Defense of the Churches and Ministry of England, Reason 7
Maiſter IOHNSONS VII. Reaſon againſt the former Aſſumption: with Maiſter IACOBS Replies to the ſame. REASON VII.
IF the Spirit of God accompt them to bee departers from the faith (and conſequently no true Christians) which though they hold other truthes of the Goſpell, yet forbid to marry, & commaund to abſtaine ſrom meates, which God hath created to bee receiued with thankeſgiuing: Then what doeth the Lord accompt of them which forbid the true Ministerie and worſhip of God, and commaund a falſe: and of them alſo which partake therein? Which to be the eſtate of the Prelates, and other Ministers and people of theſe aſſemblies, appeareth, not only by their practize and perſecution, but alſo by the booke of Articles heere alleadged, as may be ſeene in the 35. and 36. Articles, compared with their booke of Cannons, ſet forth, Anno 1571. and with the Articles lately ſet forth by the*Richard Eletcher. Prelate of London, that now is, and inquired of in his viſitation Anno 1595. As alſo by other their Articles, Cannons, Aduerticements, Iniunctions, &c. which were longe heere to rehearſe.
But the former is true, 1. Tim. 4.1, 2, 3. Therefore, &c.
H. IACOB his 1. Reply to the 7. Reaſon.
THis your Seauenth Reaſon is: They are departed from the faith, that forbid to marry, & commaund to abſtaine from lawfull meates. Alſo this is worſe, then that: viz. to forbid the true Ministerie and to commaunde a falſe: which wee in England doe. Ergo wee are departers from the faith.
I denie this Antecedent, that is your Aſſumption, with a diſtinction. The Papiſtes *See Rhemi-Teſta. in Mat. 15.18.forbidding of Mariage and of meates, if they had done no worſe, doeth not make them departers from the faith: that is, not“Or not fundamētally, not ſimply, which words I think fitter to bee here, vſed, as in my next Reply is further declared. totally. No more could their Hyerarchie and ceremonies ſimply: Neither doe theſe thinges make vsus (the Proteſtants) to be ſuch. The Papiſtes fall from Chriſt “That is fundamentally, & ſimply: ſee in the 2. Anſwer following.wholy in other poincts, (namely
1. The Papall ſupreamacy.
2. The ſacrifice of the Maſſe.
3. Iuſtification by workes:
Which bleſſed bee God wee are farre from. Therfore the Apoſtle in ſaying, They departed from the faith, meaneth, in *Viz. in abſtayning from Mariage and meates.theſe poincts they erred or departed from the faith, but not abſolutlie & wholie. 2. Further more touching your Propoſition, if you vnderſtand Paul, of Martion the Haeretike, and Tatianus, who did abſolutly condemne Marriage and certen meates, they euen therein might wholie fall from the faith, I meane ſomewhat like to Balaam, Iudas, and thoſe Apoſtate Iſraelites lately ſpoken of, Pag. 49. 57.namely for hauing their cōſciences conuicted, and ſeared with a whot iron. And thus are they in no compariſon with vsus of England, nor with the Papiſtes neither, if they had erred in nothing elſe.
F. IOHNSON his Defence of his 7. Reaſon.
HEre the aduerſarie being not able with any colour to denie the conſequēt, of our Reasō neither to iustifie their preſent Miniſterie, worſhip Cannons, Articles, Iniunctions, &c. (which yet he must doe, & ſtill we call for it, if he will iustifie their preſent estate): yet being desperate ſure, for els he would neuer hauehave done it, he feareth not to gaineſay the Aſſumption, that is, the very wordes and testimonie of the ſcripture it ſelfe, 1. Tim. 4.1, 2, 3. The Apostle ſayth, that they which forbidde Mariage & Meates, are departers from the faith, This man ſayth no. Nowe, whether of theſe ſhall we beleeue? But what colour hath this man for his deniall? Forſooth this: That they which doe ſo, doe not departe from the faith totally, and that the Apoſtles meaning is, that in theſe poincts they departe from the faith, but not abſolutely and wholy. So by this mans conceite, none may be accounted departers from the faith, that depart only in ſome poinctes, but they which doe it totally from all. And thus then may no heretikes or Antichristes that euer hauehave bene, or ſhalbe in the worlde, be iudged departers frō the faith, becauſe they departe from it but in ſome poinctes, and not abſolutely from all. Thus in one word hath he iustified at once the Arians, Nestorians, Sabellians, Papistes, Familistes, Anabaptistes, and whom not? becauſe they departe but in ſome, not wholy from all poinctes of faith. Js it not great pitie that Antichrist hath ſo long wanted this ſtour Champion, that can thus in one worde, iustifie his forbidding of meates and mariage, yea and his most detestable Hyerarchie, and ſuperstitions? Nowe by this mans learning, all the Martirs & writers heretofore, that by euidence of this ſcripture cōuicted the Synagogues of Antichrist to hauehave departed from the faith, and therefore ſeparated from them: were vtterly deceyued. Nay and the Apostles them ſelues were wholy mistaken, when ſpeaking of Antichristes church and Religion, they call it a*2. Theſ. 2.7. misterie of iniquitie,“1. Tim. 4.2. ſpeaking lies through hypocriſie, “2. Pet. 2.1.priuely bringing in damnable hereſies, and hauing a*Tim. 3.4. ſhewe of godlines, but denying the power thereof, And Johns eyes alſo it ſeemeth were not matches, when he ſaith,†Reue. 17.5. he ſawe in the whores forehead, (that is in Antichristes church and Religion) a name written, A myſterie, great Babylon, the mother of whoredomes, and abhominations of the earth. For we would knowe of this deepe Clerke, howe Antichristes church and religion ſhould iustlie be accounted a mysterie of iniquitie, and truely be ſaide, to ſpeake Lies in hypocriſie, alſo priuely to bring in Damnable hereſies, and to hauehave a Shew of godlines: if they did abſolutely & wholy departe from the faith, and not onelyonly from ſome pointes thereof? But ouer and aboue all, it ſeemeth by this reaſon, that not onelyonly the Apostles were mistaken, in giuing vsus ſure markes howe to knowe falſe teachers and falſe religions, 1 Tim. 1.2, 3. 2 Pet. 2.1. 2 Theſ. 2.7. 2 Tim. 3.4. Reuel. 17.5. But alſo Christ him ſelfe, when he ſaide,“Mat. 7.15. Beware of falſe Prophetes, which come to you in ſheepes clothing, but inwardlie are rauening wolues. And againe*Mat. 2.23.24. Jf any ſhall ſay vntounto you, Loe, here is Christ, or there, beleue it not: For there ſhall ariſe falſe christes and falſe prophets, and ſhall ſhew great ſignes and wonders, ſo that (if it were poſſible) they ſhould deceyue the very elect. Nowe if they ſhould totally departe from the faith, what ſheepes clothing, J pray you, ſhould they hauehave to come in? Or howe ſhould either them ſelues be ſaid to come in the name of Christ, affirming their Religion to be Christes, and ſhewing ſignes and wonders to drawe men therevnto: Or the elect to be in ſuch vnspeakeable daunger to be deceyued by them? This might ſuffice to ſhewe the falſehood and impietie of his anſwere: But we will note a fewe things moe therein. It being graunted him, that the popiſh forbidding of mariage and meates, if they were not worſe, doeth not make them departers from the faith totally: yet let him tell vsus, if holding neuer ſo manie truthes beſides,“See in Bales Votaries, Acts and monumēts &c. what abominable filthines the forbidding of mariage, and what ſuperſtitiō the forbidding of meates, hath wrought in the kingdome of Antichriſt. yet forbidding theſe, they could by the word of God truely be ſaide in that estate*What man fearing God durſt once opē his mouth for ſuch Diuelilh doctrines and eſtate. to holde the faith of Christ, and to be true Christians. If they could not (as the Apostle "teſtifieth) then is this anſwere in this respect alſo nothing to the purpoſe, but against him ſelfe, both for the popiſh forbidding of meates and marriages, and for the Engliſh Hyerarchie, and other abominations amongst them receyued from the Papistes, which vnderunder colour of this anſwere heere he would defend. Againe, where he ſaith, That the Papiſtes fall frō Chriſt in other poinctes beſides the aforeſaid, Namely, 1 The Papall ſupremacie. 2. The ſacrifice of the Maſſe. 3. Iuſtification by workes: which Englande nowe is farre from. Let him tell vsus: First, whether in this ſence the Papiſtes can for theſe be ſaid to departe from the faith totally? If they can not, then what weight is there in this for defence of their estate, that the Papiſtes could not alſo alleadge for them ſelues, to witt, that in theſe poinctes they departe from the faith, but not abſolutely and wholy. Secondly, let him tell vsus, whether there are not other poinctes but theſe three in the papiſtes religion, which make them in their eſtate to be departers frō the faith, and conſequentlie falſe chriſtians and falſe Churches? If there be (as he can not denie it) then of what weight is his anſwer to defende the preſent conſtitution of theſe people and aſſemblies (for whom he pleadeth) ſeeing there are diuers other thinges beſides theſe, that doe and may cauſe, that they may not be deemed true Chriſtiās or true Churches in that eſtate.
ManyaSeruetus, Sabellius, Arius, the Anabaptiſtes, &c. heretikes heretofore hauehave, and at this day doe reiect theſe three aforeſaid, are they therfore in their eſtate to be accounted true Chriſtians or true Churches? So then, his manner of reaſoning heere for their defence, is, as if the Adulterers, to iuſtifie their courſe of life, ſhould alleadge thus: We are noe 1. Blaſpemers, 2. no Perſecutors, 3. No Murtherers, as ſuch and ſuch are: therefore we departe not from the way of life, but our eſtate and courſe of life is good, and ſuch as may be continued in. But the ſcripture teacheth otherwiſe, ſayinge:bIam. 2.10.11. Whoſoeuer ſhall keepe the whole Lawe, and yet fayleth in one poincte, is guiltie of all. For he that ſayed, Thou ſhalt not commit adulterie, ſaied alſo, Thou ſhalt not kill. Nowe, though thou doeſt no adultery, yet if thou killeſt, thou art a tranſgreſſour of the Lawe: and contrariwiſe. So that what ſoeuer ſinnes the Adulterer be farre from, yet (ascPro. 6.32. Salomon ſaith) Hee that committeth adulterie with a woman, fayleth in heart, and deſtroyeth his owne ſoule. The ſame is the caſe of all ſpirituall Adulterers likewiſe: who (what ſo euer ſinnes they be farre from) yet in the worſhip of God, runne adNum. 15.39. whoring after their owne inuentions,ePro. 5.20. embracing the boſomes of ſtrange women, &fReuel. 17.4. drinking of their cup of fornications. Thirdly, let him ſhewe vsus ſufficient warrant frō the ſcriptures, why (ſetting theſe three aſide) the other popiſh Hyerarchie and abominations receyued amongst them, can not bee iudged to make them in ſuch estate, departers from the faith, and therfore falſe Christians and falſe Churches, whatſoeuer truthes they ſhould hold beſide. If he cannot (as who ſeeth not, that it can not be donne?) then by this alſo it appeareth, that his anſwer… here is of no force for defence of their eſtate, but againſt it, as we hauehave declared before.
gNum. 16.12. &c.Corah, Dathan, Abyram, and their partakers, were farre from the Abominations of the Heathen, they helde alſo al the poinctes of faith, that Moſes and Aaron held, differing onelyonly from them, and departing only from the faith, in a matter concerning the Prieſthood, whereof alſo theyhverſe the. 3. ſhewed their reaſons why they were ſo perſwaded: yet will he not denie, we ſuppoſe, but that they departed from the faith, and were in this eſtate neither to be accounted true Iſraelits, nor their aſſemblies true Churches, with which communion might be kept. If he ſhould, the ſcripture it ſelfe would witneſſe againſt him herein, Numb. 16.26. Nowe compare caſe with caſe, and tyme with tyme, and the eſtate of theſe people and Aſſemblies of England, wilbee found farre more grieuous, as we hauehave already ſhewed both in the defence of our Second Exception before, and iniIn the anſwer to Maſter Hilderſam, and in the 9. Reaſons concerning not hearing the Miniſters of theſe aſſembties. other Treatiſes to which yet we hauehave receiued no anſwer.
To conclude this poinct, if their Abominations in England were farre fewer then they are, yet ſo longe as they reteyne that poyſonfull leauen of their Hyerarchie and worſhip, wee must tell them as the Scripture ſaith, and experience teacheth: That“2. Kings. 4.39.40. a litle poyſon bringeth death vntounto the whole pot of pottage. A*1. Cor. 5.6. litle leauen leaueneth the whole lump. And a“Eccle. 10.1. few dead flyes cauſe the oynctment of the Apothecarie to stinke and putrifie. Although indeed their abominations are not a few, but ſwarme in aboundance amongſt them, ſome whereof wee hauehave rehearſed before in the defence of our First Reaſon, where the Reader may take a view of them.
Now in the next place, fearing belike that the euidence of the ſcripture we alleadged, could not by theſe ſhiftes of his be auoyded, but that still the reaſon deducted from thence ſtood ſtrong against them, as we hauehave ſhewed it doeth: therefore he would hauehave vsus now paſſe by them, and not apply this ſcripture to them,Nota. or their mother Church of Rome, but vnderstand it of Martion the heretike, and Tatianus, of whom he ſaith, that they abſolutelie condemning mariage and certen meates, might indeed euen therin wholie fall from the faith, ſomewhat like to Baalam, Iudas, and thoſe Apoſtate Iſraelites lately ſpoken of, namely for hauing their conſciences conuicted and ſeared with an whote iron: And thus (ſayth he) are they in no compariſon with them of England: Well, But first if his former anſwer were of any weight, it might be asked, why then the followers of Martion and Tatianus, might not likewiſe hauehave defended them thus, & ſaid, that their departure from the faith, was but in ſome poincts, not wholy from all? Secondly we anſwer, that if this ſcripture was verified as he graunteth) in Martion and Tatianus, for their condemning of mariage and meates, then we must needes alſo thinke it verified in the Romiſhe whoore, and her apoſtate children, whiche are falne into the verie ſinnes, that are heere mentioned. Teh Apostle mentioneth Martion and Tatianus, no more then he doeth the whooriſh Babilon, and the children of her Fornication: but comprehendeth heere all ſuch who ſo euer they be, as ſhall fall into this Apostaſie.
Nowe moreouer, if the“1. Tim. 4.1, 2, 3. wordes of this ſcripture be duely weighed, & either other ſcriptures, or the estate of the Romiſh Harlott and her children compared therewith, it wilbe founde as liuely to deſcribe theſe, as either Martion or any other that euer were in the world. First when the Apostle ſayeth, that this ſhalbe in the latter tymes, who ſeeth not that it doeth moſt directly poinct at the Romiſh whoore, though we doubt not, but Martion alſo and Tatianus, which liued twelue hundreth yeares ſince, or thereabouts, may alſo be comprehended therein. Secondly, when it is ſaide, they ſhall departe from the faith, thereby ſignifying that once they held the faith, howe plaine is this of the Romiſh harlot, which in the“Rom. 1.7. Apoſtles time was the beloued ſpouſe of God, and ſince is falne into Apoſtacy, and become the Mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth, as the*2. Theſ. 2.3. and Reu. 17.1, 2, 3, 4, 5. ſcriptures in other places witneſſeth. Thirdly, whē it is ſaid, they ſhall giuegive heede to ſpirits of errour, and doctrines of Deuils, how fitly agreeth this to the Romiſh Babilon which (as the ſcripture els“Reu. 18.2. where teſtifieth) is become the habitation of Deuils, and the hold of all foule ſpirits? Fourthly when it is ſaid, they ſhall ſpeake lies through hypocriſie (not to recken vp the infinite particulars that might be alleadged for proof hereof) how fitly doth this deſcribe the Religion and practiſe of the man of ſinne (the Romiſh Antichriſt) which the ſcripture*2. Theſ. 2.7. els where calleth a miſtery of iniquitie: as pretending to be with and for Chriſt, and to draw men vntounto him, when indeed it is oppoſed againſt and exalted aboue the Lord Ieſus Christ, and all his holy ordinances. Fiftly, when it is ſaid, they ſhall hauehave their conſciences ſeared with an whote iron, how true is this found vponupon the throane of the Beaſt, & his Kingdome, concerning which, the ſcripture alſo teſtifieth in“Reu. 16.10.11. another place that when the vials of Gods wrath ſhalbe powred out vponupon them, and they conuinced of their impieties and obominations, they ſhalbe ſo farre from acknowledging and forſaking thē, as they ſhal gnaw their tōgues for ſorrow, & rather thē they wil forſak their wickednes, ſhall*Let their raylinges, ſlaunders, edictes, articles, iniunctions, finallie their continuall oppoſitions and madnes againſt ye truth and people of God, be witneſſes of all this. fight againſt God and his truth, blaſpheaming the God of heauen for their paines & for their ſores, & not repenting of their workes. Lo here a ſeared conſcience in the beaſtes kingdome. Finally, when the Spirit of God here giueth two particular inſtances of his apoſtacie. 1. The forbidding of Mariage, 2. And the cōmaunding to abſtaine from meates, which God hath created to be receiued with thankeſgiuing. How directly doeth he in both theſe, as it were with the finger, poinct at the Romiſh Babilon and her daughters? Jn the one, that is, the forbidding of mariage, when as the Romiſh Babilon forbiddeth it to Prieſts, Friers, Nunnes, and ſuch like, and the Engliſh her daughter, to fellowes of Colleges, and prentiſes, and both of them, to all men and women in Lent, Aduent, Rogation weeke, &c. Jn the other, that is, the forbidding of meates created of God to bee receiued with thankeſgiuing, when as both of them, commaund to abſtaine from fleſh, on their ſaincts eues, Emberdayes, Lent, Fridayes, and Satterdayes, throughout the yeare.
Thus then we hauehave ſhewed that this ſcripture (which hee would turne ouer to Martion and Tatianus) doth moſt fitly agree vntounto, and most plainly deſcribe the Romiſh Apoſtacy, whether wee apply it to their preſent eſtate, or compare this and other ſcriptures togeather, ſpeaking of the ſame Apoſtacy and defection. By this alſo which hath bone ſaid, it may appeare, that as he ſaith of Martion and Tatianus, that they might be ſaid wholy to fall from the faith ſomewhat like to Balaam, Iudas, and thoſe apostate Iſraelites lately spoken of, namely for hauing their conſciences conuicted and ſeared with an whot iron: So alſo it is verified, and may be ſaid of the Romiſh Babilon and her daughters. Touching which poinct of their conuicted conſciences, as alſo of the Apostate Iſraelites in particuler, compared with them of Englande, ſee moreouer what is ſaide before in defence of the ſixt Reaſon at the end thereof.
Now if ſeeing the euidence of this“1 Tim. 4.1, 2, 3. ſcripture, ſo full & plaine againſt them (as hath bene declared) he would except, that ſo it is in the Romiſh Church, but not in theirs of Englande: First by this meanes he would ouerthrowe his owne anſwere here, which hath denied it, of the popiſh forbidding of meates and marriages, and would turne it ouer from them to Martion and Tatianus: Secondly, this would not hinder but that the conſequent of our Propoſition and the Aſſumption alſo were good, and therefore the Argument ſtrong and of force. Thirdly, the particulars before mentioned, (being founde in their Church of Englande) will testifie it alſo, to be verified of them. Lastlie, although many of the abominations of the whoores cup of Babilon be nowe cast out of England, (for which alſo we prayſe God) yet ſo long as they reteyne the Hyerarchie,Reue. 17.1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Stinted Leyturgie, confuſion of people, Canons, Excommunications, &c. deriued vntounto them from that mother of whoredomes and abominations of the earth, wee must needes beleeue and alleadge against them the ſcripture and common prouerbe which ſayth?Ezek. 16.44. As is the Mother, So is the Daughter. And hetherto of the defence of this reaſon.
Nowe moreouer lett it heere be obſerued, howe theſe men, to defende their estate, are glad to runne into the Papistes Tentes, and to take vpp their worne & rustie weapons, which hauehave bene of no force to defend them ſelues, but hauehave bene often & iustly turned into their owne bowels. Read the“Rhemes notations vponupon 1. Tim. 4.3. Reames Annotations vponupon this place (1. Tim. 4.) and ſee if theſe men heere would not auoyde the euidence of this ſcripture againſt them, by the very ſame ſhift and anſwer, by which the detestable Ieſuites there would turne it from their mother of Rome, that is, by posting it ouer from them ſelues to Martion and Tatianus. Read it, and note it well.
H. JACOB his 2. Reply to the 7. Reaſon.
TO this your defence of your Seuenth Reaſon, I ſay, Though eueryevery where you are very vnreaſonable, yet no where you ſeeme more vnconſcionable and wilfull then here.
Firſt, doe I ſay No to the Apoſtles Yea, 1. Tim. 4.1, 2, 3. That they who forbid Mariage and Meates doe fall from the faith. Doe I ſay noe? Is this your conſcience? Say I not expreſly, They doe in theſe points departe from the faith, A ſtrange vntrueth.but not abſolutly and wholy.
Secondly, doeth it follow by my words, as you affirme, That none departe from the faith but thoſe that departe totally, wholy, and abſolutely, whereby all the vildeſt Heretikes ſhould be iustified, as Arrians, Nestorians, Anabatiſts, &c. Doe I ſay ſo? Is this alſo your conſcience? Againe doe I ſay, The text doth not reproue all the Papiſts in their forbidding of Mariage and Meates, but only Martion and Tatianus of old? Doe I ſay any ſuch thing? Nay, ſay I not expreſlie the contrarie? Are you then a man of conſcience? Doe you ſuffer for conſcience? Know therefore that this I ſay, and my wordes before doe import ſo much. That whoſoeuer doe forbid mariage or meates, doe depart from the faith. But note: ſome doe more, ſome leſſe. There are ſome that doe ſimply and fundamentally, and others in ſome ſorte. Men departe from the faith Simply and Fundamentally two wayes. Firſt they which doe erre in ſuch maine poincts as doe vtterly aboliſh vsus from Chriſt and deſtroy the Foūdation: thus doe Arrians, Manichees, Seruetus, Papiſtes, &c. Secondly, ſuch as holding the Foundation in doctrine ſound, doe deſperatly profeſſe and teach ſome what els, againſt the manifeſt light that is in them: ſo Martion and Tatianus, doe Fundamentally and ſimply fall from the faith, becauſe they ſimply forbid thoſe good ordinances of God, Marriage and Meates, euen againſt the light of conſcience & nature: togeather wherewith, a liuely ſauing faith cannot poſſibly ſtand. Now the Papiſts in this do departe from the faith alſo, but that is only in ſome ſorte or in parte: becauſe they forbid theſe things (not abſolutly, but) vntounto ſome, & ſometimes. They that departe thus from the faith, may bee true Chriſtians notwithſtanding, yea they are certenly, if they be no worſe in any thing els, albeit you deny it here moſt fondly & without all ſence. To which end you moſt vnlearnedly and vngodly apply thoſe ſcriptures, Scriptures abuſed.A litle leauen leueneth the lump, A few dead flyes make the oyntment to ſtincke, and a little poyſon bringeth death. Will you hauehave no tainte of euell in a Chriſtian, but it quencheth the life of God in vsus needes? Is it not poſſible your ſelues might hold ſome ſuch errors, and yet remayne true Chriſtians notwithſtanding? Then if Papiſts were no worſe but in thoſe errors only, they might be true Chriſtians notwithſtanding. But Martion and Tatianus doe wholy departe from the faith, not but that they beleued ſome truthes: but in that they “The ſame did Corah, Da than and Abyram likewiſe See before in anſwer to ye 2. Exception, ye a Reply.preſumptuouſly quenched the inſtinct of nature & conſcience, as I hauehave ſaid. Here then it appeareth how wicked a ſclaunder it is that you ſay, I runne into the Papiſtes tents, and fight with their weapons, & doe iump with the Remiſts annotations on, 1. Tim. 4.1, 2, 3. Iudge now by this that I hauehave ſaid, whether I doe or no.
And note, that I ſaye, that they be either Apoſtates or departers from the faith, not onelyonly who fall totally, as you ſclaunder me that I ſaye: but alſo who fall fundamentally, that is, eyther the firſt way or ſecond, as I hauehave afore ſaide. And ſo doe theſe groſſe Heretikes whom you mention, 1 Arius, Seruetus, Papiſtes, &c. 2. Martion, Tatianus, Iudas, Corah, Balaam, the Apoſtate Iſraelites, &c. Thus then your queſtions and demaundes about the Papiſtes and their errors, I paſſe by, as more vayne, then pertinent. OnelyOnly note withall, if this reaſon of yours were good, it maketh Maiſter Cranmer. Ridley, &c. to be departers from the faith, & no true Chriſtians.