Answer to John De Albines, Answer to discourse · Chapter 3
The III. Chapter.
THe place that I hauehave quoted of the Apoſtle doth ſhew, how dāgerous a thing it is, to fal into the hands of ſuch Coggers of the ſcriptures, & likewiſe how certaine a thing it is,aSuch interpretation of the doctour, we will moſt willingly follow, and if you ſhould, you would quickelie forſake your popery and ioyne with vsus. to follow the interpretation of the ancient Doctours, ſtanding to that, that euer the Catholicke Church hath taught, & not to turne at eueryevery blaſt. VponUpon this matter one*Lib. con. haer. Vincentius Lyrinēſis, who floriſhed aboue a thouſand yeares agone, he ſaith thus: If anie mā perchāce demaund, ſaying: Since that the rules of the Scripture are certaine &bYea and more then ſufficient ſaieth he, Marke he graunts the rules of the ſcripture to be ſufficient: how is then that true, which your Andradius ſaieth, the greateſt part is left to tradition not writen? ſufficient of thēſelues: And what neede hauehave we thē of the authority of the Church? He anſwereth: For that (ſaieth he) that the ſecrets & miſteries of the holy Scriptures are ſuch, that eueryevery mā doeth not vnderſtand thē, & interprete thē after one ſort, but that of one place this mā & that mā ſhal ſeeme to maintaine their opinions, being cleane cōtrary one to another, ſo that, looke how many mē, ſo many interpretations: For, one way it is interpreted by Neſtorius, another way by Arrius, another way by Sabellius, & ſo forth, according to diuers hereſies that hauehave riſen from time to time. And therefore it is neceſſary for the knowledge of the trueth, among ſo many errours, to draw thecAnd for theſe reaſons we allow of Vincentius rule, vnderſtanding, as he doth, that by the right line and rule of interpreting is ment that ſence which hath the conſent of the Prophets, Apoſtles and Catholique Church, for no other ſence we giuegive of the Scriptures. right line of the Propheticall & Apoſtolical interpretatiō, according to the rule & true ſenſe of the Catholicke Church. This is the learned opinion of this anciēt father Vincē tius Lyrinenſis.
The III. Chapter.
IN the 3 Chapter, you ſay as little to the purpoſe, as in the ſecond. For vnderſtanding by the Church, the true catholique Church indeede, and not your late Synagogue of Rome (falſely by you ſo named, becauſe neither it, nor the faith thereof is vniuerſall, neither in reſpect of time nor perſon) whatſoeuer you hauehave writen therein, we confeſſe to be moſt true, and ſure we are, it maketh more for vsus, then for you. For we neuer denied the miniſtry of the true Church to be needefull (according to Vincētius rule) to finde out the true ſence of the ſcriptures: and certaine we are, that we are farre better able, to iuſtifie our interpretations thereby, then you are yours: and he liuing a 1000. years agoe (as you write) we boldely affirme, that you ſhall neuer bee able to proue, that the Catholicke Church and her doctours and paſtours before or in his time, taught the errours and hereſies now taught by yours, for the which wee account yours Antichriſtian. And yet, as in the former Chapter moſt beggerly you begged this principle, that your doctrine is the ancient Catholicke faith: ſo here in this you begge this alſo, that your Church is the true and vndoubted Catholicke Church. But you muſt vnderſtand, howſoeuer your owne frendes will giuegive you at your firſt aſking both theſe, that yet we will graunt you neither of them both. And therefore writing (as you would ſeeme) purpoſely againſt vsus, you ſhould not thus miſerably alwaies hauehave begged them at our handes, but by ſound and iuſt proofe (at leaſt) hauehave endeuoured to proue, that you had iuſt right thereunto, and then with ſome more honeſtie and credit might you hauehave gone on, in this ſuppoſall, that they are yours. This alſo you muſt vnderſtand, that when it is in queſtion, which is the trueth of Religion, yea euen in the fundamentall points (as indeede it is betwixt you and vsus) it is alwaies alſo in queſtion, which is the Church of Chriſt. For as both parts imagine, they hauehave the trueth, ſo will they perſwade themſelues, that they are the true Church. Your frendes alſo and all others muſt bee aduertiſed, that it is no newe thing for damnable heretiques, to brag much both of the truth of the titles of the Church & of the doctours thereof, leaſt through too much ſimplicity, they think ſtreight, that you hauehave al theſe things on your ſide, becauſe you hauehave them ſo much and ſo often in your mouthes. For (as Cyprian writeth Epiſt. ad Iubaianum de baptizandis haereticis) the Nouations (after the faſhion of apes) challenged vntounto themſelues the name of the Church, and all other they called heretiques. And we reade, that in the time of Arius, Macedonius, and Donatus, theſe heretiques accounted themſelues the onelyonly Chriſtians, and that the true Chriſtians indeede were counted by them Homouſians, Macarians, Caeſarians, and Caecilianiſts. So doeth Tertullian de Preſcrip: aduerſus haereticos, teſtify, that the heretiques did in his time. So did the Donatiſts (ſaieth Auguſt: Contra Epiſt: Parm: lib. 2. cap. 1. and Epiſt. 161.) and he writeth Cōtra Epiſt: Fundamenti cap. 4. that amongſt the Manichees, there was great brags of the trueth. Bernard alſo in his 66. ſermon vponupon the Cāticles, ſpeaking againſt certaine filthy heretiques that condemned mariage, and ſuperſtitiouſly abſteined from meates, yet ſaieth that they gloried, that they alone were the body of Chriſt, bragging alſo, that they were the ſucceſſours of the Apoſtles and Apoſtolicke, & the Church of Chriſt. And indeede wee finde nothing more vſuall with the ancient hereticks, then to boaſt, that they had the Church and Catholique trueth on their ſides. And very vſuall we finde it alſo with them, to ſtand much vponupon fathers, in the defence of themſelues and their hereſies. For it appeareth in the Councell of Calcedon the 1. Action, that Eutiches bragged, that he had reade Cyprian, and Athanaſius: yea that then and there he confidently ſaied for his defence, that he had ſo learned of his ancient predeceſſours, and that he had beene baptized in that faith, had liued, and hoped to die in it. And we reade in the 4. Action of the ſame councell, that Caroſus an Eutichian heretique, ſaied ſtoutly, I beleeue thus, according to the expoſition of the 318. fathers, and ſo was I baptiſed. Dioſcorus alſo, in the 1. Act: of that Councell, cried and ſaied, I hauehave the teſtimonies of the holy fathers, Athanaſius, Gregorie, and Cyrill on my ſide, I go not from them in anie thing, I am caſt out with the fathers, I defend the fathers doctrines: I hauehave their teſtimonies, euen ſet downe in their bookes for me. And (as we reade in Auguſt: contra Creſconium the Donatiſt, 2. booke cap. 23. and in his 4. booke cap. 17.) he cited for himſelfe Cyprian: and it ſeemeth that Maximinus the heretique (againſt whom Auguſt. wrote) vſed to alleadge for his defence, the councell of Ariminum, and therefore Auguſtine ſaieth vntounto him. Neither will I obiect the councell of Nice againſt thee, neither oughteſt thou to obiect that of Ariminum againſt me: 3. booke. 14. chap. What a vaine thing is it (theſe things conſidered) for you and your fellowes then, to carie away the ſimple vnderunder the bare titles of Catholique trueth, Catholique Church, Catholique faith, Catholique Biſhops, ſucceeding one another? When as indeede and trueth, it is as impoſſible for you to proue that you hauehave any iuſt right to anie of theſe, as it was for thoſe heretiques. But howſoeuer you make ſome beleeue, you hauehave all theſe, yet I ſay vntounto you, with Saint Auguſt: De vnitate Eccleſiae, againſt the Epiſtle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Biſhops are not to bee conſented vntounto, if that anie where they be deceiued, in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures. And therefore when all commeth to all, and when otherwiſe you hauehave runne your ſelues out of breath, in concluſion (will you, will you) by theſe Canonicall Scriptures muſt it bee determined, whither you hauehave anie right to anie of theſe or no. For if you appeale from them (as indeede you doe) to the Church and fathers, they will ſende you backe againe for the triall, whither that which they ſpeake, bee true or no, onelie to the Scriptures: as it maie appeare vntounto you, not onelie by this one place, which I hauehave cyted out of Auguſtine alreadie, but alſo by a number ſuch like places, both to bee founde in him elſe where, and alſo in others. For you maie reade in the firſt booke and ſeuenth Chapter of Theodoret, that when Conſtantine ſawe great controuerſies in the Church in the Nicene councell, and perceaued that euerie ſeuerall companie bragged of the trueth, and ſo alſo of the Church, and fathers to bee on their ſide, to ende all thoſe controuerſies, he ſaied, Ex diuinitus inſpiratis oraculis quaeramus ſolutionem eorum quae proponuntur; that is, out of the oracles, that are come by diuine inſpiration (thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures) let vsus ſeeke the determination of thoſe thinges that are propounded: and ſo they did. And as Conſtantine the Emperour was of this minde, ſo it appeareth that Athanaſius was of the ſame. For to Serap: hee ſaieth, Solum exſacris literis condiſcas (meaning, that the holie Ghoſt is God) ſufficiunt enim documenta, quae in illis reperias: Thou maieſt learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures, for the documents or leſſons, which thou maieſt finde in them, are ſufficient. And Origen vponupon the 16. to the Romanes, in his tenth booke (agreeing herein with theſe) ſaieth, that onelyonly by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour, in the examination thereof, is to bee diſcerned. And yet more plainely, the ſame Origen in his firſt Homilie vponupon Ieremie writeth, of neceſsitie wee muſt call for the teſtimonie of the Scriptures: for our ſenſes and declarations without them as witneſſes, hauehave no credit. Well therefore ſaied Auguſtine, de naturâ & gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my conſent without refuſall: And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epiſtle: that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onelyonly to the Canonicall Scriptures, to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred. Where he plainly ſheweth vsus, by his example, how we ſhould reade his writings, or the writings of any other father, namely, beleeuing that which they wrote no further, then we ſee it by ſcripture confirmed, or by probable argument not diſſenting from the trueth. And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. & 112. Epiſtles, to Fortunatus and Paulinus, & in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity. Wherefore with the ſame Auguſtine, I confidently ſay and write, whither of Chriſt, or of his Church, or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life (I will not ſay wee, that are not to bee compared with him that ſaied though wee, but as hee addeth) though an Angell from Heauen ſhall preach any thing, beſides that yee hauehave receaued (marke hee ſaieth not contrarie, but beſides) in the legall and Euangelicall ſcriptures, let him be accurſed; in his third booke againſt Petilian. cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you, denyeth not, but taketh it for graunted, that the ſcriptures of themſelues alone, are ſufficient for all things, yea and more then ſufficient. Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius, by the rule, line and true ſence of the Catholique Church, that there he ſpeaketh of, vnderſtandeth onelyonly ſuch a ſence or line, as agreeth beſt with the ſcriptures themſelues, and the right rules of the interpreting of them, wherof more afterwards. In the meane time, howſoeuer Vincentius his meaning was, Auguſtine an ancienter father, & more famous ſomewhat then he, ſpeaking of the rule of faith, that alwaies in interpreting of the ſcriptures, men muſt hauehave an eie vntounto, and be ruled by, ſaith, that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the ſcripture: de doctrinâ Chriſtia: lib 3. cap. 2. & de trini: lib. 1. cap. 2. &. 4. Yea in the ſame Auguſtine de doct: Chriſt: lib. 2. cap. 6. & diſtrinc: 37. c. Relatum. we may reade, noted out of Clemēt, that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true ſēce of the ſcriptures, which cānot be proued ſo to be out of the ſcriptures thēſelues. And therefore all interpretation of ſcripture, newe or ancient, deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age, muſt and ought according to this rule and line, bee iudged catholique or not.