe the ſpirit of God. EueryEvery ſpirit that confeſſeth, that Ieſus Chriſt is come in the fleſh, is of God: and that ſpirit, which confeſſeth not that, is not of God, but is the ſpirit of Antichriſt. By which wordes wee anſwere fullie your ſecond demaunde alſo, and giuegive you a proofe, that our ſpirit is of God: and yet neither theſe heretiques, which you name, nor yours any better, then that ſpirit of Antichriſt, which Iohn ſpeaketh of. For I am ſure, you muſt needs graunt mee (if you conſider theſe wordes of Saint Iohn well) that hee ſpeaketh here onelie of confeſſing ſoundlie, and rightly, that Ieſus Chriſt is come in the fleſh: which wee doe (as wee are able to proue) by the Scriptures truelie alleadged, and neither they nor you are able to proue that, and therefore this is a plaine proofe, that ours is of God, and neither yours nor theirs can be. They confeſſe him not aright to be come in the fleſh, in that one way or other, they erred not onelie in the doctrine of his office, but alſo held ſome hereſie or other againſt the trueth of his perſon. And you confeſſe him not aright to be come in the fleſh, becauſe not onelyonly with ſome of the anciēt heretiques (as namelie the Marcionites) for the louelove you hauehave to your fiction of Trāſubſtātiation, you hold him to hauehave ſuch fleſh, as ſhall for your peeuiſh pleaſures be without all the naturall properties of humane fleſh, and ſo a very phantaſme and not fleſh indeed, but alſo moſt craftily you take from him that glorious office, that the Scripture giueth him, and tranſlate it to what you liſt, and ſo in effecte you denie the cauſe of his comming. For to what ende came he, but to execute that office, that wee are taught in the Scripture, his heauenly father appointed him? Deny therefore that he hath executed that office, and you deny the cauſe of his comming. And you know, ſublatâ cauſâ tollitur effectus: deny the cauſe and the effect is denied. I knowe you will thinke, that I offer you great wrong, in charging you thus directly with denying Chriſt of his office: but if you will hauehave patience a little, if I proue it not, let me hauehave the ſhame thereof. You will ſay for your defence, that you confeſſe and acknowledge him to be the Sauiour and redeemer of the world: and you will ſay, you beleeue by him to be ſaued: I doe not deny, but you will and doe ſay all this, and more alſo; but what is that to the purpoſe, as long as in your deedes and practiſe you go from it againe, and robbe him of that honour, that is due vntounto him? Iudas ſaied vntounto him, Haile maſter, and kiſſed him, when indeede he betraied him: and Pilat wrote him, Ieſus of Nazareth king of the Iewes, and yet crucified him. But to come nearer vntounto you, it cannot be denied, but that the falſe Apoſtles, that gaue Paul occaſion to write to the Galathians, did not deny theſe things, which you giuegive out in wordes of Chriſt, this onelyonly was their fault, that they taught men to ioyne their owne merits, atteined vntounto by the obſeruing of Moſes lawe, togither with Chriſt in the office of iuſtifying thē, as it moſt clearely appeareth, throughout that Epiſtle. For hauing of which conceite in their obſeruations of Moſes lawe, and namely in being circūciſed (for otherwiſe in the ſame place he ſaieth, neither circumciſion, nor vncircumciſion auaileth any thing) hee telleth them moſt confidently chap. 5. that Chriſt ſhould profitte them nothing: yea, that they were aboliſhed from Chriſt and fallen from grace. Whereupon moſt euidently it followeth, that Paul was of this minde, that howſoeuer the lawe was obſerued of them that beleeued in Chriſt, it might not be obſerued wt this minde and to this ende, thereby together with Chriſt to iuſtifie the obſeruer. You cannot ſay, that heere Paul ſpeaketh of obſeruing the lawe, to this ende before they had faith. For he ſpeaketh to ſuch, as after they had by his miniſtry attained vntounto faith in Chriſt, were now taught by falſe teachers, to ioyne their owne merits in obſeruing Moſes lawe, with Chriſt in iuſtifying. But yet you ſay, he ſpeaketh in this, and in ſuch places onelyonly of the workes of the ceremoniall law, which was then aboliſhed: wherein you ſay more, then you can proue. For he ſo excludeth workes from this office of iuſtifying, that he oft aduoutcheth, that iuſtification commeth freely, as Rom. 3. Epheſ. 2. and he calleth ſaluation the free gift of God, Rom. 6. and therefore as little commeth it for morall workes ſake, as for Ceremoniall. But though you could proue, that he diſableth onelyonly Ceremoniall workes, yet you could not eſcape the ſentence ſet downe by the Apoſtle againſt ſuch, as doe them to the end aforeſaied. Yes, ſay you, for we doe not teach men to obſerue them at all, much leſſe to any ſuch ende. What then? you hauehave deuiled a number of Ceremoniall workes of your owne, as the obſeruing of holy daies, and faſting daies, going on pilgrimage, offring to this ſhrine, & that, taking of holy water, creeping to the Croſſe, wearing of this thing and that, and a thouſand ſuch other, which you perſwade men and women to obſerue, with as great an opinion to merit therby, as euer the falſe Apoſtles taught either Galathians, Coloſsians, or any other to obſerue Moſes Ceremonies. And you muſt remember, that Paul reaſoneth to the Col. cap. 2. that ſeeing they were in Chriſt freed from the ceremonies of Moſes law, which he calleth ther, the ordināces of the world, much more they ought to take themſelues freed from traditions, touch not, taſt not, handle not, and very reaſon will tell you, that if in Pauls time it were a denying and renouncing of Chriſt, to obſerue the Ceremonies, that God himſelfe had appointed once, and which ſo long by his owne ordinance had beene kept in the Church, with that opiniō thereby togither with Chriſt to be iuſtified: much more is it ſo, to obſerue theſe beggerly Ceremoniall ordinances of yours, which yet neuer had any allowance from God, but doe flatly contrarie his will in his word. I knowe you Ieſuites hauehave taught you yet one ſhift more, and that is this; that you hauehave not any ſuch opinion in your works morall or Ceremoniall, nor in any thing els, that you doe, or vſe, wherein you hauehave opinion of merit, for their owne dignity, or worthines conſidered in themſelues, but for that they are tincta ſanguine Chriſti, that is, aduanced to that force and dignity thorowe the force of the death and paſſion of Chriſt. Wherein ſathan (as it ſeemeth) hath beene put to trie the vttermoſt of his cunning. For therein (doubtles) is conteined (though colourably) a deepe miſtery of iniquity: and yet vnderunder new colours, the very ſame Antichriſtianitie in robbing Chriſt of his office, that was before. For the reaſon, why we charge you with denying Chriſtes office, is, that wee take it taught in the worde, that he is a ſole, and whole, a full and perfect Sauiour in himſelfe, and by himſelfe, becauſe it is write… Math. 22. that in the mariage of the kinges ſonne, all thinges are prepared alreadie: and Act. 4. that his name is the onelyonly name whereby commeth ſaluation. And we finde, that you communicate (at leaſt) ſome part of this office to mens owne workes and ſatiſfactions, and that (which is more monſtrous) to the workes and ſatiſfactions of others, and to a number not onelyonly of vaine and friuolous things, as to holy water, hallowed graines, Agnus Dei and ſuch like, but alſo to the doing of ſome thinges, which we know and are moſt ſure of, are horrible ſinnes before God, as to your blaſphemous Maſſe-ſaying, and to the vnnaturall murdering or depoſing of lawfull Princes by their owne ſubiects, at your Popes pleaſure and commandement. And by this newe ſhift, none of this former dealing is recanted, or reuoked: but onelyonly this is added, that theſe thinges thus communicate with Chriſt in iuſtifying and ſauing, not ſimplie by their owne vertue, force, and dignity; but by an efficacie, that they hauehave got thorowe Chriſt. Whereupon it muſt needes follow, doth before God and true Chriſtians, that you are growen more iniurious to Chriſt, then euer any of your forefathers were. For whereas before, you your ſelues alone robbed Chriſt of his office; whiles you taught plainely, that theſe thinges ex condigno, & ex opere operato, that is, euen in reſpect of their owne dignity, and by the worke wrought, were meritorious to euerlaſting life: now you continue not onelyonly your former robbing of him your ſelues, but you will make him the principall, or (at leaſt) acceſſarie to this robbing of himſelfe. For now in effect you tell vsus, that he came, and did thoſe thinges, which hee did in his owne perſon, not thereby in and by himſelfe to beginne and finiſh our ſaluation, but to merit by his doings and ſufferings, that theſe thinges done by vsus and others for vsus, ſhould bee the formall cauſe of our righteouſneſſe, and ſo of our iuſtification and ſaluation. So that now Chriſt is onelyonly a Sauiour in meriting, that theſe thinges (which otherwiſe ſhould neuer hauehave had that force and efficacy) ſhould hauehave a power to deſerue and procure our ſaluation. Is not this now a trimme office, that you hauehave deuiſed for Chriſt, that hee ſhould bee a Sauiour onelyonly in procuring habilitie to theſe thinges to ſaue? What one iote of Scripture hauehave you for this? Nay, as the Scripture doeth manifeſtly take from workes, yea euen from the morall and moſt righteous workes done by the faithfull after regeneration, the office of iuſtifying (as it may appeare, in that Abrahams workes and Pauls, when they were in that ſtate, though they were neuer ſo full of them, are diſallowed to hauehave any ſuch effect. Rom. 4.2. Phil. 3.8.9.) ſo doeth it teach vsus, that Chriſt came not, to make other perſons or things to hauehave the office of ſauing mens ſoules, but to beginne and go thorowe that worke ſo himſelfe, as that no part of that glory ſhal be cōmunicated to any other perſon, or thing. For therein we reade, that his owne ſelfe bare our ſinnes in his owne body on the tree: & that by his ſtripes wee are healed. 1. Pet. 2.24. & ſo perfectly, that it is writē Heb. 10.14. we are ſanctified by the offring of the body of Ieſus Chriſt once made, & with one offering hath he cōſecrated for euer, thē that are ſanctified. Whereupon he calleth himſelfe Alpha & Omega, Reuel: 1.11. that is, the firſt beginner, and laſt accompliſher of our ſaluation, or as it is ſaied Hebr. 12. the authour and finiſher of our faith. Whereas by this newe Ieſuiticall diuinity, in the matter of iuſtification, and ſaluation, Chriſt hath but ſo borne our ſinnes in his owne bodie and offered himſelfe to death for vsus, that howſoeuer thereby hee hath begunne to heale and cure vsus, the ending and finiſhing it, muſt be by thoſe other thinges, and he hath done all this to no purpoſe, vnles his worke begunne be ended by theſe things following, in our ſelues and others.
O what intollerable blaſphemie is this! and into what a bottomles pitte of deſperation doe theſe men, the authours of this doctrine, wilfully caſt themſelues! For if the caſe ſtand ſo, as they ſay, how is it poſſible for any man at any time euer to hauehave a faith without wauering? which kinde of faith S. Iames determineth to be fruitles. Iam. 1. For when can any mā tell, that he hath hit of all thoſe things, that are left beſides Chriſts merits, to accompliſh the full merit for his ſaluation? Or how can the ſoule of man ſtāding before the iudgement of God, without any warrant from God, and contrary to all reaſon, perſwade it ſelfe, that it ſhall hauehave heauen for theſe things, ſo full of imperfection and vanity, if not impiety? Further, to proue that you deny Chriſt his owne office, and pinne vponupon him an office of your owne deuiſing, it appeareth alſo in this, that you will not let him be King, Prophet, & Prieſt to his Church, as the ſcriptures teach him to bee. For neither will you ſuffer him to gouerne his kingdome, according to his owne orders, neither to teach his people onelyonly with his own word, nor to ſaue them onelyonly by his own obedience and merits. But in all theſe you croſſe him, in bringing in a number of faſhions, lawes, and ordinances, yea officers, and offices into his houſe, that he neuer ſaied Amen vntounto, in teaching men rather the traditions and inuentions of men, then doctrine onelyonly, that hath warrant from his mouth, and in ſetting vp a number of meanes to ſaluation beſides him.
Now as for vsus, wee neither with the ancient heretiques, nor yet with you hold any hereſie concerning either his perſon, or office. For concerning the one, we holde and beleeue, that he is perfect God, and perfect man, and yet but one perſon conſiſting of thoſe two natures: and concerning the other, that he is ſuch a Sauiour, as that he hath begun and finiſhed whatſoeuer was neceſſary to merite or deſerue our full ſaluation by. And therefore when we hauehave done al the good workes, that poſſibly by his grace we can, yet, though we know and beleeue that God will both accept of vsus, & of thoſe our good workes for his Chriſtes ſake, for feare of robbing him of any part of that office that he tooke vponupon him, we dare not thinke, that therby we hauehave any maner of way merited any part of our ſaluation. That onelyonly we ſeeke at his hands, and through him and his merits alone we looke for it. This doctrine in eueryevery point hath warrant from the Scriptures, and from all ſound antiquity. And this and the reſt of our whole doctrine tendeth greatly to aduaunce the glory of God, both in ſetting forth the ſeuerity of his iuſtice againſt ſin, euen to the leaſt ſin, and the infinitenes of his free mercy in Chriſt: and altogither to throw downe man vnderunder the burden of his ſinnes, both original and actual, that he may ſeeke to riſe againe not at all by any ſtrength of his owne, but onelyonly by the grace of God in Chriſt Ieſus. Whereas yours contrarily tendeth to this end, to lift vp man in a conceit of himſelfe, and to abſcure both the iuſtice, and the mercy of God: As your doctrines of free will, mans ability to keepe and ouerkeepe the law: of veniall ſinnes, euen for the littlenes of them, and of mans owne iuſtifying of himſelfe, may make moſt euident to them, that conſider of them. And therfore ſeeing it is writen, that God reſiſteth the proude, & giueth grace to the humble: Iames. 4.6. and that it is his property, to ſend away the rich empty, and to fill the hungry with good thinges, Luk. 1.53, & to iuſtifie the publican, & to ſende the phariſie home without: Luk. 15. a great ſigne this is, yea a good proofe, that we, rather then you, are led by the ſpirit of God. And as for theſe olde heretiques, you are bound to beleeue vsus, rather then them, becauſe our doctrine not onelyonly by the teſtimony of the Scriptures, but alſo (I dare ſay) euen in your owne conſciences, is ſounder both concerning the perſon and office of the Meſsias, then theirs: and thus you are anſwered both to your firſt, and ſecond queſtion, which you put vntounto vsus in this Chapter.
But yet you go on, and ſay, they alleadged Scriptures as well as we: that we denie, for they alleadged them corruptly, to proue their hereſies, and would not be drawen to expound one Scripture by another, but peeuiſhly vrged the literall or wrong ſence of ſome hard places, againſt the circumſtances both of the ſame places, and that which is manifeſtly taught in others: which is your faſhion altogether: and we alleadge them truely to confirme onelyonly the trueth, and therefore are very well contented, that our interpretations ſhould be tried by all ſoūd and good rules of interpreting. Whereas you adde, If we ſay, they were heretiques, and abuſed the ſcriptures, &c. the like report you ſay is of vsus: I ſay, the more is their fault that ſo report of vsus, for they can neuer proue it. Howbeit to make your report ſeeme the more probable, you cōpare our dealings with theirs, which (by your ſaying) are very like. But the reader muſt be aduertiſed, that you frame their ſpeeches & doings here without booke: I meane, without warrant of any good authour that reporteth theſe things of them, euen of your owne head, that ſo you may the better make their ſpeeches and ours alike. I praie you, in what good authour did you euer reade (and yet here you confidently aduoutch it) that the Palagians, Nouatians, Neſtorians &c. (who were long dead, and buried before your Pope was hatched) preached, that the Pope was Antichriſt? It may be true that you write, that ſome of them railed againſt the Roman Church, that then was. But, alas, what is this for your Romiſh Church now, which is no more like that then, then an apple is like an oiſter? Indeede this is one of your trickes, wherewith you cooſen the poore ſimple people. For it is the faſhion of you all, when you finde in any ancient father, anie thing that ſoundeth to the credit of the Catholique church, or to the commendation of the Roman Church in their daies, to alleadge it as ſpoken in the commendation of your Romiſh church now a 1000. yeares after their death, whereas there is more difference betwixt yours and that, which they ſpeake of, in weighty & materiall points of doctrine, and diſcipline, then in yeares. If your Romiſh Church now would returne to the ſtate of the ancient church of Rome, and grow once like that, you and we ſhould ſoone agree. For that is the thing, that we will ſtand vpō with you, that it is you in your railing vponupon our churches, that according to the faſhion of theſe ancient heretiques raile vponupon the church of Rome that then was, rather, then we. For our churches are 1000. times more like it indeed, thē yours as it is now. Nether are you able to produce your authours, to proue that theſe heretiques did at eueryevery word alleadge ſcripture, or appeal onelyonly thereunto. For the contrary is euident both in Epiphanius, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Auguſt: and others that wrote againſt them. For they teſtifie, that many of them ſhunned the triall of the Scriptures onelyonly, and fled, euen as you doe, to traditions, ſucceſſion of fathers, viſions, & other ſuch like motiues, as councels, fathers, antiquity, conſent &c. as I hauehave ſhewed cap. 3. & as appeareth euidently in diuers of theſe fathers writings, as in Tertul: in praeſcrip: contra haeret: Epiphanius in many places de haereſibus: Chryſoſt: in Math: 4. Irenaeus libro: 3. cap. 2. Auguſt: Contra Maxim: lib. 1. de Baptiſmo contra Donatiſt: lib. 3. cap. 2. in Ioan: Tract. 13. de vnitate Eccleſiae: cap. 15. Epiſt. 165. ad Generoſum. Who but one of your Religion would euer thus groſſely abuſe his ſimple poore Reader? You yet, as a man that had ſaied all this while nothing, but that you might truely ſay, proceede on with your compariſon, & tell vsus, that they were condēned by generall Councels, & ſo are we: they were found cogging knaues, and ſo ſhall we. Whereunto I anſwere, that thoſe which you call generall Councels, were but late Conuenticles of your owne, ſince the apoſtaſie of your Church from the ancient Roman Church, wherein there was indeede no freedome of a lawfull Councell enioyed, and therefore whoſe condemnation we neede care no more for, then Chriſt and his Apoſtles needed to care for the ſentence of condemnation, that in their times the high Prieſtes, Scribes, and Phariſees gaue of them and their doings in their councels. And as for your vnmanerly prophecie, we neede not eſteeme it. For neither is your mouth any ſlander, nor yet doe we take you to be a true Prophet. But ſeeing (ſay you) they and you be thus like, why ſhould they be condemned for heretiques, & you abſolued, & receiued? I anſwere, the likelihood is denied, and the reaſon I hauehave giuen you alreadie. As for Auguſtines probleme you talke of, it is impertinent, and toucheth vsus not. For we doe not with the Donatiſts ſhut vp Chriſts inheritance within the compaſſe of any place, as they did in Africke, neither ſay we yt Chriſt at any time hath loſt his in heritance, but we ſay, that Chriſt hath had alwaies, and hath ſtill his Church without reſtraint of place, whereſoeuer it pleaſeth him: neither doeth it remaine now onelyonly with a fewe rude Switzers, and in two or three corners beſides, as it pleaſeth you to ſpeake. For it is well ſeene, that diuerſe whole kingdomes, as England, Scotland, and Denmarke hauehave receiued our Religion, and that indeede it groweth ſo mightily in moſt places, that it maketh the ſtouteſt of you greatly feare, that ere it be lōg, your kingdome of the Pope will be greater in the weſt Indies, then in theſe parts.
Hauing done with vrging this probleme (which indeede fitteth you Papiſts better, then vsus, in that you tie Chriſtes inheritance to your Popes girdle) you tell your Reader (but you meane to proue it at leaſure) that theſe heretiques, that you hauehave talked on all this while, hauehave fortified their campe with as manie moe places, as wee alleadge: and therefore once againe you would hauehave a reaſon, why that notwithſtanding they ſhould bee counted heretiques, and not we? You make vsus anſwere, becauſe they did interpret them contrarie to the Churches doctrine: which you ſuppoſe, is the onelyonly anſwere we can giuegive. But I hauehave tolde you, that becauſe when there is queſtiō of truth, there is cōmonly alſo queſtiō of the church, our anſwere is, that their alleadging of them was hereticall, & ours true and right, as may be proued by the ſcriptures themſelues, and by the right rules of interpreting of them. But be it, that we anſwere as you imagine, what hauehave we loſt, or you gained thereby? This ſay you, that you hauehave no more right, then they, to be counted Catholiques, becauſe you alleadge them alſo contrarie to the Churches doctrine. Here againe you deceiue both your ſelfe and your Reader, with the ambiguity of the word Church. For if wee anſwere, that we reiect their allegations, for that they alleadged them contrarie to the Churches doctrine that then was: we by the Church, vnderſtand a ſound and ſincere church of Chriſt in poſſeſſion of ſound Religion, and not whatſoeuer Synagogue will entitle it ſelfe with the name of the Church, and ſo vnderunder the name of the Church warre againſt the true church. In which ſence onelyonly your Church (againſt whoſe doctrine wee alleadge them) hath the name of a church. And yet you, as though it muſt needes be graunted you, that your church is aſwell ye church of Chriſt, as that that was in their times, you make our fault and theirs one, becauſe we contrary yours, which is the church falſely ſo named: whereas they in theirs cōtraried the churches doctrine truely ſo tearmed. You muſt proue therefore your Church now, and that which was 1000. yeares ago, at leaſt, to be al one in doctrine (which you can neuer doe) before you can proue their fault and ours to be all one. Howſoeuer this vſe yet, you will make of the variety of opinions, and the alleadging of the Scriptures by theſe heretiques, that you wil not remooue from your Religion, or faith (which falſely you call ancient) for all the ſhrill noiſe of our Goſpell. Whereunto this onelyonly I reply, that if now (the diuerſity betwixt their dealing and ours herein ſhewed you, as it is) you that notwithſtanding perſiſt in this minde vponupon this ground, you therein ſhall ſhew your ſelues to bee ledde rather by will, then witte, or any ſound wiſedome.
But at laſt you giuegive ouer wandring any longer ſo farre abroad, for examples to this purpoſe, and you will talke (you ſay) but of the ſectes and heads of hereſies of this preſent time: who all likewiſe alleadge ſcripture, and condemne one another. And therefore, hauing reckoned vp Lutherans, Anabaptiſtes, Puritanes, Proteſtantes, Preciſians, Zwinglians, Caluiniſtes, Caeleſtes, Deiſtes, & Trini… ries, you would knowe of vsus, which of theſe you ſhould receiue. And to make your queſtion the harder to anſwere, you adde (ſaying) If we receiue ſome, and not all, they that are refuſed will thinke they hauehave wrong offered thē. For they hauehave as good ſtore of ſcripture well alleadged, as the reſt: and if all ſhould for this cauſe be receiued, then thereupon would followe a Babylonicall confuſion. This obiection, taken frō the variety of ſects and opinions in theſe daies, I hauehave ſo anſwered in anſwering to your fourth chapter, that thereby I hauehave made it moſt cleare, that (though you had as great ground for it as you pretend) yet all that variety neither can nor ought to preiudice any thing our Religion. And therefore vntounto that anſwere of mine hereunto, I muſt referre the reader both now and hereafter, whenſoeuer it commeth, for his ſatiſfaction: yet this here I would hauehave him further to note, that to make the number ſeeme the greater, you hauehave here reckoned vp them as different Sectes, & heades of hereſies, amongſt whom either there is full agreement, as betwixt them, whom you call Caluiniſts and Zwinglians, or but ſuch difference, as notwithſtanding they agree in the ſubſtantialleſt, and fundamentall points of Religion, as the Lutherans & Caluiniſts, the Proteſtants, & they whom you tearme Puritanes. Which differences if they be ſufficient with you to make different Sects, & ſeuerall heades of hereſies, then as many ſeuerall orders as there be amongſt you of your religious men, and women, and as many ſeuerall ſortes of ſchoolemen as you hauehave, differing amongſt themſelues, in queſtions of diuinitie, ſo manie ſeuerall Sectes there are amongſt you: all which would riſe to a marueilous long beadrole. And indeede he that conſidereth well theſe thinges, though hee ſhall finde you like Sampſons foxes tied togither by the tailes, with the thong of the Popes ſupremacie, yet otherwiſe hee ſhall and may moſt eaſily finde, that you are farre more iuſtly to bee charged, to nouriſh within your Synagogue of Rome, multitudes of ſects, and heades of hereſies then we, both for that you exceede infinitly in number and matters, and for that whereas ſome of ours, to our griefe, vnwillingly are tearmed by our enimies Lutherans, Caluiniſts, Zwinglians, &c. you delight and take pleaſure in your diſtinct titles of diuiſion, as to bee called Dominicans, Frāciſcans, Ieſuites &c. Secondly, there are ſome of theſe, which you here name as Caeleſtes, Deiſtes, & Trinitaries, and the Sect of the family of louelove (wherewith elswhere ſome of you charge vsus) who are far liker you then vsus, and hauehave rather ſprung vp amongſt you, and of you, thē of vsus. And this is certaine, that all theſe, our men hauehave beene more painefull to detect, and confute them, then euer were yours. Our anſwere therefore to your demande hereupon builded, is this, though all theſe alleadge ſcripture, yet neither alleadge they it aſwell as we, neither is there any remedy, but that you muſt and ought to receaue them, for the true mēbers of the Catholique church (howſoeuer others alleadge them) that alleadge them beſt & ſoundlieſt. But then, you will ſay, you are as farre of, as you were in the beginning, ſeeing eueryevery one will ſtād vponupon this, that he and his ſide alleadge them beſt, and therefore once againe you will reply & ſay, that to determine who doeth beſt alleadge them, is a thing ſo harde, that fewe ſhall be able to finde it out: and therefore in the ende you ſhall be driuen to thinke it neceſſary, that the Pope ſhould be iudge in this caſe, otherwiſe men ſhall neuer be at a certainty whom to follow. Hereunto I anſwere that the harder the matter is, the more paines men ought to take thereabout, ſeeing to know and finde the trueth, ſtandeth them ſo much vponupon: ſecondly, I ſay with S. Paul, that when you and all the world hauehave done what you can, there muſt be hereſies amongſt mē, that they which are approued amongſt thē may be knowen. 1. Cor. 11. Thirdly, how hard ſoeuer it ſeeme, yet by ſearching of the ſcriptures, & examining the allegations & interpretatiōs of them, by the rules of right interpreting (wc I before ſet downe) in humility of ſpirit, God will leade thē yt be his (how ſimple ſoeuer) at one time or other by the direction of his ſpirit, to finde out who they be, that ſoundlieſt hādle them. For he hath promiſed, If we ſeeke, we ſhall finde, and if we knocke it ſhal be opened vntounto vsus. Mat. 7.7. And as for the iudgement of the Pope, or any one certaine mā, or cōpany of mē, becauſe ye Lord in his wiſedome foreſawe what was in mā, & ſo how prone to erre: in this caſe he hath not appointed vsus any ſuch to run vntounto for the determining of this matter. And therfore it is intollerable preſumption for any ſuch to take vponupon thē, that ye Lord hath made thē ſuch iudges in this caſe, that they cannot erre. The miniſtry of men, conference with men, reading of mēs labours vponupon matters of Religion, & ſuch other good helps, wt an earneſt and hūble inuocation of the name of God, for the directiō of his ſpirit, are to be vſed carefully of eueryevery man, as he may, in this caſe But whē all commeth to all, we ſee no other, but yt it is the will & pleaſure of our God, rather to leaue vsus thus to be exerciſed in ſcearching the ſcriptures, & in trauelling by theſe meanes to finde out the truth, & to ſettle our ſelues therein, thē to ſend vsus for full reſolutiō to any one man or mē, leaſt ſo we ſhould after be deceiued through the errour of thoſe men, then we ſhall be this other way. Seeing therefore Chriſt tooke this way himſelfe, both with the deuil himſelfe, & wt his chaplaines, both to confute their errours & erroneous interpretations, & to confirme the trueth, by ſearching the ſcriptures: and neither he nor his Apoſtles ſent vsus either by word or their example, to the high Prieſts then, or vntounto any other for reſolutiō of the church or trueth, this way as the beſt & only way we thinke all Chriſtiās bound to take. And in ſo doing, let not any man deſpaire, but that through the goodnes of God, he ſhalbe inabled to trie the ſpirits, & to diſcerne, who amongſt all other alleadge the ſcriptures ſoundlieſt. For we ſee it is the faſhion of our God, to reueile his trueth and the miſteries thereof, to thoſe that be his; how ſimple ſoeuer, when he doeth conceale & hide them from the great men of the world. Mat. 11.1. Cor. 1.
But you ſay, If this may and muſt be atteined by the grace of the holy ghoſt, obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatiō of his name, how chanceth it, that ſince Luther (for no ancienter you ſay, (though it be neuer ſo falſe) our Religiō is) you hauehave not obteined that holy ghoſt, to ende your hoat contentions and debates amōgſt your ſelues, that ſo you might be at vnity yet amōgſt your ſelues? This is ſpoken, as though it muſt needes follow, that either we hauehave not faithfully praied vntounto God for his ſpirit, or els, if we hauehave, that then of neceſſity there neither could be, nor would be, any difference of opinions, and contentions at all amongſt vsus. If you be of this mind, then ye manifold differences, ſchiſmes, ſects, & varieties of opinions, yt hauehave beene, and yet are, in your church (as I hauehave noted cap. 4.) argueth in your Logicke, that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghoſt. But indeede your argumēt is naught. For it appeareth (Ioh. 17.) that Chriſt himſelfe praied for vnity amongſt his Apoſtles, and all that ſhould beleeue their doctrine; & no doubt of it, he was heard in that he praied for. Heb. 5.7. and obteined, for his heauēly father would deny him nothing: and yet you hauehave heard (cap 4.) after this there were varieties of opinions, and hoate contentions betwixt ſome of them, that doubtles of both parts were within the compaſſe of Chriſtes praier. And therefore that praier of Chriſt, and the prayers of his ſeruants made to that ende, are to be vnderſtoode to take place, and to be effectuall, in that there is ſo much vnity amongſt the true members of the Church atteined thereby, as is ſufficient to holde them togither in the communion of ſaints: which is, if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation, and fundamentall points of Religion, though otherwiſe there be differences and h…at contentions ſometimes amongſt them. And it may not be thought (as you ſeeme to take it) that ſuch prayers either are not effectually made, or els there muſt followe thereupon ſimply an vniuerſall accorde in all things. For then Chriſtes prayer was not effectuall, in that after, Paul and Barnabas were at a…arre Act. 15. &c. That vnity, that you ſpeake of, the Church may ſtriue for here, but ſhe is not to make her account to atteine vntounto it, before ſhe come in heauen and bee maried to her huſband there. And ſo much vnity there is betwixt vsus, and thoſe whom we count members of Chriſtes Church with vsus, as that, though there be ſome variety of opinions, and therefore alſo contention but too much, yet we ioyne ſo togither here in the foundation, and other moſt principal points of our Religion, yt we doubt not, but the Lord hath heard our praiers, and graunted vsus the ſpirit of vnity ſo farre forth, as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity, notwithſtanding the iarres that otherwiſe in the meane time, to trie vsus withall, be foūd amongſt vsus. You know we praie daily, that Gods will may be done in earth, as it is in heauen (and ſo doe you, or you are to blame) and herein we hope, we are heard: and yet ſimply we neuer found, nor ſhall, as long as the world ſtandeth, the will of God ſo done here, as it is in heauen. For continually there is diſobediēce to his will here in one thing or other, one way or other, euen amongſt the beſt, but in that, in ſuch meaſure, as God ſeeth this fit to be obteined here, he granteth it, we are notwithſtanding to thinke our prayers effectuall. Chriſt himſelfe praied (Iohn. 17.15) to deliuer his church from euill, and yet though that prayer was heard, in that God ſo farre forth preſerueth his church from euill; as he ſeeth it expedient for the ſtate thereof here, we ſee daily that many are the troubles, and euils that the poore church is encombred withall. And therefore (to conclude) you muſt vnderſtād, that the faithfull praiers of Gods ſaints are to be accounted effectuall, though the thing they pray for, be not obteined in full perfection here, as long as ſo much here is obteined, as the Lorde ſeeth to bee neceſſary and conuenient for the eſtate of his ſeruantes. So that notwithſtanding the differences amongſt vsus, you might and would (if you had the grace) ioyne rather with vsus in our Religion, then continue in that wherein you are; the profeſſours whereof are torne a ſunder with moe and greater differences, then the churches that receaue ours are: howſoeuer you deceiue the ſimple with the vizarde of vnity, in that you ioyne together vnderunder your Pope againſt the trueth.