Answer to John De Albines, Answer to schismatics and heretics
A ſhort anſwere to a new offer, not publiſhed at the firſt, when D. Fulke and Maſter Carter anſwered the 22. demands, whereunto it is now annexed: the ground and matter whereof is, an enumeration of ſix certaine and aſſured ſignes and tokens (as the offerer calleth them) of Antichriſtians, falſe prophets, heretiques and ſchiſmatiques, mentioned in diuerſe places of the ſcripture.
COncerning theſe ſixe ſignes (welbeloued) this is his offer, that if by the learned proteſtāt they can be proued, more aptly and truely to agree to him, & his fellowes, of the commō knowen catholick church of Chriſt, thē vntounto the proteſtāts of ſo many, ſundry and diuers ſects, and congregations, that then he wil ſubmit, yeelde & recant, and not before. Learned proteſtant I take my ſelfe to be none, howbeit, finding, as I did, when I tooke firſt in hand to anſwer Iohn de Albines former diſcourſe, that the publiſher thereof, had therewithall publiſhed, not only the offer of a proud papiſt, to a learned proteſtant, cōſiſting of 22. challenges or demaunds, long ago anſwered by the men aboue named, but alſo wt this new addition of theſe ſix ſignes; and then not vnderſtanding, though it had beene thus abroad many years amōgſt vsus in Engliſh, that any learned or vnlearned had vouchſafed to anſwer it, though I thought it needles to anſwer againe the offer of 22. demaunds, ſo wel anſwered by the foreſaied mē before, that the authour thereof, neuer ſince had pleaſure to reply, I thought it yet not amiſſe, vntounto my former anſwer to Iohn de Albine, to annex this ſhort anſwer thereunto.
His firſt ſigne of ſuch as hee ſpeaketh of, hee ſaieth is, their departure from the cōmon knowen catholick Church of Chriſt, wherin they were baptized, & firſt receaued chriſtiā faith and religiō, and this to be ſuch a ſigne, he proueth out of the ſecond chapter of S. Iohns firſt Epiſtle, where he ſpeaking of ſuch, ſaieth, they departed frō vsus, but they were not of vsus, for if they had, they would ſtil hauehave cōtinued with vsus. Wherupon he thinketh, that foraſmuch (as hee ſaieth) wee cannot deny, but that wee are the men that hauehave thus departed from their common knowen catholicke Church, faith and religion, wherein we were firſt baptized, and that wee cannot ſay that they hauehave ſo departed from vsus, they ſtill remaining in the ſame church, faith and Religion, that they firſt receaued, that of neceſſity we muſt be enforced to graunt, that this ſigne agreeth to vsus, and not to them. This (good Chriſtian) that he hath ſaied were of fome force, if he, any, or all his fellowes togither, were euer able to proue, that they, their church, faith and Religion were ſuch, as Saint Iohn ſpake of, when he ſo taxed men for their departure therfrom: but ſeeing onelyonly moſt beggerly all the packe of them, this being the maine queſtion betwixt them and vsus, alwaies take this for graunted them, euen for their bolde impudent and importunate begging of it, which we will neuer graunt them nor they ſhall euer be able to winne at our hands, all that he hath ſaied herein, is childiſh and vaine. For we are alwaies moſt ready and willing to ioyne this iſſue with them, for and about al the controuerſies amongſt vsus; that if we be not able by due conference, of the Catholique and Apoſtolique doctrine, taught by the Apoſtles & Apoſtolicke men, in the primitiue church, teſtified and extant in their owne vndoubted writings, with ours, that we are of the ſame common knowen Catholique Church, faith and Religion, that they were, and that the Romiſh Church in the thinges, wherein wee differ from them, is cleane departed from them, and from the church of Chriſt, her faith and Religion that then was: that then we will (as he ſaieth) moſt willingly ſubmit our ſelues, yeelde and recant. And I hope in anſwering of Iohn de Albine, vponupon occaſion, in ſundry places, I hauehave ſo ſhewed the agreeableneſſe of our faith and Religion with the Apoſtles, and the manifolde diſagreements of the Church of Rome, that nowe is, from them, and the ancient church of Rome, planted by them, as that eueryevery one, euen thereby, ſufficiently may ſee, that not wee, but they, are the men, that Saint Iohn ſpake of, that hauehave departed from the true Church of Chriſt, faith, and Religion; and that therefore this ſigne doeth ſo farre better agree to Papiſts then to vsus, that if this offerer will be as good as his worde, hee muſt preſentlie ſubmit himſelfe, yeelde and recant. In the meane time, the manifeſt contrariety betwixt their doctrine and Chriſts, and his Apoſtles, made manifeſt vntounto vsus by the view of ye ſcriptures thēſelues, and the notorious difference betwixt their churches practiſe now, and the ancient churches of Rome for ſixe hundreth yeares after Chriſt at the leaſt, made likewiſe euident vntounto vsus by all ſound monuments of antiquity, hauehave aſſured vsus, that in reſpect of them, and their Romiſh Synagogue, in theſe later daies (to embolden vsus to doe as we hauehave) God from heauen by an Angel ſaied vntounto vsus, go out of her my people, leaſt you be pertakers of her ſinnes, and ſo receaue of her puniſhments. Apoc. 18. verſ. 4. And therefore as it was lawfull for Abraham, to follow the Lordes calling, Gen 12. to depart out of his owne cuntrey Chaldea, and to forſake the abhominatiō thereof; as it was wiſedome for Lot, at the admonition of the Angels, to go out of Sodom, Gen. 19. and as it was neceſſary, that Chriſt and his, ſhould ſeparate thē ſelues from the high Prieſts, Scribes, and Phariſees, and their errours and ſuperſtitions, though they then, & their followers bragged that they were the people of God & his church: ſo was it meete & requiſite for vsus, to depart, as we hauehave, from their Popiſh church, and the popery thereof. And as for our receauing our baptiſme amongſt them, that bindeth vsus no more to hold cōmunion wt thē ſtill, in their falſe & erronious religion, then the receauing of circumciſion bound Chriſt & his Apoſtles, & thoſe of the Iewes that beleued by their doctrine, to continue felowſhip with the blind and ſuperſtitious ſynagogue of the hard harted Iewes or the receiuing of baptiſme in former times at the hands of the ancient heretiques the Arriās, or any other ſuch like, bound thē that were baptiſed by ſuch, y• they might not ſeparate themſelues frō ſuch, to returne home againe to the true catholique church of Chriſt. Againe, if they thinke that men are bound alwaies to liue and die in that Religion, whereof they were, that baptized them, why doe they labour by their Ieſuits & ſeminaries to ſeduce to their Religion, ſuch as we hauehave baptized? But yet to touch them more neerely, for all this brag of their ſtill continuing in the faith and Religion they firſt receaued, let euen their owne Baptiſme, and their faith and Religion that they after profeſſe, bee compared togither, and the contrary will appeare. For they being al baptized in the name onelyonly of the Father, the Sonne & the holy Ghoſt, as it is well knowen they are, thereby they are bounde onelyonly to beleeue in this Trinity in Vnity, and Vnitie in Trinity, and yet afterwardes all the ſort of them, notwithſtanding the Apoſtles Creede, and all other ancient Creeds teach them the ſame, become plaine apoſtataes from this faith, in beleeuing in a number, both of perſons and thinges, that without blaſphemy they cannot count either God the Father, God the Sonne, or God the holy Ghoſt. Proofe and moſt palpable demonſtration hereof is their beliefe in their owne merits, merits of others, Popes pardons, halowed water & other halowed things, & their beliefe in, and therefore praying vntounto, Saints & Angels. In ye wonderful prouidēce of God doubtles, this forme of baptiſme, & theſe creeds were preſerued & continued amongſt thē, not only to make it euen thereby euident (whatſoeuer any of thē brag to the contrary neuer ſo oft) that they are ye men yt daily depart both frō the faith of Chriſt, firſt taught them & their forefathers, and after particulerly in their baptiſme cō firmed to eueryevery one of them: but alſo to make thē before both God & man, without all excuſe; of their ſo groſſe apoſtacy from the ſame, notwithſtāding. Wheras they know, & all the world els, yt knoweth vsus, know, yt we ſimply continue in this faith, firſt deliuered vntd vsus briefly by ye holy catholique church in theſe creeds, & daily ſealed vntounto vsus in our baptiſme, & that euen for that it is, that we are ſo hated, and perſecuted of them, that with them we will not run out frō this church and faith, to beleeue in a 1000. things that are not God, as they doe. And therefore, theſe things conſidered, by this note they are proued to be the Antichriſtian falſe prophets, heretiques, & ſchiſmatiques, that he ſpeaketh of, and not we.
His ſecond ſure marke, ſigne and token of falſe prophets &c. is (ſaieth he) that they being departed from the catholique church, doe of thēſelues, & of their owne authority, without warrant, being not ſent, ſet vp a new goſpell, a new faith and Religion, and ſo by preaching a newe doctrine, aſſemble and ſet vp a newe church and congregation. And to proue this, Heb. 5. Rom. 10. and Exod. 4. are quoted, whence onelyonly we may learne to this purpoſe, that none may take vponupon them an office in Gods houſe, without lawfull calling and warrant from him. Yet hereupon, as though theſe were moſt pregnant places to proue, that to be neceſſary to a lawefull calling, which the learned proteſtant can neuer proue to bee in our calling, he promiſeth likewiſe to yeelde, and to recant, when wee ſhall bee able to proue our iuſt and due vocation, ordinarily or extraordinarily, to proceede of God and not onelyonly of mē. By his owne words, in deſcribing this note or marke, two things muſt concurre to the making of it, namely, the preaching of a newe Religion or Goſpell, and the doing of it without a iuſt and due vocation from God: and yet in the prouing it to be ſuch a marke, & in the applying it to vsus, he forgetteth altogither the former, & maketh only ſhew of proofe for the later. Belike his own cōſcience tolde him, that howſoeuer it was an eaſie matter to inſinuate, that our religion was new, that yet he was not able ſo much as to make any ſhew, that he could proue it ſo to be indeed. And touching the other, howſoeuer the places quoted by him, ſerue to proue a lawful calling or ſending by God to be neceſſary for and to all ſuch, as ſhal take any office vponupon them in his Church, yet they proue not at al, that there is any thing needful to the prouing of our vocation to be ſuch, wanting in ours, neither doeth he name any thing required in any of theſe places to be in ours, which he could ſay we wanted: which it is likely he would not hauehave omitted to hauehave done, if he had ſeene, that with any probability he might hauehave done it. And therefore any man may ſee, that euen in this ſigne (as in the former) his onelyonly ground is a falſe ſuppoſition, that thoſe things muſt needs be graunted him all, which both moſt iuſtly and confidently we alwaies deny. For without any proofe or ſhadow of proofe, he in one periode aſſumeth three things againſt vsus, moſt vntruely & ſlanderouſly, (as at large in ſundry places of my anſwere to Albine I hauehave made it manifeſt) namely, that we are gone out of the true catholicke Church, that wee hauehave ſet vp a new faith and religion, and that we hauehave aſſembled a new Church and congregation Yea (chriſtian reader) if thou wouldeſt but vouchſafe, by the table annexed vntounto this anſwere of mine, to turne to the places in the ſaied anſwere, where theſe points be handled, the antiquity of our church and religion, the newnes of popery, and the contrariety betwixt the Romiſh church, that now is, & ye ſcriptures, fathers and councels, in the true catholicke church of Chriſt, & the lawfulnes of our calling to the miniſtry and the vnlawfulnes of their prieſthood and vocation thereunto; & vntounto other prelacies amongſt them, and when thou haſt found them, to read ouer wt out partiality, what I hauehave writen hereof, I doubt not but thereby thou wouldeſt ſee, not onelyonly, that he vniuſtly hath here charged vsus wt theſe three faults, but ye moſt iuſtly we may charge thē wt thē al. And therfore therunto referring thee for further anſwere vntounto this threefold charge of his in this place, vponupon that which there thou ſhalt finde (I hope) with mee thou wilt conclude, that this beeing a marke and a moſt certaine ſigne of antichriſtian heretiques (as he ſaieth) yt it ſtandeth faire vponupon thē, and not vponupon vsus, & therfore he ſhould recāt.
The third ſigne & tokē, yt the offerer talketh of, is, that ſuch, ouer and aboue the properties touched in the two former, doe preach and teach contentiouſly and ſeditiouſly, againſt the doctrine before time, taught of the common knowen Catholicke Church of Chriſt, as namely (ſaieth hee) againſt the ſacraments of Chriſts Church by a flat denial of many of thē, againſt the real preſence of Chriſts body in the holy euchariſt, againſt the bleſſed ſacrifice of the maſſe propitiatory both for the liue and the dead, againſt penance & the worthy fruits thereof, by faſting, watching, and praier & al ſtraightnes of life, againſt vowes, inuocation of Saints, praier for ſoules departed, and finally againſt the Church it ſelfe, flatly denying, that Chriſt hath here vponupon earth any ſpouſe or viſible Church to be heard ſpeak, perceiued or ſeene. The ground of which ſigne, he maketh that ſaying Hebrues 13, be you not caried away with diuers and ſtrange doctrines: ſo tearmed of the Apoſtle (as he expoundeth him) becauſe they agree not, but are contrary to the receiued and common knowen doctrine of Chriſts holy catholicke Church: whereupon he groweth to his concluſion, that when the learned proteſtant ſhal be able to proue, that they and not we, are by our preaching of theſe ſtrange doctrines the raiſers vp of theſe ſtrifes and contentions, then he wil recant and not before. Whereunto I anſwere, that vnderſtanding by the common knowen catholicke Church, the true Church of Chriſt, which is knowen and acknowledged ſo to be alwaies of him and his faithfull members, then we graūt that this is a right marke of ſuch as he would hauehave it to be a marke of, and that worthely in the thirteenth of the Hebrues, all men are warned to take heed, that they be not caried away with diuers and ſtrange doctrines, from that, which ſhe hath vniuerſally taught and receiued. But ſo taking the common knowen catholicke Church of Chriſt▪ and not otherwiſe, I ſay it, and hauehave proued it in my anſwere to Albine, that the Church of Rome, that now is, hath too long and doeth ſtill, not onelyonly cōtentiouſly and ſeditiouſly, but alſo furiouſly, tirannically, bloudely, and eueryevery way antichriſtianly, preach againſt the doctrine before time taught by her, and commonly receaued and profeſſed by hers, touching the true vſe of the law and the goſpell, the office of Chriſt & faith in him, the doctrine of faith and workes, and of praier and the ſacramentes, and almoſt of all other principall pointes of the true Chriſtian religion. And thus I am ſure hee muſt vnderſtand the church of Chriſt, if either he would hauehave this to be a certaine ſigne of heretiques, or to be thought rightly to hauehave expounded the 13. to the Hebrewes. And therefore vnderſtanding by the common knowen catholique Church of Chriſt, that which he ſhould, this marke is euident vponupon them, and not vponupon vsus. But if by the common knowen catholicke church of Chriſt, that hee talketh of here and alwaies elſe, he vnderſtand (as it is apparent that hee doeth) their Roman church that now is, moſt beggerly ſtill hee beggeth that almes, that neuer an honeſt and wiſe man in the world would giuegive him. For in all theſe points here named by him, that Synagogue a long time hath taught, and doeth ſtill, ſo contrary to the true and chaſt ſpouſe of Chriſt, that though nether ſeditiouſly nor contentiouſly, yet vehemently and earneſtly, it is the part of all ſkilfull, painfull and faithfull miniſters of the Lord, to cry out againſt her, and her ſo doing. And thus onelyonly hauehave we and doe we, labour to manifeſt vntounto the world their corruptiō in doctrine in theſe points, leaſt thereby to their perdition, they ſhould be ſeduced by them. Otherwiſe, whatſoeuer he ſaieth, neither he nor all his faction, ſhall euer he able to proue againſt vsus, that we either deny any thing, or hold otherwiſe of any point here reckoned vp by him, then we hauehave moſt ſound and good warrant for, both out of the ſcriptures, and out of the ancienteſt and ſoundeſt monuments of antiquity. But where as he ſaith, that we flatly deny that Chriſt hath here vponupon earth any ſpouſe, or viſible church to bee heard ſpeake, perceaued or ſeene, hee ſhamefully and vntruely reporteth y• of vsus. OnelyOnly cōcerning the viſibility or not viſibility of. Chriſts church, this wee holde and teach, that who be the right members thereof, whereof properly ſhe doeth conſiſt, it is not diſcerneable by humane ſence, but knowen onelyonly vntounto God, and vntounto thoſe to whom God giueth ſpirituall ſences to diſcerne it withall: but if otherwiſe by the church of Chriſt here vponupon earth, be vnderſtoode generally all thoſe that by outwarde profeſſion ſeeme vntounto men to be thereof, then we hold and confeſſe, that Chriſt hath alwaies had here vpō earth, ſince the beginning, and wil hauehave to the ende, a viſible ſpouſe and church to be both heard ſpeake, perceiued & ſeene, though not alwaies alike, nor of al ſorts & kinde of men, as I hauehave ſhewed at large in the firſt and fourth chapters of my anſwere to Albine. The onelyonly thing that we deny is, that it alwaies hath beene, and euer muſt be ſo viſible and apparent, both for multitude and gouernment, that eueryevery one ſhould be able therby not only to diſcerne it, but frō time to time, downe frō Chriſt to the ende of the world, to name the principall perſons, by whoſe orderly ſucceſſion one to another wtout interruption, it hath bene cō tinued in one place or other. Now hereupon to infer, that wee ſimply deny it to be heard, ſeene or perceiued, argueth, that they that doe ſo, are growen ſo groſſe, that they can neither heare, ſee nor perceiue, that there is any difference betwixt the maner of being of a thing; & the ſimple being therof. Iohn, that neuer taught that the Church of Chriſt here vpō earth ſhould neither be heard, ſeen or perceiued, yet teacheth Re. 12. yt ſhe would be driuē by perſecution of the dragō, into the wildernes, where for a time, in cōpariſon that ſhe was before, ſhe ſhould be hiddē. Chriſt, yt hath taught vsus, that hel gates ſhal neuer preuaile againſt his church Mat. 16. yet foreſheweth, that towards his ſecōd cōming, true faith ſhould hardly be found vpō earth Luke 18. And doe we not read 2 Theſſalonians. 2. and 1. Timothy 4. to that end, that before that day, there ſhall be a great departing from the faith, which by that which we read Reuelations 17 and 18. we may vnderſtand ſhal be ſo great and ſo farre preuaile, that the whore of Babylon, there figuring vntounto vsus Antichriſt and his kingdome, ſhall hauehave vniuerſality and all outward pompe that may be, ſo on her ſide, that ſhee ſhall make kings and people, yea all nations, drunke with the wine of her fornications. During the fulfilling of which propheſies, if it bee hard for ſome, either to heare or ſee the Church, or to vnderſtand where ſhee is, ſo that they cannot name the perſons ſucceſſiuely, that ſhe conſiſteth of, no maruell. For diſtance of time and place, and ignorance, or vnfaithfulneſſe in Croniclers, ioyned with a ſpeciall care, that Antichriſt would alwaies, by all likelyhoode hauehave, to keepe from men, all meanes to make thē to hauehave knowledge of theſe things, leaſt therby in the end he ſhould fall into his cōſumption; in reſpect of ſundry former times and vsus that liue now, might make this impoſſible. And yet he that ſhould ſay ſo, doeth not ſimply ſay, as he here chargeth vsus. But Gods name be bleſſed for it, the Church yet, was neuer ſo driuen into the wilderneſſe by the dragon, or oppreſſed by Antichriſt, but as I hauehave ſhewed in my fourth Chapter of my foreſaied anſwere to Albine, ſome hauehave ſo heard, ſeene and perceiued where ſhe was, and who were her true mēbers at al times, that there was neuer time or ſtate of the Church ſo bad, but yt we are able to nāe ſome of her frēds and where they liued or died in the profeſſion of her trueth againſt antichriſtian abhominations. As for ye other points here reckoned vp by him (gētle reader) though he would make thee beleeue yt they are ſuch, as in eueryevery point (as they teach thē now) hauehave alwaies before beene taught of the true Catholicke church of Chriſt, it is nothing ſo: as in great part I hauehave ſhewed in anſwering of Albine, & as others thorowly & vniuerſally hauehave ſhewed of them all, in ſeueral bookes writen againſt them, for their Antichriſtiā doctrine therein. Howbeit leaſt by his words, in the meane time whiles thou getteſt leaſure, to peruſe what we hauehave writen, cōcerning theſe points, thou ſhouldeſt cōceiue worſe of our doctrine, thē in any ſhew we deſerue: vnderſtand, that we preach againſt none of Chriſts ſacraments, neither doe we deny any ſacrament of his, in that ſence to be a ſacrament, that he appointed it, neither doe we deny Chriſts reall, true & moſt certain preſence in the euchariſt, to the ſoule of ye right receiuer, onelyonly a groſſe preſence of his body, to the mouth of eueryevery receauer, fancied by thē cōtrary both to ſcripture & the nature of a ſacramēt, & of Chriſt himſelfe, is the preſence that there we deny. Indeed we as zealouſly as we can, preach againſt their maſſe, denying it to be any propitiatory ſacrifice, either for quicke or dead, much leſſe for both, becauſe we hauehave learned out of the epiſtle to the Hebrewes, that only Chriſt is cōſecrate of his father, as the fit Prieſt of the new teſtament, in his owne perſon once for all, to offer propitiatory ſacrifice for the redemption of mankind, & that we learne by the words of the inſtitution of this ſacrament, that it was neuer inſtituted, to repeate that, but with faith and thankeſgiuing to make a commemoration thereof, and rather to offer and deliuer Chriſt to vsus, thē to offer him againe to his father. If by penance, he vnderſtand repentance, we neither preach againſt it nor againſt any worthy fruit thereof. For we moſt earneſtly call for both, but if by penance, be vnderſtood, either voluntary or enioyned penance (as they commonly take it) ioyned with an opinion, thereby either to ſatiſfie for ſinnes paſt, or to merit at Gods hand, becauſe we know, that ſuch penance, and all the fruits thereof are abhominable before God, becauſe thereby Chriſt is robbed of that honour of a ful and perfect ſauiour, in & by himſelfe alone, that is due vntounto him, then we graunt (as we hauehave iuſt cauſe) we preach againſt it. Otherwiſe, faſting, ſtraightnes of life, watching, and lawfull vowes, to make vsus more ready & feruent in holy prayer, we commend and vrge. Indeed praying to Saints, becauſe we hauehave neither example, cōmandement, nor promiſe in Gods book to encourage vsus thereunto, but all to the contrary, we condemne as groſſe idolatry: and likewiſe prayer for ſoules departed, as they vſe it, to relieue foules in purgatory, for the ſame reaſons, and ſundry other, we preach againſt. But what we teach of theſe two points, and what not, and what reaſons we hauehave for our ſo doing, and how quite voide they be of all ground for theirs, I refer thee to the 37 Chapter of my anſwere to Albine, where I hauehave at large, ſhewed theſe things. And thus much therfore for this 3 ſigne.
The next is, to bring a ſchiſme into the Church, cōtrary to Pauls exhortation 1. Cor, 1. and that ſuch a ſchiſme, as wherby, not onelyonly one member ſhall be ſeperated from an other, but the whole myſtical body from the true head Chriſt Ieſus: which we to hauehave done, in ſeperating our ſelues from their Church, & not they, hee aſſumeth, and ſo concludeth when the learned proteſtant can ſhew the cō trary, that he wil recant and not before. Still thus thou maieſt ſee (good reader) that this man is no changling. For vnles that be grā ted him, which is the maine point betwixt vsus, that their Church is the true Church of Chriſt, & their doctrine the ſound catholicke faith and religion, he hath no ground or foundation, for any thing he ſaieth. For he cannot be ſo ignorant as to imagine, that eueryevery one ſtraight is authour of ſuch a ſchiſme, as he here ſpeaketh of, that by doctrine draweth others from eueryevery ſociety or company, inueſting themſelues with the name of the Church, and bragging that they hauehave the trueth. For what would he then make of Chriſt and his Apoſtles, who in their time drew ſo many after them from holding any longer cōm…tion with the Synagogue of the Iewes, that then, I am ſure, bragged as confidently of both theſe, as this man and his fellowes doe now? Or what would he ſay to thoſe anciēt catholicks after Liberius time, that when Arrianiſme had in great part ouer run the world, and the Arrians for many yeeres togither bragged thēſelues to be the onelyonly … catholicks, diſgracing thē that were ſo indeed with the name of Omouſians, that yet, (though they had got both biſhops and emperours ſo many and ſo faſt of their opinion, that they had in ten ſeuerall councels goe ſentence of their ſide) ceaſed not labouring and traueling, vntill they had drawen men againe to breake from them, and to ioine with the poore perſecuted & contempt the number, that then yet perſecuted in the trueth? I am ſure they … not for ſhame for all this, count either Chriſt and his Apoſtles, or theſe ancient catholicks; antichriſtian heretickes or ſchiſmatiques. And our drawing of mē by our doctrine now, in theſe later daies from them, is nothing elſe in trueth, but an imitating, as nigh as we can, theſe renoumed and vndoubted good preſidents & examples, that ſo, the kingdome of Antichriſt according to Saint Pauls propheſie, might fal into conſumption 2. Theſſalonians, 2 and that great Babylon might yet at lēgth (as it was reuealed vntounto Ioh. Reuelations cap. 14.) fall and come downe. For not onelyonly we ſaw, that the Church of Rome had made a ſchiſme, but ſuch an apoſtaſie, euen in the fundamentall points of Chriſtian religion, from Chriſt and his Church, that there was no remedy, but that we muſt breake of from her, as we did, or elſe we could neuer hauehave communiō indeed in Chriſt with his true Church. Though therefore we know, and at the firſt knew, that peace, vnity, and concord, were pretious things, and by al lawfull meanes to be laboured for, yet knowing withall, as we doe, & did, that it is vnity in verity, and not in errour & impiety, wt Chriſt & not wt Antichriſt, that is ſo much to be ſet by, blame vsus not, for chuſing rather according to theſe good exāples, to hauehave war wt men, then wt God, & diſcord wt Antichriſt and al hes bread, then wt Chriſt and his members. We graūt them therfore, that to bring into the Church, ſuch a ſchiſme, as ſhal make diuiſion not onelyonly amōgſt Chriſts mēbers, but alſo of the body from the head, is indeed an vndoubted ſigne of antichriſtian heretickes: but wheras he taketh this for graūted, that this we hauehave done, in departing frō thē as we hauehave: that we deny. For we teach men to hold, & hold our ſelues; that faith & religion (as we are alwaies ready to proue by the canonical ſcriptures of the old and new teſtament) that alwaies the true Church of Chriſt hath held, and therfore which when hardly both holdeth the liuely members amongſt themſelues is vnity, and alſo knitteth thē and their head Chriſt ſo faſt together, as that no popiſh or antichriſtian tiranny, ſhall euer be able to ſeuer them. And howeſoeuer this proude challenge… thought wt … impoſſible thing for the learned proteſtant, to proue that they hauehave brought into the Church, ſuch a ſchiſme as hee ſpeaketh of, I the vnlearnedſt often thouſande, doubt not, that I am very well able to doe it. For this is moſt certaine and cleare, Ieſus Chriſt the Sauiour of the worlde indeede, is at this point, beeing eueryevery waie ſo able and willing as he did, in his owne perſon, and by himſelfe alone, to go through with the office of a moſt perfect Sauiour of mankinde, that either ſo hee muſt bee beleeued in, and truſted vntounto for that matter, or elſe hee taketh himſelfe antichriſtianlie robbed of that … and glory, that is due vntounto him, and therefore wil be no part of a ſauiour at all to ſuch. That this is moſt true appeareth, becauſe it is writed, that God is ſo iealouſe of his owne honour and glory, that hee wil not abide, that any ſhould therein bee pertaker with him, or rob him of any io…t therof. Eſay. 42. that in him all thinges are already prepared, Matthew the twenty two, that his name is the onelyonly name whereby commeth ſaluation, Actes. 4. that hee is foreign and foreign, Reu. 1. that he is the authour & finiſher of our faith, Heb. 12. that by one offering he hath conſecrated for euer thoſe that are ſanctified, Heb. 10. that he is able to ſaue perfectly, thoſe that come vntounto God by him, He. 7. that as there is but one God, ſo there is but one mediatour betwixt God and man, the man Chriſt Ieſus, 1. Tim. 2. and that S. Paul moſt confidently tolde the Galathians, that if with that opinion that the falſe Apoſtles had taught them they would be circumciſed, Chriſt ſhould profit them, nothing at all, they were falne from grace, Gal. 5. And yet notwithſtanding, the moſt cleare and plaine euidence of theſe ſcriptures, and ſundry other places to the like effect, ſo giuen is the church of Rome that now is, and hath beene a long time, to ſpoile Chriſt of a great part of this ſpecial honor & glory, that is due vntounto him, that it can abide nothing in the world worſe, then that men ſhould he driuen by the ſchoolemaſter the law, out of themſelues quite, in Chriſt fully and freely, ſoly and wholy by faith, to ſeeke for their iuſtification here, and ſaluation hereafter. And therefore in it, that in the deepe policy of Sathan, to blunt the edge of the law, that it hauehave not this force to breake and make contrite the heart of man, with the ougly ſight of his owne infinite ſinnes and puniſhments due vntounto him for the ſame, to driue him to hunger, and thirſt after that effectuall iuſtification and ſaluation, offered vntounto men by the goſpell in Chriſt, they teach that man hath free-will to good, that concupiſcence or the firſt motions to ſinne, riſing in man not conſented vntounto, are no ſinne, that many ſinnes, euen for their owne littlenes, are ve…iall, that by good deedes man may ſatiſfied God for his miſdeedes, that man may fulfill the law, yea that man may hauehave workes of ſupererogation, more then hee needes for his owne ſaluation, and that men by their workes maie merit a great part of their owne ſaluation, yea hauehave merits both before iuſtification, flowing from their pure natural faculties and powers, to prouoke GOD to thinke it congruum, that is, meete and conuenient, that euen therefore hee ſhould beſtow his grace vponupon them, and after merits de condigno, that euē for their very worthines, deſerue an euerlaſting reward of bliſſe at Gods hand, both for themſelues and others. And when they would ſeeme to be come vntounto Chriſt and to beleeue in him, yet in no caſe, wil they truſt to him alone, and that that hee hath done and ſtill doeth for them, but then his ſufferinges and their owne, his merits and their owne, and their frendes, his ſacrifice and their owne in their maſſe, his mediation and the mediation of Saints and angels, and an hundreth things els, euen childiſh and rediculous, for the matter of ſaluation, muſt be truſted vntounto. That it is thus, all the world ſeeth, and they themſelues in printed bookes ſtand vponupon it, that it muſt be thus, and that we are heretiques, becauſe we will not let them alone, in thus apparelling themſelues, their frends, and their toies, with the ſpoiles of our Chriſt, and ſo their very glory, is their ſhame. A Chriſt that is ſo baſe minded, in the office of iuſtifying and ſauing of mens ſoules, thus to be iumbled and ioined, with ſo many partners and helpers, is a Chriſt of their owne deuiſing, ſuch an one doubtles, as we can heare no news of, either in old or new teſtamēt. And therefore out of all queſtion, they ſhall finde, that whiles they run a madding after this fanſied new Chriſt of their owne, the old true Chriſt will profit them nothing at all, and that they are quite fallen from grace. No man whoſe eies God hath opened aright, either to vnderſtand the law or the goſpel, but ſeeing and knowing theſe things to be true of them, he muſt needs thinke and bee reſolued, that popery is euen that myſtery of iniquity, that Saint Paul ſpeaketh of 2. Theſſ. 2. and that the papiſts be flat, thoſe flaſe teachers that Saint Peter ſpeaketh of 2. Epiſtle chap. 3. Which priuily ſhould bring in damnable hereſies, euen denying the Lorde that hath bought them, and ſo bring vponupon themſelues ſwift damnation, whom yet many ſhould follow, and by whom the way of trueth ſhould bee euill ſpoken of &c. It is needfull therefore, I would thinke, eſpecialy conſidering, how earneſt Saint Peter is there to perſwade men to ſhun ſuch, for vsus to leaue them and forſake them, as we hauehave: the thing which in this behalfe we hauehave eſpecially to mourne for, is, that we forſooke them no ſooner.
Howbeit, though the better to countenance their Church and religion, and to proue vsus in thus forſaking of them, to hauehave brought in ſuch a ſchiſm, as he talketh of, he would make thee (chriſtian reader) beleeue, that all the world were at vnity with them in their faith & and falſe bragge, as if thou readeſt the fourth chapter of my anſwere to Albine, and the 11. & 37. thou ſhalt moſt plainely ſee. It ſeemeth the man was very impudent, or very childiſhly ignorāt of hiſtories, that would thus write. For who of any learning or reading is ignorant, that not onelyonly the Greeke church and other Eaſterne Churches, ſome hundreth yeares before the time that he ſpeaketh of, brake of communion with them, but that alſo, euen here in theſe Weſterne parts, in France, Bohemia, here in England and elſwher, long before this time, Petrus Valdus, Iohn Wickliffe, Iohn Hus, & Hierom of Prage, had ſo many followers and pertakers, againſt them and their abhominations, that for all the tyranny and moſt ſauage perſecutions, that they hauehave vſed to roote them out by, from time to time, that yet notwithſtanding, they hauehave continued, doe & will ſtil, in one place or other, maugre all their malice, euen to recompence that whore of Babylon, as ſhee hath deſerued at their hands? As for the variety of opinions amongſt vsus, that he vpbraydeth vsus withall, it is an obiection, yt Iohn de Albine often harped vponupon, & therefore which in anſwering of him, I hauehave ſufficiently (I hope) anſwered. Only this therfore to y• I further ſay here, that though they be more and greater then we like of, yet they are nether ſo great nor many, as theſe our aduerſaries, by amplifying of this obiectiō, & by multiplying of names, would ſeeme to make thē, nor yet in ſuch points, but that notwithſtanding, we all agree in the fundamentall & moſt principal points of chriſtiā religion, whereby, we hope, it will thorow Gods goodnes come to paſſe, that we ſhall ſhortly alſo, grow to vnity in the reſt. In the meane time ſure I am, that they whom by any reaſon he may ſay be of vsus, for our holding felowſhip and cōmunion togither in our confeſſion of the chriſtian faith, are all amongſt our ſelues, at farre more vnity then ſuch as he liketh of, & at far better vnity, then they be or euer hauehave beene, ſince they departed frō vsus. As for the Anabaptiſts & diuers others whom ſometime they charge vsus, in this caſe alſo withall, they know wel enough, we defy & deteſt thē, & their frantick opinions, as much as any, and of all men we hauehave beene the forwardeſt, in writing againſt them. And therefore they doe vsus the more wrong, when at any time, they aggrauate this obiection againſt vsus, by charging vsus to hauehave ſuch amongſt vsus, whom thus we ſhunne and miſlike aſwell as they. Thus much therfore, let ſuffice for anſwere to this fourth ſigne, and now let vsus proceede to the next.
The next is, not to obey, but reſiſt the Prelates of the Church, which hee would proue ſo to bee by Pauls ſaying 2. Tim. 3. like as Iannes and …ambres reſiſted Moſes, ſo doe theſe reſiſt the trueth, being men of corrupt mindes & reprobates in faith, of which fault when the learned proteſtant can proue them guilty, and vsus cleare, he promiſeth to recant. It ſeemeth the man in alleadging this text, did truſt his memory too much, for twiſe he hath writen Mābres for Iā bres, but if that were all his fault here, it were a ſmall matter. But here againe, according to his old woont, he muſt hauehave it freely giuē and granted him, for he bringeth nothing at all to proue it, that their Biſhops and Prelates are all ſuch, as Moſes & Paul was, yt is, faithfull in teaching only Gods people the truth. For vnles this be yeelded him, it neither may be granted him, that he rightly applieth his text, nor this ſigne againſt vsus. But he knoweth well enough, and ſo doe all the packe of thē, that we are ſo far from being ſo prodigall in our gifts vntounto them, that we hold their prelates, biſhops & Prieſts, to be very Iānes & Iambres in reſiſting our Biſhops and miniſters, in teaching the ſame truth, that they hauehave learned of Moſes & Paul, and that therefore we thinke no better of them, then of men of corrupt mindes & reprobate in the faith. For which cauſe we are ſure, we both may and ought to diſobey them, and reſiſt them, as we doe. For ſo we finde, that Eſay, Hieremy, Amos, Michaiah, Chriſt and his Apoſtles, in their times, refuſed to obey, and reſiſted the falſe doctrine, of the falſe Prophets, and high Prieſts, that thē were. What a vanity is it therefore, in this man to trouble his reader, with ſuch colde and poore ſtuffe as this is.
And truely hee hath no better happe in the laſt, then in any of the former. For ſetting it downe, that fickleneſſe and ſlipperineſſe of errours and hereſies, is a ſigne and ſure token to bewray the authors thereof, and that the catholique faith or trueth, is likewiſe to be knowen, by the conſtant ſtability thereof, he ſaieth that which we grant to be very true, as willingly as he, or any of his ſide. Inſomuch that cōmonly it is one of the principall reaſons, that we vſe to proue their opinions, that we ſtriue againſt them for, to be errours or hereſies, & thēſelues for now holding them ſo obſtinatly, as they doe, heretiques, for that we are able to ſhew, how by ſtealing and ſoft paces, ſtily they began firſt to creepe in, and ſo went on frō worſe to worſe, vntill (to vſe his owne tearme) they came ad proſū dum malorū, that is euen to the depth of all euill, that they are now growen vntounto therein. Who ſo readeth my anſwere to Albines publiſhers preface, and the 37. Chapter of my anſwere to Albine himſelfe, ſhall finde, that in a good ſort of their opinions, I hauehave ſhewed this. But to proue this, that it is the property of heretiques to be fickle and mouing, and ſo ſoone to periſh & paſſe away, he alleadgeth S. Peter, ſaying, that lying maſters doe bring vpō thēſelues ſwift dānation, & their deſtruction ſleepeth not: which he ſpake of gods iudgements y• vndoubtedly ſhould ouertake ſuch mē, & not as he vnderſtandeth him, to ſhew yt their opinions alwaies ſhould ſoone paſſe away and vaniſh. In the former ſence it is alwaies foūd true, that S. Peter writeth, either here, or els where, or both: but take it in the later ſence, then Peter ſhall often be found to hauehave prophecied of ſuch, vntruly. For who knoweth not, that the groſſe errours of Turciſm are of very long continuance, & that the errour of the Aethiopians for circumciſion is far more ancients, and that yet it continueth? And muſt not of neceſſity the errours and hereſies of Antichriſt be of very long continuance, ſeeing Paul (as we hauehave heard) confeſſeth, that the myſtery of that iniquity beganne to worken in his time, aboue 1500. years ago, and that it ſhould not quite be aboliſhed, before Chriſts ſecond comming, who then ſhould yet by the brightneſſe of his comming aboliſh it 2. Theſſ. 2? The trueth of whoſe prophecy in that place, is the very true ground of the antiquity, vniuerſality, and continuance of the popiſh and Antichriſtian Religion. So that howſoeuer it hath fallen out in ſome hereſies, that they hauehave in Gods moſt wiſe prouidence, euen quickely brought themſelues to an ende, by their ficklenes & moouing, yet it appeareth, in that place the ſinne of not beleeuing the trueth, ſo notably taught and confirmed by Chriſt and his Apoſtles, in the iuſt iudgement of God, by Antichriſtianity is ſo ſeuerely to be puniſhed, that therewith, euen from the Apoſtles daies to the ende of the worlde, they that commit that ſinne, ſhall bee in danger to bee deluded and ſeduced moſt dangerouſly. Which I ſay, and ſure I am I can proue it, hath beene and yet is, moſt notoriouſly verifyed by popery, to the wonderfull hurt and deſtruction of ſoules. Howbeit this man would faine apply this ſigne vntounto vsus, for that amongſt vsus (as it pleaſeth him to write) here in England, for the louelove we beare to the doctrine of the Zwinglians, Oecolampadians and Caluiniſts, the Lutherans hauehave takē their iuſt ouerthrow, and for that now here, Preciſians and Puritans (as he ſaith) through the affection of the common people, and ſo winking at them, by ſome mageſtrates, hauehave brought the Zwinglians and Caluiniſts, to be ready to yeeld vp the ghoſt, and to tilt vp their heeles. But theſe are but vaine words, and proue not his purpoſe. For all theſe, howſoeuer in other matters of leſſer moment they too much diſagree, yet as I hauehave ſaied before, and as it is notoriouſly knowen, for the principall articles of religion, cō cerning faith or maners, they are in conſtant vnity, holding the ſame all of them, that they hauehave learned in theſe points out of the Canonical ſcriptures, as the harmony of their confeſſions extant to the world in print, make it euident.
As for the ſeuerall and priuate opinions of Luther, and his too earneſt followers, which we now miſlike, we hauehave likewiſe alwaies miſliked, and therefore in that reſpect they hauehave no other ouerthrow amongſt vsus, then they alwaies ſince we firſt heard of them hauehave had, and howſoeuer in theſe points, we rather prefer Zuinglius and Caluins iudgement then theirs, yet certaine it is, that we build not our faith of them; nor of them, or by them, delight we to be called; we proteſt and profeſſe our ſelues to be chriſtians, and of him onelyonly and of his vndoubted ſpirit, ſpeaking vntounto vsus in the canonicall ſcriptures hauehave we learned our religion, with which, as far as we finde any man to agree, we reuerence him, as it becommeth vsus in the Lord, & further we take not our ſelues bound to follow any man, whatſoeuer he be. That Puritans and Preciſians, hauehave brought the ancient Proteſtants of this land of all ſortes to any ſuch point, by any ſuch meanes as he ſpeaketh of, he ſpeaketh both vntruely and ſlanderouſly. For ſuch, as for their prepoſterous zeale and factious turbulent ſpirits, amongſt vsus deſerue ſo to be called and accounted, neither are for number ſo many, nor for credit ſo affected of the common people, nor wincked at of the mageſtrats, as he pretendeth. But if ther were as many fond ſectaries that hauehave ariſen vp amongſt vsus theſe late yeares, as this man and other of his fellowes ſometime would hauehave men to beleeue, as long yet, as we for all that, continue conſtant not onelyonly in the very ſame religion that we were of, when we firſt broke of from them, but alſo in that which hath plentifull and moſt playne warrant both from the canonicall ſcriptures and al ſound antiquity, as we hauehave a thouſand times ſhewed, and yet ſtill are willing and ready alwaies to doe, why ſhould they thus odiouſly be obiected againſt vsus, to diſgrace either vsus, or our religion, eſpecially ſeeing wee are ſory for it, and ſhew our miſlike thereof as wee doe? May any man iuſtly diſgrace the Apoſtles, and the Apoſtolique churches, for that euen in their times, there aroſe ſo many ſectaries and heretiques, amongſt the Churches planted by them, as both by their owne writings and other Eccleſiaſticall hiſtories it is notoriouſly knowen there did? Hath not Chriſt euen of purpoſe, to preuent all offence taking hereat, compared his kingdome Matth. 13. to a field wherein the good ſeedſ-man hauing ſowen good wheat, the enuious man ſo ſoweth his tares, that they come vp togither wt the wheat, and ſo will doe vntounto the harueſt? To let vaine words and brags go, let thē proue but once any of them, or all of them togither, either that their religion is the plaine way of ſaluation, beaten by our forefathers for theſe 1500. yeares paſt, or that ours is not that very trueth, yt Chriſt and his Apoſtles taught, as a perpetual trueth, for the true church conſtantly to hold to the worlds end, and we will ſtriue with them no lōger. But as this is a matter too hard & heauy for them, ſo they are content to let it alone, and with fallacies & vaine words, to trie if they can beguile the ſimple people, and bring them to a miſliking of that, which to miſlike indeede they are not able to giuegive them one ſound reaſon. And therefore to conclude, that both beginning, ending, and alwaies, this mā may be like himſelfe, he taketh it for graunted, that their religion is the ſound catholique faith, that the martyr Sebaſtian meant by his loafe, which broken and broken againe, after it was once well made and baked, by ſectaries & heretiques (as he told Genſerichus the tyrant) would neuer become better: and that ours is but a breaking of it, to make it better againe, wc will neuer be. Whereas we conſtantly hold & affirme, that we may iuſtly ſay to all papiſts, euen as Sebaſtian ſaied to that tyrant. For the loafe that we feed on, and would hauehave all others to feed on, with vsus, we are able to proue is that, the graine whereof Chriſt himſelfe, by his faithfull ſeruants, hath ſowen in the ſound field of the canonical ſcriptures, & which he himſelfe hath ground, kneaden, & baked for vsus and for all his children. And likewiſe we are able to proue, yt this fine white loafe of the Lords own preparing, alwaies lying ready in the ſtorehouſe of his writen word, ye Romiſh church hath a long time & doth ſtil as much loath, as euer the children of Iſrael did Manna. And therefore as they preferred in their conceits, garlicke, leekes, & onions, & the fleſh-pots of Egypt, before that heauēly food, ſo hath ſhe and doeth ſhe a maſſiue loafe, the corne whereof muſt not come onelyonly out of the foreſaied field of the Lord, for then it would hauehave no fauour with them, but in great part, out of the rotten field of mens traditions & inuentions, before the pure white loafe of the lords own making. Wherefore to conclude, all his ſpeech or exhortation, groū ded vponupon this ſtory out of Victor de perſecutione Vandalorum, any man may ſee, we might farre more iuſtly, vſe againſt thēſelues of the Romiſh Church, to perſuade them as they regard their owne ſaluation, &c. to content themſelues with vsus, with this Sebaſtians loafe, of the firſt and beſt making.
I hauehave thus, thou ſeeſt (good reader) but briefly paſt ouer theſe things: and the rather I hauehave ſo done, firſt, becauſe I found no matter in them, but grounded vponupon ſhameles begging of that which is moſt in queſtion: and ſecondly, becauſe in my anſwere to Albine, I had vponupon occaſion giuen me by him, already anſwered al, or moſt of his aſſumptions againſt vsus, in the applying of theſe ſignes vntounto vsus. But laſtly, by view of an anſwere made at large, by maſter Crowley, both to the 22. demaunds and theſe ſix ſignes alſo, that came to my hands ſince my finiſhing of this anſwere of mine, I ſee, if it had beene vndone, I might well hauehave ſpared al my labour herein. If therefore thou deſireſt any further anſwer, concerning any of theſe, I refer thee to him. And thus I take my leaue of thee, beſeeching the Lord now and euer to bleſſe both thee and me, and heartily praying thee to remember me alwaies in thy godly prayers to God: to whom be all glory, praiſe, and dominion now and euer.
Thine in the Lord: Thomas Sparke.