Reims Against Rome, Propositions · Proposition 15
XV. Propoſition. That Councels may not erre, being confirmed by the Pope:
Confuted by their owne Bible.
The Councell at Ieruſalem, gathered vnderunder the high Prieſt, againſt Chriſt, Mat. 26. againſt the Apoſtles, Act. 4. 5, 6. againſt Steuen, Act. 6. 12. and 7. 1. againſt Paul, Act. 22. 30. erred. The Aſſembly gathered vnderunder Aaron, who conſented to them, and made the golden Calfe, erred, Exod. 32. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. The great congregation, gathered vnderunder Dauid, and the high Prieſt then, erred, in not ſeeking the Lord after a right manner, 1. Chro. 13. in putting the Arke in a new Cart, verſ. 7. and Chap. 15. 13, 14, 15. The Aſſembly of the Prieſts, Prophets, and people gathered againſt Ieremie, erred, Ier. 26. 8, 9, 11. And yet this Church had large promiſes, as before is declared, and the high Prieſts better aſſurances then the Pope: For the high Prieſt was firſt nominated by God himſelf, after confirmed by a miracle, Num. 17. 8. he had vponupon his breſt the Vrim and Thummim, and warrant in expreſſe tearmes to hold him for the Lords high Prieſt. No ſuch aſſurances hath the Pope. And therefore if the Councels thus erred vnderunder the high Prieſts, ſo may they vnderunder the Pope.
Contraried by Antiquitie.
1. Its cleare that generall Councels hauehave erred, as that of Arimine of 600. Biſhops in defence of Arius; yea, Bellarmine Lib. 1. de Concil. cap. 6. 7.nameth generall Councels reiected, as the generall Councell at Antioch, Anno 345. the generall Councell at Millaine of aboue 300. Biſhops, Anno 354. the ſecond Epheſine, Anno, 449. and many other.
2. Councels hauehave contradicted one another; the firſt Nicene condemned worſhipping of Images; and the ſecond Nicene allowed it: Chalcedon condemned Eutyches; the Epheſin confirmed his hereſie. In contradictions muſt needs be error.
3. S. Augustine, lib. 2. de bapt. Contra Donat. cap. 3. ſaith, that former generall Councels may be corrected by the later, when that is knowne, which before was hid. He therefore beleeued that Councels might erre.
4. Euen Councels confirmed by the Pope, may erre, and hauehave erred. The Councell of Neocaeſaria confirmed by Pope Leo 4. condemned ſecond marriage, contrary to 1. Cor. 7. The ſecond Nicene approueth worſhipping of Images, contrary to Exod. 10. If any deſire more inſtances, let them reade our learned Whitacres de Concilijs.
5. Councels approued by Popes, hauehave contradicted one another. The Councels of Conſtance and Baſil determined that the Councell was aboue the Pope, & that the Pope might erre. Pope Martin the firſt, choſen by the Councell of Conſtance, was of the ſame iudgement: but the Councels of Ferraria and Florence determined the contrary, that the Pope was aboue the Councell; and Eugenius the 4. which gathered the Councels, was of the ſame iudgement with them. And therefore the one ſide muſt needs erre; and ſo Councels approued by Popes may erre. And what doubt can be made of this, when this their virtual Church is proued before, not onelyonly to be ſubiect to error, but alſo to hauehave erred? And can his approuing of Councels preſerue them from error, who cannot preſerue himſelfe from it?
Gaineſaid by ſome of themſelues.
The Councell of Florence and Ferraria held that a Councell might erre; and ſo thought Pope Eugenius the fourth.
Their learned men hauehave held that Councels may erre. Generall Councels may erre, ſaith Waldenſis! Cuſanus alſo Concord. In doctrina ſid. lib. 2. cap. 19. Loc. Theol. lib. 5. cap. 5. Dialog. part. 1. lib. 6. cap. 25. 26.Catho. lib. 2. cap. 3. yea, (ſaith Canus) and preſcribe ſome lawes to the whole Church, that are not right, profitable, and iuſt. Occham holdeth that they may erre, though the Pope confirme them. For as is afore proued, the Pope and Councels hauehave erred. Pighius ſaith of the Councell of Conſtance, that it decreedIn Hierarch. againſt the order of nature, againſt manifeſt Scripture, againſt the Authoritie of all Antiquitie, and againſt the Catholicke faith of their Church.
Bellarmine ſaith, that the great Councel of Chalcedon erred inIn Praef. de P. Rom. equalizing the Biſhop of Conſtantinople to the Biſhop of Rome.
Our Aduerſaries take libertie to themſelues to allow, or diſallow Councels, in what, or as farre as they pleaſe; as Councels make any way for them, ſo farre they approue them; as they make in any thing againſt them, ſo farre they reiect them: For this reade Biſhop Morton his Catho. Apologie, par. 2. lib. 4. ca. 3. p. 334, 335. alſo D. White his laſt Booke pag. 153.
Scriptures obiected anſwered.
Mat. 18. 20. Where two or three are gathered together in my Name, there am I in the midſt of them.
Anſw. I. Here is not meant either a Nationall, or Prouinciall, or Dioceſan Synod; much leſſe a generall Councell: but Church-officers, or Gouernours in a particular Congregation, to iudge of priuate offences, as is cleare from the text verſes 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.
II. Will they ſay, that the number of two or three aſſembled, is of an vnerring ſpirit? Is this ſuch a Councell, as on which men may reſt aſſured that the iudgement thereof is infallible? Neuer any yet durſt affirme ſo much. And yet this text ſpeakes but of two or three gathered together.
III. Here is not a word of not erring, nor of infallibilitie in doctrine, but of Chriſt his preſence with them. But from this it followes not, that they cannot erre. For the Apoſtle ſaith, We 1. Cor. 13. 9, 10.know in part. But with thoſe which the Apoſtle comprehendeth vnderunder the word, Wee, was Chriſt preſent. And if they knew but in part (perfection of knowledge not being to be attained vntounto here) as the Apoſtle there teacheth; ſeeing imperfect knowledge may erre, it is euident that they might erre, though Chriſt be preſent with them: for he is with his Saints, but he doth not perfectly ſanctifie them; his Spouſe hath imperfections in this life, neither doth hee perfectly illuminate them, but they hauehave their miſtakes. Chriſt was with his before his death, yet had they errors: and before his Aſcenſion; yet he found them ignorant of his ſpirituall Kingdome, Luk. 24. Act. 1. And after his Aſcenſion, and comming of the holy Ghoſt, euen Peter was miſtaken, Act. 10. and other of the Church, Act. 11. as before is proued.
IV. What is this text to proue Popiſh Councels not to erre? For this Scripture ſpeakes of ſuch as are gathered in Chriſts name, whereas thoſe Councels are gathered in the Popes name. Chriſt promiſeth to bee with thoſe that are gathered in his name: but will it neceſſarily follow, that hee will therefore bee with thoſe that are gathered in the Popes name? This ſtands in neede of proofe, eſpecially ſeeing the Pope is proued to be Antichriſt, with whom, we may be ſure, Chriſt will keepe no company.
Ioh. 6. 13. The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth.
Anſw. I. This is a promiſe vntounto the Apoſtles, whoſe prerogatiue in their Miniſtery was not to erre, becauſe they were the chiefe builders and planters of Chriſtian Religion. All other Miniſters are but watere….
II. It is one thing for a Guide to leade aright, & another for thoſe that ſhould follow, to follow aright. It therefore will not be neceſſarily concluded, that becauſe a perfect Guide leadeth the way, ſuch as come after, cannot, or doe not goe out of the way. For they may not ſtrictly follow the Guide, but now and then may ſlip out of the way, through want of eie-ſight, or dimneſſe of ſight, or through careleſneſſe, looking ſome other way, not minding the Guide.
3. How can our Aduerſaries proue, that this promiſe is made to their Popiſh Councels, which are ruled and *See the Hiſtory of the Councell of Trent: and Brocard on Reuel 17. who was at that Councell.guided by their Popes, and not by Gods Spirit?
Acts 15, 25 28. This Councell erred not.
Anſ. 1. This was a Councell gathered of all the 12. Apoſtles, of the Elders at Ieruſalem, and of the whole Church. 2. This had the guiding of the holy Ghoſt, as the text witneſſeth. 3. This laid the Scriptures for their ground, verſ. 15. and the manifeſt euidence of the worke of the holy Ghoſt, verſ. 8 which they tooke for direction in their decrees. 4. Here was free libertie of diſputation, without interruption, one attentiuely hearing another, without by-reſpect, that the truth might take place. What is this to Popiſh Councels? Are there any Apoſtles? Admit they freely the whole Church? Are they guided by the holy Ghoſt, and by the verity of holy Scriptures? Is libertie there granted to eueryevery one to ſpeake freely? If they cannot proue theſe, this text ſerues not their turne.
Other Scriptures are obiected, as Mat. 16. 18. Luk. 10. 16. 1. Tim. 3. 15. All which are fully anſwered before. As for the place in Heb. 13. 17. it is to be vnderſtood not ſimply, but that Teachers are to be obeyed, as farre-forth as they doe teach the truth, and command what God preſcribeth.