Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 38
The XXXVIII. Chapter.
ANd if I did not thinke,aWhat are the ceremonies in baptiſme, auricul…r confeſſion, praying to Saints and for the dead, either all or the moſt material things of your religion, that we oppugne, or was your prouiſion onelyonly in a readines for thoſe. that it would bebYou pretend feare of being too tedious, cauſed you to particularize no more. but lack of ſoūd proofe for any thing that we withſtand in you cauſed you both thus cōfuſedly & ſ…amlingly to run thorow this, and to paſſe ouer the reſt. too tedious for the Reader, I would ſet forth the reſt of our Catholique doctrine, & the confirmatiō of it by the teſtimonycIf you had done this indeed, it had bene ſomewhat, but it being the onelyonly thing, that of all other you ſhould hauehave done, and thus to paſſe it ouer with a brag what you would hauehave don, but for had I wiſt, bewraieth the penury of your cauſe, eſpecially, you not ſo much as once bragging, that you would proue any of thē by the Scriptures. of ſuch a number, of not only doctours, but therewith all holy confeſſours & martyrs, which hauehave ſuffered for our religion, and that hauehave taught vsus, both by word of mouth, and by writing, all that we doe vſe at this day, teaching vsus to liue and die in it and for it.dYou ground your queſtion vponupon a ſuppoſall that you could hauehave beene as good as your brag, which you neuer could hauehave beene▪ and therfore at leaſt vntill you had made better proofe of your cūning that way you might hauehave ſpared this …ueſtion. I would hauehave you anſwere me vntounto this. Doe you thinke, that they be in heauen or in hell? I know well, that meere ſcrupuloſ…y of conſcience will make you not expreſſe plainely that, that your workes doe teach, and that you will remitte this queſtion to the iudgement of God. But this is not to the purpoſe, for I doe not demaūd of you any abſolute anſwere, as if you had beene in heauen or hell to ſee it: but this, to vtter in your conſciēce, what you thinke of thoſe that hauehave holden, mainteined and confeſſed our faith (whom you call Infidels and ſuperſtitious Papiſts) are they condemned? If you ſay, yea, then wherefore was the bloud of Chriſt ſhed on theeFor all true beleeuers, and for al ſuch of yours that ere they died got hold of the foundation a right, and yet for you to ſay as you doe, is no better thē blaſphemy, for though al dying in the groſnes of popery were condemned, yet it is well and a happy thing that Chriſt died. Croſſe? it had beene better that he had neuer ſuffered, if this were true. If you ſay, that God would be mercifull to thē, becauſe their errour proceeded of ignorance, and ſo, that he wil hauehave pitty of vsus, becauſe of ours. But I know, that you will ſay, that we are nowe vnexcuſable, becauſe that wee doe refuſe the trueth that you doe preach. By the ſelfe ſame reaſon our anceſters cā alleage before God no good excuſe, for aſmuch as they doe make no accoūt of the receiuing of ſuch miniſters as you are, & that hauehave preached the like goſpell that you doe announce vntounto vsusfTheſe things follow not at al, for ſo the foundation be held ſoundly, eueryevery errour that a manholdeth liuing or dying condēneth not. S. Hierom & all the Chriſtians of his time are then condēned, becauſe they would not receaue the Gospell of Vigilātius, who did euen as you doe preach, that we ſhould not allowe the expoſition of the Doctours, nor honour the reliques of martyr; S. Auguſtine is likewiſe condemned, becauſe he wrote and preached againſt thegAeriās you mean I think. Arrians, who taught as you doe, that it is an offence to praie for the dead. And to be briefe, if that which you doe preach ought to be called the gospell & true word of god, ſince the Apoſtles time there hath benehI would mē would & could read thē, as you wiſh for thē, I am ſure they ſhuld find thē to be far more with vsus thē with you. neuer a Chriſtian doctour in the Church: for they hauehave all taught the contrary to your forged gospell, as eueryevery man may ſee, that will take the paine, but to looke in their workes, or to read thoſe places that are quoted by me, and diuers others, that hauehave confuted your hereſies many a hundred years agone by their authorities. Let them then that hauehave any eies, beholde the hazard that yee runne into, and ſo many others throughout the world, which followe your opinion.iEuē thus do you with vsus▪ If one ſhould come to accuſe an other of falſehoode, and that before hee bee aſſured of this matter, wherewith hee did ſeeke to atteinte the defendaunt, would not one thinke his matter verie great, or his knowledge verie ſmall, to run headlong into the danger of that crime, which, if he could not proue, he ſhould be condemned for himſelfe. What then ſhall become of you, O moſt ſimple ſheepe, which ſeeke with fained arguments to condemne, not one or two,kTheſe are but words, feare thē not: but ſeeing the man had nothing elſe, he thought good belike to hauehave enough of them, and thoſe ſwelling enough. but all the Chriſtians and Catholiques that hauehave beene in this world ſince the paſſion of Chriſt, the which hauehave refuſed and reproued your doctrine as hereticall, & hauehave taught vsus this that we hold at this day? But now to anſwere vntounto that that was mentioned a little before, & that which a nū ber of your flocke hauehave told me, when I hauehave conferred with thē, which is, thatlWe doe not hold that ignora…ce wil excuſe any, that dye out of the true faith of Chriſt and therefore it is likely you tell but a tale. the errour of our predeceſſours was not imputed vntounto thē, foraſmuch as theſe good ſimple people went to worke after the groſſeſt ſort, thinking to doe well, and that as then they did not vnderſtand well the trueth, which is now brought to light through your goſpell. I ſay, that in this yee are deceaued more then halfe the valewe of your Religion:mYou would ſeeme then belike that your ſim…le and ignorāt papiſt…, hauehave all beene great and profound cla… kes. for before ſome of them died, they had forgotten more thē euer you hauehave learned, for all that, that you knowe you hauehave learned it of their bookes (or ſtollen it, to ſaie the trueth) interpreting both their workes & the ſcriptures contrary to the trueth of their meaning. And although it were ſo that they had al erred, your coloured excuſe of ſimplicity could auaile them nothing, for the word of God would accuſe them. IfnI am glad to heare you cite this teſtimony to p…oue, that ignorance of the goſpell ſhall not excuſe any, but why plead you then ſometime, that ignorance is the mother of deuotion? the Goſpel (ſaith*2. Corinth. 4. S. Paul) had bene hidden, it hath beene hiddē to thoſe that hauehave periſhed, the ſpirits of the which the God of this world hath blinded: thē if that thoſe vntounto whom the trueth hath beene hidden hauehave periſhed, wherefore doeth your excuſe ſerue thē? This being true, as it is moſt like, I meane, that they hauehave not erred, nor that you onelyonly ſhalbe ſaued, & they all condemned. To my iudgement our aunceſtours with al their ſimplicitie did neuer erre ſo much as your diſciples doe, to follow ſuch maſters,oThis brag hath beene vſed ſo often without proofe, that now it is ſtole and lothſome. as condemne that faith that the Catholique church hath taught & mainteined theſe 1500. yeares, to mainteine thoſe hereſies, that hauehave bene buried in hell many an hundred year agone, & now are called vp againe by Martin Luther, Caluin & his fellowes.
The XXXVIII. Chapter.
THe vanity of the brag wherwith you begin againe this Chapter, by that which I hauehave ſaied in anſwering of ye former, hath appeared (I hope) ſufficiētly already: but whenſoeuer it ſhall pleaſe you, or any for you, to thinke that it will not bee tedious for the Reader, to bring vsus forth this number of Doctours, confeſſours, & martyrs, that you here boaſt of, and to make it appeare indeede by their owne words, or other good euidence, that they were liuing & dying, ſo on your ſide, as you here pretend, I doubt not, but one of vsus or other, will eaſily make it euident vntounto the world, that you are far greater in words and ſhew, then you are in deedes and trueth. You would hauehave your reader beleeue, that onelyonly to auoide tediouſnes to him, you hauehave forborne by their teſtimonies liuing and dying, here to confirme all the reſt of your doctrine, and all that you doe vſe at this day: but alas your owne conſcience telleth you, that indeed not onelyonly the tediouſnes of it to your ſelfe, but the impoſſibility of it altogither, drew you to be glad to vſe this prety ſhift & piece of cūning, to ſalue your credit & your cauſes wt him. Cōſidering therfore what already hath beene anſwered to the fathers quoted by you in the former Chapter (in whoſe euidence for thoſe matters belike you durſt be boldeſt) & what otherwiſe vponupon ſundry other occaſions, in anſwering of your booke, I hauehave ſet downe out of thē directly to proue the contrary to this, yt you ſay you could proue out of thē; your queſtion, wt vponupon the ſuppoſall of your brag here to be but a trueth, you hauehave inferred & put forth; whither theſe doctours, confeſſours & martyrs that you talke of be in heauen, or hel, is childiſh, friuolous & needles. For you know well enough, that there is neuer a doctour, confeſſour, or Martyr, of any credit and worthie ſo to be accounted, for the Catholique Religion they taught and dyed in, but (though in ſome of them, we doe not deny there might be found ſome inclinations towards ſome things now held by you) that yet we holde, that foraſmuch as not onelyonly they held with vsus the foundation, and other principall points of Chriſtian Religion, wherein you are contrary both vntounto them & vsus, but that alſo the Lord in his mercy towards them, kept thē in the reſt frō the groſſenes & impiety that you are therein fallen into ſince; that they were and are ours and not yours. And therefore, we comfortably aſſure our ſelues, that (they holding the foundation and other principall points as they did, though they as men, builded thereupon ſome wood, hay, & ſtubble) yet the Lord ſoūd the meanes by the fire of his ſpirit, and affliction, ſo to deſcrie the ſame vntounto them, & to cōſume al that vnſutable building in them, ere they went hence, that we neede not thorow any ſuch ſcrupuloſitie of conſcience as you imagine, feare to giuegive our iudgement or opinion of them. For wee feare not their being in hell, for being on your ſide, but in that they were of ours, as they were and as I hauehave ſaied, wee chriſtianly perſwade our ſelues that their ſoules are in heauen. And you, fearing belike for all your cauilling, that touching theſe ancient doctours, confeſſours, and martyrs that this would be our anſwere, becauſe you knew it might iuſtly be ſo, you were content quickely to giuegive ouer the purſuit of this queſtion, and to aſke vsus this, what wee thinke in our conſcience, of thoſe that maintained & cōfeſſed your faith & Religion, whither they be condemned or no? And to feare vsus, from ſaying they be; vponupon the necke of this, you aſke vsus, if it were ſo, why then was the bloud of Chriſt ſhed; affirming confidently, that if this were ſo, that then it had beene better that Chriſt had neuer ſuffered. This indeede I doe know to be one of your common bugges, whereby you ſeeke to make the ſimple affraide, either to forſake you, or to ioyne with vsus: ſaying when you ſee men about thus to doe, what, will you condemne all your forefathers? And to this end with manie words you āplifie the goodnes of the forefathers, & what an vnchriſtian cruelty it is to cōdemne all our ancient forefathers? Before I come to the anſwering of which obiection, I cannot but tell you, that in ſetting downe ſo bluntly & boldly, as you hauehave, that if they that confeſſed and maintained your Religion be condemned, that then it had beene better that Chriſt neuer had died, you hauehave vttered groſſe & intollerable blaſphemy. For though none ſuch ſhould be ſaued by the death of Chriſt, thouſand thouſands both hauehave bene and ſhalbe ſaued therby: & better it were that al ſuch, as you meane, ſhould for euer be condemned, then that this ſpeech of yours had any trueth in it. But to anſwer this your obiection, taken frō the dangerouſnes of condēning forefathers, becauſe by the nāe of thē you keep men, as you doe, in your Romiſh and Babilonical captiuity: firſt the reader is to vnderſtand, that an argument takē frō forefathers ſimply, without diſtinction, but as you doe this of yours, in matters of Religion, is not good. For Ez. 20. we read that the Lord ſaied thus vntounto his people, walke not in the preceps of your fathers, neither obſerue their maners, nor defile your ſelues with their idols. And Dauid ſaieth, Pſ. 78. Let thē not be as their forefathers were, a diſobediēt, & rebellious generatiō &c. And the like warning ye people had, Pſal. 95. Zach. 1. & Ier. 11. Whereupō Peter telleth the Chriſtians, to whom he wrote, that by the bloud of Chriſt, they were redeemed frō the vaine cōuerſation of their fathers, 1. Pet. 1. If this argument had beene good, when Chriſt came, & ſent his Apoſtles abroad, to preach the goſpell to al natiōs: our forefathers in all natiōs then did ill, in receiuing the doctrine of the goſpell. For their forefathers for ſome 1000. yeares before, had held, profeſſed, & mainteined heatheniſh paganiſme. And it ſeemeth that many of the heathē then, vſed this very argument of yours, to keepe men in paganiſme ſtill. For ſuch an obiectiō I read, both made by thē, & anſwered by Peter as it is writē, Clemētis lib. 5. recognitionū ) by Ignatius, ad Philadelphēſes: & by Auguſtin in quaeſt. veteris, & noui teſtamēti quaeſt. 114. By this reaſon, ſaied Peter (as Clemēt reports it) If a mans father be a thiefe, or a bawde, the child muſt be no other. To ſuch as ſaied they would beleeue no other goſpell thē they foūd their forefathers had, Ignatius anſwereth; my antiquity is Ieſus Chriſt, whō not to obey, is manifeſt damnation. That which was before, ſaieth Auguſtine, the Paganes ſay, cānot be bad. To whom he anſwereth ſaying; as though antiquity may preiudice trueth. For thus might murderers, wantons, adulterers, & other lewd liuers, defend their wickedneſſes; becauſe they are old, & hauehave beene frō the beginning, ſaieth he. So yt both ſcripture, reaſō & ye ancient fathers themſelues teach vsus, yt it is not alwaies ſafe, to cōtinue in the Religion, wherein our forefathers liued & died; and ſo eaſily we may perceiue, yt this your argument, how cōmon ſoeuer it be wt you, is of no force. For it hath beene the old argument of Pagans, & doubtles is at this day, the chiefe argument yt keepeth Turks, & Jewes from yeelding to the Goſpell, leaſt then they ſhould condemne all their forefathers.
But as your argument is naught, ſo your antecedent is falſe alſo. For albeit that our Religion differ from yours, as it doeth; yet farre is it from vsus, that therefore we condemne all our forefathers. For, firſt we know, yt frō Chriſt, wel near 1000. yeares, they thē that profeſſed Chriſt, for the moſt part, liued & died, holding ye foūdatiō, & many other principall points of religiō wt vsus; & therfore of their ſaluatiō, we doubt not. Secondly, euer ſince, howſoeuer a nūmber fell away, frō the trueth & ſeemed wholy to be yours, yet we are perſwaded, & we know it to be true; eſpecially ſince Petrus Vald his time, who was 400. yeares ago; there hauehave beene great & knowen multitudes, openly ioyning with vsus, in the chiefeſt points of our religion, & diſſenting frō you, as I hauehave ſhewed before. And when there ſeemed to be feweſt, yet we beleeue, yt that God, yt could & did preſerue vntounto himſelf, in ye litle kingdom of Iſrael, in ſuch a miſerable time, asking Ahabs time was. 7000. yt there, had not bowed their knees to Baal: yt ye God, I ſay, euē whē popery ſeemed to hauehave preuailed moſt, according to the comfortable viſions, that Iohn had to that end, Apoc. 7. & 14, yet had preſerued vntounto him, in al the kingdomes, and prouinces of the world, infinite numbers, that yet neither in forehead nor hand, would beare the marke of the beaſt: & of all theſe we hope well alſo. Thirdly, euen concerning ſuch of our forefathers, as ſeemed to the world, to be of your religiō, we thinke a number alſo are ſaued. For euen amongſt them, there are .3. ſortes to be cōſidered. The firſt ſort are they, that liued and died in all your groſſe and erronious opiniōs. The ſecond are they, that though a long time they ſeemed to liue in them, yet ere they died, God cauſed to ſee the vanity thereof, at leaſt cōcerning your doctrine of iuſtificatiō; & ſo through the ſight of their ſins, in his mercy, he brought them to die, proteſting that they truſted not to be ſaued in part, nor in whole by their owne works, or by any other meanes, but onelyonly by his free mercy, through Ieſus Chriſt alone. The third ſort is of them, which though they were yours for ſome outward ceremonies, that they were contented to vſe wt you, & in that they held ſome other fond opinions with you; yet neuer ioined with you indeed, in ſeeking for ſaluation, little or much by any thing that you taught them to put their truſt in, yt way; but only looked for & beleeued, to attaine vntounto it, for that which Chriſt had done once for all for them, in his owne body. The firſt ſort are they only of whom there is feare. But of that number, we hope there hauehave beene but few in compariſon that is ſuppoſed. Of the other two ſorts, we hauehave a cō fortable hope, becauſe we know our God is moſt ready to receiue a ſinner, whenſoeuer he vnfeinedly repenteth, Ezech. 18. &c. And S. Paul hath taught vsus, that they that hold the foūdatiō Chriſt Ieſus, aright; though through ignorance, or other infirmity, they builde thereupon, hay, and ſtubble, yet in the end, they may be ſaued, 1. Cor. 3. Whereby eueryevery one, may eaſily perceiue, that we hope that moſt of our forefathers, by one of theſe means, or other, hauehave bene ſaued▪ & that for them, the bloud of Chriſt was ſhed vponupon the Croſſe, & that to the ſauing of infinite thouſand ſoules, though neuer a one of them that liued and died, fully of your religion in al points, be ſaued. And therfore very bad, and blaſphemous is your ſaying, as I cannot but tel you againe, yt then it had beene better yt he had not ſuffered at al. Hereby alſo you may ſee, that we groūd not the hope that we hauehave (as you imagine) concerning the ſaluation of our forefathers, vponupon their ignorance; but vponupon that faith that they liued and died in, or died in at the leaſt, to be ſaued ſolie, and wholie, fully and freely by the ſuffrings and obedience of Chriſt. For howſoeuer ignorāce may excuſe de tanto, yet it cannot de toto. That is, howſoeuer ignorāce may leſſen the offence, yet it cannot make an offence, no offence. And though we read, that he that knoweth his maſters will, and doeth it not, ſhal be beaten with more ſtripes; yet we read not, that hee that knoweth it not, and ſo doeth it not, ſhall not bee beaten at all. But rather we reade, that the Lord ſaieth, Pſalm. 95. They are a people that erre in their heartes, for they hauehave not knowen my waies, wherefore I hauehave ſworne in my wrath ſaying, ſurely, they ſhall not enter into my reſt. Indeed, in that that you hauehave more meanes now, to reclaime you, from your errours and hereſies, then euer your forefathers had, theſe many years; we thinke in trueth that it will be far eaſier, at the day of iudgement, for them, then for you: in that you hauehave ioined wilful ſtubbernes, to your other ſins. But, whatſoeuer come of it, this is moſt certaine, that whoſoeuer worſhippeth the beaſt, & his image, and receiueth his marke, in forehead, and hand, and ſo dieth; (for of ſuch there the holy Ghoſt ſpeaketh:) the ſame man ſhall drinke, of the wine of Gods wrath, and be tormēted for euer, in fire & brimſtone, before the holy Angels, and the Lambe, Apoc. 14. And this muſt ſtand, that he that beleeueth not in the Sonne, is condemned already; becauſe he beleeueth not in the onelyonly begotten Sonne, Iohn. 3. How many ſoeuer this ſentence hath within the compaſſe of it, thus it ſhall go with thē. This alſo we may not, nor cannot deny, but that there, by beleeuing in him, is meant beleeuing in him aright: and that we do not vnleſſe we count his name, the only name wherby we come to ſaluation, Act. 4. and that ſo, as in him, we thinke & beleeue, that al things are already prepared, Mat. 22. & therfore doe not ſuffer our ſelues, by any perſwaſion, to be brought, to ioyne any perſon, or thing, wt him in iuſtifying vsus before God, Gal. 5. Let men therefore take heed of liuing, or dying, without this true Chriſtiā faith, whatſoeuer they do, for without this, we are not in Chriſt; and if we be not in him, wee wither, and come to the fire in the end, as fruitles and dead braunches, Iohn. 15. And indeed, if we thus hauehave not him, wee can neither come by that life that is in him, Ioh. 5. neither can we poſſibly eſcape damnation, which is prepared for al thē, in the iuſt iudgemēt of God that doe not aright imbrace him, Ioh. 6. In this caſe therefore, in the name of God, let vsus not looke what our fathers hauehave done, but what they ſhould hauehave done. And let vsus learne rather to imitate thoſe forefathers, yea, though they were neuer ſo few; that hauehave liued and died in this faith; then thoſe others, that hauehave both liued and died, out of it. For we may aſſure our ſelues, that neither ignorance, imitation of forefathers, nor any thing elſe, wil or can exempt vsus, from that condemnation, that is due to ſuch as liue and die, thus in this foundamental errour, or hereſie.
It is too too childiſh that you infer of the condemnation of Hierom and Auguſt▪ and al that were in their times, by our religion: in that you ſaie they preached againſt Vigilantius, and the Arrians; againſt the one, for his not allowing the expoſition of the Doctors, and refuſing to honor the reliques of Saints: & againſt the other, for that they taught it was an offence, to pray for the dead. For firſt, you ſee, we doe not condemne any man, for eueryevery error; nay, we condēne nōe that liue and die holding aright the foundation; though otherwiſe, they hauehave had their errors. And ſecondly, though it were graunted, that Vigilantius & the Arrians taught theſe 3, points, & that we are like them in theſe; and that we hold them for things well done, and taught by them; whatſoeuer either Hierom or Auguſtine wrote againſt them; muſt it needs therupon follow, that either we, or they were deceiued, or elſe that Hierom & Auguſt. and their partakers be condemned? Nay we are not ſo haſtie to pronounce ſentence of condemnation, of them or any other, for ſuch errors: neither would you be ſo haſtie to gather ſuch concluſions, if you were wiſe. For you know well enough, that we make not theſe matters ſuch, as that either we thinke all muſt be ſaued that holde the one way, or all condemned, that hold the other. But in trueth you doe charge both Vigilantius and the Arrians with more, then I thinke you wil proue in haſt. For neither doe I read that Vigilantius was ſuch an enemy to the expoſition of Doctors; nor the Arrians charged with deniall of praier for the dead; neither thinke I, euer did you; and therefore it ſhould ſeeme here, you had no quotation. Againe, you iniury vsus herein; in that you would make your reader beleeue, that we refuſe all expoſition of the Doctors; which we neuer did. This onelyonly we doe, as they themſelues hauehave taught; examine their iudgements, and expoſitions by the Scriptures, which when we hauehave done, if we finde them therewith to agree, we eſteeme of them, as it becommeth vsus, and as well, and more then you. But this is your faſhion, vponupon your owne head, without proofe, to pinne vponupon them that you finde ſpoken againſt, by ſome ancient fathers, what you liſt, to make them like vsus. If Vigilantius taught that neither ſuch relickes of Saintes, as you make ſtore of, oftētimes, nor none at all, are to be honoured as you now honour them; it was no errour at al in him; and if it had beene that he had held but ſo, I am fully perſuaded, that rather Hierom would hauehave commended him for it, then otherwiſe. But indeed your groſſe honouring of them, was not then ſo much as thought of. Vigilantius his fault (as it ſeemeth by Hieroms charging of him) was, that hee woulde not allowe, that there ſhould ſuch coſt be beſtowed vponupon their tombes, and burials, or that any ſuch eſtimation, or reuerend regard ſhould bee had of their graues, and ſepulchers; as then, of louelove towardes them, and to ſtirre vp others to imitate them, beganne to be vſed. Wherein, if he went too far, wee ioine not with him. For wee very well allow, that there ſhould be a decent, and comelie buriall of them, and we eſteeme of their graues, and other certaine monumentes of them, as of thinges that appertaine to the deare children of God. But with you, to tie vertue either to the place of their buriall, or to any ſuch thing that they left behinde, and that in ſuch groſſe maner as you hauehave done, wee account it both folly, and blaſphemous impiety. It may bee, when you named Arrians, you meant Aerians, in whom you oft tell vsus, that to pray for the dead, was condemned for an hereſie. But if that were your meaning, wee tell you, that Epiphanius writing of them, ſaieth flatlie (howſoeuer they were ſo accounted of ſome) that praier for the dead, hath no manifeſt ground in the Scriptures, but rather leaned to the faſhion and traditions of men (as both of this and almoſt of all the pointes in controuerſie betwixt you and vsus, Soto cō tra Brentium, & Lind. li. 4. ſuae panopliae towards the end thereof, two great champions of your ſide, hauehave alſo plainely confeſſed) and ſo long you ſhall neuer be able to proue it an hereſie. Againe, here you muſt be admoniſhed, that eueryevery thing that an heretique is reported to hauehave held, is not by & by hereſie. For many ſound opinions often times, ſuch hauehave retained, and by that meanes, hauehave the eaſilier preuailed to ſeduce men, by their errours. And therefore you and your fellowes alſo, doe your readers wrong, in making thē to thinke, that becauſe ſuch an hereticke, & ſuch an hereticke, held this and that, wc we hold, therfore we are heretickes. For if you ſhould ſpeake to the purpoſe, you ſhould firſt proue the opinions that wee hold to be hereſies, and thē ſhew vsus that they were held and cōdēned, in ſuch and ſuch: or at the leaſt that the things that we hold were in them heretofore condemned for hereſies.
But to be briefe, you ſay if our Religion be the trueth, thē there hath beene neuer a Chriſtiā Doctour in the Church, ſince Chriſt: for all hauehave taught the contrary &c. Theſe are but your words, and the falſhood of this, I hauehave made to appeare in ſundry points already. And I would to god, the poor ſimple people could read their works indeede; for then howſoeuer it pleaſe you here to brag to the contrary, they ſhould and would perceiue, yt you hauehave in this wounderfullie abuſed them. For they ſhould ſee that for the moſt and greateſt queſtions, betwixt you and vsus, they are flat on our ſide: & in thoſe things wherein they ſeeme moſt to fauour you, that yet euen therein, there was and is very great difference betwixt you, and them. Wherfore, your vehement exhortation, that men ſhould not follow vsus, to condemne all Chriſtians that hauehave beene ſince Chriſt, which taught alwaies yours, & condēned ours, as hereſy; is ſutable to the foūdation that is, nothing but falſe & vaine. In like maner where you bring vsus here, as men (to auoide your argument of the condemnation of forefathers) that are ſo driuen to our ſhifts, that we hauehave nothing to ſay for appeaſing the people, but this, that their errours ſhall not bee imputed vntounto them, for that they did holde them of ſimple ignorāce, hauing no better inſtruction: in confuting this excuſe, you might hauehave ſpared your paines. For you may remember, that otherwiſe I hauehave blunted the edge of that argument. And for my part, I moſt willingly acknowledge that ignorance ſhall not, nor cannot exēpt any from condemnation, that know not (if they be of yeares, and otherwiſe capable of knowledge) the Lord Ieſus Chriſt aright to their ſaluation. For I know it is writen, that Chriſt ſhall come in flaming fire, rendering vengeance vntounto them that know not God, and which obey not the goſpell of Ieſus Chriſt, 2. Theſ. 1. and that howſoeuer by ſtrong deluſion vnderunder Antichriſt, mē ſhall be carried to beleeue lies; yet in the iuſt iudgement of God, becauſe they receaued not the louelove of the trueth, they ſhalbe damned, for not beleeuing the trueth, 2. Theſſ. 2. But you ſay, ſome hauehave vſed that excuſe of them, in conference with your ſelfe. I warrant you, not ſimply to excuſe ſuch as liued and died, in an Antichriſtian faith; that is, looking to be ſaued, not onelyonly through the merciemercy of God, in Chriſt Ieſus; but by other meanes alſo, which can not ſtand together with a ſound faith in Chriſt: but ſuch onelyonly, as either amongſt the fathers were preſerued from euer falling into this foū damental errour; or hauing fallen into it, had growen to deteſt it, & to imbrace a faith, ſeeking, and finding in Chriſt alone, the full cauſe of their ſaluation ere they died: of which two ſortes, beſides thoſe whom God did cleane preſerue, from the infection of popery, as hee did the 7000. in Elias his time, from the idolatry of Baal; euen in the greateſt floriſh of poperie, the Lord, no doubt of it, had infinite numbers. For I my ſelfe in my daies, hauehave knowen diuers, in whom, the leauen of popery, hath beene ſo rooted, that notwithſtanding neuer ſo good meanes hauehave beene vſed in their health and proſperity to reforme them, yet they hauehave perſeuered in an opinion, that they ſhould either not be ſaued; or that partly they ſhould be ſaued, for their own merits: who yet in time of ſickenes, or ſome other miſery, hauing therby beene brought as it were, before Gods preſence, and ſo to ſee the infinitenes of his iuſtice: hauehave ſtraight renounced all confidence in their owne works, with wōderful deteſtation of their owne blaſphemous and fooliſh conceit, that euer they truſted in them, or in any thing, but onelyonly in Chriſt Ieſus; who, now when they knew them ſelues, they would confeſſe, was he that alone muſt ſaue them, by that which he had done himſelfe, or elſe it would neuer be. And if the Lord thus mercifully reclaimed ſome that wilfully, and peeuiſhly a long time, had reſiſted the trueth, ſhining as it doeth now; why ſhould wee not much more conceiue, that hee ſhewed that mercy vponupon a number of our forefathers, who dwelt in that errour, of ſimplicity and ignorāce? That therein, & in a number of things elſe, they erred not; you ſay, but you ſhal neuer be able to proue. Neither can you vponupon our holding that they did erre, conclude, that either wee onelyonly are ſaued, or they al condemned. For I hauehave ſhewed how a nū ber, yea infinite numbers of them, might be ſaued, this notwithſtanding. As for your iudgement, that they neuer erred, ſo much as our diſciples; it is not material. For you are no competent iudge in this matter. And the reaſon of your iudgement; that we condemne the faith that the Catholique Church hath held, this 1500. yeares, and maintaine the olde rotten condemned hereſies; is a thing which by begging after this ſort, at our hands, (though therein, you be neuer ſo impudent, and ſhameleſſe a begger; as that way, in this your book your greateſt ſkill hath appeared) you ſhall neuer get. And therefore ſet your hearts at reſt; your words though they be neuer ſo lowde & ſtout, ſhall neuer make vsus yeelde you this for an almes. You muſt therefore proue your words true, and ſo make vntounto vsus euident demonſtration thereof; (which you ſhall neuer be able to doe) before we may yeeld vntounto you, that you hauehave any right at all to this.