Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 39
The XXXIX. Chapter.
IF that by a good and a right title your diſciples cal themſelues the children of God, this maketh me beleeue, that the ſaying of our Sauiour is fulfilled in them, the which is.*Luc. 16. The childrē of this world are wiſer in their generation then the children of light: To proue this true, wee ſee this dailie experience: for a wiſe worldly man when he doeth put out his money to gaine, he vvill not truſt the promiſe ſo ſoone of one or two or three, as hee vvill doe the bondes of a vvhole Towne or Cittie that ſhould warrant or aſſure his gaine. But you nor your diſciples hauehave not done thus, but rather the contrarie. It had beene better for you to hauehave firſt put your faith and truſt in God, beleeuing that he hath giuen his holie spirit, and declared the meaning as touching the Scriptures vntounto the Catholique Church,aWe build not our faith, religion, or hope of ſaluatiō of theſe mēs credits, but vpō the credit of the vndoubted worde of God, ſet down in the ſcriptures, which is for credit to be preferred before the credit of all men ſpeaking beſide, or contrary vntounto them. and not to hazard the hope of your ſaluation, putting it into the hands of Luther, Zuinglius, Oecolampadius, and three or foure other ſuch pelting merchantes, vvhichwhich hauehave newlie ſet vp ſhoppes at Wittemberge, Geneua & Loſane, vvhichwhich one of theſe daies we ſhal ſee bankeroutes, as their predeceſſours hauehave beene before them, the vvhichwhich after that they had deceiued the poore ſimple Catholiques,bBeware of dogs, Phil. 3. ergo take heed of this Romiſh barker, the beſt is, hee is but one that barketh, to bite & hurt, he hath ſmall or no power. and gained ſome of their ſoules for the deuill, they hauehave at the laſt ſold al their honeſtie and credit, ſo that at this daie, except that it be thoſe that reade the ancient hiſtories, no bodie elſe doeth remember, that euer they liued in the world. You are come now laſt of all to make vp their merchandiſe, but your credit can hardlie be good before God:cWill you neuer hauehave done with this bare & vaine brag? Shew this but once to bee true, and then we yeelde, and then brag and ſpare not. for you ſhall hauehave againſt you all the ancient Catholicke Church, which hath continued viſible ſince the comming of Chriſt vntounto this day, all the Doctours of all the vniuerſities, all the Empires, Kingdomes and priuate ſtate thoroughout al the worlde, which hauehave receiued and honoured this doctrine, that you call Papiſticall. And if you ſaie, that you will not truſt mē, but the verie word of the Lord, we agree to the like, that we ought al to beleeue the Scripture, but we varie about the interpretation, for you interpret it after one ſort, and we after another: you expound it after a new ſort, and the Catholicke Church doeth follovvdWhen it commeth to the trial it will be found, that our interpretation rather then yours, hath continuance frō all the ſound ancient Doctours, and the vndoubted Apoſtolicall …raditions. the olde expoſition of the ancient Doctours & traditions which you hauehave forſaken: or to ſaie the trueth, your Miniſters hauehave led the ſheepe aſtraie frō the old flocke, at the departing frō the which they hauehave beene al ſcattered abroad, ſome following Luther, ſome Caluin, ſome the Anabaptiſts, & ſo forth: for the which the Popes & kings, & others that hauehave had the gouernment of the Church ſhall anſwere at the laſt daie of iudgement, for as much as whileeErgo you hauehave had ſleepy Popes they ſlept, you hauehave come & ſowedweeds among the good corne. Then ſeeing you are the ſheepe that rome aſtraie, what excuſe can they make before God, that wilfully follow your ſteps? We confeſſe, that we are the poore ſheepe of God that hauehave continued with our old flocke ſtedfaſt & whole, as touching our religion, but very weake and ſickelyfAmend them for ſhame. as touching our maners: that is to ſay,gBut your wounds, ſores & ſicknes is grown ſo deſperat, that you will account none ſuch, but them that wil tel you, you are ſound and in health, where you are moſt ſicke. full of ſins & vices, attending ſome ſage phiſitions to heale vsus, & good paſtors to keepe vsus, caſting out the chaffe frō the corne, I meane, cutting off thoſe abuſes that are offenſiue; not to ſuch ſcrupulous conſciences as you hauehave, but vntounto him that doeth threaten thē for the careleſſe liues of their ſheepe, & ſo to continue in thathProue this once ſome of you, or elſe for ſhame neuer ſay it, almoſt in eueryevery leafe, for lack of matter as you doe, ancient faith that by ſucceſſion of paſtours we hauehave receiued from the Apoſtles.
The XXXIX. Chapter.
In this Chapter there is nothing but your old great words, & ſtout begging the maine queſtiō: that your Church is the true, & ancient Catholicke Church; that al the Chriſtiās great & ſmall, ſince Chriſt hauehave bene flat on your ſide: that you are the only men, that follow the ſound ſence of the ſcriptures, deliuered vntounto you, by the ancient doctors, and true paſtors of the Church: & that we are but two, or three in cōpariſon of you; ſprung vp yeſterday, & ſuch as you propheſie wil ſhortly grow banckerout, both of credit, and honeſty. This bladder ful of nothing but winde, is ſufficiently I hope, prickt, and let out already, by that which I hauehave ſaied in ſundry places before. Howſoeuer, I hope the reader is not ſo ſimple, as that (ſeeing in you neuer ſo great ſtore of theſe ſwelling wordes; (as long as he knoweth your aduerſaries denie them as ſtoutly of the other ſide: and he ſeeth you bring nothing but bare wordes, without proofe) he wil any whit be mooued therewith. And yet as not able a diſcourſe as this booke of yours is accounted: the greateſt ſtuffing that it hath, is onelie of ſuch vayne wordes as theſe aboue twenty times I am ſure without any proofe at al therein repeated. Indeed, if in al your life, you could proue but halfe ſo much, as confidently here you ſet downe, then you were a notable fellow indeede, and then truely we would ſtriue no longer with you. But in the meane time, ſeeing we know your ſpeeches are ſuch, as you can neuer proue, and that we are able againſt you, both to proue the falſhoode of yours, and the trueth of our owne; blame vsus not, if wee eſteeme not your words.
Yet, leſt you ſhould ſaie, that theſe likewiſe are but words in vsus, as the former hauehave beene in you; (though I ſee no reaſon to the contrary, but that our words containing a iuſt and true denial of yours, were ſufficient confutation thereof) I ſay, and will proue it, that you ſhew your ſelfe a man paſt al ſhame, in writing here, as you doe; that all the ancient Catholicke Church, which hath continued viſible, ſince the comming of Chriſt, vntounto this day; al the doctours of all the vniuerſities; all the Empires, kingdomes, & priuate ſtates, throughout al the world, are againſt vsus: for they hauehave al receiued & honoured that doctrine, that we count papiſticall. For firſt, ſuch is the newnes thereof, as I hauehave plentifully ſhewed in diuers places already, of this booke; that none of all theſe, for ſundry. 100. yeares, were once euer acquainted therwith: yea that diuers of your aſſertions, which are the very principalleſt of your opinions: as namely, your dotcrine of Tranſubſtantiation; of your Popes being in authority, aboue generall Councels; and of denying the cuppe to the lay people; are not yet of 400. yeares age, and continuance. And it is notoriouſly knowen, that in the daies of Gregory the 9, about the yeare of Chriſt, 1230 by occaſion of iniury and oppreſſion, offered by the Pope, to that Church; that the Greeke & Eaſterne Churches, departed quite from the Church of Rome, and neuer ſince (though it hath beene oft attempted) could be brought to hold communion therewith againe; inſomuch that in your conuenticle at Trent, you hauehave condemned them, for ſchiſmatical and heretical Churches. And theſe Churches, as it is noted in an ancient record, in the Church of Herford, differ from yours, at the leaſt in 29 articles. And they holde yours excommunicate, and an Apoſtata Church vntounto this day. And vnleſſe your reading be very ſmall, you cannot be ignorant, that Math: Pariſ: writeth, that the Patriarch of Conſtantinople at the Councell of Lyons, ſhortly after this breach, ſhewed, that of 30. biſhoprickes in Greece, the Pope had not three, that then held communion with him: and that all Antioch, and the Empire of Romania, to the gates of Conſtantinople, was gone quite from him. There is alſo extant in print, in ancient record, an Epiſtle writen, about ſeuen yeares after this breach began, in the yeare 1237; by one Germanus, Patriarch of Conſtantinople, vntounto the Pope; wherein not only he laboureth, to make him ſee that the occaſion therof was, that he tooke more vponupon him ouer thoſe Churches, then he ſhould; but amongſt other argumēts to perſuade him, to ſee his folly, he ſheweth him, that not onelyonly the Greeke Churches themſelues, but that al ſo the Aethiopians, Syrians, Hiberians, Alani, Gothi, Charari, with innumerable people of Ruſſia, and the mighty kingdome of the Vulgarians, held communion with his Church of Conſtantinople; and ſo by occaſion of this ſchiſme, had forſakē felowſhip with the Roman Church. And the Coſmographers write, that the iuriſdiction of the Patriarch of Canſtantinople, reacheth ſo farre, that all Greece, Miſia, Belgaria, Thraſia, Walachia, Moldauia, Ruſſia, Muſcouia, the iles of the Aegaean ſea, and Aſia the leſſe, bee vnderunder the ſame. It is alſo reported by authours of good credit, that at this day, vnderunder the other Patriarchs of Antioch, Alexandria, & Hieruſalem, and vnderunder the other, in the dominions of Preſbyter Iohn in Africa, there be infinit numbers of Churches, and Chriſtians, differing from yours, and ioining with ours in manie thinges. So that Churches alſo both in the Eaſt, North, and South, and that of very great amplitude, within the time, that you ſpeake of, hauehave profeſſed Chriſt, and yet hauehave neuer beene acquainted with moſt, or many at the leaſt, of the pointes, for the which, your religion is counted of vsus Papiſticall: in all which there hauehave beene ſome doctours, vniuerſities, Empires; Princes, and priuate men (no doubt) ſince Chriſt, before you wrote, that neither honoured, nor receiued your papiſtical religiō. Yea, but that merueilouſly you ouerſhot your ſelfe, you might hauehave remembred, that within ye time limited by you in theſe Weſterne partes, there hauehave beene euen vnderunder your Popes noſe, and in his greateſt ruffe, many doctours, vniuerſities, and ſome Emperours, kings, and priuate eſtates, that hauehave neither receiued, nor ſo honoured your religiō, which we cal papiſtical, as here, you would beare your reader in hand. For euen in theſe parts, and within the compaſſe of theſe times, hauehave bene (you know) Wickliffe, Hus, and Luther; & vniuerſities & kingdomes, good ſtore, hauehave had both your religion & Church, in defiance long before you wrote. He that readeth but the ſtories of Philip, & Lodovicke the laſt, (French kings) of Henry ye 4, & 5. & of ye 2. Fredericks, the 1, & 2, (Emperours) and the Cronicles of king Iohn here in England, and of 2, or 3, of his ſucceſſours; he ſhal eaſily perceiue, that much within the compaſſe of time, that you ſpeake of, both Empires, and Kingdomes, with their Emperours and Kings, hauehave beene far from making that reckoning of your popiſh Church and religion, that you here bragge of: or elſe doubtleſſe you muſt needs confeſſe, that your Popes hauehave beene vnreaſonable creatures, that hauehave ſo curſed and banned theſe men, as they hauehave, and which beſides hauehave cauſed ſuch infinite Chriſtian bloud to be, by warre, ſhed to hamper them. Theſe things conſidered, euen children may ſee not onelyonly the vanity, but groſſe falſhood, of theſe your wordes. For howſoeuer either here or elſe where, in this your booke, you would cauſe your reader to beleeue, that your Romiſh Church, is the catholicke Church of Chriſt, eueryevery one indeed may ſee, that in trueth it is but a particuler, and a petty Dioceſſe, in compariſon of the catholicke Church of Chriſt. For the reader muſt vnderſtand, that the Church of Chriſt is called catholicke; firſt, becauſe the religion that ſhee imbraceth, is that which hath beene at al times, & will be to the end, the true religiō of God; & ſecondly, becauſe the ſame Church in reſpect of the mēbers therof, eſpecially ſince the calling of ye Gentiles, is not to be limited or ſhut vp, within the compaſſe, of any particuler countries, but may vniuerſally be diſperſed amongſt all nations, and in al countreyes, where it pleaſeth the Lord. In neither of which ſences, can the Romiſh Church be truly accounted catholick. For neither is her doctrine that which the true Church of Chriſt embraced, & was in poſſeſſiō of for 4000 years & more: neither are ye boūds of ye Romiſh Church, vniuerſal; but euē as the Donatiſts ſhut vp ye Church in Africk, ſo do the Romaniſts within the cōpaſſe of a corner of the world, in cōpariſon of al the reſt, which they cut of, from the cōmunion of ye Church. And yet there is nothing more vſual with Maſter Ioh. de Albine, in this his book, thē to labour to coūtenāce ye Romiſh Synagogue, wt theſe two things, antiquity & vniuerſality. But as for vniuerſality, it may appeare by that which I hauehave ſaied, & by that which eueryevery one may eaſily cōceiue, if he cōpare thē ye profeſſe Chriſt, whō they reiect as heretickes, & ſchiſmaticks, wt thē that receiue & honour the popiſh religion; that it is now, and hath beene a long time, rather wt thē, whō they thus cōdēne, thē wt thēſelues. And as for antiquity, moſt certaine it is, that the Turks, ye Neſtorians, & the Circūciſers, may a great deale more iuſtly, brag therof, thē they. For ye Turkes hauehave beene in poſſeſſion of their full Mahometiſme, theſe 900 years, & ye hereſie of ye Neſtoriās hath continued theſe 1200, years, amongſt the Georgians. And the hereſie of them that ioine circūciſion with baptiſme continueth yet, in Africa, in AEthiopia vnderunder Preſbyter Iohn, & hath theſe 1500 years: whereas popery is not ſo old as the yoūgeſt of theſe, in that almoſt al the points therof, wherfore it is ſo called, hauehave beene deuiſed and brought in ſince, the youngeſt of theſe began. But put the caſe, that popiſh religion were ancient indeede, and had the greateſt part of the world to follow it: muſt it needs therfore follow, that it were the trueth, & the beſt way? No indeed. For who can deny that Gentiliſm or Paganiſh idolatry, whē the Apoſtles were ſent firſt, to preach the goſpel to the Gētiles, was very ancient? For it had welnigh continued then, from Noahs f…ould vntill that time. And neuer was popery, of ſo manie nations ſo vniuerſally receiued, as that was. And yet who is ſo ſimple, but he knoweth now for all this, that that was a way that led to deſtruction? And if the myſtery of iniquity beganne to worke in the Apoſtle Paules time, and yet Antichriſt the father thereof, was not quite to be aboliſhed, before the brightnes of Chriſts ſecond comming, as he plainely teacheth, 2. Theſſ. 2. it being withall propheſied, that the whore of Babylon (Antichriſts right patterne) ſhould ſit vponupon many waters (that is, rule ouer many people) and cauſe the kings and nations of the earth, to be drunk with the wine of her fornication, as it is Reuelat. 17. who ſeeth not that euen Antichriſtianity may be countenanced with great ſhew, both of antiquity, & vniuerſality, as certaine and good tokens, as the Romaniſts count theſe two, of the true Church of Chriſt. Which things conſidered, howſoeuer it pleaſeth Maſter Ioh. de Albine here to ieſt at vsus, as men like to the children of God in nothing, but in this folly, that contrary to the faſhion of the wiſe children of the world, we chuſe rather to truſt a few, then many; we are contented therein, to be like them ſtil, and ſo rather to chuſe to enter into the Arke with 8. perſons, Ge. 7. ſo to be ſaued: then to refuſe ſo to doe, with all the world beſides, & ſo to be drowned. And I would aduiſe him for al his wiſedome, to be ſuch a foole, as rather with two or three, to flie out of Sodom, with Lot Gen. 19; then with all the reſt to tarry behinde, and to be deſtroied with fire and brimſtone. For howſoeuer he count this folly, Chriſt who is wiſedome it ſelfe, hath charged his to ſtriue, to enter in at the ſtraight gate, though few go ye way, & many the other broad way. For that is the way that wil lead vntounto ſaluation, whereas, the other leadeth to deſtruction, Luke. 13.
But the men whom he nameth, Luther, Zuinglius, and Oecolampadius (though they be men whom we thinke wel of, and whoſe memories ſhal be famous in Gods Church (for al his blinde prophecie to the contrary) when the names of a thouſand ſuch as himſelfe is, ſhal bee either buried in obliuion, or infamous for their reſiſting of Gods trueth) are not the men vponupon whom wee build our religion. Theſe we account ſuch as in theſe later daies, God vſed to very good purpoſe, to reuiue, & further to publiſh, and make knowen the doctrine of trueth, then it was when they beganne firſt. But the men that we truſt and leane vntounto in this caſe, are thoſe holy men of God, and ſuch like, as Saint Peter ſpeaketh of, 2. Pet. 1; which ſpake as they were moued by the holy Ghoſt: & ſo hauehave left the will of God, for our full direction vntounto vsus, in the holy Scripture. And theſe, the ancient Chriſtians and Doctours for ſix hundred yeares after Chriſt, and infinite numbers ſince, euen downe vntounto the times of theſe, whom he here nameth, as I hauehave ſhewed in the fourth Chapter of this booke, and elſe where, togither with vsus, hauehave followed. And further then theſe writers of the canonical ſcriptures, hauehave led any of theſe, we doe not, nor meane not to follow thē. You ſhew therefore, Maſter Albine, but the nature of your Romiſh ſpirit, in your confident aduouching without all proofe, that theſe men you name, gained ſoules to the Deuill, and that they hauehave ſo fold their honeſty & credit, that few now know that euer they liued in the worlde. For beſides your raſh and vncharitable iudging of thē you ſpeake that which your owne heart tolde you was a lie. For, you could not bee ignorant, but that theſe mens names are knowen to thouſands, that neuer read their ſtories. But you ſay that you agree with vsus in not truſting of men, but in truſting to ye very word writē; but you and we vary about the interpretation: for we interpret it after one ſort, and you after another, we after a new ſort, and the Catholicke Church, whereby wrongfully ſtil, you meane your owne) doeth follow the olde expoſition of the ancient doctours, and traditions, wt we hauehave forſaken. Herein, you ſay more, then either you or any of your fellowes wil ſtand to. For when it commeth to the point, the greateſt champions of you confeſſe, that a number of the things. that are in controuerſie betwixt you and vsus, are without the cōpaſſe of the ſcripture: and therfore leaſt they ſhould be quite reiected, they vnderunder prop them wt the rotten prop (which yet they labour to make to carry ſome ſhew of ſtrength) of traditions, or of the word vnwriten. And in the other point, concerning interpretation; that therein we vary, it is true; but that the variety is, as you ſay, it is falſe. For we neuer refuſed the expoſition of the Catholicke Church, nor to vſe the helpe of her ſound and Catholicke Doctours, or traditions agreing with the word writē as helpeth the better to attaine to the right ſence therof by. Indeed, the interpretation of your new Apoſtata Church of Rome, her falſe doctours and traditions, becauſe they wil not ſtand with the plaine ſcriptures themſelues, we reiect. Otherwiſe, we are ready alwaies to proue our ſence, thereof, to agree with the ancient Church & her doctours, better then yours can. And as for ye variety amongſt vsus, of interpretatiōs, which you charge vsus withal; ſure we are, it wil neuer proue ſo great, as hath beene, and is amongſt you, or as is betwixt your interpretation, and that which was of them, 900. yeares ago: and therefore, for any thing you hauehave yet ſaied, you your ſelues are the rouing ſheepe frō the ancient ſheepfold; you are they which whiles men ſlept, hauehave ſowed cares amongſt the good corne: and which are the ſheepe ſicke in religion, as well as in maners; and not we. And therefore they that hauehave ioined with you, whoſoeuer they hauehave beene, are like at the day of iudgement, to ſmart for nothing more, then for taking part with you. And ſo to conclude this Chapter, whatſoeuer hitherto, you hauehave gained at the handes of the ſimple, by theſe your vaine and ſwelling wordes: you ſhall hereafter looſe ten times as much, amongſt them that are wiſe thereby.