Defense of the Churches and Ministry of England, Reason 8
Maiſter IOHNSONS VIII. Reaſon againſt the former Aſſumption: with Maiſter IACOBS Replies to the ſame. REASON VIII.
IF the Apoſtle accoumpted them denyers of the faith and worſe then infidels (and conſequently no true Chriſtians) who (though they held other truthes of the Gospell yet) prouide not for their houſehold: Then what will he accoumpt of them, who (though they profeſſe ſome truthes of the Goſpell, yet) are not true worſhippers of God, but execute or ſubmit vntounto a falſe ministerie, worſhip, and gouernment eccleſiasticall: Which to be th' eſtate of the Miniſterie and people of theſe aſſemblies, appeareth as aforeſaid.
But the firſt is true 1, Tim. 5.8. Therefore, &c.
H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 8. Reaſon.
THis your Eight Reaſon is thus much: viz. Like as it is for a profeſſor, not to prouide for his houſhold ſo is it to hold the Hierarchy, &c. But that is to deny the faith, and to bee worſe then an infidel. Ergo ſo are we in England.
Thoſe very anſwers to the laſt Reaſon, doe fully and flatly ſatisfie this alſo: Either againſt the Aſſumption, (namely that it is not meant ſimply of denying the faith, nor *I meane Fundamentally, as in the laſt Reaſon before I hauehave ſhewed.wholy, but in this poinct only: Or els the propoſitiō, as being meant of ſuch, as neglect their families againſt the light of their conſciences, and the manifeſt inſtinct of nature.
F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 8. Reaſon.
FOr anſwere of our ſaid Eight Reaſon, he referreth vsus to thoſe anſwers of his, to the laſt Reaſon, which he ſaith doth fully and flatly' ſatisfie this alſo, for the propoſition and Aſſumption. But this which he ſaith, we hauehave in the defence of that Reaſon, declared to be altogeather vntrue: Therefore yet we hauehave receiued no anſwere, either to that Reaſon, or this. That thus it ſtandeth we referre the Reader for it vntounto that which is ſaid in defence of that Reaſon aforeſaid: wiſhing the Reader moreouer to obſerue, both there and here in his anſwer to the Reaſon following, that the power of the truth ſo preuaileth against them, as they cannot but graunt, that they departe from and deny the faith, in their miniſterie, worſhip and gouernement eccleſiaſticall, as appeareth in their Canons, booke of Common prayer, Articles, Iniunctions, perſecutions, &c. All which beeing mentioned vntounto them as proofes thereof, in theſe ſeuerall reaſons: when now they ſhould defend theſe particulers, if they would maintaine their ſtanding, behold they are as mute as a fiſh therein: and not that onelyonly, but in their aunſwer to the next Reaſon following, graunt vntounto vsus, that in theſe things we may and ought to ſeparate from them. Which is directly to yeeld vsus the cauſe: Thus ſoundly they anſwer vsus, and diſpute for themſelues.
H. JACOB his 2. Reply to the 8. Reaſon.
TO this your Eight Reaſon and defence thereof, I aunſwer as before: If you take the Apoſtle to meane, ſuch neglecters of their houſhold as deny the faith, not Fundamentally nor againſt the inſtinct of nature, but only againſt conuenient Chriſtian prouidence, and no otherwiſe: Then I deny your Aſſumption. If the Apoſtle meane of ſuch, as neglect their families againſt the light of confcience, & natures inſtinct, then I deny the Propoſition. This I ſay, becauſe the Apoſtle may very well meane both theſe, but in a diuerſe meaſure and proportion of ſinne: but then this concerneth not vsus, Euen ſo as I hauehave ſaid to your former Reaſon. Note alſo, if this were a true Reaſon, it maketh Maiſter Cranmer, &c. denyers of the faith, and no true Chriſtians alſo. For maintenance where of, you hauehave here not one poore word at all.
Touching that you ſay we cannot deny, but graunt, that wee departe from and deny the faith in our Miniſterie. I hauehave told you how, in my anſwer to your 7. Reaſon, Alſo ſee my Replies to your 2. Exception.