Conference Between Rainolds and Hart, Chapter 10 – Conclusions 1
The tenth Chapter. 1 Princes are supreme gouernours of their subiects in things spirituall, and temporall: and so is the othe of their supremacie lawfull. 2 The breaking of the conference off, M. Hart refusing to proceede farther in it.
HART.
Nay, first,The first Diuisiō. why doe you take the supremacie from the Pope, and giuegive it to the Prince who is lesse capable of it?
Rainoldes.
The supremacie, which we take from the Pope, M. Hart, we giuegive to no mortall creature, Prince, nor other. But the Pope hauing seazed on part of Christs right, part of Princes, part of Bishops, part of peoples & Churches; as the chough (in Aesope) did trick vp himselfe with the feathers of other birdes: the feather, which the Romish chough had of our Princes, we hauehave taken from him, and geuen it to her Maiestie to whom it belonged; according to the lesson of our heauenly Master, aMat. 22.21.Geue to Caesar the thinges which are Caesars, and to God the things which are Gods.
Hart.
It is not Caesars right to be the supreme gouernour of all his dominions in things spirituall and temporall. But this is the supremacie which you giuegive our soueraine Lady Quéene Elisabeth. Therfore you giuegive the Prince more thē i… the Princes.
Rainoldes.
To hauehave the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions, is to be supreme gouernour of all his dominions in thinges spirituall and temporall. But b1. Pet. 2.13.it is 1foreign.Caesars right 2foreignto hauehave the preeminence ouer all rulers in gouernment of matters touching God and man within his owne dominions. Therefore that is the Princes which we giuegive the Prince.
Hart.
The Prince hath preeminence ouer al rulers within his owne dominions in gouernment of matters touching man, not God. For nether he nor any of the rulers vnderunder him may deale in them both.
Rainoldes.
They may. For cRom. 13.3. …. Pet. 2.14.the ciuil magistrate is ordeined to punish them that doe euill, and praise them that doe well. But the euill to be punished, and the good to be praised, compriseth all duties, not only towardes man, but towards God also. Therefore the ciuill magistrate is ordeined to gouerne in duties touching God and man.
Hart.
The good that we must follow, and euill that wée must flie, compriseth duties to them both. But that which the ciuill magistrate must deale with, is good and euill in thinges of men, not of God; in ciuill cases, not religion.
Rainoldes.
The scripture sayth the contrary. For it sheweth that offenders in cases of religion, dExod. 22.20.idolaters, eLeu. 24.16.blasphemers, fDea…. 13.5. & 18.20.false prophets, & gNumb. 15.35.profaners of holy thinges, are to bée punished. But the punishment of these is committed to him hRom. 13.4.who beareth not the sword in vaine. Then is the ciuill magistrate to punish euill doers in things concerning God. Now, wherein he hath to punish, and reward, therein he hath to gouerne. He hath to gouerne therefore in things concerning God and man.
Hart.
Why sayth the scripture then, that iHeb. ….1.the high Priest, (the Priest, not the Prince) is ordeined for mē in those things that pertaine to God.
Rainoldes.
To do them, M. Hart: as it followeth in the text, that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sinnes. For this is the peculiar dutie of the Priests. Which if the Prince meddle with, as k2. Chron. 26. ver. 16.Ozias did, who would hauehave burnt incense, vponupon the altar of incense, lver. 18.a thing enioyned to Priests only: then transgresseth he the bounds of his office, mver. 19.and prouoketh vengeance of the Lord vponupon him. But to prouide by ciuil punishments, and orders, that Priests do their dutie in things concerning God, nor only Priests, but people too: it is the Princes charge; and so is he ordeined to deale in things of God. For, nIudg. 17. v. 5.when Michah had an idols chappell in his house, with a vestiment, and images: ove…. 6.in those dayes (sayth the scripture) there was no King in Israel, but eueryevery man did that which was good in his own eyes. And agayne, pIudg. 18. ver. 1.In those dayes there was no King in Israel, when qver 17.the men of Dan got that idolatrous stuffe, with an rver. 1… ▪idolatrous Priest, sver. 30.and went a whooring after it. Which being sayd tIudg. 19. ver. 1.in like sort uver. 2.when adulterie was committed, and xver. 25.with adulterie, yver. …6.murder: doth shew, that as the subiects should hauehave bene restrayned from murder, and adulterie, so from idolatrie too by the Princes sword; sith all these sinnes raigned, zIudg. 10.28.not for want of a Priest, but of a King in Israell. And this appéereth farder by the examples of the Kings: of whom a1. King. 15.…4▪ & 22 44. & 2. King. 12.3. & 14.4. & 15.35.some are touched for that they tooke not away the hie places; b2. King. 18.4. & 23. ver. 8.13. & 19.& some are commended for taking them away. Yea, King Ezekias c2. Chron. 29. v. 5.21.27. & 30▪commanding first the Leuites and Priests to doe their dutie, d2. Chron. 30. ver. 1.6 & 12.afterward the people to come and serue the Lord; e2. Chron. 30. ver. 2. & 4.finally, thē both to reforme themselues for maintainance of religion: is said f2. King. …8.6▪to hauehave cleaued to the Lord therein, and kept his commandements which lie commaunded Moses. A manifest proofe, that whereas gDeut. 17.19.the King is willed (by Moses) to keepe al the words of the law to do them: the Lord meant thereby, that he ought to kéepe them, not onelyonly as a priuate man, but as a King, by séeking and prouiding that all his subiects did their duties, both to God and man. Wherefore, sith ye supremacie which hThe Article… agreed vponupon in the conuocation holden at London, a…t. 37.we giuegive our Prince in thinges ecclesiasticall, is to deale therein as Ezekias, not Ozias; not to preach the word, minister the sacraments, celebrate the prayers, or practise discipline of the Church, but to prouide that these thinges be done, as they ought, by them whem God hath called thereto: we giuegive to Caesar no more then is Caesars. The greater is your iAllen in the Apologie of the English Seminaries. Chapt. 1. & 4.Maisters fault, and his kSander. d… visib. Monar. eccles. l. 5. c. 4. Stapleton. princip doctr. lib. 5. cap. 17.cōfederates, who reproue the oth of the Queenes supremacie, as wicked and vngodly. For eueryevery lawfull Prince is the supreme gouernour of his owne subiectes in thinges spirituall and temporal. Wherfore to be sworne to this of her Maiestie, is but to acknowledge her the lawfull Prince. And l1. Elisab. 1.the Parlament might take an oth of English men for Elisabeth our Quéene, against the Pope vsurping part of her right: as well m…. King. …1.…as Iehoiada of the men of Iuda for Ioas their King, against Athalia yt vsurped his State.
Hart.
My nAllen in his Apologie. chapt. 4.Maister layeth open the weakenesse of ye grounds which you pretend for Princes right out of the Scriptures. For Caesar was an Heathen when oMat. 22.21.Christ & his pRom. 13.1. …. Pet. 2.13.Apostles did teach the faithful to obey him. So that, if he were supreme gouernour of his subiects in things spirituall and temporall: then must hée be obeyed as in temporall matters, so in spirituall too.
Rainoldes.
True. And therefore qAct. 25.11▪Paule appealed to him, as knowing that the Iewes ought to hauehave obeyed him, if hée had iudged with the truth.
Hart.
The Iewes rAct. 24.5.had accused Paule of sedition, as well as of heresie. And therefore his case was not spirituall méerely. But if the Heathen Emperour were to be obeyed in spirituall matters: then must the Christians hauehave sacrificed to idols. For so he did commaund them.
Rainoldes.
Why? If the heathen Emperour had commaunded them to beare false witnesse against their neighbour, or to condemne the innocent thereby, s1. King. 21.10.as Iezabel did: must Christians hauehave obeyed him?
Hart.
No: because, in things forbidden by God, that is a generall rule, that tAct. 5.29.we must rather obey God then men.
Rainoldes.
Then as the Heathen Emperour must not be obeyed if he commaunded things vniust, and yet was supreme gouernour (you grant) in temporal matters: so in spiritual matters might he hauehave that soueraintie; yet not to be obeyed, if hée commaunded things vngodly.
Hart.
But Princes are so mightie that if they commaund them, men wil obey them commonly. As whē uDan. 3. ver. 5.the King of Babylon commanded men to worship the image of gold, xver. 12.there were but thrée who disobeyed him.
Rainoldes.
The better were those thrée tried: and through their triall yver. 28.God glorified. Wherefore though Princes cōman… not things godly, as nether honest, alwaies: we must not therfore robbe them of soueraintie therein; but helpe them with our z1. Tim. 2.2.praiers, that they may gouerne vsus in godlinesse & honestie.
Hart.
Yet experiēce sheweth, that, if they hauehave this soueraintie, religion will be changed ofte with change of rulers. As if is the …urpitude of our nation through the whole world, that of foure Princes who hauehave succéeded one an other, the first kept the ancient faith, though not the Papacie: the next abolished both; the third restored both againe; & both againe are now abolished, by her Maiestie: al within the compasse of about thirtie yeares▪
Rainoldes.
So in the realme of Iuda, though not in so …ew yeres, the father, a2 King. 16.4.King Achaz, burnt incense in y• hi… places; the sonne, b18.4.Ezekias, did abolish them; the nephew, c21.3.Manasses, restored them againe; and d23.8.Iosias, his nephew, abolished thē againe. Yet the Prophets were not moued by these changes to denie their soueraintie in matters of religion. And better it is for vsus to hauehave changed so, by meanes of our godly Iosias, and Ezekias, that noble child her Maiesties brother, & her Maiestie: then to hauehave continued vnchanged, as our ancestours; vnderunder the Pope, as eIudg. 18.30.Ionathan. Nor was it such turpitude for the nation of the Iewes to hauehave had religion reformed by two Kings, though in a few yeares it caused sundrie alterations: as for the nation of the Romans to hauehave kept idolatrie without alteration, fLiu…. lib. 1. Dionys. Halicarn. li…. 2.vnderunder high Priests, gSymmach. ep. lib. 10. ep. 5….for a thousand yeares together.
Hart.
Well. Whatsoeuer opinion you hauehave of the Princes supremacie: your own hMagdeburg. in p…fat. Centur. 7▪Centurie-writers cōtrol it in generall; & iIn Amos. c. 7.Caluin, in particular, the grant thereof to King Harrie. For they both reproue the title of head. And it is al one to be head of the Church, & to be chiefe gouernour of causes ecclesiasticall.
Rainoldes.
Caluin reproueth not the title of head as ye Protestants graunted it, but that sense thereof which Popish Prelates gaue, namely 1Episcopus Vint…mensis, sayth Caluin, meaning Ga… diner: whose leuitie and inconstancie (flattering the …ing) in the … of the supremacie the king himselfe reproued: as it is in Cardinall Poole, pro ecclesiast. vn…t. de…fens. lib. 4.Steuen Gardiner: who did vrge it so, as if they had meant thereby, that 2P…stas penes Regem, vt statuat p…o s…o arbitrio quicquid voluerit. Which Caluin openeth farder by these of Gardiners wordes: licere Regi inte…ice…re populo vsum calicis in Caena▪ Quare▪ Potestas enim summa est penes…egem.the king might do thinges in religion according to his owne will, and not …ée thē d…on according to Gods wil. In like sort is the headship of the Church controlled by the Centurie-writers. For they say that Princes ought not to be heads, to 3Non habent po…estatem cudendi formulas religionum.coine formes of religiō, & 4Non gignan… nouos fidei articulos.frame new points of faith, as *1. King. 12.28.Ieroboam did 5Nouos vitulos Ieroboam.his calues. So what they mislike, y• we grant not to Princes. What we grant to Princes, that they mislike not. Nay, kCentur 4. praesat. ad Reginam Elisabetham.the Centurie-writers do giuegive the same supremacie to our Prince that we do: nor only to ours, lCap. 7. through eueryevery Centurie: yea, in that very place which the Papists cite, or rather quote, against vsus, Praefat. Cent. 7.but to al in general. Which mTo ours, in ep. ad Regem Eduardum, & Reginam Elisabetham, prefix. comment. in Esaiam prophetam. To all, in Institut relig. Christ. lib. 4. cap. 20.Caluin also doth. Nor only hée, or they: but nHarmonia confess. fidei sect. 19.the reformed Churches whole with one consent. I might say, euen oAndreas Masius, cōme…t. in Iosuam. praefat. &c. 3. Frāciscus Duarenus de sacr. eccles. minist. acben. l. 1. c. 5.your owne men too. Yea, euen your selfe too, M. Hart. For when, vponupon occasion of spéech that I had with you touching this poynt (before we did enter into conference by writing,) I brought you M. p… reproofe …. Do…an hi… proofe of certa…e Art… cles in religiō, … co…tinue… by Alexander Nowell.Nowels answere to Dorman, wherin he hath confuted pithily and plainly the cauils which your qAl…en in his Apologie. chapt 4.Maister blancheth out of Caluin and rAthanasius, Hosias, Ambrose, Gregorie Nazianzene: answered al by M. Nowell, & in them, the rest.the ancient Fathers against the Quéenes supremacie, requesting you to reade it ouer: you told me (hauing read it) that you had mistaken our doctrin… of that point; and that, if we gaue the Prince no greater soueraintie, then M. Nowell doth, you did agrée with vsus.
Hart.
Indéed I had thought (& so sAbused by such as Allen, and Stapleton, Princip. doct. l. 5. c. 17. & 18.do many take it) that you meant to giuegive as much to ye Prince by ye title of ye supremacie, as we do to the Pope. Where you giuegive no more me thinkes by M. Nowel, thē S. tCont. Crescon. grammat. lib. 3. cap. 15.Austin doth, who saith that Kings do serue God in this, as Kings, if in their own realme they cōmaūnd good things, & forbid euil; not only cōcernīg the ciuil state of mē, but the religion of God also. And thus much I subscribe too.
Rainoldes.
*The secōd Diuision.Wil you procéede then to ye later point, wherein you would proue (you sayd) that the faith which we pro…esse in England is not the Catholike faith.
Hart.
I hauehave proued it alredy in part. For ye Catholike faith is ye which we professe in ye Church of Rome. You professe not ye. As ye points yt you hauehave touched by ye way, of scriptures, of traditiōs, of merits, of sacramēts, of Priesthoode, of the Masse, the real presēce, the worship of Saints, & sūdry others shew. But I wil cōfer no farder herof, vnles I hauehave greter assurāce of my life.
Rainoldes.
Assurance of your life to procéede in cōferēce (by Gods grace) you hauehave. At least, as great assurance as hetherto you hauehave had. But you should rather say, you wil conferre no farder vnlesse you had better assurance of your cause. For that is the catholike faith which the Apostles did preach to al nations. The Apostles preached that which is writen in the holy scriptures. Therefore, that, which is writen, is the catholike faith. But the faith, which we professe, is all writen. The faith which we professe then, is the Catholike faith. And this should appéer… as well in other pointes, as in those alreadie touched, if you would sift them. The Lord grant you grace to consider of it: that whatsoeuer become of your life temporall, you may hauehave assurance of eternall life, through knowledge of his holy truth.
SIX CONCLVSIONS touching THE HOLY SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH.
Proposed, expounded, and defended, in publike disputations at Oxford, by Iohn Rainoldes.
1 The holy scripture teacheth the Church all things necessarie to saluation.
2 The militant Church may erre, both in maners, and in doctrine.
3 The authoritie of the holy scripture is greater, then the authoritie of the Church.
4 The holy Catholike Church, which wee beleeue, is the whole company of Gods elect and chosen.
5 The Church of Rome is not the Catholike Church, nor a sound member of the Catholike Church.
6 The reformed Churches in England, Scotland, Fraunce, Germanie, and other kingdomes and common-weales, hauehave seuered themselues lawfully from the Church of Rome.
Ierem. 51.9.
We would hauehave healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her (ô children of God,) and let vsus goe euerie one into his owne countrey.