Reims Against Rome, Propositions · Proposition 16
XVI. Propoſition. Whether the Church of Rome be the Catholike Church:
Confuted by their owne Bible.
I. IT is ſo farre from making it the Catholike Church, as it no where doth giuegive it the name of a Church, as it doth Corinth, chap. 1. Gal. chap. 1. Epheſus, Reu. 2. 1. Acts 20. 28. 1. Tim. 3. 15. and ſo other Churches. But no where is this title giuen to Rome. Note it well.
II. It telleth vsus, that the Faith of Saints at Rome was renowned in the whole World, Rom. 1. 8. but not that their Church was ſpred into all the World. Neither ſaith it, that the Faith ſo commended, came out from thence into the World; or that it was any other, then that which was then in all the World. ForRom 1. 5 12, their Bible telleth vsus, that not from Rome, but from Ieruſalem, it came both to Rome, and into other places of the World. Ieruſalem was the Mother and Head Church, and not Rome. And of thoſe in Rome it ſaith, Among whom ye are called, Rom. 1. 6. ſo were they not the Vniuerſall Church, but one particular among the reſt, which together made vp the whole Church.
III. Their Bible telleth vsus, that the Church at Ieruſalem was planted by Chriſt, and by his twelue Apoſtles, with whom were the 70. Diſciples: ſuch Teachers as no other Church euer had at once. The Church of Antioch, Corinth, Epheſus, and other moe, were planted by the Apoſtles, as we learne from their owne Bible. But who firſt taught at Rome, it ſhewes vsus not, not Peter, I am ſure.
IIII. Their Bible doth at leaſt equall other Churches with it, if not preferre them before it: 1. In giuing the name of Church to other, and not to it: for there is mention of Saints at Rome, but not of the Church at Rome: The title they had not giuen to them.
2. It plainely telleth vsus, that other Churches were firſt planted by the Apoſtles, but mentioneth not the planting of it by any of them.
3. In highly praiſing of other Churches, as the Corinthians, for being enriched with all vtterance, and all knowledge, for comming behind in no gift, 1. Cor. 1. 5, 7. and for being partakers of the ſufferings of Chriſt, 2. Cor. 1. 7. So the Epheſians, which Church he calleth the Church of the liuing God, the Pillar and ground of truth, 1. Tim. 3. 15. and the beleeuers there to be fellow-Citizens with the Saints, and of the houſhold of God, built vponupon the foundation of the Apoſtles and Prophets, Ieſus Chriſt himſelfe being the chiefe Corner-ſtone, in whom they wer builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit, Eph. 2. 19, 20, 22. If our Romaniſts had any ſuch teſtimony, how would they boaſt? Great commendations are giuen to the Church at Coloſſe, Col. 1. 4, 6. for their ſtedfaſt faith, louelove, and fruit of the Goſpell, and for their order which the Apoſtle ioyed to behold, cha. 2. 5. What ſhal I ſpeak of the praiſes of the1. Theſ. 1. 3, 6. & 2. 13, 14. & 3. 6. &. 4. 10. 2. Theſ. 1. 3, 4. & 2. 13. Theſſalonians for their worke of Faith growing exceedingly, their labour of louelove, their patience of hope, their abounding in charitie, being followers of the Apoſtles, and the Churches of God in Iury, receiuing the Word of God, as the Word of God, in much tribulation, with ioy of the holy Ghoſt? To which prayſes the beleeuers at Rome did not then attaine, though they had their prayſes, and thoſe great too, Rom. 15. 14. but not comparable with thoſe Churches.
Laſtly, in ſhewing how the Apoſtles honoured ſome other Churches by their writings. As Corinth, by two Epiſtles: ſo Epheſus, by one from Saint Paul, by another from Saint Iohn, Reuel. 2. 1. who wrote to that Church, in the firſt place, the heauenly booke of the Reuelation: in like ſort were two written to the Theſſalonians, and but one to Rome.
5. It is cleare by their own Bible, that Peter (whō they claime falſely for their firſt Pope) wrote two Epiſtles, which are called Catholike: but neither of them was written to Rome, as the Catholike Church, neither maketh he any mention of it. And S. Paul writeth to the Saints at Rome, as to a particular company, and not as any Head-Church, before, and aboue other. The Theſſalonians are commended for being followers of the Churches of God in Iudea, but not for following thoſe at Rome; to whom, when Saint Paul wrote, hee ſaith, Rom. 1. 6. that they were called among others that in other Nations were called; but it is not ſaid, aboue other Nations.
6. Their Bible telleth vsus, that S. Paul wrote his Epiſtle to them that were in Rome called Saints, and beloued of God, ſo that they were within that City, or there-about: but the Catholike Church was then diſperſed; for the Goſpell at that time had gone into all the World, and was preached to eueryevery creature vnderunder Heauen, Col. 1. 6, 23. In their Bible is mentionActs 2. made of thirtie Kingdomes and Countries, ten Ilands, and almoſt three ſcore famous Cities out of Iury, in and amongſt the Gentiles, where the Goſpell had been preached, among whom Rome was but one, and had obteined at the moſt, praiſes common with other Churches. Their titles were Saints, Rom. 1. 7. beloued of God, alſo brethren, Rom. 10. 1. and 12. 1. and 15. 14, 30. Their faith, the ſame that was among all Nations, Rom. 1. 5. called the common Faith, verſ. 12. and therefore ſpoken of throughout the whole World, verſ. 8. Their obedience was publiſhed to eueryevery place, Rom. 16. 19. Not for that their Faith and obedience did ſurpaſſe others: for the words are deliuered barely, your faith, your obedience: not with prayſes, as the Faith and obedience of the Coloſſians, and Theſſalonians, accompanied with louelove and aboundant charity, with patience, and ioy of the holy Ghoſt, in great afflictions, and ſo forth: but for that Rome was the ſeaſe of the Empire, and the publiſhing of their faith and obedience, might bee a meanes to draw on others which dwelt in other places.
Contraried by Antiquitie.
We may reade, that the chiefe of the Church of Rome, was but at firſt a Biſhop, and his Church but a Droceſan Church. Then hee became an Archbiſhop, and ſo his Church but a Prouinciall Church. After he got to be a Patriarch, and ſo his Church but Patriarchall, as ſome other were, then equall with him; as that of Antioch, Alexandria, Ieruſalem, and Conſtantinople. All this time he was no Vniuerſall Biſhop (till bloody Phocas gaue him that title:) and ſo his Church not Vniuerſall, till ſhe alſo became the great whore, and ſo might well be common; the kings of the earth committing fornication with her, as was foretold, Reuel. 17.
It is ſaid that Athanaſius, as Liberius confeſſeth, was ſeparatedEpiſt. ad Ʋrſac, & Valent. in Baron. Annal. to 3. Ann. 357. n…. 44. from the communion of the Church of Rome. But may we iudge ſo holy a man, and ſo valiant a Champion for the truth, to be therefore ſeparated from the Catholicke Church? Polycrates, and the Eaſterne Churches, did not condiſcend to the Church of Rome in the keeping of Eaſter; did they therefore diſſent from the Catholicke Church? who was he in thoſe dayes, that had ſo much as a dreame thereof?
S. Ierome in Catal. Fortunat. reproueth the cuſtome of the Church of Rome, and Epiſt. ad Euagr. he preferreth the cuſtome of the Catholicke Church: he held not Rome then the Catholicke Church, but diſtinguiſheth them aſunder, one from another. The title of Catholicke was long before it came to be added to the Church; and when it was vſed, many Churches were ſo called. The Romane Church then was not the Catholicke Church.
Gaineſayd by ſome of their owne.
Aeneas Syluius, who was Pope, writeth; That before theEpiſt. 30, 1. Councell of Nice, ſmall reſpect was had to the Church of Rome. Now, it cannot be imagined, that all the time before, the learned Fathers, and holy Martyrs ſhould be ſaid to hauehave had ſmall reſpect to the Catholicke Church, the mother of eueryevery particular Church, becauſe they had ſmall reſpect to the Church of Rome. If Aeneas Syluius ſaith true, then was not Rome held the Catholike Church, of thoſe, who ſo ſmally reſpected her.
Pighius, lib. 6. ca. 3. de Eccl. Hierarch. ſaith, Who did euer yet by the Church of Rome vnderſtand the Vniuerſall Church? He then at that time had not learned this point, to hold the Church of Rome for the Catholicke Church.
Franciſc. Picus, Theorem. 13. ſaith, The Church of Rome is a particular Church.
The obiected Scriptures anſwered.
Pſal. 2. 8. Aske of me, and I will giuegive thee the heathen for thine inheritance, &c.
Luk. 1 33 He ſhall reigne ouer the houſe of Iacob for euer; and of his kingdome there ſhall be no end.
Anſw. Who is read in Scripture, but knoweth theſe to be ſpoken of Chriſts Kingdome, and not of the Popes iuriſdiction? Where is here Pope, or Rome expreſſed? But the Gagger proueth hereby the Church of Chriſt Catholicke: which we acknowledge. But ſaith he, None of theſe promiſes hauehave beene ſo much verified, as they hauehave beene in the Church of Rome: and therefore is ſhe onelyonly the Catholicke Church. In that he ſaith, Not ſo much verified, as of Rome; he grants it to hauehave beene verified of other Churches, though not ſo much: he cannot therefore from a higher degree conclude, that ſhe is onelyonly the Church, whereof the promiſes are made. The words are ſpoken of Chriſts Kingdom in plain termes expreſſed. And is his Kingdome now become the Romiſh Iuriſdiction onelyonly? His Kingdome, after he aſſumed our nature, began before the Church of Rome had a being. And can any thinke that Dauid in the Pſalme, or the Angell ſpeaking the words to his Mother, in Luke, did dreame of a Pope-holy Father, and his Churches iuriſdiction? Chriſts Kingdome was not, nor is not of this world, Ioh. 18. 36. but the Popes is: therefore he vndertakes to be chiefe Iudge, to diuide inheritances, and to diſpoſe of kingdomes, which Chriſt refuſed to intermeddle in, Luk. 12. 14. Moreouer his Kingdome ſhould extend to the vttermoſt parts of the earth; but ſo did neuer Romes Iuriſdiction. Many Chriſtian Churches neuer ſubiected themſelues to her: many farre remote, know her not, nor her Pope; whether a man, or a woman, Pope Ioane.
Laſtly, The Romiſh Church cannot be Chriſts Kingdome, for that the Pope is Antichriſt, whoſe character ſet forth in the Scripture, he ſeemeth ſo liuely to expreſſe, that his beſt abetters cannot free him of that title. For my part I hauehave laid the dogge ſo neere his doore, that I hope hee and his ParaſitesSee alſo the Anſwer of B. Downame, vntounto Leon. Leſſius de Antichriſto. cannot beat him away. See more in my poore labours vponupon the Reuelation.
Coloſſ. 1. 5, 6. Yee heard before in the word of the truth of the Goſpell, which is come vntounto you, as it is in all the world, and bringeth forth fruit, &c.
But ſaith the Gagger, No faith or Goſpell hath, or is ſo dilated in all the world, nor hath fructified, as the faith of the Romane Church hath done.
Anſw. 1. Where is in the Text, Rome, or the Romiſh Church?
Secondly, by ſaying, no faith or Goſpell, hath or is ſo dilated, ſpeaking in the time paſt, and preſent; hee playeth the deceitfull Merchant, by making two different things one. 1. For by the time paſt and moſt ancient, muſt bee meant the faith and Goſpell in the Church, planted in other places as well as at Rome in the Apoſtles dayes, of which this place of the Coloſſians ſpeaketh: and by the time preſent, is vnderſtood the faith and profeſſion of the now Romiſh Church, greatly differing from that which the Apoſtle commended then, as before is manifeſted out of the Epiſtle to the Romanes.
Thirdly, in that he ſaith, no faith (meaning this preſent faith, for which hee onelyonly ſtriueth) hath not been, nor is ſo dilated in all the world, fructified and growne, is not true. For firſt, the true faith, beginning at Ieruſalem, went farther being preached to eueryevery creature vnderunder Heauen, Col. 1. 6, 23. Secondly, this our preſent faith (the very ſame with that Ancient faith, as ISee my Booke, Looke beyond Luther. hauehave proued) is dilated, fructified, and growne more then theirs. It is in both the Eaſt and Weſt Indies; it is in more Kingdomes in Europe, then the Pope hath full iuriſdiction in, as in England, Scotland, with all the adiacent Ilands belonging to both Kingdomes, which bee many, in Ireland, in Denmarke, Norway, Sweden, Poland, Lapland, and in other Countreys vnderunder thoſe Kings; in Pomeraine, in the Low. Countreys, in Dukedomes, Princedomes, and in other places in Germany. Beſides that, it is in France, and ſome other places of the Popes Iuriſdiction. So that for ſpaciouſneſſe, wee be little behinde Rome. Hereto are to bee added the Ruſſian, Greeke, and Abyſſine Churches, as large as the European. In thoſe the Papacie is either vtterly vnknowne, or abhorred as vehemently as by vsus. Thirdly, the faith and vnbeliefe of the Mahumetane Religion, is beyond the Romiſh preſent faith. Therefore as the Text helpeth him not, ſo his boaſting is vaine, and falſe.
Rom. 1. 8. I thanke my God through Ieſus Chriſt for you all, that your faith is ſpoken of throughout the whole world.
The Gagger hauing cited this place, ſaith, that Saint Paul in expreſſe termes, calleth the faith of the whole world, or Catholike faith, The faith of the Romanes, that is to ſay, of the Romane Church. Therefore it is onelyonly the Catholike Church.
Anſw. 1. Note here, that hee concludeth the Catholikeneſſe, from the faith of the Church: where therefore that is, which then was commended, muſt needs bee the Catholike Church, holding the Catholike faith as we doe.
Secondly, but what is this to the Romiſh Church now? For their preſent faith is not that which Paul commended then. This ſhould they proue. Is this good reaſoning; Such a mans word was of ſingular credit formerly, with eueryevery man, Ergo, it is ſo ſtill when hee is growne Bankerupt? Ieruſalem was the ioy of the whole earth, ergo it is ſo ſtill? Let this Gagger proue their faith now the ſame with that then, elſe this place will doe them no good, but rather vpbraideth their Apoſtaſie.
3. In this application of the words, hee erreth groſly, or rather, if it be not his error through ignorance, then it is wicked deceite, and ſo worſe, in calling it the faith of the Church of Rome, as if originally it had flowed from thence, and gone out thence into the world; when Saint Paul mentioneth not any going forth of this Faith from thence, but that it was ſpoken of: which is to be vnderſtood of their receiuing of it, as it was receiued of other Nations, as is euident in Rom. 1. 5, 6. where Paul ſpeakes of the Faith among all nations, among whom, ſaith he, they were called. So as thoſe at Rome were partakers with others of the common faith preached in the world; and not otherwiſe beholden to Rome for their faith, as this Gagger would inſinuate to his credulous Schollers.
This text therefore makes Rome no more the Catholicke Church, then Corinth, Philippi, Teſſalonica, &c. which had receiued the ſame faith, though their receiuing of it was not perhaps ſo much ſpoken of, for the reaſons afore alleadged.