Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 42
The XLII. Chapter.
YOƲ that can ſaie ſo well, that one ought to liue according to the ſcripture, and that you will by it reforme vsus, why doe yee not beginne with your ſelues, to giuegive vsus theaWe doe… & yet when we hauehave done what we can, there wil be ſome amongſt vsus whom you may too iuſtly charge with theſe and other ſins, becauſe alwaies there will be ſome hypocrites and time-ſeruers, but ſeeing we doe by our religion cō demne ſuch vſages, & thoſe that embrace our religiō in ſincerity, condemne theſe ſins and abſteine from them, neither we, nor our religion are to be charged with them. better example. Frō whence come ſo many kinde of vſuries & exceſſiue intereſts, as you doe vſe? You call our church abhominable and adulterous. He that is among you without ſinne, let him caſt the firſt ſtone. You doe abhorre our idols (as you tearme them, talking of our images) how commeth it to paſſe then, that ſome of yours ſhould come ſo neare vsus that are Idolaters, as to robbe our Churches, and to carie awaie the images and reliques, and to go and ſell them in other places? But now to make an ende of this diſcourſe, although it vvere ſo, that your works were the beſt of the world, yea, whollie without ſpot or ſin (as ſome ofbIf any ſo affirm, we renounce them, they are none of vsus. you doe affirme) yet vvere not they ſufficient to moue vsus to change our Religion, nor to forſake that that our forefathers hauehave taught vsus: for although it be ſo, that our ſauiour Chriſt was as iuſt and as innocēt as anie cā be, hath beene, or euer ſhall be, yet neither his holie life, nor the Scriptures that he did alleadge, to proue his comming by the authoritie of the Prophets, nor the teſtimonie of S. Iohn Baptiſt: all theſe things togither were not ſufficient to perſwade the Iewes to forſake their old lawes, and to receaue the Goſpell, without the teſtimonie of the greatcNeither would they beleeue, when hee had wrought his miracles, no more would you, if we ſhould. miracles that he did in their preſence. He doeth confeſſe this plainly, where hee ſaieth: ifdIoh. 15. And ſo he ſaith, if I had not ſpoken vntounto thē, they ſhould not hauehave had ſin, but now they hauehave no cloake for their ſin. v. 22. I had not done in their preſence the works and miracles that neuer any had done, they ſhould hauehave no ſinne. This ſentence is moſt notable and worthy to bee grauen in the hearts of all Catholiques, to aſſure their conſciēces which are troubled with ſuch diuerſitie of opiniōs. For although it were ſo, that you, my maſters, were the honeſteſt men of the worlde, ſent from God to teach and preach a true doctrine, yet ſhould we be excuſable before God for not receauing of your commiſſion, euen as the Iewes had beene for not receiuing of our ſauiour Chriſt,eIt was expreſly prophecied, that whē the Meſſias ſhould come, he ſhould worke ſuch works, and therefore it was neceſſary, that he ſhould work them, and herein he had priuilege and prerogatiue beyond all men: the like is not prophecied, that preachers of the goſpel ſhould do alwaies, & therfore this is required at our hands, without all reaſon. And yet therefore we hauehave not more priuiledge but leſſe, thē Chriſt. if he had not done ſo manie miracles. For we know no cauſe, why you ſhould be more priuiledged then Chriſt. And ſeeing that you hauehave ſhewed nothing to verify it this waie, and that the Scriptures, make no mention of your vocation, nor you ſhewe no miracles, & that your liues are at the leaſt as ill as ours:fThus to threatē you we may boldly & without ſhame, becauſe we are able to proue our doctrine by the ſcriptures, to be the ſame, that Chriſt taught and confirmed with his miracles. what moues you to be ſo bolde and ſo vnſhamefaced, as to threaten vsus with eternall damnation, if we receiue not your hereticall doctrine, the which is ſo full of diſcords and diuiſions, that one maie eaſilie gather by this, from whence it came, and whither it doeth leade one, although yee hauehave nothing in your mouthes, but the Goſpell and the word of the Lorde? And asgWhoſo reads that tract of Auguſtine, ſhall finde the Manichees, to whom he ſpeaketh, farre like… you then vsus. S. Auguſtine ſaied vntounto your ſemblables, Sola perſonat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio. hI would you would go on with Auguſtine and ſaie, if that be found with you, it is more worth then al the reſt, and that you would be contented to try that, by the ſcriptures, as he was, and then you would ſure, ſo many of you as hauehave any grace, quickly ioyne with vsus.I ſaie no more at this time, but that I beſeech God to drawe you as neere to vsus, as you are farre from vsus, and to inspire your mindes to turne to the flocke of Chriſt, the which, both to your owne harme and ours you hauehave forſaken.
The XLII. Chapter.
THere is no queſtion of that, but that eueryevery one is to begin firſt to reforme himſelfe: and the Lord giuegive both vsus, and you grace, effectually ſo to doe. But if neither ſide ſhould call vponupon the other for reformation, vntill the one ſide were growen wholy cleare of ſinne: you know well enough, that then they muſt neuer doe it. For what company and ſociety of men euer was there, but therein was ſome bad, as well as good? As Adam had an Abel, ſo had he a Caine. There was an Iſmael, as well as an Iſaac, in Abrahams houſe. And Iſaac had an Eſau, as well as a Iacob. Amongſt the eight that were ſaued in the Arke, there was a Cham. In the foure that left Sodom, one that looked backe. And amongſt Chriſts 12. Apoſtles there was a Iudas. Yea, Chriſt hath taught vsus, by the parable of the good ſeede, and tares Math. 13. that we are to expect no other in Gods owne field, but that euen vntounto the harueſt there wilbe a mixture alwaies, of bad with good. But you charge vsus further that amongſt vsus, there are many kinde of vſuries, and intereſts; and that though one way, we care not for your images, yet we louelove them ſo well an other way; that we hauehave robbed your churches of them. Whereunto, my anſwere is, that we cānot deny, but there are too many amongſt vsus, who by ſuch vnlawfull meanes, ſeeke to enrich thēſelues; and that there are too too many profane, and carnall men, that hauehave our religiō in their mouthes, who by their lewd conuerſation, diſhonour the glorious goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt: & we are moſt hartely ſory for it, and dayly pray vntounto God, for amendmēt thereof. But this we muſt tell you, that we preach againſt al ſinne & impiety whatſoeuer; and namely, againſt vſury and al tumultuous and diſorderly ſpoiling of churches of ſuch thinges as you talke of. And our Religion, and the lawes in our common weale condemne and diſalow ſuch dealing, & therefore we are wronged, that in theſe things, we generally, or our religiō at al, ſhould be charged. Surely many of our vſurers & extreame dealing men amongſt vsus, are either men of no Religion, or yours, rather then ours: neither doe I thinke where your Religion is in greateſt credit, that in thoſe common weales, vſury lieth dead and buried. Sure I am, your Popes hauehave beene for a long time, the cunningeſt and vnreaſonableſt vſurers in the whole world; in that they hauehave ſold their palles, their lead, and other their hallowed ware, which are indeede trifles, and thinges of no valewe, for ſuch ſummes of money and gold, as they hauehave.
You flatly ſlaunder vsus, in ſaying, that there are ſome of vsus, that affirme, we are wholy without ſpot or ſinne. For we both deteſt that opinion, and count them that ſhould holde ſo, euen worthy to be deteſted for their ſo holding. Yet you ſay; if it were ſo, that ought not to moue you, to leaue your religion taught you by your forefathers. What a ſound ground of Religion, forefathers without diſtinction is, I hauehave ſhewed ſufficiently already. In which point I would alwaies hauehave the Chriſtian to learne, to diſtinguiſh, betwixt the olde and ancient forefathers, the Apoſtles, and their ſucceſſours in doctrine and life, in the primitiue church; and the later forefathers; and neuer to thinke the latter worthy following any further, then they hauehave followed the former, and then the danger of this dart is auoided. And that it is reaſon, we ſhould follow them no further, we may learne in that Paul himſelfe 1. Cor. 11. requireth no further to be followed then he followed Chriſt. But you hauehave a further reaſon, not to be moued from your Religion, for our life, were it neuer ſo Godly; becauſe Chriſt, though he was without ſin, and confirmed his doctrine, both by the anciēt ſcriptures, and Iohn Baptiſts teſtimony: yet he ſaied, that if he had not done in their preſence, the workes and miracles, that neuer mā did before him; they had had no ſinne, Iohn 15.24. For hereof, you gather, that you may ſecurely, whatſoeuer we ſay vntounto you, or howſoeuer we liue, refuſe vsus and our Religion; and continue in your owne ſtill, as long as we proue not the lawfulnes of our vocation, and the goodnes of our Religion by miracles. For you know no cauſe (you ſay) why we ſhould be more priuiledged then Chriſt. This argument you vrged before cap. 30. and there I anſwered it. Where I hauehave ſhewed you, amōgſt diuers other reaſons, that there was this eſpeciall reaſō, that Chriſt ſhould worke ſuch miracles as he did; to proue himſelfe the Meſsias: becauſe expreſſely the Prophets had prophecied, that he ſo ſhould when he came: which reaſon you cannot ſhew, why now wee ſhould work miracles. For the Prophecies that were giuen forth by Paul 2. Theſſ. 2. and by Iohn, Reuel. 14. of the conſumption of Antichriſt and fall of Babylon, ſhew onelyonly, that the Lorde would doe it, by the ſpirit of his mouth, in the preaching of the euerlaſting Goſpell. That therefore is it onelyonly, that we are to approue our ſelues by, to be the men, that the Lorde will vſe to that purpoſe. And yet herein we take not vponupon vsus, greater priuiledge then Chriſt. For we accoūt that an eſpeciall priuiledge of his, that he was ſo to confirme his doctrine by miracles; as that, after the confirmation of it, ſo by him, & his Apoſtles; and the recording of it in the new Teſtament, as it is; it ſhould thenceforth ſtand ſo firme, that it ſhould be an intollerable ſigne of incredulity; amongſt them eſpecially, that pretend they reuerence, and receaue the ſcriptures, as you would ſeeme to doe: euer to require miracles more, to confirme the ſame doctrine by. You were not beſt therefore to perſwade your ſelues in this ſort, ye howſoeuer it be with your religion otherwiſe, yet you ſhalbe at the leaſt without blame, for your not receiuing of ours, becauſe we work no miracles. Deceiue not your ſelues. It is not wt you now in reſpect of vsus, and our doctrine, as it was then with the Iewes, in reſpect of him▪ and his. Then, that he was the particuler perſon of the Meſſias, & that therefore he being come, the ceremonies of Moſes law, ſhould ceaſe, and giuegive place to his ſacraments &c: was a thing to be proued, & that by miracles; becauſe it was before prophecied: whereas now thoſe things long ago, hauehave beene ſufficiently confirmed, and therefore, we preaching vntounto you no other doctrine, but that, ſo already confirmed; and requiring no further to be credited, then we can ſo proue our doctrine; eſpecially, ſeeing the prophecies cōcerning theſe later daies, ſhew rather, y• Antichriſt and his Chaplaines ſhal come, and ſeeke to preuaile by miracles, then the Lords faithful paſtours: you hauehave no ſuch reaſon, as they had, nor indeed any at all, to require miracles at our hands.
But you ſay vntounto vsus, as Auguſtine ſaied vntounto the Manichees, contra epiſt. Fundam. cap. 4. ſola perſonat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio: with you there is no other ſound, but promiſe that you hauehave the truth. Whereunto adde the words that immediatly follow, and you are anſwered. For he addeth; which yet if you can make appeare, is ſo cleare of your ſide, that it may not be doubted of: is to be preferred, before all thoſe things, that otherwiſe holde me in the Catholique Church. Be you of this minde once with Auguſtine, and then learne this one other leſſon of him, do vnitate eccleſiae, contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis, ſed diuinis oraculis eccleſiam demonſtrari: I will not hauehave demonſtration made of the church, by humane documents, but by the diuine oracles. And ſo ſay vntounto vsus, as he ſaied there vntounto Petilian; let vsus ſeeke the Church, and ſo diſcuſſe our cauſe by the ſcriptures: beholde, they are common vntounto vsus both; beholde, there we hauehave knowen Chriſt: beholde, there we hauehave knowen the church &c. Take this courſe once with vsus, and I doubt not, whatſoeuer you brag to the contrary; but we ſhall thereby be able, to iuſtifie both our vocation, and Religion; and to make it appeare, that we hauehave not onelyonly a bragge of trueth, with you and the Manichees, but the very trueth it ſelfe. And this being proued, thē you muſt yeelde with Auguſtine, that it is to be preferred, before all other outward thinges whatſoeuer, that hauehave kept you hitherto, in an other Religion, and church: yea, then you muſt confeſſe, notwithſtanding all your obiections otherwiſe againſt vsus, of nouelty, paucity, iars in opinion, and whatſoeuer elſe: yet it is your dueties to ioyne with vsus, in receauing of this trueth. Wherefore vnleſſe you will let all other bie matters go, and enter once into this queſtion with vsus, in earneſt; whether your Religion or ours be the trueth; and for the triall thereof, will ſtand to the ſcriptures interpreted according to the ſound, and alwaies vſed rules of interpreting them; colour your refuſing thus to doe, with what colours poſſibly you can, you too too groſſely be wray the badneſſe of your cauſe: and euidently ſhewe, that you onelyonly ſeeke ſhifts, hoales, and corners, to eſcape as long as you may, the diſcredit therof. And your owne frends will they, nill they, ſhalbe inforced to ſee the ſame.
You conclude with prayer, that we may drawe as neare you, as we are farre from you: and that we may turne to the flock of Chriſt, the which, both to your hurt and our owne (you ſay) we hauehave forſaken. Inſteede of Amen, to yours, I beſeech the Lord of all mercies, and father of our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, that it would pleaſe him, of his infinit goodnes and mercy, euen for his deare ſonne Ieſus ſake; to open the eies of your mindes, and ſo to touch your hearts, as that you may hauehave grace, with vsus, to come out of Babylon, and to leaue that gariſh whore of Rome, with all her abhominations, and ſo to ioyne with vsus, in the true communion of Saints, and fellowſhip of the trueth, and ſpirit, that both you and we may dwell togither, as brethren, in one houſe; agree and growe togither, as members of one body; & reſt togither, as ſheepe of one flocke; vnderunder one father, God almighty, & vnderunder one head, & ſhepheard Chriſt Ieſus; through the mighty working of the holy Ghoſt, to Gods glory, and our owne euerlaſting comfort. Amen.
FINIS.