Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26

Answer to John De Albines · Answer to discourse · 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26

p. 194The XXII. Chapter.

ALthough that by the teſtimonie of your owne doctours ye are condē ned, yet you doe ſtil maintaine your ill cauſe, ſaying, that ye ought to be receaued to preach the GoſpelaaStill herein you flatly bely & ſlander vsus. extraordinarilie,bbIf the ordinary way be thus by Paſtours and Biſhops, then few or none of your Prieſts hauehave entred the ordinary way, from whoſe ordering, Paſtours hauehave beene and be vſually ſhut out. that is to ſaie, without the commiſſion of the Paſtors & Biſhops, being thoſe that are ſent vsus by the permiſſion & ordinance of God. And you ſaie, to maintaine your commiſſion extraordinarie, that you hauehave the holie ſcriptures, which you doe alleage,ccThis obiection you will neuer be able to anſwere. the which alone ought in this behalfe to be of more credit, then al the miracles that euer the Apoſtles did. For it mate ſo chaūce, that by ſubtle deuiſes & impoſtures of the deuil, miracles maie be falſelie counterf… ted, but not the ſcripture which is the touchſtone of the trueth, as it ſhalbe ſeene by experiēce, whē the childe of perditiō, otherwiſe called Antichriſt ſhal come. For he, to confirme his ſaying, ſhall ſhew ſuch great ſignes and Miracles, that the verie elect ſhould be ſeduced, if it were poſſible. Now to anſwere vntounto this, which is a notable waie to deceiue the ſimple and vnlearned,ddNay we take not our cauſe iuſtified becauſe we alleadge ſcriptures, but becauſe by the rule of right interpreting, we be able to ſhew, that the true ſence thereof is of our ſide, which heretiques cannot doe, & therfore we ſtanding vponupon this as vponupon the foundation of our cauſe, and we being alwaies ready to yeelde, vnleſſe we can proue we truely alleadge them, all that you ſay in ſundry chapters following, to proue that heretiques hauehave alleaged them is needeleſſe and beſide the point. I ſaie, that if the alleaging of Scriptures ſhould maintaine you, and fauour your cauſe ſo much as you doe ſaie, our ſide were driuen to hard ſhiftes: for then we might bee blamed before the ſeat of God, not onelie for not receiuing your Gospell, but likewiſe, for refuſing the Gospell of diuers heretikes, that hauehave beene manie hundred yeares before you vvere borne: vvhichwhich did al alleage the Scriptures, as it doeth appeare by the three paſſages vvriten vntounto the**Cap. 6.10. & 12. Hebrewes aboue mentioned. By the vvhichwhich the Nouatians did pretende, to verifie, that the merciemercy of God vvas denied vntounto him, that did offende after his Baptiſme, ioined with that that is writen in the firſt booke of the Kings. If man (ſaied the good Helye) doeth ſinne agaynſt man, hee maie agree with him agayne: but if hee come to offende God, who ſhall hee bee, that ſhall pray for his ſinne? Did not the Arrians alleage Scriptures, to p. 195maintaine, that Chriſt vvas not God and man? Yes ſurelie,eeHow or which proue you this? as manie places or more then the Catholikes. Saint Auguſtine doeth vvrite in his booke De haereſibus, ad quod vult deum, That there vvas in his time a certaine ſect of heretikes that taught, that for a man to be ſaued, hee ought to be gelded. And they did alleage the nineteenth Chapter of S. Mat. where Chriſt doeth praiſe the Eunuches, which hauehave gelded themſelues for the kingdome of heauen. And if a man were dispoſed to forge another hereſie like this, hee might ſoone finde ſcripture to maintaine it, beeing ill interpreted: for he doeth commande, that wee ſhould pull out our eies, and to cut off our handes and feete euerie time, that through them we are ſcandalizated: for (ſaieth he) it were better for one to enter blinde or lame into the kingdome of heauen, then to be condemned, hauing all our members: ſo that, taking theſe words as they are plainlie writen, we ought to cut the members from our bodie.ffIt ſeemes you hauehave beene brought vp in this trade of miſalleadging the Scriptures, you are ſo cunning in matching herein wicked heretiques. Beſides this, he that would forge an hereſie ſomewhat more pleaſant and eaſie, one might ſoone doe it: the which is, that for to goe to Paradiſe, we hauehave no neede of hoſe, ſhooes or money becauſe that our Sauiour did ſo commaund it to his Apoſtles. One maie likewiſe proue by the Gospell, that we hauehave no neede of Magiſtrates nor other Superiours, foraſmuch as our Sauiour hath ſaied, that one is your Lord and maſter, namelie Chriſt. Moreouer, a man maie proue by ſcripture, that one ought to retaine nothing vntounto himſelfe, if anie other demaunde it, foraſmuch as it is writen, If one demaund of you your coate, you ought not onelie to giuegive it, but your dublet alſo: and if one giuegive vsus a box on the eare, it is not inough to take it patientlie, but we muſt turne the other cheeke alſo.ggAnd to this hereſie, you come maruellous neare, in your cap. 34. Iouinian a great heretike, did teach, that a Chriſtian after his baptiſme doeth no more offend God, yea, that hee could not, although he would. Who would not hate ſuch a blasphemous errour as this? yet if the alleaging of the Scriptures ought to ſuffiſe, he maie be preferred before Maſter Caluin as more ancient: for hee doeth alleage Saint Iohn in his firſt**Cap. 5. Epiſtle, vvho ſaieth: Wee knowe, that hee that is borne of God, doeth not ſinne, for the generation of God doeth preſerue him, and the ill ſpirit ſhall not touch him. And in the ſamehhThat is a curled gloſſe that corrupts the text. Iohn ſpeaks not of the ſacramentall regeneratiō, but …f effectuall regeneration by the ſpirit, which alwaies accompanies not the other. EueryEvery man that is borne of God, that is to ſaie, baptized, hee doeth not ſinne, for the ſeede of God doeth dwell in him, and hee cannot ſinne, for he is borne of God. Saint Auguſtine doeth write in his eightie nine Epiſt. ad Hilarium, that the Pelagians and Manichees, among other hereſies that they did maintaine, they ſaied, that it vvas impoſſible for rich men to enter into Paradiſe, vntill they had ſolde all their p. 196goods, and giuen them to the poore, and that all things ought to be commō. The which doctrine is eaſilie to be maintained by the Scripture ill vnderſtood: for**Mat. 10. & 16.Matt 10 our Sauiour doth ſay, that for to be his diſciples, we muſt forſake and renounce all that we hauehave, in teſtimony of the which, the firſt Chriſtians at Ieruſalem did ſell all their poſſeſsions, and preſented the money of them to the Apoſtles to giuegive to the poore. And that that is worſe, the Adamites did maintaine a greater errour then this, and more brutiſh, the which is, that al mens wiues ſhould be common, and they did cal this the true Gospel, and the pure word of God, alleaging for it the firſt and eight of Genelis, where God doeth ſay: Increaſe and multiplie, and repleniſh the earth. If you doe ſay, that this is a fooliſh opinion, I confeſſe it to be ſo: but thatiiThis is falſe, that Church condemneth popery, for this hereſie, Ziſca, Hus and their followers cōdemned before you. very Church which hath condemned this hereſie of theirs, doeth likewiſe condemne yours. When the deuill determined to fight with Chriſt, he thought he could no wiſe aide himſelfe ſo wel, as with the holy ſcripture; perſwading him, that the beſt way for him to ſhew himſelfe to be the ſonne of God was, to breake his necke, caſting himſelfe downe from the pinnacle of the Temple. And he did alleadge this text ſaying,**Pſal. 90.Ps 90 as it is writen: That the Angels of God ſhould ſo preſerue him, that he ſhould not hurt his foote againſt the ſtones, following that Dauid ſaied. And if I ſhould go about to write al the places of Scripture that the heretikes hauehave alleaged, to maintaine their horrible errours, I thinke ſurely, I might make a bigger booke then the Bible.

The XXIII. Chapter.

YFaaO you are your crafts maſter, a man may ſee, in wrong alleaging the Scriptures. that the ſonne doe hate the father, or the father the ſonne: or if the wife doe hate the huſband, or the huſband the wife, they may take the word of God, ill vnderſtood, to defend their cauſe: for he doeth commaunde vsus, that we ſhall hate thoſe that are neareſt vntounto vsus, as vnderunder the paine of not entring into Paradiſe, if we doe contrarie. But this ought to be vnderſtoode, that we ought not to prefer the louelove of anie creature, how neare ſoeuer they be to vsus, before the louelove of God. In like maner, he that will ſaie, that we ſhould not eat of the bloud of thoſe beaſts that are ſmoothered, he may ſoone alleadge the ſcripture for it, which doeth ſaie, that at the coūcel that the Apoſtles held at Hieruſalē, beeing preſent the holie Ghoſt, this ordinance was made, as we read in the. 15. Chapter of the Actes. And if that one ſhould take in hand to bring al the places of ſcripture, that the heretikes hauehave alleaged to maintaine their opinions, I dare boldlie ſaie, that he ſhal finde it an endleſſe piece of worke. For among ſo great a number of p. 197falſe Prophets, there hath bene verie few, or almoſt none, but they hauehave ſought to maintaine their opinions by Scripture, drawing the places, as it were, by violence, to a depraued and a corrupt ſenſe, beeing this the maner of interpreting of the Scriptures, called at this daie the pure word of God, by thoſe that hauehave profeſſed to be as long as they liue, enemies to the trueth.aaYou ſhould hauehave ſaied in his firſt come & 2 booke. The learned and auncient Doctour Epiphanius, in his firſt booke againſt hereſies, doeth alleage, as touching this matter, a verie familiar example, ſaying, that if ſome good Caruer had made the image of a king, adorned with manie Iewels and precious ſtones, and that another ſhould come afterward, and ſhould take the ſame Iewels and precious ſtones, and make vvith them the image of a Fox or a Dogge, and that he ſhould ſaie: beholde, here is the Image of a king, would not euerie bodie laugh him to ſcorne, and ſaie, that he did it in mockerie, or els, that he were mad? Yes ſurelie: for although they bee the ſame Iewels, and that verie ſtuffe, wherewith was made the Image of the king, yet, becauſe that this other vvorkeman hath taken them awaie, and faſhioned them after another ſorte, it ought no more to bee called the image of a king, but the picture of a Fox or a Dogge. Euen thus is it vvith the holie Scriptures, vvhichwhich were left vsus by the Apoſtles and Prophetes, for to paint in rich colours the Image of the great king of glorie:bbThis is euen your ow…e dealing with the ſcripture vp & downe, when you would confirme Popery therewith. but ſeeing that you take thoſe precious ſtones from the image of this king, and doe appropriate them vntounto the Image of a Foxe, making them ſerue to cloake your hereſies vvithal, it ought no more to be called the worde of God, nor the holie Scripture, but the word of men, & falſe doctrine. And therefore, if you vvill hauehave it to beare the firſt name you muſt ſet it in the firſt eſtate, that is to ſaie,ccThis is certaine and therefore ſcripture truſt interpret ſcripture, and not your Romiſh ſpirit. that it ought to be interpreted by him, that did firſt indite it. It is not by the will of man, ſaieth S. Peter. Epiſt. 2. Ca. 1. That the prophecy was brought, but by the inſpiration of the holy Ghoſt, that holie perſons hauehave ſpoken &c. I know wel, that you attribute the intelligence of the ſcripture vntounto your Sinagogue.ddThis we doe not take vpō vsus. But how ſhal we beleeue, that the holy Ghoſt doeth dwel more in you, thē in al the vniuerſal Church, which hath continued frō the paſſion of Chriſt vntil this time? I pray, doe ſo much as anſwere me, if you my maſters be the lodging of the holie Ghoſt,eeWhither our alleaging of thē agree or not with the holie Ghoſt it ſelfe ſpeaking in the ſcriptures, we are contented to let alwaies the true Church of Chriſt iudge. where did he make his reſidence before ye were borne? I know already your anſwer, the which is, In the hearts of the faithful. And where were thoſe faithful? Marie, where the holy Ghoſt was. Anſwer thus ſtil, & ye ſhalbe ſure, that ye ſhal not be ouertakē: for it is as good as to play Handie dandie, & ſoye ſhal accompliſh the olde Prouerbe the which ſayeth: It is as farre from Douer to Caleis, as from Caleis to p. 198Douer. But to the ende that all the world maie ſee, the great hazarde of eternal damnation that thoſe run into, that are ſo readie to beleeue euerie bodie, thinking that they are aſſured of their health, foraſmuch as thoſe that ſeduce them, ſaie, behold, there is the ſcripture, it is the pure word of God & the verie gospel, I wil ſet forth ſome hereſies, that hauehave beene in times paſt condemned by the catholicke Church: the which notwithſtāding hauehave beneaaThis you can neuer doe. aſwel, yea & more largelie confirmed by Scripture, then you can confirme anie of yours.

The XXIIII. Chapter.

THe Catholicke Church continuallie hath faithfullie holden, & doeth holde, that our Sauiour Ieſus Chriſt is true God and man, hauing taken natural fleſh in the wombe of the virgin Marie, wholie like vntounto ours, as touching the corporal eſſence, that is to ſaie, excepted onelie ſinne, the vvhichwhich bodie he did forme of the verie fleſh and ſubſtaunce of his mother, by the operation of the holy Ghoſt, vvho hath vvrought ſo notable and excellent a vvorke, that tvvo contrary or diuers natures are miraculouſlie ioined & vnited in one perſon, without confuſiō or conuerſion of the one ſubſtance into the other, but by coniunction & vnion of them both, called by the diuines, Hipoſtatique. This doctrine hath euer beene receiued and holden by the Church in equal degree of trueth and reuerence, with the reſt of the points of religion, which now you ſeeke to aboliſh. And notwithſtanding this, diuers Miniſters and Preachers, deriued from the ſacred conſiſtories of Valentinus, Photinus, Manes, Theodorus, Neſtorius, Apollinaris, Eutichus, Macharius, Eutiocheus, beſides a great number of other famous heretickes, that I cannot here name, hauehave ſought to teach the contrary, ſaying, that they were ſent from him that ſent the Apoſtles, to reforme the Church,bbThus at your pleaſur… you father vponupon theſe heretiques, to make them reſemble vsus, that, the contrary whereof, the ancient fathers attribute vntounto thē, namely that they ſhunned trial by the ſcriptures, that they accuſed them of vnſufficiency & darkenes, and ſo fled to vnwriten traditions, and fond reuelations euen as you doe for al the world. not by the Traditions of men, which you cal Papiſtical, but by the pure word of God. For euen like you, my maſters, did Valentinus & his fellowes begin the reformed Church, taking vponupon them the correction of al the Magiſtrates and Fathers in times paſt, ſaying, that they did abuſe the people, becauſe that they taught, that Ieſus Chriſt had taken fleſh and bloud of the Ʋirgin Marie, ſaying, that this vvas a great errour: the vvhichwhich ought to be reformed, and that the people ſhould beleeue, that he brought his bodie from heauen, and that he cauſed it to paſſe through the wombe of the Virgin Marie, as the water doeth through the chanell. This Gospel was verie ſtraunge, yet the ſaied Valentinus did not want Scripture, as you hauehave, to confirme it, p. 199interpreting it, euen as you doe interpret here in France. He did alleage for his text the third of Iohn, where Chriſt doeth ſaie: No perſon is aſcended to heauen, but hee that did deſcende from heauen. And therefore did he maintaine, that ſeeing Chriſt is in heauen, and deſcended from heauen, that he tooke no fleſh of the virgin Marie. Neſtorius another notable hereticke, did lincke his Gospell to Apollinaris opinion in this caſe, ſeperating the manhood from God, and ſaying that the ſonne of man ought not to be called God: for ſeeing (ſaied Apollinaris) that this man is deſcended from heauen, it doeth follow, that hee tooke no fleſh of the virgin: & beſides this, Chriſt ſaiethe**Ioh. 6.John 6 I am deſcended from heauen, not to doe my will, but the will of my father. Here hee doeth not ſpeake, as one that is God for if it were ſo, he would hauehave no other wel, but the will of his father, and ſo he doeth speake like a man. And he ſaieth, that he is deſcended from heauen: for the which cauſe, this ſame Valentinus did take the concluſion of this Gospel to his aduantage: for the third authoritie, that is writen in the firſt to the Corinthians, where Saint Paul ſaieth: the firſt man is of earth earthlie, the ſecond is of heauen heauenly. The which paſſage or place is as fit to ſerue Valentinus opinion, as all the places that you, and all thoſe that hold your opinion, can alleage.

The XXV. Chapter.

ANother Miniſter likewiſe called Apollinaris followed after theſe, ſent by the ſaied maſter, & yet according to his ſaying, he did preach the pure word of God, affirming that the Church ought to bee reformed, which had beleeued, that the two natures were cōtained in Ieſus Chriſt, & that the true religion was, to beleeue, as it is writen in the 1 of Iohn, that the word was indeed become fleſh, or cōuerted into fleſh: And to confirme this, he did alleage the ſaied place, where S. Iohn doeth ſay: And the word was made fleſh: & whē the catholickes did reply againſt him, ſaying that the verbe or word tooke fleſh, & not as touching the conuerſion of one ſubſtāce into another: he did fortifie his Goſpel with another text, where S. Iohn doeth write of the mariage at Canaa, where the water was chāged into wine, that is to ſaie, as touching the very ſubſtance of the water which vvas turned into wine: Euen ſo ſaieth he, that it became at the verie Incarnation of Chriſt, alleaging that that we hauehave ſaied, And the word was made fleſh. Arrius, which was the moſt famous hereticke that euer hath bene, did pretēd to verifie another goſpell: & his was, that our p. 200Sauiour Chriſt had not taken at his incarnation, a perfect ſoule, another men hauehave, but that he had onelyonly a body, and that his diuinity did ſupplie the abſence of his ſoule. Of this opinion was Apollinaris, Theodorus, Moſſneſtenus: and Neſtorius came after, and they did blame the Catholick Church, becauſe it did teach the ſaied vnion, called, as I hauehave ſaied, Hipoſtatique, that is to ſaie, of the two natures in one perſon. And they did alleage for their argument a verie ſubtil reaſon, the which was, that God did inhabite within the body of our ſauiour, as he did within a Temple, that is to ſay, by grace, and not by being vnited togither. And therefore, euen as it were a great folly, to ſaie that God is a Temple, that ſo it is to ſaie, that God is a man. This Goſpell did ſeeme verie new, yet did not they want Scripture to maintaine it,aaThat is not becauſe we hauehave not plainer places rightly alleaged for proofe of our religion, but that in Gods iuſt iudgement, ſuch as you, hauehave eies and ee not. and that more plainer, then euer I could ſee anie place, to maintaine your hereſies. Chriſt did ſaie vntounto the Iewes.**Joh. 2.John 2 Vndoe this Temple, and in three daies I will build it againe. He meant it by the Temple of his bodie, ſaieth S. Iohn. Then the bodie of Ieſus Chriſt is the Temple of God, & God is not his temple. See whether this be not a notable argument to deceiue the ſimple man, that is not vſed to read, how the doctours expound theſe hard places. And moreouer they did alleage S. Paul in the firſt to the Colloſs. where hee doeth ſaie, that the plenitude or fulnes of diuinitie doeth dwell in Ieſus Chriſt corporallie, they do alleage this place greatly to their purpoſe, to proue, that God isbbIn him as in: left out I thin e. a Temple, that is to ſaie, by grace, & not being vnited. For the third place, they take the 8. of Iohn, where Chriſt doth ſay: He that hath ſent me, is with me, and he hath not left me alone. And therefore Theodorus & his fellowes did conclude, that there was no more vnion betweene the diuinity & humanity of our Sauiour, then there is betweene God & vsus. Of the which**^c 1. Cor. 5.1 Cor 5 S. Paul doeth ſpeake, where he ſaieth: hee that is ioined to God,ccWell quoted, you would hauehave ſaied. 6. is made one ſpirit with him.

The XXVI. Chapter.

IT doeth ſuffiſe, that one maie ſee by theſe fellowes, how ſoone one that is ill dispoſed may alleage ſcripture in corrupt ſenſe, to maintain ſuch hereſies as theſe, the which I will not ſtaie to confute: for (thankes be to God) they doe not raigne now, for they hauehave periſhed and their authours,aaThis is but a blind Prophetes dreame. as you ſhall and your followers, if yee doe not repent in time. And beſides this, our Doctours hauehave fullie anſweredbbIt is wel yet that you wil confeſſe thus much. by textes of Scriptures theſe olde hereſies, as you maie ſee in al the ancient eccleſiaſticall writers, and confuted them, not onelyonly with pithie reaſons, but vvith the p. 201true worde of God, and the authoritie of diuerſe generall councels. And if I hauehave noted here ſome part, both of their authours, and of them, to ſhew, how they did ſeeke to confirme their damnable opinions, I doe it, only to warne the ſimple people, that they ſhould not ſo ſoone giuegive eare to falſe Paſtours, which hauehave nothing in their mouthes but the holie ſcripture, and the pure word of God, couering the cuppes of their poiſon with the gold and pretious ſtones, which they hauehave taken from the image of the eternall king, to paint thoſe ſubtill Foxes, that will leade them all to damnation. And therefore in the name of God I doe deſire thoſe, that are not much vſed to reade the Scriptures, nor to heare how the Church and the doctours doe expound the hard places,aaSo doe we, but not to driue thē from reading thē, but to ſhew them, hat they muſt be read and ſearc…ed diligently. to beware, how they reade them, for feare of falling into errour, taking onelie the letter, which manie times hath a contrarie ſence to that, that is outwardlie writen. For if ſo manie men of great learning & excellent vnderſtanding hauehave found ſuch great rocks in this rough ſea, which hauehave manie times ouerthrowen their ſhippes: how dangerous then muſt it needes bee vntounto thoſe, that will take it in hande, ſo doubtfull a nauigation, hauing little skill or none at all. But as for you my maſters of the contrarie ſide, you can ſaile with all tides & all windes, giuing the gouernance of the ſhippe or the guiding of the ſterne, without conſiderationbbThis is a meere ſlander. to all kinde of people. We hauehave at this daie in France (I will not ſaie in England) manie that hauehave the holie ſpirit, Interpreters of the ſcriptures: And for ſooth, what are they? Mary, Pedlers, Coblers, Tanners, Bankrouts, Runnegates, & ſuch others: which hauing no other liuing,ccHere the authour bewrayeth himſelfe rather to hauehave beene an Engliſh man, then a French. For when this ſhould be wr…ten there were no Lord Biſhops in France to make ſuch, but papiſts. ſue to my Lord Biſhop, and hee makes them miniſters, beeing not one of them, but hath the holie ſpirite:ddAll this is but ſlanderous rayling & lying, for we doe not, ſay or thinke thus: but cry vponupon Biſhop, that they admit no ſuc vnfit me…, and we call vponupon ſuch, rather humbly to content them ſelues with the places of earners, then to preſume, without ſufficient knowledge, to be teachers. for aſſoone as they can ſaie, the Lorde, and raile vponupon the Pope, the Biſhops, and all the learned men that hauehave beene in times paſt, Oh, theſe are great doctours, no place of ſcripture to them is hard, all the anciēt doctors were men, & the generall councels did erre. I knowe, that you doe maintaine your opinion with the ſaying of**^e John. 8.John 8 Chriſt, alleaging it as other hereticks hauehave done, the which is, That the heauenly father hath hid theſe high and profound thinges from the great Clerkes, and hath reuealed them vntounto the meeke and humble.

This is true, but it ought to be vnderſtoode, to the humble and meeke of ſpirit, and not to thoſe which truſt ſo much to their owne wittes, beeing puffed vp with arrogant ignorance, that they thinke to know more in three daies reading, then the doctours could in fiftie yeares ſtudie, faming themſelues to be like the Apoſtles, as if that God, gouerned by their appetites, did ſend euerie monethmonth the feaſt of Pentecoſt.ccMat. 11. you ſhould hauehave ſaied.Matt 11

p. 202The XXII, XXIII, XXIIII, XXV, & XXVI. Chapter.

NEither our owne Doctors, nor any thing els that yet you hauehave ſaied (for all your great brag) hauehave any force either to diſproue that lawfulnes of our vocation, or to condemne our religiō. Neither is it true, that we ſtand ſo much vponupon our extraordinary calling, as you would inſinuate to your reader. For we tel you, that if you take ordinary calling in your owne ſence, if ther be any good at al, in that Wickliffe, Iohn Hus, Luther, Bucer, and the reſt that hauehave bene the firſt & formoſt in theſe late daies in detecting the errours of the papacy, and in renuing the light of the goſpel, had that kinde of calling. And as for the reſt ſince, they hauehave had a better ordinary calling thē that, in that it hath bene more agreeing to the order of calling by the Apoſtles and primatiue Church. But in that, to expreſſe what you meane by our extraordinary calling (you ſay) that therby you meane a calling without commiſſion of the paſtours and biſhops &c. I perceiue that therefore it is, that you charge many of our miniſters to preach the goſpel extraordinarily, becauſe (howſoeuer otherwiſe they had, before they tooke vpō them any dealing in the miniſtry, the ordinary calling allowed of in the reformed Churches of Chriſt, where they were to exerciſe the ſame) they tooke not firſt any of your popiſh orders, at the hands of ſome of your popiſh lord biſhops, after your popiſh maner. In which ſort I graunt you, many of our miniſters hauehave an extraordinary calling: but then I ſay vntounto you againe, that their extraordinary calling (hauing an eie to that order that Chriſt and his Apoſtles left in this caſe vntounto the Church) is more ordinary, then the ordinary calling that you ſpeake of. And therefore though their calling of late daies here amongſt vsus, hath not bene according to your order, & that they hauehave neither beene choſen by your paſtours, nor had impoſition of hands of your Lord biſhops, yet you cannot ſay truely, that any of them take vponupon them extraordinarily, that is, as you expoūd it, without the commiſſion of the paſtours and biſhops to preach the Goſpel. Name the man, time, and place, you cā not when and where, any that is accounted amongſt vsus a ſoūd preacher of the goſpell, hath either ſayed, that thus hee ought to be receaued to preach the goſpell, or hath attempted ſo to doe. For it p. 203is generally held and receiued of al the Churches, that profeſſe the goſpell, and ſo lykewiſe is their vniforme practiſe, that none be ſuffered to take vpō them to preach the goſpel, vnleſſe it be knowen and ſufficiently appeare, that by the ordinary calling of ſome according to the order of the Church, where hee is ordered, he be ſufficiently authoriſhed ſo to doe. And wel knowen it is, that there is no Church that profeſſes the Goſpel indeed, but the order thereof is, that none meddle in the miniſtry therein, without commiſſiō (as it pleaſeth you to ſpeake) either from ſome conueniēt number of paſtours, or from ſome biſhop, or from both, by the order of that church appointed to looke to, and to take care of that buſines. As for the Anabaptiſts, a captaine whereof you named in the former Chapter, we know, that in their fantaſtical ſpirit, they both hold and practiſe, as here you charge vsus, but therin and therfore we diſlike & condemne them as much as you. And you know we renounce communion with them, we coūt them heretickes, & therfore ſundry of vsus purpoſely hauehave writ large and vehement bookes againſt them: you doe vsus therfore great wrong to charge vsus with that w^c is their fault, & which you cānot proue to be ours. But you wil ſay, I am ſure (for in your former Chap. you ſeeme to deriue Mūcer the Anabaptiſt his petigree frō Luther) that we may worthely ſo be charged, for they are ſuch as ſpring of and from vsus. But herein againe you offer vsus as great wrong, as the ſeruants of the good ſeeds man that ſowed only good ſeed in his field, ſhould hauehave done him, if they had ſaied, that the tares that came vp therewith in the ſame field, had beene there ſowed by him: becauſe when Chriſt his Apoſtles and faithfull miniſters had firſt preached the goſpel, there were foūd in the ſame age, ſpringing vp with the ſame, & amongſt the profeſſours therof, Ebionites, Cerinthians, Nicolaitans, Simoniſts, and ſundry other fantaſtical heretickes, as Hymeneus, Philetus, Hermogines and Phygetus: was it any reaſon therefore that Chriſt or any of his faithfull miniſters, or that the goſpel it ſelfe ſhould be charged with their fond cō ceits? And yet as abſurd & ſenceleſſe as this kinde of dealing were, it is both here with you oft in this your booke, & vſuall is it with all of your ſpirit, this now for want of better matter againſt vsus, by this means with the ſimple people to labour the diſcredit and diſgrace both of vsus, our churches, and religion.

But you content not your ſelfe w^t falſely charging vsus to ſay, y^t we ought to be receiued to preach the goſpel extraordinarily, but alſo p. 204you lay to our charge, that we ſeeke ſtill to defend an ill cauſe, and an extraordinary commiſſion. This you onelyonly ſay, as your maner is, but neither proofe nor ſhadow of proofe you bring, neither indeede can you. For our cauſe is the very trueth, and our commiſſion is but that ordinary commiſſion of teaching, and confirming the ſame vntounto men, that Chriſt hath left by his owne ordināce to all his faithfull miniſters vntounto the worlds ende. And for proofe hereof we appeale indeede to the holy ſcriptures, which in this caſe euen for the reaſon by you alleadged, wee are not aſhamed to confeſſe to be the ſound touchſtone of trueth, and to be preferred in credit before miracles. Yet you ſome thing amplifie and adde vntounto our ſpeech, in that you ſay we affirme, that the ſcriptures as they are alleadged by vsus alone, ought to bee of more credit then all the miracles wrought by the Apoſtles. Well, this our reaſon, to iuſtifie our cauſe and commiſſion, you ſay is a notable way to deceaue the ſimple and vnlearned. I wonder that you were not aſhamed and affraied ſo to write. For you cannot be ignorant, that to confute errour, to proue trueth, to exhort to vertue, and to dehort from vice, Chriſt and his Apoſtles, and ſo from time to time, the ancient fathers, what aduerſaries ſoeuer they had to deale withal, vſed alwaies to flie to this touchſtone, and for the moſt certaine concluding of their purpoſe, did alleadge ſcripture: but your ſhift will be, that theſe alleadged the ſcripture rightly, which you ſpeake not of, and we alleadge the ſcripture corruptly and in a wrong ſenſe, & therefore you would hauehave your words in all this your diſcourſe againſt our alleadging of ſcripture, to bee taken as writen not ſimply againſt alleadging of ſcripture, but againſt alleadging it as we doe. Then I anſwer, that that you ſhould hauehave proued, that we alleadge the ſcripture in a wrong ſenſe, but this you hauehave not once gone about: only you proue that bare alleadging of ſcripture cannot, nor may not ſo countenance our cauſe as we pretēd, for that ſundry heretickes hauehave countenanced their hereſies by alleadging ſcripture, and that often very plentifully. About this you ſpend ſundry Chapters, and withall to ſhew your ſelfe to be able, if you liſt, to be a cunning in wreſting of the ſcriptures as any of the heretickes you mention: all which is to no purpoſe, vnles withall you had proued (which you ſhall neuer be able to doe) that we alleadging them, doe alleadge them ſo likewiſe. For we are not ſo ſimple or ignorāt, that we know not, that the ſcripture hath beene and may be miſalleadged, as you write, and therefore we neuer go p. 205about to perſwade the people, that they muſt and ought to beleeue vsus for our bare alleadging of ſcripture: but for that by the ſound rules of interpreting of them, we proue forcibly and inuincibly vntounto their conſciences, that we alleadge them according to their true and natiue meaning. We call vponupon them with Chriſt to ſearch the ſcriptures themſelues Iohn 5, 39. and with Paul we exhort them ſo to trauaile therein, as that they may hauehave the worde of God dwell euen in themſelues plentifully in all wiſedome. Coloſſ. 3.16. that ſo according to the commended example of the noble men of Baerea Act. 17.11. and the doctrine of S. Iohn, they may trie the ſpirits of them that would ſeeme to teach them a right, before they beleeue them, 1. Iohn 4.15. we confeſſe gladly with Peter 2. Epiſt. cap. 1. 20. 21. that no propheſie nor part of the ſcripture, is of any priuate interpretation, and all ſuch interpretations we count and iudge priuate and humane (whoſoeuer gyues or allowes them) that are not indeede ſoundly agreeing with the minde of the authour of the ſcripture, the holy Ghoſt. And therefore we hold and teach, for aſmuch as the naturall man vnderſtandeth not the thinges of the ſpirit of God. 1. Cor. 1.15. that no man in alleadging and citing of the ſcripture…, is to truſt to his owne wiſedome or learning; but according to the counſell of S. Iames, finding himſelfe in this caſe to lacke wiſedome, we exhort all men, and thinking it needefull our ſelues, before we take vponupon vsus to interprete them, to aſke wiſedome of God, and that hartelie and faithfully, that we may wiſely, truely and ſincerely open them vntounto the people: we know and ſaie with Baſil 2. libro contra Eunomium, that the word of God is not in the ſound and words of the ſcripture, but in the ſenſe; and with Hierom vponupon the firſt Chapter of the epiſtle to the Galathians, wee are readie alwaies to acknowledge that the goſpell lies not in the words of the ſcripture, but in the ſenſe, not in the outward ſhew, but in theinward marow, not in y^e leaues of ſpeech, but in the root of reaſon. Now this ſound ſence of the ſcripture we take onelyonly to be that, which the authour thereof thereby intended, for the better finding out whereof, after inuocation and praier vntounto God, for the direction of his ſpirit, to leade vsus aright thereunto, wee thinke it very neceſſarie, that no good meanes that we can hauehave vſe of, be omitted. And therefore to this ende, we labour for the knowledge of tongues and artes, we conſider of the phraſe, of all the circumſtances, hauehave before our eies the manifeſt & agreed on ſumme of Chriſtian faith and good maners, p. 206confer place with place, diligently reade the writings both of ancient writers and newe: and that we reſolue to be the true ſince, which we finde, ſtands beſt with the lawfull and good vſe of all theſe. In alleadging of them this courſe we take, to make it appeare, that by the ſound rules of interpreting the ſcriptures, they are rightly cited by vsus; wee ſtand not therefore vponupon the bare and onelyonly cyting of them, howſoeuer that be (as you would inſinuate) but vponupon the right and ſound alleadging thereof; which you can neuer proue, is common to vsus with other heretiques. For howſoeuer they and you ioyne with vsus in often alleadging the Scriptures for your defence, yet neither they nor you, ioyne with vsus in right alleadging of them, in that you and they alleadge them for the maintenance of your errours and hereſies, contrary to the true ſence thereof, and the ſound rules of interpreting of them, and we according to the true ſence of the Catholicke church, ſtanding well with thoſe rules, to confirme the Catholicke faith. And yet (as I ſaied) to this ende ſerueth what ſoeuer you hauehave writen in this Chapter, and in three or foure moe following, namely to proue, that the deuill, & heretiques, and others (as you write) hauehave by wreſting & wrong interpreting the ſcriptures alwaies laboured to countenāce their hereſies. This we graunt to be moſt true you ſee, & yet thereby you hauehave gained nothing againſt vsus. For we ſtand ſtill vponupon this, & may doe for all this, that if we hauehave the Scriptures indeede in true ſence on our ſide, thereby we and our doings are ſo ſufficiently iuſtified, as that we neede no further iuſtification.

Theſe fiue Chapters, as they tend to the proofe of one and ſelfe-ſame matter, ſo hauehave I thought good ioyntly to frame an anſwere to them togither. Be it graunted therefore vntounto you, that all theſe heretiques (as you hauehave writen and reported of them) alleadged the Scripture and conſequently (as hereupon you inferre cap. 26.) that one may ſee, how the ill diſpoſed may alleage ſcripture, in a corrupt ſence, to maintaine ſuch hereſie, as theſe. To what ende hauehave you done all this? It appeareth chap. 22. you entered firſt into this diſcourſe, to proue, that though we hauehave the ſcripture on our ſide, which we alleadge, yet we are not therby ſufficiently defended: and now hereupon onelyonly you would inferre & conclude, that a man may ſee, how the ill diſpoſed may alleadge Scripture in a corrupt ſence, to confirme ſuch hereſies, as theſe: which we graunt to be moſt euident: and yet it remaineth vndiſproued, that if we hauehave the p. 207Scripture, which we alleadge, on our ſide, we are thereby ſufficiētly defended. For none of theſe, nor any that alleadged Scripture. as they did, though they alleadge the words of the ſcripture, hauehave the ſcripture indeede on their ſides: becauſe if a man hauehave not the true ſence thereof on his ſide, he hath not the ſcripture indeede and trueth on his ſide.

But perhaps you will ſay, that you intended onelyonly in this diſcourſe this cōcluſion, that you hauehave gathered thereupon, & ſet downe in the beginning of your 26. Chapter: then ſay I, you made an obiection againſt your ſelues in our name cap. 22. which you thought to heauy & harde for you, & therefore you thought good, thus to ſlip frō it by and by againe. For you were neuer ſo ſimple, as to thinke, that we were of that opinion, that we accounted our ſelues to hauehave thoſe ſcriptures, which wee alleadged on our ſide to iuſtifie vsus & our doctrine, euē for the bare alleadging of the words, how far ſoeuer we were from the true meaning. But you beginne in your 26. to tell vsus, what further meaning you hauehave had therein, as namely, hereby to warne the ſimple people, that they ſhould not giuegive eare vntounto falſe paſtours, that hauehave nothing in their mouthes but the ſcripture, & the pure word of God And hereupon you take occaſion moſt earneſtly to perſwade thoſe, that are not much vſed to reade the Scriptures, nor to heare how the church & the doctours doe expoūd the hard places, to beware how they reade thē for fear of falling into errour. Indeede as long as you would hauehave them hereby onelyonly to take heede of raſh crediting falſe paſtours, which would countenance their damnable doctrine with ſuch allegations; I like well, and allow of your warning hereupon giuen againſt ſuch: but then I can aſſure you this withall, that rather your Popes, Biſhops, & paſtours will be found theſe falſe paſtours, then they whom you meane. I like alſo very well, that not only ſuch as you ſpeake of, but further that men of all ſorts, how much ſoeuer exerciſed in the reading of the ſcriptures, or acquainted with the expoſition of the Church or doctours, ſhould be at all times wary and carefull in reading of the Scriptures, in what ſence they take them. For I graunt (as you inferre) that if ſo many men of great learning hauehave ſo dangerouſlie miſtaken them, it is poſſible enough, that men that hauehave little ſkill or none at all, may as dangerouſly miſunderſtande them. But yet vponupon theſe wordes, either to diſcourage the paſtour from countenancing and defending his true doctrine, by the Scriptures, p. 208& pure word of God, or to diſcourage the ſimple people from reading and ſtudying the Scriptures (which I feare herein was your ſecrete purpoſe, though for ſhame you durſt not plainely ſet it downe) I tell you is deuiliſh and Antichriſtian. For though it be true, that the deuill for wicked purpoſe (as you note in you twenty two Chapter) alleadged ſcripture to Chriſt, Mat. 4. out of Pſal. 91. and all theſe heretiques alleadged ſcripture for the countenancing of their damnable hereſies, yet that droue not Chriſt, nor true Chriſtians from alleadging the ſcriptures to confute them, and to confirme the trueth, as it appeareth by Chriſtes anſwere to Sathan Mat. 4. and by the writings of the ancient fathers againſt theſe heretiques. And the hardneſſe that it hath pleaſed God to leaue in the Scriptures is not ſuch, but as that notwithſtanding, the ſimpleſt may reade and trauell in the Scriptures with great profit, howſoeuer it pleaſeth you to inſinuate in your taunting maner (ca. 26.) that artificers may not hauehave the ſpirit of God and bee profitable readers and vnderſtanders thereof. For eueryevery one that would be bleſſed, is to take delight in the lawe of god, and to ſhew that his delight, by meditating therein day & night. Pſalm. 1. and Chriſt hath commanded all his hearers indifferently, to ſearch the ſcriptures Iohn. 5. And for all the hardnes, that is in them, we reade, Pſal. 19. that the teſtimonie of the Lord giueth wiſedome vntounto the ſimple, and his commandements giuegive light vntounto the eies. And therefore the holy ghoſt in Dauid ſpeaking of the ſcriptures of the olde Teſtament (which were then harder, then they be now, being ſo opened as they be now by the acceſſe of the new Teſtament) ſaieth thus, Thy word is a lanterne vntounto my feete, and a light to my paths, Pſal. 119. Wherefore Peter in his 2. Epiſt. & 1. cap. calleth y^e writings of the Prophets, a light that ſhineth in a darke place▪ and therefore much more he accounted the ſcriptures of the new teſtament lightſome, which it ſeemeth in the verie ſame place he had an eie vntounto, adding, that they did well to attend to the former, vntill the day dauned, and the day ſtarre aroſe in their har… (which by meanes of the Scriptures of the newe Teſtament might bee) though I forget not, that the ſame Peter in the ſame Epiſt. chap. 3. wrote alſo, that amongſt the things writen by Paul in his Epiſtles, concerning the later daies, there are ſome things hard to be vnderſtoode. For I remember alſo, that yet he noteth, to whom they are ſo, ſaying, which they that are vnlearned, and vnſtable, peruerte: p. 209as they doe the other Scriptures, vntounto their owne deſtruction: for to ſuch nothing is plaine inough, to preſerue or keepe them from thus doing. VponUpon which groundes (howſoeuer) you and your fellowes with ſuch like diſcourſes as this, would diſcourage the ſimple and vnlearned from reading y^e ſcriptures) Origen wiſheth, that al would doe as it is writen, Search the Scriptures, in his 2. Hom. vponupon Eſay. And Hierom noteth vponupon theſe wordes Coloſſe. 3. Let the word of God dwell in you plentifully &c. that euen laymen ought to hauehave the word of God, not onelyonly ſufficiently, but alſo abundantly dwelling in them. And therefore Auguſtine in his 55. ſermon de tempore, ſaieth generally vntounto his hearers, It is not ſufficient, that yee heare the deuine ſcriptures in the Church; but alſo in your houſes either reade them your ſelues, or els deſire ſome other to reade them, and giuegive you diligent eare to them. And Chryſoſt: likewiſe in his 9. Homil: vponupon the Coloſſ. is verie earneſt to perſwade ſeculare men (as you call them) to get them the Bible, or at the leaſt the new Teſtament, to be their continuall teachets: and in his 3. Homil: vponupon Mat. he ſaieth plainely, that this as a plague marreth, or infecteth all, that ſome thinke, that the reading of the Scriptures pertaineth onelyonly to monkes. And theſe exhortations tooke ſuch place in the ancient time, that Hierom vponupon the 133. Pſalm ſaieth, that both maried men and their wiues then had this contention, and not monkes onelyonly, who could learne moſt Scriptures. Whereof came ſuch profit, that howſoeuer your gibing ſpirit can not digeſt the like in theſe daies, Theodoret in his 5. booke of the nature of man, writeth that men in his time might commonly ſee, that their doctrine was not only knowen of them, that were doctours of the Church, and maſters of the people; but alſo euen of Tailers, Smithes, Weauers, & of al artificers: yea and not onelyonly of learned women, but alſo of labouring women, as Sewſters, Seruants and Handmaides: yea he goeth further ſaying, that not onelyonly citizens vnderſtoode the ſame, but alſo cuntrie people, and amongſt them Ditchers, Deluers, Cowherdes and Gardiners, and that in ſuch ſorte, as that you ſhould then heare them diſputing of the Trinity, and of the creation of all thinges.

And as for the obiection, that you terrifie them ſo much withal, of the hardnes therein, the ancient fathers hauehave met with that alſo, and would not hauehave them thereby in any caſe diſcouraged from following p. 210this counſell, whereby they are ſtirred vp to heare … them. And therefore Origen in his 20. Homil: vponupon Iohn ſaieth, It may be ſaied, the ſcriptures are harde, yet notwithſtanding i… thou reade them, they ſhall doe thee good: and Hierom no…th that it is the faſhion of the Scripture, after harde thinges to … other things, that be plaine: in his 19. Homil: vponupon Eſay. But Auguſtine, belike meeting in his time with your forefathers, of whom yee hauehave learned this obiection, hath theſe wordes in his 5. books againſt Iulian, yee enlarge and lay out with many wordes (a… nothing is more vſuall with you) how harde a matter the knowledge of the ſcripture is, and meete onelyonly for a fewe learned men: and therefore in his 3. booke and 26. cap. of Chriſtian doctrine hi… giueth vsus this rule, to expound darke places by more plaine places which (ſaieth hee) is the ſureſt way of declaring the ſcriptures, to expounde one ſcripture by another: & in his 2. booke and 3. chap. of the ſame matter, he writeth, that in thoſe which are conteined, euidētly in the ſcriptures, are found al things that conteine f…th, maners, hope and louelove. But Irenaeus in his 1. booke, chap. 3 … teth ſimply, that the ſcriptures are plaine. And Chryſoſt: in his firſt Homil: vponupon Math. and vponupon the 2. Theſſ: 2. writeth that the ſcriptures are eaſie to the ſlaue, husbandman, widow, & children, and that all things be plaine and cleare therein. And yet I … needes adde with Epiphanius, onelyonly to the children of the holy ghoſt, are the ſcriptures plaine and cleare in his 2. booke: and with Solomon, knowledge is eaſy to him, that will vnderſtand: Prou. 14.6. For the naturall man perceiueth not the thinges of the ſpirit, for they are fooliſhnes vntounto him: neither can he know them, becauſe they are ſpiritually diſcerned. 1. Cor. 2.14. Of whom that S. Peter, 2. Epiſt. 3. might giuegive vsus to vnderſtāde hee onelyonly meant, he calleth thē, to whom thoſe thinges in S. Pauls Epiſtles (whereof he ſpeaketh) are harde, and whoſe faſhiō it is to miſunderſtād not only thoſe things, but alſo the reſt of the Scriptures how plaine ſoeuer, both vnlearned, & alſo vnſtable: w^c is an argumēt of wāt of y^e ſpirit of God, & of all true deſire indeede to finde knowledge, whereſoeuer it be. And it may be, this is the cauſe, why the ſcriptures ſeeme hard vntounto you of the church of Rome, becauſe you are led by y^e ſpirit of your Pope, which is but a mā, & often times an ignorant, & wicked man, to vnderſtand the ſcriptures, and hauehave indeede no true acquaintance w^t the ſpirit of God, nor any true deſire after knowledge, but p. 211rather after ignorāce, becauſe that is y^e beſt foūdation of your Religiō. And therefore (as the faſhiō is) you meaſuring another … by your owne, happily iudge them to be as hard to all others, as to your ſelues, and thereupon by the hardnes thereof, diſcourage them from reading them, as much as you cā. I am ſure, whatſoeuer you, or any of your fellowes prate hereof, that therein is conteined the will and teſtament of our heauenly father, and that this pertaineth to ſimple and vnlearned artificers, as well as to the great learned men of this world. For therein and thereby I know, that God is no accepter of perſons: and therefore ſo far of is it, that any hardnes of tearmes or phraſes therein conteined to expreſſe vntounto thē, or bequeath vntounto them their heauenly fathers beheſtes and bequeſtes, ſhould driue them from the reading and ſtudying of thē, that ſo much the more paines and diligence they ought to vſe to atteyne to the right ſence thereof. For we ſee in our earthly fathers will, the harder the tearines and phraſes be, wherein he hath giuen vsus any thing, or willeth vsus to doe any thing, nature & reaſon hath taught vsus, not therefore to take and beſtow leſſe paines & coſt, but a great deale more, to ſeeke to vnderſtand the ſame, how much more ought it to be ſo in this caſe? And I am perſwaded, that oure heauenly father hath ſo tempered hardnes with plainenes, & plainenes with hardnes in the ſcriptures, that the plainenes might allure and encourage eueryevery ſimple man to reade & ſtudy them, with hope to vnderſtand them; & that the other might admoniſh him to be no negligent, but a careful & wiſe peruſer of them: & ſo both together make eueryevery one a willing and ſtudious reader of them. Which (it ſhould ſeeme) both Fulgentius in his ſermon of the confeſſours, & Gregory in his epiſt: to Leander had obſerued, in noting, that God had ſo ordred the ſcriptures, as y^e therein he had prouided for the ſtrong man meate, & for the weakling milke: and that there both the Elephāt might ſwimme, and the lambe ſafely wade.

Theſe things notwithſtāding, & whatſoeuer elſe might be ſaied further to this purpoſe, I perceiue that you in this your lōg diſcourſe of the hereticks, abuſing and wreſting the ſcriptures, cared not how litle otherwiſe that which you wrote was to the purpoſe, ſo y^e thereby you might gaine thus much, as by ſuch experiments, to withdraw y^e mindes of men from the louelove & ſtudy of the ſcriptures. For I know they greatly comber you & ſtād in your way, and therefore by your wils you cared not, if the people neuer hearde of them, wherof you hauehave giuen an inuincible demonſtration in that you p. 212hauehave kept them hidden and ſhut vp from them as long as you …, vnderunder the cloſe buſhell of an vnknowen tongue. And your goodwill towardes thou hath otherwiſe beene ſufficiently bewrayed, by the vnreuerent and diſgracing ſpeeches vttered by your chiefe & great Champions againſt them, as it is well knowen, too too often. For firſt for their authority (though now ſome of your ſide would ſeeme in that point to ſpeake more modeſtly) not long ago Piggins a great man in his time with you, in the firſt booke and ſecond Chapter of his Hierarchie, hath flatly writen that all authority of ſcripture now, neceſſarily dependeth vponupon the authority of the Church, For otherwiſe we could not beleeue them, but becauſe we beleeue the Church that giues teſtimony vntounto them, adding further, that Marke and Luke were not of themſelues ſufficient witneſſes of the goſpell, and that the goſpels were not writen that they might be aboue our faith and Religion, but rather to be ſubiect thereunto. And Ecchius, another great doctour of yours of the ſame time, in his Enchiridion, writing of the authority of the church, ſaieth, that y^e ſcriptures were not of authenticke authority, but through the authority of the Church: and therefore he boldly affirmeth, that to ſay, that greater is the authority of the ſcriptures then of the Church, is hereticall, and the contrary is Catholicke. And whereas it was obiected by Brentius in the confeſſion of Wittingberge, that one of your crue (meaning thereby one Herman) had not beene aſhamed to ſay, that the ſcriptures ſhould hauehave had no greater eſtimation or credit then AEſops fables, but for the teſtimony of the church. Hoſius a Biſhop and Cardinall of yours, writing againſt the ſaied Brentius, in his third booke (being of the authority of the ſcripture) defends it as well inough ſpoken: for (ſaieth he) vnles the church had taught vsus which is ſcripture Canonicall, it could hauehave had ſmall authority with vsus. Likewiſe teacheth Melchior Canus in his ſecond book & ſeuēth Chapter of his places of diuinity, that it appears not to vsus that the ſcriptures are of God, but by the teſtimony of the Church, inſomuch that ſhe muſt determine (ſaieth he) what bookes be Canonicall, and her authority is a certaine rule whereby either to receiue or to reiect bookes into, or out of the Canon. Of the ſame iudgemēt is Caniſius in his Catechiſme ca. 30. ſect. 16. and Stapleton in his firſt Chapter of his ninth booke of the principles of doctrine, with a great rabble moe of your writers of greateſt account ſince Luther. And this poſition ſo liked Ecchius, that in the place p. 213before cited, he writes of the margent, Achilles, againſt this poſition, to inſinuate, that this is a ſpeciall tried captaine of yours. And yet when all comes to all, your meaning all this while is by the Church, to vnderſtand onelyonly the Pope, foraſmuch as none but hee, hath the tongue of the Church in weelding. For Catherin in Epiſtolam ad Galatas cap. 2. holdeth, that it is the Popes proper priuiledge to canonize or to reiect from the Canon ſcriptures: which is alſo Canus fift propoſition in effect, in the Chapter before named. This being your meaning, & Leo y^e tenth being one of your Popes, what Canonicall authority hauehave you left the ſcripture, if it be true y^t is writen of him, that he talking with Bembus then a Cardinall, cō temptuouſly ſaied, ſpeaking of the Goſpell, that that fable of Chriſt had beene very profitable vntounto them? And as for y^e vncertainty of the ſēce & inſufficiēcy of thē, who knoweth not, what coſt vſually alwaies vponupon eueryevery light occaſion you are ready to beſtow, in amplifying the hardnes of them, & in either preferring therefore, or equalling y^e vnwritē word, w^t you call y^e liuely practiſe of the church, before thē, both for plainnes & ſufficiency. Whē you are in this vaine, both the fathers of Colen ſhall be iuſtified, and Piggius alſo by your Andradius, Orthodox: Epl. li. 2. p. 104. though they cōpared the ſcriptures to a noſe of waxe, & he to a leaden leſbian rule, and to their further diſgrace, Canus may tearme them a dead iudge, which can neither heare nor ſpeake, in his Chapter & booke before named; & in like ſorte others in the following of this compariſon, w^t your good allowance, ſhall & may call them incken diuinity, & what elſe they liſt, as we oftē hauehave ſhewed you, and them y^e onelyonly reſt vponupon them, ſcripture men, or men whoſe Religion and diuinity, lieth in rags & ſkins of beaſts, becauſe of ſuch things the bookes are made wherein they are conteined. Many beaſtly & blaſphemous ſpeeches and aſſertions thus tending to y^e diſgrace of the Canonicall ſcriptures, any man that liſt may finde Lyndās three firſt bookes of his panoply, Hoſius booke de expreſſo Dei verbo, & his triple dialogue, Cuſans 2. Epiſt. ad Bohemos & 7. Andradius, Florebellꝰ, Priereas, & almoſt all your famous writers of theſe later daies, eueryevery where full oft, where they hauehave any occaſion to weaken thoſe arguments, y^t we vſe againſt you, either for that you are in your poſitions, wherein we diſſent frō you, without warrant of ſcripture, or that they are contrary to ſcripture. And whē we vrge you that of what credit ſoeuer the tradition of the church be, that you ſo pleade for, yet if it be the word of God aſwel as the ſcripture, p. 214then it muſt needes be, that it agreeth with the ſcripture, & is, not contrary vntounto it, for as much as God is alwaies one & ſelfeſame and therfore alwaies agreeing with himſelfe, & therefore preſſe you w^t that which by the wordes & circūſtances of the text of y^e ſcripture, we are ſure is the true ſence thereof, & therfore y^e vndoubted word of God, thē you, euen the greateſt of you, are driuē to theſe poore & baſe ſhifts, to cry out w^t Cardinal Hoſius in his 4. booke againſt Brētius, & in his booke de expreſſo Dei verbo before named, that ſcripture, as it is alleaged of Catholiques, it is the word of God, but as it is alleadged of heretiques, the expreſſe word of the Deuill, or as he ſaieth alſo in the later booke, if any hauehave the expoſitiō of the Romā church of any place of ſcripture, although he neither knowe nor vnderſtand whither & how it agreeth with the words of the ſcripture, yet he hath the very word of God. And when all comes to all, though ſometime you would make the pore ſimple people beleeue, that in expounding the ſcriptures you will follow the vniforme conſent of holy fathers and councels, yet both this Cardinall Hoſius in his triple dialogue, and Cardinal Cuſan in his 2. Epiſt. ad Bohemos tell vsus, & teach vsus plainely to vnderſtād you, that you meane no other ſence thē agreeth w^t the preſent practiſe of the Romā church, when tha… ſence is giuē: not once bluſhing to confeſſe, that according to the variablenes of the faſhiō and practiſe of that church, the ſcriptures muſt be vnderſtood, and therefore Cuſan cōmends that obedience that is yeelded thereunto ſimply without reaſoning, as the Oxe or Aſſe obeys his maſter. For whatſoeuer ſometimes, you talke of Popes not erring, & of the not erring of generall coūcels, or of the authority of the fathers, none that hauehave any thing craueiled in tracing you into your ſtarting holes whē otherwiſe you ſee you muſt needs be pinched & takē to your ſhāe, but he, eaſily ſeeth, y^t in trueth none of theſe, no nor all theſe togither w^t the ſcriptures themſelues, are of any credit and authority w^t you againſt y^e preſent practiſe of your Romā Church. One father, or the preſent Pope if he ſpeake & hold w^t that, though all the fathers beſide are of another minde, & thogh neuer ſo many of his predeceſſors held otherwiſe, yet farewell they, in this caſe; you will and muſt preferre this one, before all the other. Theſe things being moſt true, & notoriouſly knowen to all men, that w^t any indifferency hauehave traueiled in the controuerſies betwixt you & vsus, eueryevery one hath cauſe to ſee, howſoeuer ſomtimes you would ſeeme to yeeld ſome thing to the authority of y^e ſcriptures, that you are at a flat point, that neither they nor p. 215any authority els of mā, or men, old, or new, ſhall or may retaine any ſence of force, againſt the preſent practiſe and receaued opiniō of your ſinagogue. And as lōg as you are at this point, whatſoeuer you hauehave ſaid of heretiques abuſing of ſcripture, as though you were the only men that had care rightly to vſe them & vnderſtād them, eueryevery ſimple body may ſee, that of all men you are they, by the variablenes of your Romiſh church practiſe, w^c are moſt likely to make a noſe of waxe, and leaden rule both of the letter of the ſcriptures, and ſence thereof. And therefore whereas in your 23. c. you boldly affirme, that to draw the ſcriptures by violēce into a wrōg ſence, is the maner of interpreting the ſcriptures, called at this day the pure word, by thoſe that hauehave profeſſed as long as they liue to be enemies to the trueth, moſt fitly may be vnderſtoode of your ſelues; for you are ſo in louelove with the preſent practiſe, faſhion and opinion of your Romā church, that though that vary neuer ſo often, euen ſo oftē muſt the ſcriptures will they, nill they, vary and alter their ſenſe.

Howbeit I am not ignorāt, but that in ſo writing you meant vsus, though I am ſure you ſhall neuer be able to proue vsus, either to hauehave profeſſed at all any enmity w^t the truth, or ſo to vſe to wreſt the ſcriptures. But becauſe this is a matter of great importāce, and therfore ſuch as cānot be determined, either by your yea, or our nay, it ſhal not be amiſſe vpō this occaſiō, to cōſider, what ſoūd rules of interpreting there be, that by the ſame it may be tried, whither your interpreting of the ſcriptures or ours, deſerue thus to be called a drawing of the ſcriptures by violence to a corrupt ſence. The vniforme conſent of doctors you would oftē ſeeme (as I hauehave ſaied) in this caſe to make reckoning of, as of a ſoūd and Apoſtolicke rule of interpreting them by, but this is but for a faſhiō, for you hauehave giuen vsus & doe daily manifeſt proofes, that whē but one or two againſt all the reſt of thē hold w^t your currāt and preſent practiſe of your Roman church y^t now is, that that one or two of them ouer wey w^t you al the reſt. And beſides, if this were a neceſſary rule, then none could be interpreters of the ſcriptures, but thoſe that had all or the moſt part of the doctours to peruſe, few or none, then ancient doctors & writers there hauehave beene ſo many, & their names are ſo vnknowen to moſt, could be ſure when they had the conſent of the moſt and beſt on their ſide, and ſo neuer ſhould be ſure of the ſence: and for many places very little or nothing oftentimes hauehave they writen. Though therefore we will not ſhunne the trial of our interpretations w^t you by this rule, yet we account theſe more certaine rules & helps to finde out y^e true ſence: firſt p. 216that the true Grāmaticall ſence of the words, and ſpeech vſed by the holy ghoſt bee ſoundly and rightly vnderſtoode by ſound knowledge of Grammer & Rhetoricke, for the natiue ſignification of the words and vſe of the phraſe: whereunto much helpeth conference of tranſlation with tranſlation: & of all tranſtations (if neede be) w^t the originall tongues. Secondly, that diligent conſideration be had of the circumſtances of the text in hand, as namely, what is the matter & ſcope thereof, vponupon what occaſion it was vttered, who vttered it, to whom, where, & when. Thirdly, y^t it be taken in ſuch a ſence, as will agree beſt with theſe circumſtances, and ſtand well w^t all other places of ſcripture. And laſtly, that no ſence be admitted, but that which will ſtand w^t the ſound proportion and ſumme of Chriſtian faith, and good maners, taught vsus plainely elſewhere in the ſcriptures. By theſe rules we doubt not but to iuſtifie & approue that to be the true ſence of the ſcriptures, which we take them in, either for the confirmation of the trueth, which we holde; or for the confutation of the errours, which you defend. And ſuch rules they are, as the ancient fathers, in defending the ancient Catholique faith againſt heretiques, hauehave alwaies vſed, and no other, as appeareth in their workes. And ſuch they are, as Auguſtine in his bookes of Chriſtiā doctrine doeth preſcribe, as moſt neceſſary in this caſe to be followed, as no mā can, or ought to make any exception againſt. And yet ſuch they are; as would anone diſcouer the ridiculous vanity of your interpretatiōs in any controuerſie betwixt vsus and you. For example, let vsus try here by your interpretation of Hoc eſt corpus meū, which to be ſoūd you will liue and die in. By what grammer, or by helpe of what tongue, or tranſlation ſhall the word Eſt, is, be all one w^t tranſubſtantiatur in, is tranſubſtantiated into? Sure I am in no language, nor in anie Dictionarie ſhall you euer finde y^e verbe Subſtātiue takē in y^t ſenſe. Secondly, the matter in hand, when thoſe words were vttered, was a ſacrament, & Chriſt ſpake them to his Apoſtles at his laſt ſupper, to the ende, to inſtitute a ſacrament, to continue a duetifull remembrance of his death, vntill his ſecond comming. What reaſon is there then to the contrarie, but that this ſpeech ſhould be taken, as the like ſpeech alwaies els hath beene, and yet is in other Sacramentes? Where, Eſt, is neuer taken (coupling the ſigne and the thing ſigned togither, whereof a Sacrament conſiſteth) as you doe here, for, It is turned into, but for, ſignifieth; which ſtandeth alſo well with the nature of a Sacrament: whereas yours ouerthroweth p. 217the nature thereof, in ſo annihilating or tranſubſtantiating of the ſigne, that you leaue no ſigne to beare any analogie of the thing reſembled, which is the ground of ſuch Sacramentall phraſes. Thirdly, your ſence agreeth not with the reſt of the ſcriptures, not onelyonly in that in the whole bodie of the Scriptures, you cannot finde Eſt, Is, placed (as it is here) betwixt two thinges of diuerſe kindes, as breade and body be, taken in your ſence: and yet in ſuch propoſitious you finde it vſually taken for it ſignifieth or repreſenteth: but alſo in that the ſcripture (for all that ſpeech) calleth it bread ſtill, euen whiles it is in eating, 1. Corin. 10. & 11. cap. and expoundeth the eating thereof to bee a communion, or partaking with, or of the body of Chriſt, and that ſpirituall, not by corporall cō iunction. 1. Cor. 10. Laſtly, your interpretation for the bringing in, & eſtabliſhing of a corporall & reall eating of Chriſt, with the mouth of the bodie (which is a thing neuer taught vsus in the word, & but ſuch a kinde of feeding on him, as you your ſelues confeſſe Iudas, and ſuch may atteine vntounto, and be neuer the better) ſhaketh, yea ſubuerteth al thoſe articles, that concerne Chriſts true manhoode, making him to hauehave (euen for that needles preſence ſake) a body without any of the eſſential and inſeparable properties of a body: yea at one & ſelfeſame time, to hauehave a body viſible, ſenſible, and locall in heauen; & yet inuiſible, inſenſible, and without dimentions of place in earth. Beſides it is againſt good maners, which forbiddeth eating of mans fleſh, and drinking of his bloud, either openly or ſecretly couered vnderunder, or in another thing And truely Auerroes had ſome reaſon, of all men in y^e world to thinke ſuch Chriſtians, as you, the moſt ſauage and fooliſh, that firſt would fal downe, & worſhip a peece of bread for your God, & whē you hauehave ſo done eate him vp, and deuour him. Howſoeuer you pleaſe your ſelues in this interpretation, and in your imagination grounded thereupon, I am fully perſwaded, that this, & your multitude of images and idols are two of the principall cauſes, whereby you hauehave hardened the hearts both of the Turkes and Iewes againſt Chriſtiā Religion. And (as I hauehave read) ſome of them hauehave to ſome of your fellowes, being in hand to perſwade them to turne frō their Religion to yours, yeelded theſe two reaſons, why they thought yours worſe, then their owne, and conſequently as ſufficient cauſe, why they would not yeelde to yours.

Now if I ſhould but barely recite a number of other your interpretations and collections of the ſcripture, which yet with you go p. 218for very ſound and Catholique interpretations, & collections, I am ſure, it were ſufficient to make eueryevery reader thereof, that hath anie witte or diſcrecion left him, to thinke y^t there were neuer heretiques in the world, that hauehave more fondly & vainely interpreted the ſcriptures, then you. For example, let the reader marke theſe for a taſt. God made two great lights, the ſunne & the moone: that is, the Pope & the Emperour: & therefore as many degrees as the moone is inferiour to the ſonne, is y^e Emperour inferiour to the Pope: Innocēt: de Maioritate & obediēt: & Gloſsa, Ibid. Peter ſaied, he had two ſwords: y^t is, the tēporall & ſpirituall ſword: & therfore y^e Pope hath both powers. Cornelius y^e Biſhop of Bitonto in y^e councell of Trent, bluſheth not to apply to y^e Pope theſe words, The Pope the light is come vntounto the world, & men louelove darknes more, then light. EueryEvery one y^e euill doeth, hateth the light, & commeth not to the light, leaſt his deedes be reproued. Yea Paulus Aemilius in his 7. booke teſtifieth, y^t the Pope ſuffred the Legates of Cicilia, being proſtrate before him, to ſay vntounto him, Qui tollis peccata mundi, Thou which takeſt away the ſins of the world, hauehave mercy vponupon vsus: Thou which takeſt away the ſins of the world, graūt vsus peace: thus blaſphemouſly applying y^t to the Pope, which belongeth to Chriſt. But you will ſay, theſe were but the popes flatterers, that made theſe expoſitiōs, & applications. What then? they were made & vttered w^tout checke, yea to the liking of the Pope. And a picture once hāging in S. Mark… church at Venice, ſheweth, that Pope Alexāder the 3. himſelfe treading vponupon the necke of the Emperour Fridericke the 1. cauſed th…ſe words of the Pſalm: Thou ſhalt walke vpō the Adder, & tread the Cockatriſe vnderunder thy feete &. (which are properly to be vnderſto… of Chriſt) to be proclaimed as verified of that action of his: whereby appeareth, y^t the Pope himſelfe hath gone as farre as his flatterers. That of Paul (by him vnderſtood of thoſe y^t follow the directiō of the old mā, and are led in their doings by the fleſh) They that are in the fleſh cānot pleaſe God. Rom. 8. Siricius a Pope alſo interpreteth of thē, y^t liue in the eſtate of mariage. A Biſhop muſt be the huſbād of one wife, ſaieth Paul. 1. Tim. 3. that is, by their interpretatiō, of one benefice; and ſo his houſe and children, y^t he muſt well order and gouerne, there alſo ſpokē of, be his pariſh and pariſhioners. Who ſo would vouchſafe the reading of your 2. Nicene councell, he ſhould there finde ſtore of ſuch interpretatiōs for the maintenāce of images ſo ridiculouſly alleadged, as euer were any. And how is it poſſible, p. 219that the Church of Rome, holding thoſe principles, that ſhe doeth, but that you muſt needes be as violent wreſters and rackers of the Scriptures, as euer were. For both Cuſan Epiſt. 2.3.7. & Hoſius de expreſſo Dei verbo, & in his triple Dialogue, doe teach, that the ſcriptures muſt alwaies be interpreted according to the practiſe of the Church, ſo that how oft ſoeuer that change, the ſence of the ſcripture muſt change alſo. For ſtill the ſence thereof muſt be fitted to the time, and in no caſe it may be thought to retaine a ſence contrary to the practiſe of the Church. And now you are fully come to this (whatſoeuer at any time you talke either of Scriptures, doctours, or councels) your Pope for the time being hath full power and authority, to interprete all, as one hauing authoritie ſo to doe for his owne ſence. So that in deede and trueth, neither Scriptures, doctours, nor councels, how plaine ſoeuer their wordes bee to contrarie the doings of your Church, ſhall cary awaie any ſence, to ouerwharte you at all, but will they, nill they, they ſhalbe cauſed by your Pope to ſpeake on your ſide. And therefore theſe thinges conſidered, you are the men, and not wee, that take the precious ornaments from Epiphanius picture of a king, that you ſpeake of in your twenty three Chapter: and decke the image of a dogge, or of a foxe therewith, that is, (according to your owne application) which take the wordes of the Scripture, and by wreſting of them, make them ſerue to countenance your hereſies. For hereſies, wee holde none, …ither doe wee alleadge the Scriptures, but in his true ſence, … by theſe rules before mentioned, we are alwaies readie to proue. …nd therefore (for all your ſaying to the contrarie) the Scripture as it is alleadged by vsus, ſhall proue euen that word of God, that ſhall iudge you, and condemne you, if you repent not: & the ſence that you force vponupon it, ſhall proue but the deuiſe of man, & falſe doctrine: yea, your whole Religion is but a renuing of olde hereſies. For with the Ebionits you will not be iuſtified by faith onelyonly, Euſeb. lib. 3. ca. 24. but alſo by your owne workes & inherēt righteouſnes, as the Cathariſts hauehave taught you: Iſidor: Etymolog: lib. 8. cap. de haereſibus. Of the Manichees, you hauehave learned your miniſtring in one kinde: Leo ſerm. 4. de Quadrageſimâ. Marcus y^t heretique (who by his inuocatiōs made his followers beleeue, y^t in the Euchariſt he turned y^e wine into bloud) hath beene your firſt ſchoolemaſter for your doctrine of trāſubſtantiation, Epip. haereſ. 34. And your multitude of images & p. 220your worſhipping of them, the Carpocratians hauehave taught you, as to appeares, Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. & 24. when you commit theſe idolatries, you hauehave learned to excuſe your ſelues, to torment your ſelues and to light candels at noone daies, of the ancient idolaters, Lactā tus lib. 2. cap. 2. & lib. 1. cap. 21, & 6. cap. 2. As the Meſſalians reſtrained the force of baptiſme to former ſinnes (witneſſe Theodoret: diuin: decret: cap. de baptiſmo) ſo doe you. As Montanus taught of purgatory, oblations, and praiers for the dead, and limbus patrum (Tertullian de coronâ militis) euen ſo doe you. As the Collyridians ſacrificed vntounto the Virgin Mary and worſhipped her; (Epiphan. haereſ: 79) ſo doe you. As the Angeliſts and Caians gaue diuine honour to the Angels (Epiphan. haereſ. 38) ſo doe you. As Montanus and the Manichees deuiſed lawes for ſuperſtitious faſting (Euſeb. lib. 5. cap. 16. Aug. de moribus Manicheorum lib. 2. cap. 13) ſo doe you. As the Tatians, Encratites and Manichees were iniurious enemies to Matrimony, crying out y^t it was a carnal life, & therefore forbad it to their elect, and to them that would be perfect amongſt them (Auguſt. Epiſt. 47) likewiſe doe you. And as the Pelagians denyed that to be ſin, which ariſeth not from reaſon and wil, (Auguſt contra Iulianum. lib. 3. cap. 5) ſo doe you for the very ſame reaſons, deny concupiſcence of it ſelfe without conſent thereunto, to be ſinne & (as there further it appears) they aſcribed to the natural powers ſtrenght to doe ſpirituall things, and affirmed that a man is to be ſaued for and by keeping the law, ſo doe you. Of the Valent… nians alſo you learned to hauehave in ſuch price, as you hauehave, the ſign… …f the Croſſe, and to abuſe places of Scripture for it, as, God forbi…, that I ſhould reioice in any thing, but in the Croſſe of Chriſt, Iren… us lib. 1. cap. 1. Epiphan. lib. 1. Tom. 2. haereſ. 31. Of the Heracleo… nites you learned your extreame vnction, and other ceremonies, you vſe to the dead: Epiphan. lib. 1. Tom. 3. haereſ. 36. Of the Macionites & Pepuſians (Aug ad Quod. cap. 27) you learned to giuegive women leaue to baptiſe, Epiphan. haereſ. 42. Of the Hemerobaptiſtes, and of the Oſſenes you learned your holy water, holie ſalte, holie oile, and holy bread: Epiphan. lib. 1, Tom. 1. cap. 17. & 19. And of the ſame Oſſenes you hauehave learned alſo your ſuperſtition about reliques, and to pray in an vnknowen tongue, as Elcai their great Pope taught them, Epiphan. haereſ. 19. Thus if a man in reading Auguſtine, Irenaeus and Ephiphanius and others (that hauehave laboured in confuting the ancient heretiques) would diligently marke p. 221what hereſies and fonde things they held and vſed, he ſhould by and by, by comparing their doings & opinions with yours, finde, that you hauehave reuiued very many of their rotten and condemned hereſies, and that you hauehave learned moſt of your Ceremonies of them. And yet as though you of all men were freeſt, and furtheſt from all hereſie, ſtill you crie out, he retiques, heretiques. But it is but policy, that you hauehave learned of ſome theeues, who the better in an hew & cry to eſcape, ride crying out of theeues, theeues.

But for all this, as though you meant as honeſtly, as any man could deſire, in this 33. Cha. of yours, you tel vsus, that you would hauehave the Scriptures interpreted by him, that did indite thē: and therfore you alleage that, 2. Pet. 1. that no prophecy in the ſcripture is of any priuate motiō, or interpretatiō. For the prophecy came not in old time by the wil of mā, but holy mē of God ſpake as they were moued by the holy ghoſt: wherupō you inſinuate vntounto vsus, that you would hauehave thē interpreted by the directiō of the ſame holy ghoſt: w^c we are very well contented w^tal. For indeed, that onelyonly interpretation is ſound and good, that commeth from thence, and that is alwaies to be accounted to proceed but from a priuate motion, that hath not ground from thence, though otherwiſe neuer ſo great and publique perſons, and neuer ſo manie deuiſe it, receiue it, and hold it neuer ſo long. And therefore it is, that we tell you, that your interpretations, though they be countenanced with Popes, doctours, and councels, and what els you will, yet are to be reiected as priuate interpretations, vnles they be warranted by the teſtimony and authority of the holy Ghoſt.

But thē ſay you, you challēge this holy ghoſt, to lead you to the true ſence, how ſhal we beleeue that it dwelleth more in you thē in al the vniuerſal church, from Chriſts paſſiō to this time? I anſwere you, y^t we take no ſuch thing vpō vsus. For we ſay, if you vnderſtand by the Church, you ſpeake of, Chriſts Church, which hath frō thēce cōtinued vntounto this day, it hath neuer bene deſtitute of the ſame ſpirit of God, that now leadeth vsus into all trueth: otherwiſe, if thereby you vnderſtād onelyonly your own Synagogue of Rome, as the ſtate of it hath beene theſe later 500. or 600. years at the leaſt, we ſay, as it hath forſaken the true Chriſt, and hath ſet vp another, of an office of her owne deuiſing, ſo hath ſhee beene deſtitute of his ſpirit, and hath beene guided but by an humane & fooliſh ſpirit. But then you aſke vsus, where this ſpirit did reſt before we were borne? Wherunto p. 222(you thinke) wee can make no other anſwere, but that … dwelt in the heartes of the faithfull. And is not this a good anſwere? What fault can you finde in it? Is it not true? Doeth not Gods ſpirit dwell indeede in ſuch, yea and in none but ſuch? Now whereas you thinke, that if you ſhould aſke vsus againe, where were thoſe faithfull ones, our anſwere onelie would bee, where the holy Ghoſt was, and that wee could giuegive you no directer anſwere: and ſo thereat you take your pleaſure, ſaying, that that is to plaie handie, dandie, &c: though if wee ſhould anſwere you no otherwiſe, we might doe ſo with better reaſon, then your Collier in Hoſius, ſo much commended by him, and ſome of you elſe might anſwere, as he did, who when he was aſked, how he did beleeue, anſwered, as the Church beleeueth: and being demanded, how the Church beleeued, anſwered, as I beleeue. For the Scripture doeth expreſſely binde vsus, when wee are called, to anſwere for our faith, that wee ſhould yeelde a reaſon thereof: 1. Pet. 3. and ſo it bindeth vsus not, to bee alwaies able to make demonſtration, who bee the faithfull, and where they dwell from time to time: yet you vnderſtand well enough (if you were diſpoſed) that wee both can, and hauehave giuen you a more particuler anſwere, and that wee hauehave tolde both the names of the moſt famous perſons, and alſo where they and their followers hauehave liued, and dwelt, that beleeued as wee doe, and therefore had the holie Ghoſt as well as wee. But to let your gibing go, if in earneſt you would hauehave it tried, whither in interpreting the Scriptures you or wee hauehave the holie Ghoſt, and ſo conſequently, whither you or wee bee liker theſe heretiques (you ſpeake of) in miſinterpreting the Scriptures: your interpretations and ours muſt bee examined, which will ſtande beſt with the reſt of the Scriptures, wherein we are ſure, the holie Ghoſt hath ſpoken: and ſo they, whoſe interpretations are found beſt to agree therewith, ſentence muſt bee giuen on their ſide, that they hauehave the holie Ghoſt, and that the other hauehave it not. For Chryſoſtome writing of the holie Ghoſt gaue this rule, to trie whither Montanus and Manicheus had this ſpirit, or no, as they bragged: and hereby hee proueth, that Chriſt taught by this ſpirit, becauſe hee confirmed his doctrine out of the Lawe and the Prophets, whereas the falſe teachers could not doe ſo. Chriſt himſelfe p. 223alſo by his owne example hath taught vsus, when the queſtion is betwixt two, about the ſence of a ſentence of Scripture, yea, though hee that bringeth the wrong ſence, be the verie Deuill himſelfe, that this is the next, beſt, and ordinarieſt waie, to ſtoppe his mouth, and to make it appeare, that hee hath brought a wrong ſence, to ſee, whither it will ſtande with ſome other plaine place of Scripture or no. For when the Deuill had alleadged the ninetie one Pſalme in this ſence, that the meaning thereof was, that though Chriſt ſhould throwe himſelfe downe head-long, yet his fathers promiſe was, that hee ſhould take no harme, becauſe by this ſence, ſathan would hauehave perſwaded him, vponupon preſumption vponupon his fathers protection, to hauehave tempted him: Chriſt proueth, that that could not bee the ſence of the place; becauſe it was writen (as it is Deut. 6.) Thou ſhalt not tempt the Lord thy God. And with this anſwere ſathan, as cunning and malitious, as he was, gaue ouer to replie any further, for the iuſtifying of his ſence, Math. 4.7. So alſo Iohn. 5. in that great controuerſie, touching the perſon and office of the Meſsias, when as the ground thereof was, that his enemies had falſely interpreted the propheſies concerning him, yet Chriſt for the determination thereof, and to make it appeare, whither they or hee brought the truer interpretation thereof, ſaieth, Search the Scriptures. And therefore when Paul had preached the Goſpell at Berea, it is noted to the commendation of certaine men there, that they ſearched the Scriptures daiele, whither thoſe things were ſo: by that meanes labouring to ſatiſfie themſelues in this great queſtion, whither Paul, or the Scribes and Phariſees had the ſpirit of God in interpreting the Scriptures concerning the Meſsias. And this courſe all the ancient fathers hauehave followed (as appeareth plentifully in their workes) in the confuting of thoſe heretiques, that you ſpeake of, and all other, and conſequently, in determining whither they or themſelues had the direction of the holy Ghoſt in interpreting the Scriptures. And therefore they hauehave giuen vsus rules, to helpe vsus in this caſe, as for example; Tertullian againſt Praxeas, hath giuen vsus this, Fewer places muſt bee expounded by the more. Auguſtine this, The circumſtance of the Scripture is woonte to giuegive light, and open the meaning, in his booke of Queſtions, quaeſt: 69. Darke places are to be expoūded p. 224by more plaine places; that is the ſureſt way of declaring the ſcriptures, to expoūd one ſcripture by another: in his 3. booke of Chriſtian doctrine, cap. 26. and in thoſe bookes writen of Chriſtian doctrine many moe very profitable. Which way Chryſ: thought ſo ſure a way, that he ſaieth flatly, The holy ſcriptures expound thēſelues, and ſuffer not the Reader to erre, in his 12. Homil: vponupon Gen: And yet for all this, to this triall will not you of the Church of Rome be brought, neither for the triall of your interpretations, nor yet for determining of this queſtion, whither you hauehave the ſpirit of trueth or no. Chriſt and his Apoſtles were contented to put themſelues, for triall of their doings, to this, but your Popes thinke ſcorne to looke ſo lowe: yea rather they will hauehave all queſtions, wherein they are principall parties themſelues, tryed by themſelues, and you and they crie out, that this is not the readieſt way to ende ſuch queſtions. But who is ſo madde, as to thinke, that you can finde out a better way, then Chriſt and his Apoſtles vſed? You will ſend vsus (ſay ſome of you) for the triall of theſe matters vntounto the doctours, and councels, and yet when it commeth to the point, vnles they and their ſayings pleaſe you, yee reiect them alſo. And you cannot denie, but that oftentimes alſo it is farre more diſputable and doubtfull, what was their meaning, then what is the meaning of the Scripture: and you know alſo, that it is an vſuall thing with them, to ſende vsus backe againe to the Scriptures, for triall of their writings, as it appeareth in Auguſtines 19. Epiſt. to Hirom, and in his 111. Epiſt, to Fortunatian. And therefore indeede (ſay you what you will) this is the ſafeſt, ſureſt, and readieſt way of triall of this and all other matters in queſtion betwixt vsus, to bring all to the touchſtone of the ſcriptures. I would to God therfore, that once you would giuegive ouer al other bie, and indirect trials, and come onelyonly to this: for then it would quickely appeare, euen to the ſimple, whither you, or wee were rather to be followed. For all this, we ioyne with you in the later ende of your twenty three Chapter, in warning men to take heede, that they doe not raſhly beleeue & follow eueryevery one, that will pretend, that they hauehave the ſcriptures on their ſide. But whereas you write y^t the hereſies, which you will after ſpeake of, & y^t were condē ned by y^e Catholique church, were as well & more largely confirmed by ſcriptures, thē we can thereby confirme our Religiō: therein firſt you moſt vntruely report y^t of vsus, as we doubt not, but to make it euident p. 225vntounto the world, if you would once come to any indifferent trial w^t vsus: & ſecondly, I muſt admoniſh y^e reader, y^t theſe ancient hereſies indeed were condemned by the Catholique Church, but that that catholique Church, was not yours, nor as yours now is. For the differences be infinite betwixt yours, & the Church thē, by reaſon whereof, there is as great difference betwixt the Church then, and yours now in effect, as there is betwixt ours now, and yours.

In your recitall of the heretiques abuſing the ſcriptures, diuers things ſlipt from you alſo worthy the noting, namely theſe, that you could not content your ſelfe, with ſhewing vsus, how they did abuſe the Scriptures, in wrong alleaging them, but that (as though your fingers itched to ſhew, that you had as good ſkill therein, as they) you ſtill intermingle with theirs your owne cunning, in ſhewing how other places might be abuſed in like maner, neither confuting in the ende their collections, nor your owne, how dangerous ſoeuer. Another tricke you hauehave, in noting the trueths impugned by them, and the maner how they went to worke (though neuer ſo vntruly) yet cō fidently to ſet downe, that the things w^c we impugne in you were holden by the Church in equall degree of trueth and reuerence with them, that they ſet themſelues then againſt: and that they cried out againſt traditions of men, and cried onelyonly for the writen word, as we doe; wheras in trueth few or none of the things we condemne in you, were hatched then: and the contrary before hath appeared out of Irenaeus lib. 3. cap. 2. that it was their faſhion, to flie from the Scriptures, and to accuſe them, as you doe, and to vrge traditions, & that they alſo vſed to vrge other ſuch like grounds for their hereſies, as you doe, as I hauehave ſhewed cap. 3. The laſt is, that for the moſt part you charge them with what you liſt, not ſhewing vsus where you read or finde ground for theſe things wherewith you charge them, belike leaſt in turning to the places & examining you proofes, we ſhould to your diſcredit, hauehave occaſion thereby to diſcry in you, either ſome malice, errour, ignorance, or ſome negligence at the leaſt. For example, how proue you that which you write cap. 22. that the Arrians alleadged as many or more places, then the Catholicks? Or that the ſame Church that condemned the Adamits hath condemned vsus, Hus and his ſchollers condemning them.

But to paſſe on from theſe things, to your concluſion vponupon theſe premiſſes, and to that which you infer thereupon in your 26 Chapter, I graunt you, by that which you hauehave writen in the former chapters, p. 226it may be ſeene that one ill diſpoſed maie ſoone alleage ſcripture in a corrupt ſence, but what is this to proue, that which you vndertooke cap. 22. that is, that the holie ſcriptures which we alleage do not iuſtifie our doings. If you would hauehave proued this indeed, you ſhould hauehave proued, that we alleage the ſcriptures in a wrong ſence, as theſe did that you hauehave talkt on: but that was to heauie a peece of worke for you, & therfore you thought good not once to meddle w^t it. But yet as though either you had proued it, or elſe y^t it could not but w^tout proofe be graūted you, you boldly affirme, as theſe hereticks y^t you hauehave talkt of, hauehave periſhed & their hereſies, ſo ſhall we & our followers, if we repent not. Wherunto I anſwere firſt, y^t ſo repentance maie be takē, y^t it is moſt true, that not onelyonly we & our followers, but you & yours alſo, & al men elſe, muſt repent, or elſe we al, you, and al other, ſhal periſh: but taking it, as you doe, for repēting of our religiō, & of alleaging of y^e ſcriptures w^c we doe for y^e maintenāce of it againſt you, you hauehave ſaied nothing at al as yet to make vsus once to thinke, y^t we hauehave any need at al ſo, or therof to repēt. Secōdly, I ſaie y^t in thus ſaying, you hauehave ſhewed your malice & boldnes more, then any thing elſe: for you hauehave therin vttered nothing, but a blind prophets dreāe and fanſie, which no man of any wiſedome or diſcretion wil make any reckoning of. It is wel yet y^t the euidēce of y^e trueth, hath enforced you here to confeſſe, that it maie be ſeene in al the ancient eccleſiaſtical writers, that the doctours fully anſwered by texts of ſcripture, theſe old hereſies by you before mētioned. For euen therby you maie ſee, y^t though heretickes neuer ſo much miſaleage ſcripture, that yet the true miniſters of the Lord, may & muſt alleage them, euen to anſwere & to cōfute their hereſies by. And therfore it ſtādeth ſtil firme, that if we, by alleaging of thē aright cā proue you heretickes, & your opiniōs, w^c we ſtriue againſt, hereſies (which no further then we can doe, we neuer craue anie credit to be giuē vsus) whatſoeuer you would ſeeme to hauehave ſaied, to beat vsus frō alleaging of thē, y^t it appears that therby both we, our doings and religion are ſufficiētly iuſtified, both before God and mā. Theſe miſalegers of ſcripture which in al theſe Chapters you hauehave ſpoken of, you ſaie, you will not ſtaie to confute, for two cauſes, becauſe they raigne not now, and their hereſies togither w^t thē the authours therof are periſhed, & becauſe the anciēt doctors hauehave cōfuted them as you ſaie: but indeed the reaſon was, that you were loth to occupie either your ſelfe or reader, in ſo profitable a matter. It ſemeth you tooke more delight, in ſhewing how the ſcripture p. 227might be miſalleaged, to fortifie hereſie, then how rightlie alleaged, to cōfute the ſame, and therfore you could find leaſure to ſtay 4. or 5 Chap. in that, but not at al vponupon this. Beſides, if it be true y^t you hauehave reported (if you had wel remēbred your ſelfe) you would not ſo generally hauehave ſaied, that they were al periſhed. For read your Chap. ouer again, and you ſhal finde, that therin you hauehave ſpoken of ſome, y^t are not ſo quite dead and periſhed, but that euen in theſe daies they need to be cōfuted. But you ſay, that w^t you hauehave here noted, either of them or of their hereſies and their alleaging of ſcripture for the ſāe, you hauehave done it onelyonly to giuegive warning to ſimple people, y^t they ſhould not too raſhly giuegive ear to falſe paſtors, w^c hauehave nothing in their mouthes, but the holy ſcripture and the pure word of God, ſo couering the cups of their poiſon, w^t the gold and pretious ſtones w^c they hauehave taken frō the image of the eternal king, to paint thoſe ſubtil foxes, that will lead them al to dānatiō. If you had indeed done it onelyonly to this end, you had not bene to be miſliked: but in deed and trueth, you hauehave done it, to breed in men a careleſnes and negligence in ſearching the ſcriptures, and a cōtempt of alleaging the ſame, to determine the cō trouerſies betwixt vsus and you. Otherwiſe thinke as you ſpeake, and we are ready to ioine w^t you both in this, & alſo in y^t which you adde, in wiſhing the ſimple and vnlearned in reading the harde places, to take heed they fal not into error, by taking onelie the letter &c. For if great learned men thereby hauehave bene endangered, how much more may ſuch. But ſurely this is rather a caue at meet and needful for you thē for vsus, if we go no further, but to your peeuiſh taking of the letter of hoc eſt corpus meū, contrary to al ſound rules of right interpreting, as I hauehave ſhewed before.

Now, wheras hereupon you take occaſion, according to your maner, to ieere at our miniſtry, as though in Frāce & Englād eſpecially it were generally vnlearned, and conſiſted of the baſeſt and moſt contemptible of the people: you are worthy of ſmal anſwere, your ſpeech there about is ſo apparētly falſe & ſlāderous. For, God be thāked, in both kingdoms, you your ſelues are enforced to feele (to your whole kingdoms griefe and deadly wound in the end I doubt not) y^t there are great ſtore of learned miniſters and biſhops, far other maner of men, then you hauehave named. And therfore your own conſcience could not but tel you, vnles it were ſeared with a hoate iron, that they doe in neither kingdōe cōmit the guiding of the ſterne, w^tout cōſideratiō, to al kinde of people. In both places, both their doctrine & publicke order of their churches aimeth at a learned & godly miniſtry: wherof p. 228if in ſome particulers they faile (which in ſo great a multitude and compaſſe altogither cannot bee auoided) the faulte is to bee laied in the particuler men, by whoſe negligence or corruption it ſo commeth to paſſe, and not in either of the churches, which would gladly, that no ſuch fault ſhould at all be committed. Howbeit I dare ſay, howſoeuer you ruffle in your tearms of pedlers Coblers, Tanners, Bankerouts and raunagates, and ſay that ſuch be our interpreters of the ſcriptures, and that we hold eueryevery ſuch one, once admitted by a biſhop to be a miniſter, to hauehave the ſpirit, and to be great doctours, to whom no place of ſcripture is too hard, becauſe they can rayle of the Pope, ſay al the ancient doctours were men, and the generall councels did erre: that yet you can neither proue our miniſters to be ſuch, nor that for theſe balde reaſons, wee thinke any ſo qualified as you write. It pleaſed you but in this, to ſhew your ſpitefull and malicious ſpirit: but alas who will thinke (doe you what you can) that you indeed miſlike a baſe and vnlearned miniſtry, who not onelyonly hauehave held (and yet hauehave as great cauſe ſo to doe ſtil as euer) that ignorance is the mother of deuotiō, but alſo vponupon that ground, hauehave all your Church ſeruice in a tongue, that the people ſhall not vnderſtand, and content your ſelues, for the moſt part with ſuch prieſts, as can ſcarſely rightly read the ſame. Truely, if there had bene but a crumme of right modeſty & ſhamefaſtnes in you, knowing as you doe, the notorious baſenes, groſſenes, and ignorance of your ordinary maſſe-prieſtes, you would neuer hauehave taken this pleaſure, that it ſeemeth you did, in thus railing on, defacing and ſlandering of ours.

Indeed by that ſaying of Chriſt, Matth. 11. (by you quoted Ioh. 8.) when we ſee what grace and giftes of knowledge God oftentimes amongſt vsus beſtoweth vponupon ſuch: in the meane time, beholding in what great blindnes and errour a number of great Rabbins and doctours amongſt you walke on ſtill, we take occaſion (as Chriſt hath taught vsus) to giuegive thankes to our heauenly father, that hath reuealed theſe thinges vntounto babes, which yet your great wiſe men, and men of vnderſtanding, ſee not. But you would not hauehave vsus by this place to defend, that ſuch meane men may come to be cunning and ſkilfull in the Scriptures. Your reaſons are two, for that other heretiques hauehave ſo alleadged it; and for that this is to be vnderſtood of the humble in ſpirit, whereas theſe men of ours, truſt to their owne wittes, and are puft vp with arrogant ignorance p. 229&c. You thought good yet neither to tell vsus what heretikes, when, nor where: howſoeuer, you knowe (I truſt) that men muſt not ſhame wel to vſe that Scripture, that heretiques hauehave abuſed. Concerning your other reaſon, I graūt you, the place is to be vnderſtood onelyonly of the humble and meeke in ſpirit, and whoſoeuer amongſt vsus come vntounto the ſcriptures, truſting to their owne wittes, and ſo puft vp with ignorance (as you ſpeake) we vtterly miſlike thē as much as you. But that you ſhoulde giuegive forth this ſentence of yours in ſuch general tearmes, againſt ſimple & poore men amongſt vsus, that trauell in the Scriptures, you had neither reaſon, nor charity in ſo doing. Commonly ſuch raſh iudging of others, proceedeth from a minde euen ſo qualified, as you charge theirs to be, and from no other fountaine. And who ſo conſidereth their groſſe ignorance, and errors, that remaine in your great Clerkes, euerie where notwithſtanding theſe ſcriptures (what other learning ſoeuer they pretend) he hath moſt iuſt occaſion thereby to iudge, that either they ſtudy the ſcriptures verie little, or els that they come to them with the mindes you talke of.

And if you woulde tell vsus plainelie, what you meane by humility of ſpirit (which in this caſe you ſpeake of) wee ſhould ſoone perceiue, that thereby you vnderſtand not true Chriſtian humilitie, which through a baſe conceite that it breedeth in the owner, ſtirreth him vp the more earneſtlie to craue aſſiſtance of Gods ſpirit, and by diligent ſearch of the Scriptures, and more carefull vſe of all good meanes, to compaſſe the right vnderſtanding of them: but a popiſh and ſlauiſh kinde of humilitie, which muſt breede in the owner ſuch a ſeruile depending vponupon your Popes will, and Churches tradition for the ſence thereof, as that he admit no ſence at al of them (though thruſt vponupon him neuer ſo plainelie by the euidence of the place) that will not fullie agree therewith. Which breedeth in all of your ſide, either a flat giuing ouer all reading of them, or els ſuch a reading of them, as that they muſt bring a ſence vntounto them from the tradition of your Church, and ſo enforce that vponupon them, whither they will or no, for howſoeuer the ſcripture ſpeake, the Churches tradition maie not be contraried. This is your humblenes of ſpirit, when you hauehave brought Gods ſpirit ſpeaking in the Scriptures in ſubiection vntounto your popiſh ſpirit: but this is a proud humilitie, and a curſed meekenes. You doe but malitiouſlie ſlander vsus, in that you would perſwade your reader, that p. 230how bad and ſimple ſoeuer the man were before, aſſoone as a biſhop hath made him miniſter, we ſay ſtreight, hee hath the holy Ghoſt, and no Scripture is to harde for him, if hee can with all ſay the Lorde, and rayle vponupon the Pope &c. And yet I muſt tell you, that wee thinke it not vnlawfull, but very neceſſarie to paint out your Pope with the colours, that are due vntounto him, that men may the better beware of him: and yet wee count that no rayling; but wee neither tie the holie Ghoſt to the impoſition of the Biſhops handes, nor place anie ſuch matter in theſe things here mentioned by you, as you woulde leade your reader to imagine we doe. You know we might as eaſily (and ſute I am with far more trueth) ſaie, that with you, how lewd & vnlearned ſoeuer the man bee, yet when one of your biſhops hath prieſted him, thē if he can cal the Pope moſt holie father, & ſpeake reuerētly of your Cardinals, biſhops & other prelates, & ſaie, fi… on theſe heretiques, theſe Lutherans, and Zuinglians, he is ſtraight a famous and worthie catholique Prieſt with you. But wheras amongſt other things, you obiect that as a fault to their diſgrace, that they ſay the ancient doctours were men, and that the generall Councels hauehave erred, it is but to diſcredit them with the ſimple. For you know, that the learned knowe, that both fathers and councels hauehave erred, & that you your owne ſelues, when they write or determine any thing which you like not, wil and doe as plainelie as we acknowledge the ſame. For which point let a man read Andrad. firſt booke writen in defence of the Tridentine faith, and but what Pighius hath writen of purpoſe for ſuch cauſe, to diſcredit the ſixt and ſeuenth Sinods, and hee ſhall moſt plainelie perceiue, that councels are of no further credit with you, then they ſhall be found to ſay nothing to your miſlike. But to make it cleare, y^t it is no abſurditie to ſay or hold, that coūcels and fathers may erre, and hauehave erred: it is wel knowen, that as the firſt Nicean councell and ſundry after, accordingly decreed a right, againſt the Arrians for the trueth of Chriſts manhood, ſo the Tyrian, the Sirmienſe, the Ariminenſe, the Sebucian and the Antiochē councels determined with the Arrians againſt the Nicean and the trueth. The ſecond councel of Nice Act. 5. agreed that Angels and mens ſoules are bodily and circumſcriptible, and yet this councel, notwithſtanding this groſſe errour, was confirmed by the 6 councel held at Conſtantinople, which Pope Agatho hath allowed for a general councell. The 3. councell of Carthage cap. 23. determined p. 231that all praiers at the altar ſhould onelie be made to the father. The 2 councell of Epheſus was on Eutyches the heretiques ſide, and decreed for him. Your late councels of Conſtance and Baſil decreed a dangerous errour (in your conceit I am ſure) whē they decreed the authoritie of the general councell to be aboue the Popes. For your holy father could not be quiet, vntill he got the contrary decreed in other two Synods at Ferraria, and Florence. And in the 6 of Conſtantinople (mentioned before) there was a perilous hereſie agreed on (I am ſure in your iudgement) Canonthirty ſix, againſt your Popes title, namelie that the Biſhops of Conſtantinople ſhoulde enioy and hauehave equall priuiledges with them of Rome. See alſo the twenty two Chapter of the Mileuitan councell Ca. the 26. of the 3 councell at Carthage and the 92 Chapter of the African, & the Epiſtles of the ſame, to Boniface & Caeleſtine, and you ſhal finde plaine & direct Canōs againſt the Supremacy, that now your Popes callēge. You were beſt therfore not onelyonly to be cōtēt, that we ſay, general coūcels may er, but to learne to ſay ſo, aſwel as we, your ſelues al the ſort of you or els you ſee, you are not frēds to your holy father. You may doe it, I warrāt you, without any diſcredit. For Auguſt. a great doctor in his 2. booke, & 3. Chap againſt the Donatiſts ſaieth, that the very general councels are often corrected, the former by the later, as often as by triall & experience the thing is opened, that before was ſhut. And therfore diſputing againſt Maximinus li. 3. ca. 14. he calleth him frō the coūcels to the touchſtōe of y^e ſcriptures. And as for the doctors, the ſame Aug. being one of the chiefe of thē, in his 2. booke. & 2. Chap. againſt Creſconius, plainly cōfeſſeth, that the iudges, or doctors of the Church, as being mē, are oftē deceiued: & therfore in his 2 booke of one baptiſme, he writeth, that we may argue & doubt of the writings of any biſhop, whoſoeuer he be, but we may not ſo doe of the holy ſcriptures. If he had not thought, y^t he himſelfe not onelyonly might, but had erred, would he euer hauehave writē as he did, a booke of Retractiōs or Recātatiōs? And indeed in his 2 book, & 4. Chap. ad Bonifaciū, & againſt y^t 2. Epiſt. of the Pelagiās, it appeareth, y^t he was of opiniō, y^t of neceſſity childrē were to receiue y^e Cōmunion, or els they could not be ſaued: becauſe it is writē Ioh. 6. Except yee eat the fleſh of the ſonne of mā, & drinke his bloud, yee hauehave no life in you: and Pope Innocent, and many of the fathers were of the ſame opinion then. And yet I thinke now your ſelues holde this to bee an errour, aſwell as wee. And p. 232who will read his fourth booke de animâ & eius origine ad Vincentium, and his prologue to his retractions, he ſhould there plainlie finde him confeſſe, that there are manie things in his wordes worthilie to bee founde fault withall, which he craueth that his reader would not cleaue vntounto in any caſe, but rather pardon and follow him non errātē, ſed in melius proficientem: not erring, but better profiting: Yea in the later place he ſaieth, that he would not arrogate that perfection to himſelfe then being old, much leſſe when hee was young, not to erre. And I thinke that you are not ignorant, that Irenaeus and Papias, were plaine Millenaries: and that Cyprian & a nūber of biſhops in his time in Affricke, held in councel decreed, y^t rebaptizatiō of thoſe that had bene baptized by hereticks, which both you and we count errors notwithſtanding now. Why therefore, eſpecially when the names and titles of councels or men are vrged, to the preiudice of the trueth taught in the ſcriptures, may we not ſay, that which is true, that they both might & hauehave erred? And thus you hauehave your anſwere, firſt generally to your principall ſcope in theſe 4. or 5. laſt Chapters, ſet downe togither, becauſe the drift of them was but al one: and now alſo a further anſwere to the reſt of the matters and words therein here and there ſcattered. But yet you hauehave not quite done with this matter, let vsus therefore further follow you, to ſee if you hauehave ſaid any more to the purpoſe in that which is behinde, then in that which we hauehave heard already.