Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 4
The IIII. Chapter.
Cant. 1.WHoſe diſcourſe doeth make me remēber the complaint, that the ſoule doeth make vntounto her Spouſe Ieſus Chriſt, beeing both repreſented by Salomon, and his legitimate ſpouſe. I pray thee (ſaith ſhe) O my deare frend, tell mee in what place thou doeſt lie and reſt at no… daies, for I would be very glad and deſirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes? The which is as much to ſay, as if ſhe meant thus: I ſee many ſhepheardes in theſe mountaines, which hauehave great abundance of ſheepe, I ſee thoſe of the Roman Church, I ſee Donatiſtes, I ſee Nouatians, or, to ſpeake of our time, I ſee one flocke follow Luther, another followaThe Calueniſts Zuinglians and Sacramentaries: are commonly amongſt you taken for one, yet here that the variety of opinions may ſeeme the greater, you reckon them vp as three diſtinct ſorts. Zuinglius, another follow Caluin, another the Anabaptiſts, another the Sacramētaries, & ſo forth diuers others, of whō whē I demaūd particulerly, Whoſe is this flocke? they do al anſwer me, It is of Chriſt, & eueryevery … ſaieth this is the catholicke Church, eueryevery one doeth ſay, that he is his fellow, that is to ſay, as touching the guiding of his flocke. Now it is not poſsible, that they doe al teach the trueth, conſidering how they varie among thē ſelues: therefore I doe deſire thee to tell me, where thou doeſt reſt thy ſelfe at noone daies? That is as much to ſay, teach me, which is the true Catholicke Church, which doeth celebrate the true miſterie of the Croſſe, which is the place, where thou waſt nailed at noone daies, beeing nailed both handes and feete? Heare now the anſwere of Ieſus Chriſt: If thou doeſt not know the place where I reſt, O moſt beautifull amongſt all women, follow thou the path that thy flocke hath made before thee, ſetting thy tabernacle or thy lodge, hard by the tabernacle of thy Shepheards. If wee well note, and vnderſtand this anſwere, it will learne vsus that, that ſhall ſuffice to keepe vsus from running euer aſtray. The ſenſe is this: O thou Chriſtian, which art troubled in thy conſcience, not knowing, becauſe of ſo many hereſies, which way thou ſhalt go, or how thou ſhalt diſcerne the true religion from other falſe doctrine, take my counſaile, the which is to follow ſtep by ſtep the flocke that went before thee. If that a thouſand or two thouſād ſheep run ouer a plaine, thoſe that come afterward, doe not they knowe wel the path that is made before them? Doe not they diſcerne the way that the firſt went? Yes ſurely, although there be no Shepheard to guide them. And if thou doeſt anſwere, that this doeth not ſuffice, for I doe ſee diuerſe pathes, I ſee the path of the Caluiniſtes, Cant. 1.the path of the Lutherans, and the path of thoſe of the Roman Church: but yet doe not I knowe which flocke I ſhould chooſe. To this I anſwere thus: ſet thy Tabernacle by the Tabernacle of the ſhepheardes, and of thy Paſtours, I meane, thataThen we may not leane to yours for this can it neuer doe. I would hauehave thee to leane to that flocke, that can leade thee from age to age, and from yeare to yeare, vntounto the croſſe of Ieſus Chriſt, on the which hee was nailed at noone daies: and there it is where thou oughteſt to quiet thy ſelfe and thy conſcience. Then to beginne: If thou doeſt aſke the Caluiniſtes, Where is the true faith (the which, as they ſaie, doeth conſiſt in the true preaching of the worde of the Lorde, and in the adminiſtration of the Sacramentes, according to the inſtitution of Ieſus Chriſt) they will anſwere: It is at Geneua; the Lutherans will anſwere, at Wittemberge; and the Anabaptiſtes will anſwere at Monaſteriū; the Vbiquitaries, they wil anſwer, at …ubing; and the Trinitaries, at Petricone; and ſo conſequentlie of the reſt. And then purſue, and aſke further, where it was twentie yeares agone? They will ſaie, in the ſaied cities: but if thou come to demaund of them, where it was an hundred or two hundred yeares agone, if they are aſhamed anie thing at all to lye, they wil not anſwere at all, for there is none of them, that can denie, but that Luther, who began to preach his new Goſpell the yearebThis is a monſtrous and impudent vntruth, for conſtantly and generally wee ſay and proue by the Scripture, that our religiō hath plentifull warrant, both in the olde & newe Teſtament. 1517, was the firſt beginner of all theſe troubles, & the father of al thoſe that teach this reformed Religion. Then is it farre from that place, where thy frend was nailed at middaie, or where hee was crucified aboue 1500. yeares agone, before the newe Church was dreampt of. And therefore thou maieſt eaſilie perceaue, that this flocke cannot leade thee to the place that thou doeſt deſire: and conſequentlie, that is not the flock that wee ſhould followe. Then let vsus come vntounto the Roman Church, and demaund, where was this flocke an hundred yeares agone? They will anſwere thee, in France, Spaine, England, Germanie; and ſo ouer all Chriſtendome. And of thou aſke, where it was 500. yeares agone,cThey wil ſay ſo: therefore it was ſo? they will ſaie, In the ſaied places. And a thouſand yeares agone likewiſe: and likewiſe, a thouſand and fiue hundred yeares agone. This flocke then will not leaue thee by the waie, as the others doe, but it will leade thee vntounto the verie time of the death and paſſion ofdThis is alſo moſt vntrue, for the popiſh doctrine, from point to point, wee are able to ſhew, when it began: and how it hath growen by degrees to that which it is, not in a thouſand years after Chriſt. Chriſt, by continuance of o… doctrine, and by ſucceſsion of paſtours, which Salomon doeth call the Tabernacle of the ſheepe heardes: And therefore this is the place where thou muſt ſeeke thy Tabernacle, and quiet thy conſcience to the ende that thou bee not a loſt ſheepe, and that thou bee not readie to turne at euerie blaſt of new doctrine,eNone ſuch coggers as Papiſtes, in giuing the ſence of the Scriptures, who make not them the rule of their practiſe, but their practiſe, how mutable ſo euer, the rule to giuegive the ſence thereof by. that our new coggers of the Scriptures doe ſet forth, to deceaue the ſimple ſheepe.
The IIII. Chapter.
TO this fourth chapter, I anſwere, that with Salomon to finde out the true Church of God, wee as well as you, exhorte Chriſtes ſheepe, to followe the tracte of the flocke of Chriſt, and to feede by the tentes or Tabernacles of his ſheepheardes: that ſo they maie bee ledde on and vp, to Chriſt himſelfe. But then foraſmuch as wee hauehave learned before, by that which hath beene noted in the former Chapter, concerning the faſhion of heretiques, eſpeciallie ſeeing the ſame confirmed in you, and other heretiques and apoſtataes in theſe our daies, that euerie flocke is not Chriſtes flocke, that will pretende ſo to bee: nor they alwaies his true ſheepeheardes, that are ſo accounted, wee wiſh euerie one that wilfullie is not diſpoſed to ſuffer himſelfe to bee ſeduced, by thoſe that falſely thus pretende, to learne to bee able (as Saint Iohn hath taught all true Chriſtians in the firſt Epiſtle and fourth verſe) to trie the ſpirites, whether they be of God or no, which they ſhall and may doe in trying both the flockes, and their ſheepheardes, by the infallible worde of Chriſt contained in the Canonicall Scriptures. For Chriſtes ſheepe will heare and obey his voice, Ioh. 10. which vndoubtedlie and ſufficiently is ſounded in the written worde. For the Scriptures are able to make a man wiſe vntounto ſaluation, through the faith which is in Chriſt Ieſus. For the whole Scripture is giuen by inſpiration of God, and is profitable to teach, to improue, to correct, and to inſtruct in righteouſneſſe, that the man of God may be abſolute, being made perfit vntounto all good workes. 2. Tim. 3. And therefore his true ſheepeheardes will feede his ſheepe, with the ſincere milke of this worde, becauſe that is it which they muſt deſire, as new borne babes doe milke, that they may growe vp thereby, if ſo be they hauehave taſted how bountifull the Lord is. 1. Pet. 2. And becauſe that is it, according whereunto he that ſpeaketh muſt ſpeake, becauſe it is writen, if any mā ſpeake, let him talke as the words of God 1. Pe. 4. By which rule, if the flockes and ſheepeheardes whom wee followe, bee tryed, they ſhal bee founde the ſheepe whoſe tracte is to bee followed, and the ſheepeheardes by whoſe tentes is ſafe feeding. And contrarilie by this rule, your flockes and ſheepeheardes (come to the tryall of it when you will) ſhal bee founde flockes of goates and not of ſheepe, and foxes and wolues, ſeeking the deſtruction of the ſheepe, rather then true ſheepeheardes. But you would make the Reader beleeue, that Salomon in this place by you cyted, out of the firſt of the Canticles, doeth teach the true Church, ſafelie alwaies, to pitch her tentes, and to feede by the viſible and apparent ſucceſſion of paſtours which from age to age, can leade her without leauing her by the waie euen to Chriſtes time, Which you ſaie yours can doe, and ours cannot, boldlie aduouching, that vnleſſe we be not aſhamed to lie, wee cannot ſhew where our Church or Religion, was an hundreth yeares agoe, and that wee cannot denie, but Luther began to preach our new Goſpell, in the yeare 1517. And thus againe, partlie by this note of viſible ſucceſſion of paſtours, and partly by vpbrayding vsus with certaine differences of opinions amongſt vsus, about the maner of Chriſtes preſence, and diuerſe and ſundrie fantaſticall hereſies, that of late daies hauehave ſprung vp, and beene reuiued, you labour to iuſtifie your Synagogue of Rome, and to condemne our Church of Chriſt: which thinges you harpe vponupon, very much and often afterwarde in this your treatiſe. Wherefore to aunſwere you to all theſe thinges, here once for all: firſt I tell you, you offer violence to Salomons wordes, in making them to containe a propheſie of any ſuch perpetuall and viſible ſucceſſion of flockes and paſtours, in the poſſeſſion of one trueth, as you inferre thereupon, and make it the ſpeciall marke and note to diſcerne Chriſtes true Church, from all that falſely bee ſo called. For then it ſhould bee contrarie to that view of the ſtate of Chriſtes true Church, which I hauehave ſet downe vntounto you, and prooued by infallible arguments in the firſt Chapter: which may not be, ſe… ing the ſcripture alwaies agreeth with it ſelfe. And yet the Church may hauehave good vſe of Salomons aduiſe giuen her here, in her greateſt ruins and interruptions, of her ordinarie and viſible forme and beautie, in looking to the viſible flockes and ſheepheardes, that were before that God ſo chaſtiſed her: as in Achaz time, in looking to and following thoſe, that were in Dauids and Salomons time… in Manaſſes and Ammons time, in looking to and following thoſe in Ezechiaths & Iehoſaphats times: & in the time of the captiuity, in looking to & following thoſe, that were in Ioſiahs time. And yet doe not ſo take me, as though I thought, that either Chriſtes true Church, or the true ſheepheards thereof, did at anie time vtter… ceaſe or faile: for I am perſwaded they neuer did, nor ſhall. But this onelie is the thing that I now ſay, that though this place of the Canticles doeth ſhewe, that in no time there is any true flock… of Chriſt, but there hath gone before a flocke, and ſhepheardes, which that may ſafely followe euen to the finding of Chriſt: yet it proueth not, that there hath alwaies immediately gone before it, from time to time, ſome viſible & ſo apparent flockes and ſhepheards, one immediately ſucceeding another, as that the names of the ſheepe and ſhepheardes, are alwaies famouſly knowen, and therefore eaſily to be reckoned vp of eueryevery one: which are the thinges, which you ſeeme to inferre hereof, and therefore require of vsus to bee done, or elſe you would faine make the Reader beleeue, that wee neither are the Church, hauehave the trueth, nor true & right miniſters thereof. Wherein, many waies, you offer vsus great wrong, for after you your ſelfe (diſtruſting belike) that in any ſeate or line of Biſhops, without interruption, this can be performed (ſpeaking of your line of Popes, whereof all the ſort of you bragge in this caſe moſt, cap. 8. to vpholde and drawe along your right ſucceſſion) you tell vsus flatly, you meane not, when you ſpeak thereof, onelyonly of them, but of al Biſhops elſwhere, that they may continue it, in the interruptions of that liue ſomewhere elſe: and yet at our handes, you require vnderunder the penalty aforeſaied, that we ſhould frō age to age, and from perſon to perſon, orderly ſucceeding one another, deduce ours. For when we ſay it was continued alwaies by ſome, in ſome other places, when wee can no longer finde it in your Romiſh ſee, whereinto by little, and little, you hauehave craftily …rept: and wherein for many hundred yeares before, men of our Church, and Religion ſate and taught, you reiect that our anſwere as a ſhift. Another wrong that you offer vsus herein, is this, that your Antichriſtian Synagogue hauing according to the propheſie Reuel. 12. perſecuted our flocke into the wildernes, with the ſheepherdes thereof, you require that wee ſhould, euen in reſpect of ſuch decaied & diſtreſſed times of the church, giuegive you as euident demonſtration of our flockes and ſheepheardes, as may bee giuen thereof in the floriſhing and peaceable ſtate of the ſame. For there is no reaſon in requiring that, in the decaies and ruines of the Church, which accompanieth alwaies the Church in her proſperous and ſtanding eſtate. Beſides, herein you offer vsus the greater wrong, in that notwithſtanding it be graunted of vsus, that both perpetuall continuance of the Catholique faith, and alſo ſome kinde of ſucceſſion therefore of teachers, be neceſſary alwaies for the continuation of the Church, yet you cannot but knowe (eſpecially ſeing that propheſie before named, & that alſo 2. Theſ. 2. muſt bee fulfilled of the church of Chriſt, in reſpect of ſome time of her ſoiourning here on earth) that thereupon it followeth not, that therefore their ſucceſſion is viſible and demonſtrable alwaies, in your ſence, or elſe wee muſt yeelde, that there were none ſuch. For who is ſo ſimple, but hee is reſolued, that all men now aliue come by lineall ſucceſſion from ſome of Adams children, and yet fewe or none can bee found that can rightlie, no not the ſkilfulleſt harrold of them all, deduce their pedagree from thence. Muſt it therefore followe that there hath not alwaies beene, for all that, a certaine lineall deſcent? if you ſhould thus inferre, eueryevery one might laugh at your follie. For long proceſſe of time, diſtance of place, betwixt ſome of our progenitours and vsus, lacke of Cronicles, or the neglect of ſuch genealogyes in them, alterations of names and countries, and diuerſe ſuch like things maketh the one not onelyonly hard, but for the moſt part impoſſible, and yet no man doubteth of the certainty of the other. Euen ſo in this our preſent queſtion, moſt certaine it is, there hauehave alwaies beene both flockes & ſheepherdes, to continue both the trueth & Chriſtes church. For that wee graunt is neceſſarie: but yet through continuance of time, force of your Antichriſtian perſecution, diſtance perhaps of the flockes and ſheepeheards in place from vsus, that God in ſome ages vnderunder your tyranny hath vſed to continue his church by, and lacke of faithfull and carefull writers to cronicle ſuch matters, eſpecially your wouluiſh and foxy ſheepheardes, beeing alwaies watchfull, and mindefull to their vttermoſt, either to blot out their memories quite, in not ſuffering their Croniclers to mention them; or elſe in cauſing them to deface them, with ſtrange name and falſe ſlaunders, maketh it very hard (yea if impoſſible no marueile, you hauing the euidences, whereby we ſhould doe it, for the moſt part, a long time in your owne keeping, to vſe at your owne pleaſure) for vsus to name from time to time, the places and perſons, that hauehave alwaies ſucceeded one another, for the continuance of our faith and Church. But to returne againe to the conſideration of this place of the Canticles: further I ſaie, as I ſaied before, that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture, to proue that the Church of Chriſt may ſafely account thoſe flockes in poſſeſſion of the trueth, and therefore to bee followed: and thoſe ſheepheardes true ſheepheardes, and therefore meete alwaies to bee conſented vntounto: that lineally downe from Chriſt can deduce their perſonall ſucceſſion. For ſo (as I hauehave ſhewed in the firſt Chapter, and it is not denyed of your ſelues) ſundry heretiques in their times, hauehave done and can doe ſtill. If therefore you ſay, you meane ſtill that flocke and thoſe ſheepheardes, that together with their viſible perſonall ſucceſſion, hauehave alwaies beene in poſſeſſion of the true ancient faith, I anſwere, firſt, you begge ſtill the thing in queſtion, in ſuppoſing that, to hauehave beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and ſheepheards, which we ſay, and are able to proue, they fell from many hundreth yeares ago.
Secondly, I tell you once againe, and now this time for all, that you ſhall neuer bee able to proue, but that both that perſonall ſucceſſion may bee ſeparated from trueth, and alſo trueth from it, and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth, nor the Church of Chriſt by. Thirdly, for your collection out of this place, for the iuſtifying of your Church before ours, becauſe (as you ſay) from time to time, for this thouſand and fiue hundreth yeares, you can ſhew the deſcent and continuance of yours, and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares, no not beyonde the yeare one thouſand fiue hundreth and ſeuenteene, we affirme that both in the one, and in the other, herein you write vntruely. For firſt, if your Church as it is now either in reſpect of the doctrine, or gouernement thereof, bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apoſtles times, or for many hundreth yeares after, there is ſuch diuerſitie betwixt the one and the other, as that the one beeing founde the chaſt ſpouſe of Chriſt, the other muſt needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon. The ſimplicity of the miniſterie that then was, is turned amongſt you into a pompous, Lordly, and more then Princely prelacy. And then the Church was fedde, with the pure worde of God, conteyned in the Scriptures, and ſo ledde thereby perfectly to vnderſtand the will of God; and with you, as carefullie as may bee, that is kept from her, and in ſteede thereof, ſhee is fedde with the dreames, inuentions, and traditions of men. Then ſhe was taught to account the name of Chriſt, the onelie name, whereby commeth ſaluation, Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared: Math. 22. and now with you, beſides him, Saintes, Angels, your owne merites, and the merites of others, ſatiſfaction in this life by your ſelues, and after by others, with a number of baſer things, muſt ioyne with him in the office of interceſſion betwixt vsus and God, and in the moſt glorious worke of our ſaluation: as though hee either could not or would not, go perfectly through with the worke of our ſaluation in himſelfe, and by himſelfe, but had ſo begunne it, as that the accompliſhing and perfecting thereof were left to theſe vaine and fooliſh by-meanes. Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her, that Chriſt, in ſaying, Hoc eſt corpus meum, this is my body, meant, that it was a ſigne & figure of his body, as you may reade in Auguſtine againſt Adimantus, the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. againſt Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elſewhere, in the ancient fathers: and now contrary to nature, yea to the verie nature of a ſacrament, contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners, yours teach, that thoſe wordes being vttered by your Prieſtes, thereupon followeth ſuch a tranſubſtantiation of the bread into his bodie, that whoſoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that ſacrament, receiueth in by his mouth, the naturall bodie of Chriſt. If thus I were diſpoſed to go a long, as farre as I might, and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference, betwixt the Romiſh Church that nowe is, and that which hath beene, I ſhould euen therewith make a great booke. But further of theſe differences I hauehave noted, as you may reade Chapter 19. & 20. and elſe where in this booke. And Doctor Fulke againſt Stapletons Fortreſſe, hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the Engliſh Saxons in the time of Auguſtine the monke (who was 600. yeares after Chriſt at the leaſt) and the Popiſh church, that now is; and infinite be the differences then, betwixt the Church before, in her puerer times, and the Popiſh Synagogue now. And therefore whatſoeuer you bragge, neither you, nor all your fellowes, ſhall euer be able to proue indeede, that your perſonall ſucceſſion hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and ſelfeſame doctrine of Chriſt, vntounto theſe daies.
And to come to the other point, therein I ſaie, you write vntruely alſo. For ſo far of is it, that we graunt Luther to hauehave beene the firſt that preached the Goſpell that wee now embrace, and that wee cannot ſhewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before: that there is nothing more common with vsus, in anſwering this your obiection of newnes, then to tell you, that ſo farre of is it, that it is newe indeede, that it is the very ancient Religion and Goſpell, taught both in the olde teſtament and newe: and therefore (though it grieue you) wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets, Chriſt and his Apoſtles, taught the verie ſame, and no other, and all the ancient doctours and fathers, as farre forth as they were able to iuſtify that which they taught, by the Scriptures, were ſheepheardes of our church, and teachers of our Religion. Indeede, we confeſſe, that as Hilkiah the Prieſt in Ioſiahs time (2. King. 22.) found the booke of God, and was ſo a meanes to bring thoſe thinges to light, that by the wicked proceedings of Manaſſes, Amon and others, had for a certaine ſeaſon lien hid: So Luther in theſe late daies was a ſinguler inſtrument of God, to reuiue and bring to light diuerſe pointes of Chriſtian faith, which your Antichriſtian Synagogue had long laboured to ſmother, and hide from the eies of the Church. And yet hereupon it no more followeth, that he was the firſt that preached our Religion, then vponupon the former it followed, that Hilkiah was then firſt the meanes, to preach the lawe of God. And I tell you truely, that I cannot maruaile yet ſufficientlie, that anie man of anie reaſon, iudgement and learning (as you would ſeeme to bee) ſhould be ſo farre paſt all ſhame, as confidently to ſet downe in print, that wee cannot deny, but that Luther 1517. began firſt our Church and Religion: & that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before, that taught it: when you cannot be ignorant (vnleſſe your ignorance be verie groſſe) that we name vntounto you verie manie, and that in all ages, to hauehave beene of the ſame Religion and Church, that wee are now of. For firſt there is nothing more vſuall with vsus, then to tell you, that all the ancient Patriarches, Prophets, Euangeliſts, and Apoſtles (witneſſe the canonicall Scriptures) liued and died in our Church and Religion. The ſame opinion wee tell you wee hauehave of all the Chriſtian martyrs (whoſe number is infinite) that were ſlaine in the firſt 300. yeares after Chriſt, vnderunder the 10. bloudy perſecutions, that were in that time. For during that time, our Religion was onelie profeſſed and embraced in the Church, and verie little or nothing was there of thoſe opinions, for the which eſpeciallie, wee account your Religion Antichriſtian (vnleſſe it were of heretiques, and ſuch as had learned it of them) in thoſe daies once thought of. And after for three hundreth yeares more at leaſt, in all the moſt ſubſtantiall pointes of Chriſtian Religion, and the greateſt queſtions betwixt vsus and you, all the ancient doctours, and the Chriſtians that liued in their times (as wee hauehave diuerſe times ſayed, ſo hauehave wee often ſo proued it, that you ſhall neuer bee able therein to diſproue vsus) were fully ours. And though after theſe times, when Boniface the third, had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas, the Antichriſtian title of Oecumenicall, or vniuerſall Biſhop, the myſterie of iniquity did eueryevery day work more plainelie then other, & haſted to his height: yet (as I hauehave ſhewed in my anſwere to your publiſhers preface, and in the ſixteenth Chapter of this my anſwere to your ſelfe, where you bragge againe, as you doe here, of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance) there were after theſe times from time to time, that both ſpied the growth and proceeding thereof, and ſet themſelues againſt it. For Bertram & Iohannes Scotus, were with vsus againſt your groſſe real preſēce, aboue 700. years ago. Trithemius maketh mē tion of a booke writen 400. yeares ago, which is ſuppoſed was writen by one Arnulphus, for (as Sabellicus and Platina teſtifie) much about that time was hee put to death of the Romiſh cleargie: in which booke the authour grieuouſly complaineth, of the enormities amongſt the ſaied Cleargie, and findeth many faultes in the Romiſh Church. Gisburne alſo in his ſtorie writeth, that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarenſis and Gerrhardus, preached earneſtly, that the Pope was Antichriſt: and that they had thirtie followers, whom they brought into England, who were perſecuted then, here for preaching that, and other ſuch like doctrine againſt the Romiſh Church. Much about this time (but ſomewhat rather before) a company of Chriſtians (who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenſes) did floriſh: and there were great multitudes of them, euen about Tholoſſa (whereof you Maſter Albine are called Archdeacō ) who did vehemently reſiſt your Pope, and his proceedings, ſetting vp vntounto themſelues a Biſhop, whom they called Bartholomew, oppugning the groſſe pointes of your Religion, euen as wee doe: witneſſe Nicolas Triuet and others, in their Stories. Hildegarde, though ſhee were a Nunne, yet in the yeare 1146. propheſied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome, and bitterly inueighed againſt the wickedneſſe of your Cleargie and Friers. So did Geffery Chaucer about the ſame time (namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland) very ſaltly taunt, and deride the vanity of your frierly ſuperſtition. In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions, whoſe followers after had giuen them diuerſe names, to diſgrace them withall. For your frendes call them Waldenſes, Albigenſes, pauperes de Lugduno, Picardos, Boſlauienſes, Thaboritas, and Leoniſtas, changing their titles and names, according to the diuerſities of places and times they liued in, howſoeuer their Religion was all one. And theſe hauehave beene of ancient time, and of great continuance, in very many places, namely in Prouince, Sarmatia, Lyuonia, Bohemia, Morauia, Polonia, Sileſia, Belgia, and in Calabria: and of you whereſoeuer, or whenſoeuer they were, they hauehave beene cruelly perſecuted for heretiques: and yet if their opinions bee iudged of, not as you (the more to diſgrace them) hauehave charged them, but as they in their owne confeſſions of their faith and Apologies, hauehave ſet them downe, they in many thinges helde the verie ſame that wee doe, and condemned the ſame for errours in you, that wee now doe. They are of 400. yeares continuance at leaſt. For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne (for he was Pope ere he died) writeth, handling the ſtories of Boeme, that they had continued vntounto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth, that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde, and found ſound, concerning God and the merites of Chriſt (for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Chriſtes, to make vp full ſatiſfaction and redemption, is of farre later inuention) and their life (ſaieth hee) was commendable, but in the doctrine of the Sacrament, they were found to differ from the Church of Rome. Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago, who (as he himſelfe ſaith) was often at the examination of them, in his booke of inquiſitions, writing of them, calling them Leoniſts, confeſſeth that ſome ſaied they had continued from Sylueſters time, and that ſome ſaied, they had beene euen from the time of the Apoſtles: & he further reports that they had great ſhew of holy life, in liuing iuſtly before men, and that they beleeued all things well of God, and all the articles contained in the creede: onelyonly he chargeth them, that they hated & blaſphemed the Romiſh Church. And this he further writes, that there was no land, wherein that ſect did not creepe, & ſpeaking but of thē that were thē but in one cuntrey, yet this he teſtifieth, that they had there, ten ſchooles in one pariſh, called Camach, that there were forty congregations or Churches of them, eueryevery one hauing their leaders or teachers, and that their power in his time was ſuch, that none (as hee ſaieth) durſt then openlie reſiſt them. There are yet to bee ſeene (as good authours report) the conſultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Biſhops in France againſt them, writen three hundreth yeares ago; namely of Narbonenſis, Arelatenſis, Aquenſis, and Albanenſis: yea 355. yeares ago, I read, there was a Councell kept in Tholoſſa eſpecially againſt them. And yet though both of ancient times, and later daies, the Synagogue of Rome hath ſought to roote them out by all poſſible cruelty, they and their ſucceſſours continue vntounto this day, in great numbers in Bohemia, and in other places.
But becauſe you very oft in this your booke, and the reſt of your ſide continually beare the ſimple reader, and vnlearned Chriſtian in hand, that before Luther there were none of our religion, that hauehave ſo condemned your Church and religion, as we doe: I wil vouchſafe for the better inabling of eueryevery one, that ſhall read this my anſwere, to ſee your vanity and impiety (though this which I hauehave noted already be ſufficient to lay open your folly) to proceed yet ſomewhat further in this matter. Wherefore (to go on in the courſe of times) though your popiſh Church hath bene in her ruffe, and at the heigheſt, that euer ſhe was, this latter 400 yeares, yet we are able to ſhew, that there hauehave bene many euen in this time from time to time (and that in ſundry places) that hauehave ioyned with vsus againſt you, & that therefore, there is no ſuch newneſſe, or ſtrangenes in our religion a d doings, as you would make the ignorant beleeue. For in the dayes of Gregory the 9, in the yeare 1230 the Greeke Church, and other Eaſterne Churches did quite forſake communion with yours: who euer ſince ioyne with vsus, in a number of thinges againſt you, as namely in withſtanding the ſupremacy of your Romiſh Biſhop, as appeareth not onelyonly by one Epiſtle that Germanus Petriarch of Conſtantinople wrote vntounto the pope in the yeare 1237, but alſo by a large booke, writen about the yeare 1384 by Nilus Archbiſhop of Theſſalonica, wherein he doeth not onelyonly confute his Supremacy, euen as we doe, but alſo he enueigheth againſt al thoſe that hold communion with the Popiſh or latin Church. And (as it appeareth in ancient record, in the Church of Herford, wherein 29 of the Articles, wherein they differ from the Church of Rome, are ſet downe) they ioine not only with vsus in this point, in ſeperating thēſelues frō the Romiſh Church, & in denying the popes ſupremacie (which is the very foundation of your Church and religion) but alſo in denying purgatory, and maſſes for the dead, in holding it lawfull for their miniſters, to enioy the benefit of matrimony, in not vſing any priuate maſſe, in not denying the cup to any that receaue, in not miniſtring the communion in priuate houſes, in not vſing extreme vnction, and in ſundry other points. And by diuers Epiſtles writen from thence of late, extant in print both in greeke and latin, to Chitreus and other Germans, it euidently appeareth, that they ioyne with vsus againſt the Romiſh Church in many other great and weighty points of our religiō, and that great hope there is, that they might eaſily be brought to ioyne with vsus in the reſt. Beſides theſe Eaſterne churches, euē here in theſe weſterne parts, euident it is, that there hauehave beene many great, learned and famous perſons, with innumerable followers, at all tymes from age to age, in theſe latter 400 yeares, when the tyranny of your popes to repreſſe them hath bene the greateſt and ſtrongeſt, that euer it was, which yet hauehave openly with vsus ſtood forth againſt them and their religion. For Fredericke the ſecond (as diuers other Emperours had beene before him) as namely Conſtantine the 5. Leo his ſonne, and Conſtantine the 6 in the Eaſt, and Henry the 4 and 5 in the Weſt) was a notable Antagoniſt of the 3 popes in his time, contending againſt them, to maintaine the authority of Chriſtian princes againſt their vſurped Supremacy ouer them, about the yeare 1260, as notoriouſly the Cronicles of thoſe times writen by your owne men Platina, Sabelicus and others declare. And 20 years before that, Krātzius teſtifieth in his hiſtory: that there were many that preached openly in Sueuia, that the Pope was an heretique, his clergy Symoniakes, and generally they all ſeducers of the people. Ten yeares after that, floriſhed Arnoldus De nouâ villâ, a Spaniard, who taught, that Sathā had thē ſeduced the world, that the faith thē taught, was but ſuch as deuils had (meaning belike a bare hiſtoricall faith) that the pope led men to hell, that he and his clergy did falſifie the doctrine of Chriſt, that maſſes were naught & not to be ſaied for the dead &c. and therefore your popiſh Church condemned him for an heretique. Much what about the ſame time was Gulielmus De Sancto amore, a maſter and chiefe ruler then in Paris, who went as farre as Arnoldus, applying the ſame Scriptures, which concerne Antichriſt, as we doe, to the pope and his clergy: and therefore hee alſo was condemned for an heretique, and his bookes burnt by your popiſh rout. And in the yeare 1260 Laurentius Anglicus a maſter of Paris alſo, tooke this Williams part againſt the pope, & wrote a booke in his defence. In the yeare 1290 Petrus Iohānes, a Minorite, directly preached the pope to be Antichriſt, and Rome great Babylon, and therefore he was burnt after he was dead. 30 yeares and more before this, Robert Groſthead, a famous learned man, and Biſhop of Lincolne (for hee died in the yeare one thouſand two hunderd fifty three) was a great withſtander of the popes tyranny, and three dayes before his death, hauing conference with his clergy, he laboureth to make them ſee by ſundry demonſtrations, that the pope was Antichriſt, and his doings Antichriſtian. King Philip of France, about the yeare one thouſand three hundred, was a great withſtander of the Supremacy, which now the Pope challengeth, and a reſiſter in his dominions, of ſundry of his enormities; and William Nagareta, and the prelates of France, then ioyned with their king againſt the pope. Groſthead, this king Philip, and his clergy, as afterward king Edward the 3. king of England, in the yeare 1346, deſpiſed the popes curſe, & appealed frō him to God. There is in an ancient Chronicle of S. Albons, a notable Epiſtle of one Caſsiodorus to the Church of England: wherein are layed forth a number of lamentable abuſes in the Roman Church: in the yeare one thouſand three hundred twenty eight. In the Extrauagants, we reade, that Marſillius Patauinus, Iohannes de Ganduno, Michael Cheſenas, Petrus de Carborea, and Iohannes de Poliaco (all great learned men) were condemned by the Pope for preaching againſt his Supremacy, and other errours of that Church of his, about the yeare 1326. There were thē alſo many learned mē more, that diſputed & wrote againſt his Supremacy, & which took part wt Ludouicke the Emperour againſt him, as William Occam, Luitpoldus, Andreas Landanenſis, Vlricus Hangenor, the Emperors treaſurer, and others. Dantes, liuing in the yeare one thouſand three hundred, wrote againſt the Pope, the orders of religious men, and the Doctours of the Decrees, ſaying, that theſe were three great enemies to the trueth: he flatly hath left in writing in his cāticle of Purgatory, that the Pope of a paſtor was become a woulfe, & that he was the whoar of Babylon. In the yeare 1350. Gregory Ariminenſis, Andreas de Caſtro, and Burdianus, taught as we doe; againſt your doctrine of freewill and merites. Taulerus then a preacher in Argentine, preached openly againſt your doctrine of mans merites, and praying to Saints &c. And Franciſcus Petrarcha floriſhing about that time. in his ninteenth & twentieth Epiſtle, calleth the ſeate of the papacy, the whoar of Babylon, the temple of hereſie and treachery: and in ſuch ſort deſcribeth it, both at Rome, and at Avinion (where then the Pope ſate) that he (as it ther ſeemeth) coūted it the greateſt euil, that can befall a man, to be made pope. Iohannes de rupe ſciſſâ, about 10. yeares after, in the yeare 1340, was ſo ſore a rebuker of the abhominations of the cleargy, that he was therefore impriſoned: he alſo compared the pope to a bird, richly clad with other birdes feathers: & yet ſo, as that for the pride of that birde he prophecieth, that the time would come, when the other birdes would call for their feathers againe, and ſo make him know himſelfe. Cōradus Hagar one of the city Herbipolis, about this time preached 24 yeares (as it appeareth in the Recordes of Otho, biſhop of that City) that the maſſe was no propitiatory ſacrifice either for the quicke, or the dead. And within three yeares after, the booke called Paenitentiarius Aſini, was writen, wherein the Pope is reſembled to the Woulfe, the Cleargy to the Foxe, and the Laitie to the poore Aſſe. In the yeare one thouſand three hundred and fifty, Gerrhardus Ridder, wrote a book, called Lachrima Eccleſiae, wherein he vehemētly inueigheth againſt begging Friers. Michael Cheſenas before mentioned, amongſt other things, preached, that the pope was Antichriſt, and Rome Babylon. Hee had many followers, whereof I read ſome were burned, as Iohannes de Caſtilone, & Franciſcus de Arcatarâ, and he himſelfe beeing Prouincial of the Grey Friers, was depriued and condemned, in the yeare one thouſād three hūdred twenty two, or there abouts. And in the time of Innocent the 6. 1353, I read, that two Frāciſcane Friers were burnt at Auinion: whereof the one was one Iohn de Rochetalayda, otherwiſe called Hayabolus, witnes Premonſtrat: and Henry Herford. Who (as Henry of Herford writeth) preached in the time of Pope Clement the 6, in the yeare 1345, that he was commanded by God to preach, that Rome was Babylon, and that the pope, and his Cardinals were very Antichriſt: and beeing brought before the pope for it, to his face he boldly did aduouch the ſame. Brigit (whom you your ſelues hauehave made a Saint) about the yeare 1370, in her booke of Reuelations, was a moſt bitter rebuker of the pope and his cleargy: and ſo likewiſe was Katherina Senenſis 2 yeares after, as Antonine writeth in his 3 part of his ſtory, terming the pope a murderer of ſoules, a ſpiller & piller of the flocke of Chriſt, ſaying, that they were more abhominable, thē Iewes; more cruel, thē Iudas; more vniuſt, thē Pilate; & worſe then Lucifer himſelfe. And ye former of thē plainly propheſied, that their kingdō ſhould be thrown downe as a milſtōe into the deepe: & that the clergy had turned al Gods cōmandemēts into theſe two words, Da pecuniā, giuegive money. Mathias Pariſiēſis a Bohemiā, about the year 1370 wrot a large book of Antichriſt, prouing him to be come, & that the pope was he, & the Locuſts in the Apocalyps (he ſaith) are his hypocritical clergy. About this very time Greg. ye 11, ſent a bul to the Arch-Biſhop of Prage, ſtirring him vp thereby to perſecute one Melitzius, and his followers, who is charged in that bull to hauehave preached, that the Pope was Antichriſt, and to hauehave had congregations following him. As Bruſhius writeth, in the yeare 1390. there were burned at Bringa 36. citizens of Moguntia, for the doctrine of the Waldēſes, holding alſo that the Pope was Antichriſts and Maſſens recordeth, that there were burnt about the ſame time 140. for the ſame cauſe in the prouince of Narbon: and the ſame authour teſtifieth, that in the yeare 1210. 24 ſuffered at Paris, and that the next yeare there were 400. burned for the like cauſe; 80. beheaded; Prince Armericus hanged; and the Lady of the caſtle ſtoned to death. Houeden alſo noteth, that about theſe times, there were great numbers put to death, in France for this cauſe of Religion. Trithemius writeth that Ecchardus a dominicke Frier, was put to death at Hiddelberge in the yeare 1330, for withſtanding the Popiſh doctrine. There is an olde monument of proceſſe againſt 44…. perſons for the ſame cauſe in Pomerania, Marchia and places there about in the yeare 1391. And certaine it is, that if the recordes and ſtatutes of all countries in theſe weſterne partes ſhould bee ſearched, euen thereby would it appeare, that the number of thoſe that hauehave gaineſaied the Pope, & his proceedings, in the time of his greateſt floriſhing, and cruelty' hauehave beene from time to time infinite, how much greater then, is it likely, was the number of them, that informer times (when hee was not growen to that power to vexe the ſeruants of god, as he hath beene for theſe laſt 300. or 400. yeares) hauehave profeſſed the trueth boldely againſt him? Thus are we come to Iohn Wicklifes time, who floriſhed here in England about the yeare of the Lord 1372; and yet I hauehave, for the auoiding of too, too much tediouſnes, omitted the names of a number of famous men, that hauehave alſo withſtoode poperie, and ioyned with vsus in ſundrypointes againſt them, in thoſe times that I hauehave run thorow, as namely Alcuinus Archbiſhop of Canterburie, directly with vsus againſt them in the matter of reall preſence, Aelfricus, Ioachim Abbot of Calabria, Arnoldus Brixianus, Almericus a learned Biſhop in Innocents time the third, iudged a… heretique, for teaching (as we doe) againſt images; Beringaiius, Reymundus Earle of Toloſſa, Lord Peter de Cogneriis, Eudo Duke of Burgandie, the Archbiſhop of Armah, and infinite others. I might alſo here againe hauehave remembred that with H. Mutius writeth, of an 100 burnt in one day in Alſatia, vnderunder Innocent the 3, in the yeare 1215, when Antichriſt in the Lateran councell, bringing in the new and monſtrous article of Tranſubſtantiation, ſhewed himſelfe to be euen growen to his higheſt degree of iniquity.
But to let theſe paſſe, and to proceede: Iohn Wicklife (as it is famouſly knowen) was with vsus againſt you in the moſt and weightieſt things betwixt you and vsus in controuerſie, and therefore in your councell of Conſtance, you condemned him and cauſed his dry and rotten bones to be taken vp againe and burned. Whiles he liued, he had many great learned men here in England that ioyned with him, as namely Nicholas Herford, Philip Repington, Iohn Aſhton, and Laurence Redeman, and ſo many followers had he, and they and hee had ſuch fauour and protection, eſpecially of the Duke of Lancaſter, that then was, that though your prelates here in England vexed and moleſted them what they could; yet they and their fauourers in ſhort tyme grew to that ſtrength and multitude, that by the yeare 1422 Henry Chicheley then Archbiſhop of Canterbury certified the pope, that they all could not be ſuppreſſed, they were ſo many, but by force of warre. Now betwixt Iohn Wicklifes tyme and the floriſhing of Iohn Hus (which was about the yeare 1410) very many both here and elſewhere for following Wicklife were perſecuted, as namely here in England William Swinderley, Walter Brute, William Sautry, Iohn Badby, and William Thorpe, whereof diuerſe were moſt cruellie burned. Then when Iohn Hus and Hierome of Prage had beene burnt at the councell of Conſtance, for taking the like courſe in Boemia, that Iohn Wicklife & his fellowes had done before here in England, about the yeare 1417, the religion that we now profeſſe began to gather ſo great ſtrength in Boemia, that the profeſſours therof were able, not onelyonly to defend themſelues, by force of armes, from the intended oppreſſions againſt them by the Biſhop of Rome and his adherentes, but alſo to get many glorious victories againſt the ſtrongeſt powers, that the pope could raiſe againſt them. Now from the yeare 1410, when Hus began to floriſh, vntounto Luthers tyme 1517, wonderful many both there in Boemia, here in Englād and elſewhere, continually roſe vp and ſtoode forth, euen vntounto the death, againſt popery, in the profeſſion of our religion. Amōgſt whō here in England, at one tyme, in the yeare 1413 there were burned in Saint Giles fielde, vnderunder the name of Lollardes 36. Amōgſt whom Sir Roger Acton Knight, Maſter Iohn Browne, and Maſter Iohn Beuerley, were put to death. After, 1415, Richard Claydon, and Richard Turning were burnt in Smithfield: about this tyme 16. of name, were perſecuted in Kent, and very many in other places of this Land. Within a while after, in the yeare one thouſand foure hundred twenty two, William Tailor was burnt here, and two yeares after that, William White was burne: and betwixt that time and the yeare 1430, father Abraham of Colcheſter, Iohn Waddon, and Richard Houeden were burnt. And about that time Paul Crow a Bohemiā was burnt there, & Thomas Rhodonenſis, at Rome. And ere Luther beganne to preach againſt the Pope and his doctrine, from the yeare one thouſand foure hundred and thirty, here ſuffered for the ſame religion that we now preach and embrace, amongſt many others Richard Wich, Iohn Gooſe, one Babran, one Ierome, and others with him, Iames Marden, William Tilſworth, one Father Roberts, and Sir Iohn Olde-caſtle, the Lord Cobham. Now ſince Luther, I hope you will not deny, but the nū ber of them that are on our ſide againſt you, euen in theſe Weſterne parts, cary ſuch a viſible ſhew, that you cannot but heare and ſee the multitudes thereof, round about you, at home and abroad to be ſuch, that I dare ſay your harts begin to feare, that if the number increaſe but a while longer, as it hath done of late, your Romā prelate is like to turne vp his heeles, & to leeſe his glory in theſe weſterne parts, aſwel as hee hath done long ago, in the Eaſterne cuntries. And therefore you cannot but likewiſe thinke, that he doth very wiſely & prouidently to ſend before hand (as he doth) his Iheſuits amōgſt the ſauage and wilde Indians, to prepare him there a new kingdome, againſt he hath loſt his old here. For not onelyonly vnderunder your owne noſes in Italie and Spaine, and elſewhere, whereſoeuer your antichriſtian tyranny cauſeth your religion to hauehave outward and publicke allowance, to your griefe you ſee, doe what you can, our religion findeth ſtill many conſtant confeſſours euen vntounto death, and hath done now theſe many yeares: but alſo you know, that ſo many kingdomes and cuntries, hauehave giuen & yet doe, open allowance to ours, and defyance to yours as antichriſtian; that by this time, you cannot but ſee, your old argument of vniuerſality, groweth faſt to be out of date & force with you, and beginneth a pace to ſtand on our ſide. For euē in theſe Weſterne parts, our doctrine is embraced and profeſſed, and hath beene now a good while, with the allowance of publicke authority, and yours openly defaced, writen and preached againſt as antichriſtian, in the kingdomes of England, Ireland, Scotland, Denmarke, Sweden, and France; likewiſe in Bohemia, and in Polonia in diuers whole territories & Dukedomes, in Holand and Zeland, and in the Prince of Ruſſia his dominions. And beſides who knoweth not, that in like maner it is now, & hath beene long, in the Dukedome of Saxonie and of Brunſwicke, in the dominions of the Palſgraue of Rhene, the Dukedome of Wittenberg, & in the territories of the Lantgraue of Heſsia, and the Marques of Brandeburge, beſides the great common weals of Heluetia, Rhetia, Vallis Tellina, and the cuntries of diuers other noble men in other places of Germany and elſewhere?
But they that hereby ſufficiently doe not perceiue the folly & falſhood of your ſaying, that before Luther we can name none to hauehave beene of this mind, I refer them for further confutation of that your ſhameleſſe vntrueth, vntounto Illiricus Catalogue of the witneſſes of the trueth, to the Centuries of them of Magdeburge, and to maſter Foxes Actes and monumēts of the Church, where they ſhal finde not onelyonly much of theſe thinges, here briefly touched by me, more at large ſet down, but alſo further proofe out of good authors, that this religion which wee nowe profeſſe, hath had alwaies ſince Chriſt, to theſe dayes in once place or other, both embracers and teachers of it. And therefore though it hath not alwayes had ſo viſible and glorious a ſucceſſion of pompous, ambitious, and proud prelates, as yours hath had, for theſe later tymes, ſince Antichriſt grew to his pride and height; yet it hath neuer beene without flockes and ſheepheardes, one going before another in the profeſſion of our religion, euen vp from our dayes vntounto Chriſt. But when for very ſhame, conuicted with the force of the trueth, you are driuen to confeſſe, that in ſome parte it may be true, that there were alwaies ſome that ioyned with vsus, yet to driue vsus from alleadging their names and ſucceſſion againſt you, you ſay, they yet helde ſo many different and lewde opinions, that we cannot fetch any continuance to our faith or religion from them. Whereunto I anſwer, firſt, that we are not to beleeue your reportes of them, but their owne Apologies and writings: whereby it appeareth, that it hath bene alwaies your faſhion (the more thereby to diſcredit thē) to charge them to holde a number of abſurd opinions, which they neuer held. Beſides, I ſay, though it may be in ſome points, we and they differ, yet as long, as we & they agree in the foūdation, we hauehave learned to account them our brethren. 1. Cor. 3. and ſo to ioyne with them, in that which they hold well. And laſtly (to driue you from this ſhift) we tell you, that if you will countenance your religion and Church with none, but with thoſe that agree with you fully in all pointes, there is neuer an ancient father for 600 yeares, no not any writer, or paſtour in the Church of any good credit, for 1000 yeares, that you may make any reckoning of: & that (which then wil go very neare you) euen ſince Auguſtine the monkes comming into England (as I hauehave ſaied) and for 300 yeares after him, your glorious ſucceſſion muſt faile: there are ſo many apparent differences for ſo long ſpace at leaſt, betwixt the opinions, that your paſtors and doctors hold now, and them that were held then. Take heede therefore, whiles you meaſure thus to vsus, and ſo ſeeke to diſgrace them, whoſe names we cite, that the ſame be not meaſured to you againe, & ſo the necke of your viſible Succeſſion be broken, to the perill of the life of your Church, which draweth her breath thereby.
Now to come to your diſgracing of our Church with the difference of opinion betwixt Luther and Zuinglius, and your laying to our charge, all the hereſies, that hauehave ſprung vp, ſince Luther began firſt to preach againſt you, therein do you vsus manifold wrong. For who knoweth not, that it is no ſtrange or new thing, to finde the deare ſeruants of God, and the true members of Chriſts Church ſometimes and in ſome things differing, and hoatly diſſenting in opinion? Doe we not read (Mat. 16.) that one thing ſeemed good to Peter, and the contrary ſeemed, and was indeed, good in Chriſts iudgement? Did not Peter take one courſe, and Paul another at Antioch, Galat. 2. inſomuch that Paul there rebuked Peter openly and ſharpely? And finde we not (Act. 15.) Paul and Barnabas, growen to that heat of contention, about the receiuing againe or refuſing of Iohn Marke, that they parted companies? And if we leaue the Scriptures and go downe to later times, and view the ſtate of the Church euen in the pureſt times thereof, we ſhall finde it no ſtrange thing to ſee diuerſities of opinions, and therefore alſo hoat contentions, betwixt thoſe, whom yet we will and muſt account the true members of the Church. Betwixt Polycrates & Victor, the Eaſt and Weſt Churches, Irenaeus and certaine other Biſhops of France, and ſome Popes, the contention about the obſeruation of Eaſter, was ſuch Euſe. 5.21.22.23.24. that one ſide excommunicated another, that diuers Synods were held to appeaſe it, and yet it cōtinued 300 yeares & more. And who knoweth not, that there was contention betwixt Cypriā & other Biſhops of Africke; & Cornelius & Stephanus Biſhops of Rome, for yt they euē thē at Rome, encroched too much (as ye other thought) to intermeddle within ye iuriſdictiōs of the Biſhops of Africke, in receiuing condēned & excō municated fugitiues, that ran to Rome frō thence. Neither was the controuerſie ſmall betwixt them, about the rebaptizing of thoſe, that had beene before onelyonly baptized by heretiques. For proofe of both which points, I refer you to the third and fourth Epiſtles of Cyprians firſt booke of Epiſtles, and to the firſt Epiſtle of his ſecond booke, and to the third and fourth Chapters of Euſebius ſeuēth booke. Baſil alſo, and the Church of Caeſarea (as it is well knowen) were at hoat contention about Eccleſiaſticall ſonges and ceremonies. Theophilus of Alexandria, and Chryſoſtome of Conſtantinople, had betweene them a violent and troubleſome contention, and great part taking there was of both ſides, and that along time. Cyrillus of Alexandria, wrote againſt Theodoret, in a controuerſie of Catholicke religion. Betwixt Miletius a Biſhop of Aegypt, and one Peter of Alexandria, and their followers of both ſides, there aroſe and continued a long whyle, to the great trouble of the Church, a lamentable contention. All Eccleſiaſticall ſtories (for the moſt part) hauehave with griefe made report of theſe: yea downe from Chriſt to the age wherein eueryevery one of them wrote, it too plainly appeares in them, that there was neuer yet any one century of yeares, but it hath had new contentions and thoſe many, not onelyonly betwixt heretiques and catholickes, but alſo euen amongſt thoſe that otherwiſe of both ſides, were to bee reputed ſounde Chriſtians. Hierom and Auguſtine (as all men will confeſſe) were in their times worthy ſo to be accounted, and yet it appeareth in their works, that there was great diuerſity of opinions, and that in many things of great moment betwixt them. Epiphanius Biſhop of Cyprus and Chryſoſtome (of whom I ſpake before) were both famous Chriſtians, and yet the ſtories of their tymes ſhew, that they were bitter enemies. It is notoriouſly knowen, that amongſt the Biſhops aſſembled againſt the Arrians at the councell of Nice, Conſtantine by the bookes offered vntounto him one againſt an other found, that they then had amongſt themſelues many contentions and varieties of opinions: and infinite it were, to reckon vp all the examples that might eaſily be found to this end. Indeede I reade, for theſe and ſuch like differences, the Iewes and Heathen people, mocked at the Chriſtians, and hereby ſought mightily to deface them and their religion: ſeuenth Stromat: Clement: Alexandrini. But I neuer read, that either then or ſince, euer any ſounde Chriſtian (though for this cauſe they tooke occaſion to mourne) yet that they or any of them tooke occaſion to condemne either the one ſide, or the other, or both; as not to be therefore at all of the Church of Chriſt. For, notwithſtanding theſe differences, they ſaw, that they ioyned togither otherwiſe as brethren in holding togither the fundamentall pointes. And that they, whom you call Lutherans & Zuinglians, doe ſo, the booke of late ſet forth of the Harmony of the confeſſions of all the Churches, that hereabouts profeſſe the Goſpell, doeth make it moſt manifeſt and euident. And therfore for any force, that this reaſon carieth with it, this their differēce (which is in effect only about the maner of the preſēce of Chriſt in the Sacramēt) they both may be mēbers of the true anciēt Catholick Church, as wel as theſe other, whō I hauehave named.
Another wronge that herein they offer vsus is this, that beeing themſelues at variance amongſt themſelues, and hauing had many and great contentions, and yet hauing ſtill ſome, about as great a matter of religion, as this: that yet forgetting the beame in their owne eies, like hypocrites, they are ſo buſie with the moate in ours. For who ſo readeth the hiſtories of their Popes writen by their owne frendes, beſides a number of hoat and contentious ſchiſmes, troubling all Chriſtendome, for many yeares togither, yea ſometimes fourty years, continuing betwixt their Popes & Antipopes, he ſhall finde it ſo common a thing for the ſucceeding Pope, to contrary the proceedings of his predeceſſour, as though the chiefe glorie of their papacy lay in that: and therefore, poore Gratian tooke a comberſome worke in hand, to make a concorde of ſuch diſcording Canons. Their religion conſidered, it is one of the greateſt controuerſies that can be, whither the pope or a generall councell, hauehave the ſuperiour authority; and ſo muſt be the carier of the Churches tongue, to decide and determine controuerſies: and yet euen in this controuerſie, they are ſo at concorde, that the councell of Conſtance and Baſil, determined one way, and the councels of Florence and Ferraria the other way, and yet both ſides hath his ſtout champions. The Scotiſtes and Thomiſtes many an hundred yeares hauehave beene at contention, & yet (doubtles) are not agreed, about the conception of the Virgin Mary, whither it were in ſinne or no, & about diuers & ſundry other great myſteries of their religion. Yea euen in the Sacrament of the body and bloude of Chriſt (wherein they would ſeeme to be at greateſt vnity) yet if a man were diſpoſed to note the diuers opinions therein amongſt themſelues, he ſhould ſcarſe euer knowe, when to make an ende. For there be ſome of them that holde, that there Chriſts body is torne and chewed with the teeth (as it appeareth in the Recantation, that they preſcribe to Beringarius) others (as Guymund: de Conſecra: Diſt: 2.) thinke that too groſſe. Some (as Gardener) would hauehave Hoc to ſignifie indiuiduum vagum, a certaine thing that is, but they cannot tell what: others now would hauehave it to note that, which is vnderunder the accidentes of bread and wine. Scotus and Innocentius the fourth, holde conſecration to be, not by the fiue wordes, but by Chriſts bleſſing: others holde now that it is done, by the fiue wordes. When it commeth to the eating, ſome holde that it entreth the mouth, but no further: others wil hauehave it to paſſe into the ſtomacke, but not into the guttes: others wil hauehave it to go thither alſo. Infinite are the queſtions, that they are fallen into about this matter. And in their laſt conuenticle at Trident, where they had hoped to hauehave healed all theſe ſores, yet euen then there grew a great contention betwixt two great captaynes of theirs, Archbiſhop Catharinus, and Frier Soto; and that about no ſmall matters, namely, about aſſured confidence of the fauour of God: Predeſtination, originall ſinne, free-will, and ſuch like matters; Inſomuch, that for all the councell could doe, for ſix yeares together, they continuallie went on in writing bookes bitterly one againſt another. The ſame Catharin alſo, wrote a booke againſt Caietan a Cardinall, laying therein to his charge 200. errours. Cōtention alſo the ſame Catharin had, with Frāciſcus Torrenſis, a man otherwiſe of his owne faction, about ſingle life of prieſts, & reſidence of Biſhops, both which, the one helde was (as hee taught therein) warranted by Gods worde, the other ſtoutly holding the contrary. In the Articles of iuſtification, free grace, and originall ſinne, Ruard Tapper a great Papiſt and Deane of Colen, in his ſecond tome, wrote againſt Piggius an Archpiller of that Synagogue, contending to proue, that he was deceiued and erred in thoſe pointes. But what ſhould I take vponupon me, to reckon vp the contentions and controuerſies that are amongſt them: For certaine it is, they are ſo many and infinite, that a man, if he were diſpoſed, might write a booke of a whole quire of paper, conſiſting onelyonly of a bare recitall of the differences of opinions, that their writers hauehave ſet downe in their owne bookes, about points and queſtions of religion. And yet ſee, as though there neuer had beene iarre amongſt them, they brag of vnity amongſt the ſimple, and labour our diſgrace, with the obiection of variety of opinions amongſt vsus, eſpecially about this one point, of the maner of Chriſts reall preſence in the ſacrament.
But ſeeing now hereby in parte you ſee, at what agreement they are, I hope you thinke it reaſon; that they ſhould agree better amongeſt themſelues, before they inſult any more againſt vsus, for our diſagreement. Laſtly, they doe vsus wrong, in ſeeking to diſgrace vsus and our religion, in that ſince Luther beganne to preach, there hauehave riſen vp diuerſe and ſundrie fonde and fooliſh heretiques. For wee read, that immediatly after the Apoſtles tymes, euen within few yeares, Epiphanius by his tyme, could reckon vp eighty, and Auguſtine more ſeuerall errours and hereſies, which in effect did growe togither with the Goſpell, and yet the Goſpell not to be blamed therefore, but Sathan, who where the good ſeedes-man ſowed good ſeede, vſeth to ſowe alſo his tares: Matthew the thirteenth. And yet it ſeemeth by Saint Iohns preuention of this obiection, that ſome, aſwell affected to the Goſpell then belike, as you be now, were ready hereby to diſcredit both the Apoſtles, and their doctrine. But Iohns anſwere is, they went out from vsus, but they were not of vsus: for if they had beene of vsus, they would hauehave continued vvith vsus. But this came to paſſe, that it might appeare, that they were not all of vsus: 1. Iohn. 3. Euen ſo, wee anſwere you concerning thoſe, that you ſay, hauehave any where ſince Luther riſen amongſt vsus, and fallen into hereſies. Yet further, ſo much the more apparent is the wronge that you offer vsus in this behalfe, in that not onelyonly you knowe, we ſhun communion with them, as wel as you: but that alſo it euidently hath appeared to the world, that wee hauehave beene both the firſt and the forwardeſt in detecting of them, and in confuting of them from time to time. Wherfore I conclude, that hitherto you hauehave ſaied nothing of any force, for the iuſtification either of your vocation, Church, or religion.