Some Laid Open in his Colors, Text (2 of 3)

Some Laid Open in his Colors · Text (2 of 3)

p. 42Well as it is cleare you see, that M. Some can begg the question as wel as his betters. So you shal wel perceue, that he can speake for himselfe, if his neighbors p. 43wil not. And in deede for that good guift of sounding forth the trumpet of his owne praises, he shal hauehave it of all, and of al. To begin withal, what say you to this? If you wil knowe (saith he) what I thinke of sound preaching before th'administration of th'holy Sacrament, my 97answere is, that I doe greatly both like and commend it. &c. This mind was I euer of since I knewe what gods Religion & good Diuiuitie meant: howe say you? Is not sound preaching much beholden to M. Some, that wil of his curcesie vouchsafe it both his liking and commendation? Belike it had bin in some danger to h…ue lost his credite, if M. Some had not reached forth his hand to giuegive it some alowance: wel for al that he had best looke to it, that he doe not only affoard it his good lik…ng in words, but that he reuerence it in deed from his hart, and that to some measure of practize, if he louelove his owne soule: otherwise wee can tell him it wil bruize him into powder in th'end, were he 10. times better then he is, being (as he may e…silie lerne by th'Apostle) either A Sauour of life vntounto life, or A Sauour of death vntounto death: and therefore not to be dallied withall, as if it were as our pleasures to entertaine it or reiect when we thinke good, but he that doth it not, that is, he that doeth not embrace the word preached, as the message of saluation with trembling and feare, may be sure (without repentance) he very curse of God will overtake him and his seede, what meanes your D. then to tel vsus so solemly of his good liking of sounde preaching, when in paine of Gods vengeance he is bound to like it? But he telleth vsus farther, that it hath pleased many of excellent learning 66and wisdome to like of his treatise. Sure if they did so, then is th'olde prouerbe verified, that Blessing goeth by sauour. Some B. belike or Bishopl…ke man, for I doe not thinke that any man els would abuse him so p. 44much And you may tel your Doct. from, me that certainly if they were Courtiers they did but flout him, if they were learned and of judgment in deede, they did but flatter him And therefore for mine owne part I cannot so much condemne him in this case, if in the want of Heraulds and some other good friends, he be forced as it were, to make an emblazure of his owne coate armor himselfe, who can blame him then: if in speaking of the ignorant ministers he tel vsus himselfe, when no man els will tel vsus for him, That his writings and sermons are not Ajax shield to couer them, 150but the Lords sworde to cut them? So that if any man be desirons newe to finde out the swoorde of the Lord, where shall he redilier come by it, then about the exchange or those places where M. Some vseth to prech, there he may happen heare news of it. But by the way can you shewe me any writer olde or newe, that euer gaue that name of the Lords sworde to his owne writings and sermons with his owne mouth, but only M. Some? I knowe right wel, that the true preaching of the worde, is both the fire of God to burne, the water of God to quench, and the sworde of God to cut betwixt the marrow and the bones: but what of that? Yet it may be doubted whether M. Some may justly brag of any such apparant successe of his labours: and if he could, yet me thinks modesty might hauehave taught him rather to hauehave left the publishing and emblazinge thereof to others, then thus out of season to be the proclaimer of it himselfe, indeede if a man marke it, there is much a do through out his whole booke with his writings, his words, his reasons, his answeres, his sermons, &c. which it semeth he woulde faine fasten vppon posteritie for lawes and statutes, as if the ground of al good knowledge were grauen in the very wrinkles of his forehead: in one place he tels M. Penri, p. 45that he may as easily fetch oile out of a flint, as any such consequents out of his writings. &c. And againe, They 81which hauehave heard my sermons, or reade my writings, &c. And yet more, my own words in this present Chapter, are as cleare as the Sunn. &c. what should a man talke of it then, when al things that M. Some doth are so cleare, so direct, and in so good proportion? There be men in the world, that write out of jointe sometimes, speake darkely and intricately, and make many euil consequents, but they be not belike of that colledg that M. Some was of, where a man shall as soone fetch oile out of a flint. &c. as any thing that hath not his weight & measure, and therefore no maruel if he call his owne writings and Sermons, The Lords sword to cut these ignorant ministers, for he that doeth neuer any thinge out of square, must needs cut deepely I trowe. In deed if he coulde so cut them, that they might be quite cut of the ministerie, it were a happy cuttinge both for them and our church. But that he is not the man that is like to worke this cure, we see by his lookes. For as our Sauiour Christ saith to his disciples, This kinde of Matth. 17.Matt 17Deuill is not cast out but by praier and fasting. So wee say to M. Some, that this kinde of Deuil or deadly sore of our dombe ministery, (which may rightly be called Vlous Matricis, that so feastereth and wrankeleth inwardly, euen to the very bowels of our Church, and State) can neuer be cured but with an humble spirit, & a hart that bleedeth for the ruines of Sion, which because it is a lesson, that it semeth M. Some had neuer yet any leasure to take out, we cannot looke for any great thing from those cutting sermons and writings of his, though he shoulde blaze them to vsus a thousande times ouer: wel may they helpe a litle to the lapping and shreading of the tree, but to hewe it downe by the roote (because the high minded hart is commonly by p. 56Gods just judgment plagued with a bluntedged pen) wee neuer looke for at the handes of any such as M. Some is, til he be come of a better spirit then hitherto he hath shewed himselfe.

Nowe that you may witnesse with me that I doe him noe wrong in all this, I pray you aske him when you see him, whose sweete sentences these be. Content 66 71your selfe I hauehave made no fault: The fault is in your eie, and not in your penne: if that you meane that my reasons 70 69are faultie in the eies of the learned, you mistake the matter: if my reasons were sutable to your sencelesse answers, 87 96they were strange stuffe: I swarue not one jotte from the cause I dealt in: My answer to your obiection is very direct: 132 102 103My reason was a very sure one. For the cleare proofe of this point I hauehave set downe sound reasons: I mislike the popish Priesthood and sacrafice asmuch as he, and if 179 147occasion serue, wil set downe sure reasons to shake them both in peeces. Sure it is odds, your Doct. neuer looked downe on his leggs, but al one his feathers, when hee perfumed vsus with this sweete powder. But howe say you, hauehave I done him any wrong? The places you see I hauehave quoted, be you your self the judge, here is neither swaruing nor falting, but al sound, sure and direct therefore you may see what a treasure your vniuersitie hath bred vp to our Church, such a sure card as we may be bold to trust vntounto, if there do chance to fall a dearth of learned men in this age. And in this glasse it was belike, that he beheld himselfe, when he told vsus so confidently, That there is some reson that Gods truth should hauehave more defence by him, then by his aduersarie. 144Wherein I dare say you thinke, that the life blood of his owne conceit did tickle him a little too much. In deede if he be so sure a man as he supposeth himselfe to be, there must needs be more loked for at his hands then of other poore men that are not halfe so sure: & p. 47it is like he speaketh this altogether in the ouerweening of his owne sufficiencie, to make vsus knowe what ods there is betwixt his poore aduersarie and him, otherwise wee see no reason why the defence of Gods trueth (according to the measure of his talentes and place) should not euerie way be as deare and precious vntounto another as to M. Some. I perceiue it woulde distemper him vnreasonably, if one should tell him that Mast. Penri hath discharged a better duetie to Gods Church in one sixe leaues, then euer M. Some did in all that euer he wrote, and yet I thinke he that should say so, might hauehave hands enow to subscribe to it, euen of the godliest and best affected subjects in the lande: but I purpose not to enter into that comparison, let eche man speake as his heart hath felt comfort, and God giuegive M. Some an humbler spirit. Only this much I thinke one may safely and truely say, that in all that euer M. Penri hath written (though M. Some hauehave beprouded him I know not how many times) no man shal be able justly to finde any one dashe with a pen, sauoring so palpably the corruption of the heart, thorow the good liking of himself, as is in a hundred places of M. Somes book. Too long and loathsom it were to runne through all, and therefore I wil onelyonly ad som few more to sute with the rest: Your feare (saith hee) that posteritie will not rest in my reasons, is a vaine fear: My arguments for baptisme by vnpreaching ministers are 94 73such as you are not able to stir: if I hauehave any learning, you doe toto caelo errare. For the knowledge that God hath giuen me, I thanke his maiestie very humblye: I can receiue 66 139no disgrace by anye such as you are, &c. How saye you, is not this a medicine to giuegive a modest man a vomit? or is not this able to make a man draw his mouth to his elbowe, to heare a man professing learning, lay about him on this fashion beyond the bonds of shamfastnes: p. 48Why did your D. neuer read Laus propria sordescit in ore? Tush he is at a point you see, and goeth on like a censurer in his impious vaine, telling master Penri, That as yet he maketh very meane account of his 66iudgement: And againe in another place to the same effect, he presseth him shrewdly: You desire pardone of 82 83me, if you recant (saith he) you shall hauehave an easie sute, otherwise I doe and will account very basely of you: Was not the man in a golden dreame thinke you, when he perswaded himselfe, that the whole poize of the matter lay vponupon his account? Take heed therefore my masters of the fantasticall crue, if you go on your course, you see what will come of it, certainly M. Some will account very basely of you, and where be you then? I know peradventure what you will saye, that this base account of his, is but as a man stuffed with draw, that fraieth the birds but for a day or two, and afterwards they feare not to pecke on his head: And if you saye so, then comes M. Some vponupon you againe, full as powerfully as before, and telleth you plainly, That he will speake for you, if you reuoke your errors and heresies, otherwise 143he will not once open his lip for you, or any suche as you are, &c. And then ye are drest, if M. Some giuegive you ouer once, therefore it is good to bee wise, and to looke before you leape. Thus I hope you see that your Doct. is none of these nice and shamefast diuines that in the sense and feeling of his owne good gifts, is afraid to make knowne to you what he can doe. But where abouts dwelt he trow you, or what vncurteous neighbors had he, that would thus suffer him for want of helpe, to sing all the 4. parts himselfe? Fie, fie, that an ancient D. of diuinity should be thus vsed. It is sure long of these puritanes that are dispisers of degrees of Schooles, and thereby force men to fall a praysing of themselues, whether they will or no. But in good p. 49earnest speake your mind, do you not thinke M. Some to be vnmatchable in this Thrasonicall veine? When you shew me the like of any learned protestant of our time, I will then yeelde my selfe faltie, and saye I did him wrong. Till then you must giuegive me leaue to think that he is among diuines, th' onelyonly prince of conceyted writers in this age: vntounto al which vnbridled Rhetorike of his, if I were as M. Penri, I wold neuer make any other answere then this, for thus it pleaseth Mast. Some to play with him. It is easie to say so, & you might worst hauehave said it. A partie is vnsit to be a iudge, I hope we shall not hauehave a P…thagoras of you. Would you hauehave 67your boystrous speach go for an oracle, and carie all as a streame before it? It were a hard case, I trust you desire it not, if you do, you are not like to hauehave it: your writings are not as the lawes of the Medes and Persians. After all 92his vanting of himselfe, if M. Penri should happen to send him this nosgaie in a letter, being as he knowes, eadem mensura, and very justly returned vpō his head (because of all men in the world, he might worst hauehave song vsus this note in his owne praise) me thinkes this should make him looke downeward a little, and humble himselfe.

Now if one should aske your D. what was the reson why in both his tretises he had such a special flying at this point, namely that the Church of England is the vizible Church of Christ, which I hope M. Penri wil not be so madde to gainsay, I perswade my selfe he would answere, that he discharged the shotte onelyonly at the Brownists, and that M. Penri and his disciples must giuegive some other men leaue, both to make fond arguments & to hold dangerous opinions, aswel as themselues neuertheles, that this should not be wholly M. Somes drift, may sufficiently appeare by these glaunces that followe.

p. 50The marke I feare that M. penri leuels at, is simyly to condemne, th'outward calling of the Ministery of out 35Church, & so to shake hands with th' Anabaptisticall recusantes. &c. Some part of his writings looke shrewdely that way.

And againe, if you meane (saith he) that the best calling in our Church, is simyly corrupt, that is non at all, I 130detest your Anabaptistical fansie. For then the worthiest diuines in this land are no Ministers. And yet more, if you doe simply condemne th'externall calling of the ministers of our Churche, then in your iudgement, we hauehave 114no ministery, no Sacrament, noe visitble Church in England I looked I confesse vntounto you, that in the necke of this should hauehave followed these words, and then belike her Maiestie, is noe visible member of the Church, for that would hauehave suted well with the rest of these prety ifs. And how think you now, was this great ordinance laid only to batter the Brownists? I am sure you do not think it: But why be al these ifs brought in, whē the man that he writes against, did not soe much aa dreame of any such matter? Forsoth because the Stae should thinke (for what should wee els conjecture,) that M. Penri is in some sort a Brownist, and then let D. Some alone with him: in like sorte, what shoulde meane al those worthy booke cases of S. Bartholmews hospital? That reading doth edisie. That the Scripture is of credit in it self: That he that doth thus, &c. is a Massalian heretike, & he that doth thus. &c. is a filthy Atheist &c. what should al these I say, & a number of the like meane, but only to drawe the state to thinke that M. Penri is either in part an Atheist, or in parte an heretike, or els that he houlds the contrary to some of these principles, I pray you recommend me to your D. when you see him, and tel him from me, that there is litle diuinitie or humanitie in this, let him vse it as p. 51much as he wil, it wil be found as I saide, (when all is done) but a sluttish tricke of M. Bridges, liker a great deale, to begrease his fingers, then to bring any grace or credite to his penne.

And not only heerein by your leaue, hath your D. offered his poore aduersary more injury, then some thinke a man of his profession might well doe with a good conscience, but also in sundry other respects he offers him in my judgmente as foule play as I hauehave seene, vsed of any man professing learning in my life. And wil you to begin withal see a paterne of it? Then marke first what M. Penri setts downe to be the question, for these I take it be his owne words. The question therefore is not (saith he) whether the one or th'other of them hauehave deliured a Sacrament in respect of th'action 10don, but whether a christian going vntounto them for these holy seales, may be assured that he can receiue the same at their hands. &c. This you see is plaine enough: yet M. Some in his preface tels vsus far otherwise, that the question is, whether such as were and are baptized by popish priests and ignorant ministers hauehave & doe receiue a Sacrament. &c. his aduersarie layeth downe in flat terms that it is not the question, and yet your D. blusheth not to say, that it is the question: were it not good then that they were both bound hand and foote till they were agreed to the Question? Nay soft you will say, that promotion wil doe better with one of them then with both, like enoughe. But is not this foule play thinke you, that M. Some wil enforce a question vponupon his adueasarie whether he wil or noe, M. Penri vtterly rejecting it in so expresse terms calling it an odious & impertinent controuersie, and telling M. Some, that he hath therein quickned a dead controuersy, not vnlike to breede stirs through the wrangling spirits of this age. &c. And why may not he I pray you take the same libertie p. 52in this question as M. Some doth in an other or the like? For in this point, whether infants ought rather to be kept vnbaptized, then to be presented to popish Baptysme, hatken I pray you to M. Somes resolution: After he hath told vsus Caluins judgment, he shutteth vp the whole with this good loose: I confesse freely that this is a very waighty question, (but in this our time 181a needelesse question, and that men of great excellencie for learning hauehave their seueral iudgments: and speake your conscience: If M. Penri should answere euen so to th'other question, vz. Whether that which is deliuered by popish and vnpreaching ministers, be a sacrament or no, were it any greate blasphemie; If he should chance to say in effecte as M. Some doeth, that this in our time is but a needelesse & fruitlesse question, and eccellente men hauehave their seueral iudgments, were it not pitty to make him an anabaptist, a catabaptist, or a Pelagian for this.

O but you will say, that though M. Penri do denie it to be the question, yet of consequence it must needs be the question whether he will or no: for if the popishe and dumbe ministers hauehave no ministerie at all, then that which either they hauehave deliuered, or do deliuer can be no sacrament, and so her majestie and a number of excellent men mo, must be vnbaptized at this day. This beleeue me is a shrewd blowe, and may well be called a Silogisme in Bocardo, and yet if her majesties name were left out, it might peraduenture bee avoided with more ease: But I praye you what thinke you of the second point of M. Somes first treatize, That a godly prince may not suffer any religion but the true religion, either publikely or priuatly in his dominions, is not that a sound point agreable to the word? I am sure you wil not denie it, and yet by that which I hauehave learned of M. Some I can teach you a Cambridg p. 53tricke to overthrowe it: namely thus, Her Maiesty all Christendome knowes to be a godly Prince, and in that regard, through the great mercy of God fewe princes vnderunder the Heauen to be compared vntounto her, yet hath shee neuertheles suffered the Ambassadors of sorrain nations to hauehave their Masse, (which shee must needs knowe to be Idolatrie) within her dominions. Therefore either that proposition of M. Somes is false, or els he must be forced to yeeld that her maiestie is in that regard vngodly: And if he doe so, then I hauehave him where I woulde hauehave him, & marke I pray you, how I can fetch him about for neede with a proper short declamation (but truly it is a sweet on) of the lerned Bridges, Secundum ordine Sarum in this maner: Yea my learned masters are ye good at that? Is the winde in that dore? Are ye come after so many miraculous blessings, and such an extraordinarie hand of God vponupon her maiestie, after all that great care and indeuour she hath had to aduance the Gospell, and to succor th'afflicted members thereof, (So many thousand of christian soules hauing bin saued vnderunder her gouernment) are ye become I say, nowe after all this, openly to charge & accuse her of vngodlinesse? I knowe brethren, that the best Princes vnderunder the Heauen, hauehave their seuerall infirmities: But openly to tollerate so grosse & greuous a sinne against the honor of God, and the light of his trueth, this is more brethren then may well be shadowed by infirmitie: Therefore what shal I say? With griefe I speake it and yet I must needs speake it, O wicked & vngrateful wretches to their dreade soueraigne the Queenes highnes, that thus bash not to require her with repining and slaunders: Fie, Fie Bretheren, beware, what you write an other time, aske pardon of her Maiestie, for she is merciful and most godly: whome ye hauehave thus openly slaundered to be vngodly: Therefore away with that false proposition and burne the record for shame. For you p. 54see plainly that a godly Prince may suffer some other religion beside the true religion, within her Dominions: howe say you now? HaueHave I not acquited my selfe worthily in confuting M. Some? For I trowe he will be better aduised, then openly to accuse her Maiestie of vngodlinesse.

And euen thus for al the world, and no better then thus doth it seeme to me, that M. Some and his assistance doe consute the Nullitie of our dumbe ministers: For they hauehave not in the world any other arguments to fright vsus with, but only that of her Maiestie, her Maiestie, which they thinke to be a byter: And it puts me in minde of a litle pretty story, that we hauehave of a scholler of Oxford, and a Clumperton of the Cuntry: The scholler hauing got a litle smattering of Lodgeicke, would needs threat downe the poore man that he could by Lodgicke prooue any thing against him: Namely, though he had a cudgel in his hand, yet he would prooue he had non: whereunto the Country man made answere, by my faieth if you doe so, Ile make your shoulders feele that I hauehave one: By the way, you must not thinke that this Country man was a B. for all he began with his Fayth, for I would you should knowe it, there be others that can sweare besides Bb. But thus you see the poore schollers logicke was somthing too weake to serue him against a cudgell. Euen so now, if one chance to denie popish ministers to be ministers: Is it not a good round ready way to refute them thus: Ile make you feel they be ministers? For what els should this fearfull thunderclap of M. Somes meane? You dare not for your eares say in flat tearmes, that it was no baptism 172which was beretosore deliuered in the popish Church &c. Yet for all this daring, D. Fulke against Stapleton, hath dared to write thus much: vnlearned priests (saith he) were forbidden to serue in the church, Bed. lib. 1. cap p. 556. In so much that S. Iohn of Beuerley baptized againe a Pag. 21yong man, which was baptized of an vnlearned priest. Yea and because it seemeth he feared no daring of anye man that should com after, he hath recorded it twice vntounto vsus in lesse then 6. leaues: For in the 11. page going before, he setts it downe more at large to this effect: That this Iohn of Beuerley told the yong man, that doubtles he was not well baptized, if that dulheaded dogbolt 11priest baptized him: And therefore after he had depriued that ignorant wretch of his ministry, he caused the yong man to be baptized a new, as not rightly baptized before, &c. Thus much D. Fulke: and I hope for all this daring, he will not reuoke it in hast, for what need he, when his book is seene and allowed? And that which is alowed by our state to confute a papist, I do not see but it hath the very same vigor and efficacie against M. Some or anye man els that jumpeth with them in judgement. And therefore if a man shoulde venter to say: That an ignorant popish priest cannot truly baptize, so long as such a speeche hath the warrant and allowance of our Church and state, what neede he feare the threat of his eares? In deede this daring of your Doctors, (when I consider of it well) me thinkes it looks like a good well fauored cudgell: And if you can tell me what figure it is in, Ile put you out of doubt what Moode it is in, so you and I betwixt vsus, shall I hope, finde out the Moode and Figure, whence this stingging syllogisme is drawne. But I muze whether euer M. Some knew D. Bourcot or no, if he did not, let him learne one of his receiptes of me for the lengthening of his life: Thou'fret and kill thy selfe, be patient, be patient. Intreat your D. the next time you see him, to fauor himself that way more then he doth, for sure these arguments that are drawne from the passionat Mood, and the threatning Figure, do nothing so well with a p. 56man of his constitution, as to be continually resident vponupon his charge: And if he looke not to it, I can tell him this choller and freting of his, with an ambitious desire to rise, will goe neere in time to be the shortening of his dayes. Alas how should the poore ignorant Welshman, or any of the santasticall crue, be able to aunswere suche an vnmercifull syllogisme as this? You dare not for your cares say, &c. Th'onely way that I see is to couch vnderunder the board, and keepe close for the time, till that same perillous pillorie, whiche so frighteth and threatneth men with their cares be shifted or remooued out of his place. In deed it is not vnlike that some of their wretched and fawning soliciters, doe but too often warble vponupon that string in her Majesties cares, thereby to make way to the rest of their odious and malicious complaints: And me think I should see some reuerent B. or other one his knees before her maiestie as one loath to speake good man, but only that the heinousnes of the case doth therevnto force him, as it were against his wil, and therfore he begins I warrant you with a sigh or 2. fetched from the very depth of his bowels in this sort: O Madame, you may see nowe what your puritans are come to: As men alwaies rising from one error to another, & neuer at rest they are nowe growen to this, that your Maiestie is not christned, are you not greately beholden to them? By this your highnes may measure the fruite of the rest of their desires: Therefore you may yeeld to their newe platforme if you please, but I feare Madame, (my hart trembleth to speake it) you shal not enioy many good daies after: Sure if wee may knowe of any such venemous complainte to her maiestie, we wil fly to M. Some to prooue them liers all, for he hath set downe in print, that M. Penri is in the case of H. N. that is in manner a lone in this judgment of the Nulltie, and therefore if they vse vsus p. 57thus, to make a number of vsus, when the sault (if it be a falt) lieth but in one alone, though wee dare not tell them, yet we will get M. Some to tell them, that by their leaue they lye, and they lye loudely toe.

But for the point wherein M. Some thinks he hath his aduersarie on the hippe, first wee say for the clearing of our selues, and we speak it even in singlenesse of heart, (be thou O God witnesse and reuenge if we lie) that we doe account her maiestie the deare childe of God, so marked from her Cradle, and so chosen from the very foundations of th'earth, whereof wee doubt not but shee hath had assured seales and testimonies to her owne soule, not only by her outwarde and miraculous desiuerances, but by an inwarde sense and seeling of Gods mercies, she hath bene from her infancie through Gods greate merciemercy deliuered from the dregs of popery, & thereby from one of the gates that leadeth vntounto hell: She hath since that time made noe doubt, some fruteful increase in the knowledge of the truth: She hath bin kept from those soule and enormious sinns, which other great States & princes hauehave fallen into: She hath not feared to professe and publikely to a vowe the cause, notwithstandinge the frowning threats, and practises of many other mightie potentates round about her: yea though her blood hauehave bene many wayes vnjustly sought for, and onelyonly for the gospell sake, yet hath shee not for any suche earthly respect abandoned the cause, but hath boldly from time to time, euen with joye of heart succoured the afflicted, both at home and abroad, yea and more, it is manifest that vnderunder that happy and peaceable soveraigntie of hers, many a thousand hauehave come to the sound knowledge of the trueth, which were before in palpable darknes. And these be to vsus ward, sussicient reasons & motions to put vsus out of doubt, that (whatsoeuer p. 58other wants, weaknesses & infirmities she may hauehave incident to flesh and blood) yet that shee is the deare childe of God and right precious in his eyes: & if that be so, then I hope I shall not need to stand loug about any pretie catechisme (as M. Some hath done about the inabillitie of the regenerate) to proue That whom God loueth, he loueth for euer: for I do assure my self, meaner mé thé M. Some are resolued in that. Wel that then being set down for granted, That whom God loueth he loueth sor euer, and that it is vnpossible for al the power of hell and darknes, to wipe her Majestie out of the booke of life, wherein she is written: let vsus com to that wound that M. Some and others do think to be so vncurable, namely, That her Maiestie should be vnbaptized.

First though it be very cleare, that M. Penri doth not say so, altogether disclaiming the point, as an odious and fruitlesse controuersie, yet because M. Some wil stil be hagling at that biting consequent, as a man halfe starued and hungerbit for want of other sustenance, let vsus alowe for once that M. Penri did say soe in deede: what then? What wil your learned D. assume vppon that: I trust if it were granted him for a maior, a man might soone ghesse what woulde be his minor, namely this, I am perswaded if you be not wel coniured by the magistrate, you wil proue a strange body, and then what should be the conclusion, but Hue & Crie? So that if the cutlers shoppe doe not better befriende your D. in this case then th'vniuersity, he is at a stand But let vsus presuppose that her maiestie were vnbaptised, (though I knowe of none that say so) yet so long as shee hath the inwarde baptisme, that is so long as shee is baptized of the holy Ghost and with fier, hauing joyfully embraced the holy faith of the sonne of God, and withall hauing the seale and assurance of p. 59that which shal neuer be taken from her, that is of remission of sinns in the death & righteousnes of Christ and that more is, hauing also many times bin comfortably fedde and refreshed at the Lords table by those holy seals of her redemption, as a farther pledg of the fauour and mercy of God, I see no reason, nor I know no vse, why after all this, that she should be brought backe againe to the sacrament of her entrance and ingrasting into the body, if it were so that she were not baptized, if there be any other mistery in the matter, I franckly confesse it is more then I see as yet. As for that ineuitable and remedilesse necessitie of the Sacrament, which the bewitched papists doe so sottishly dreame of, I hope al the children of God hauehave long a goe turned that strange beast a grazing, as hauing bin safficiently taught: That it is not the want of the sacrament, but the contempt and neglect of the sacrament that is damnable: Nowe her maiestie being already perswaded in her hart that shee is baptized, cannot thereby justly be said either to contemne or neglect the sacrament, because she resteth in that perswasion, howsoeuer it be, whether she be baptized or no, (be ing cleare from these 2. sinns of contempt and neglect) we are assured it shall noe kinde of waie redound to her hart, because shee is the childe of God, and wee doubte not but shee findeth and feeleth daylie those inward comforts and tokens of Gods louelove towardes her, as neither the adding or iterating of th'outward sacrament can by any meanes better or increase. And if that be so, then doe I not see why M. Penri or any man els should so greatly feare that blody consequent of M. Somes, vz. If popishe ministers, be no ministers, then her Maiestie is not christened. For you see when this bugbeare is vnuizarded once, then alas it hath but the face of a sheepe as it were, and his visnomy appeares p. 60nothing so terrible as it semed before.

O but you wil aske me peraduenture what I say to this: None vnbaptized may be admitted to the holy supper: I answere, that it is most true in a sorte with M. 92Somes distinction, vz. which are knowne to be vnbaptized, for those be his very words: In deede if the case be so cleared, without al question and contradiction, that both the minister & the man himselfe that is to communicate, doth assuredly know himselfe to pe vnbaptized, then I dare not denie but there is a salt both in the minister that admitteth, and in the person that so presenteth himselfe. But one th'other side, where the man verely perswadeth him selfe that he is baptized, and the minister hath no knowledge of the contrary, (though reuera and in truth, there were noe baptisme at all) then the question is howe these doe sinne, for this I take it cannot be that sinfull ignorance that M. Some mentioneth in these wordes, ignorantia excusat non a toto sed a tanto. And I hope he will not denie 90that it is a sacrament, and may be a comfortable sacrament to him that in this perswasion doth present himselfe at the Lords table, though in truth he had not the outward seale of baptisme besore. For where the Apostle biddeth a man to examine himselfe. &c. I suppose it is not to be vnderstood as is he would say thus: I charge thee that among other things thou search and enquire diligintly what was done to thee, 50. 90. yeares agoe, when thou wast an infant, whether that were true baptisme that thou diddest then receue, and whether that person that did then baptise thee, had a callinge or no: And is thou canst by no meanes bolt out the truth thereof to assure thy hart that thou wast baptised in deed then I charge thee keepe thy selfe from the holy communion, I take it I say this was noe parte of th'Apostles 92meaning, and M. Somes owne words doe seeme in a p. 61sort to crosse it: This examination (saith he) consisteth in saith and repentance, which are not in them, that either 92weetingly omit, or wilfully contemne the holy Sacrament of baptisme: So that M. Some himselfe restraining it only to one of these 2. omission of knowledge, or contempt of wilfulnesse, we thinke we may safely say that where these 2. be not, there the man, (whether he be baptised or noe) may be a worthy and fruitful receyuer. And in this case it semeth that a mans owne very hart and conscience may be a notable light and direction to him, against all the wrangling spirits in the world. For if in communicating at the Lords table, thou didst euer in thy life feele any growth in thy self with a desier to rise from the wretchednesse of the first Adam, to the righteousnes of the second Adam, if I say thou didst euer feele any inward sweetenesse and comfort in thy gratious God to a thorough peace of thy conscience, and a quieting of thy soule, then assure thy selfe (against all that man or Angell can bringe against it) that where thou hast bene once so banketed, there thou hast thy warrant from the holy Ghost without scruple to goe seast againe, and that either thou art baptized, or els that certainly thou hast noe neede of it. For as wee say to the papists touching there traditions, that seeing we hauehave life euerlasting which is all in al by the worde written, let them drawe vsus neuer so many embo slements, and tel vsus neuer so many miracles of their traditions, we valewe them al as olde conceiled records, wherein there is neither strength nor power, and the reason is, because we hauehave sufficient without them: Euen so in this case, so long as wee are assured of the principal, I meane that excellent frute of a justif…ing faith, which is a perpetual peace of conscience in the sonne of God, if any man shal thé take in hand to bring vsus into a quandare p. 62or perplexitie about our christening as they cal it, we neede not greatly feare what he can say therein, because wee are at peace with God, and therefore if he tel vsus neuer so much, That the popish priests must needs hauehave a calling, otherwise we cannot be baptized, & if wee be not baptised, then wee must keepe our selues from the communion, and so consequently be depriued of the holy seales of our redemption, vnlesse we will acknowledge popish Idolators to hauehave a calling. &c. Because these and such like, hauehave neither sappe nor edg, neither life nor quickening in them, nor can no whit better our estate touching our peace of conscience (our own very harts by the comforts that we hauehave already receued, being able infinitely to controle them) who can blame vsus, if so long as we are cleare from all contempt, and neglect of the holy sacraments, we hange all these by among other our canceled records, as a needles & frutlesse jangling to no vse?

But in the meane season, what say you to him that dare be so sawcie to controlle a whole Churche and state? may not that man for once sute with proud Penrie, or any of the fantasticall crue? I woulde be sorie that M. Some should be taken in such a tripp, but if he be, I must needs saye it is Gods just judgement vponupon him, because he doth so embitter his pen against his poore aduersarie, laying pride and blasphemie to his charge, I know not how often. Which when I looke vponupon, me thinks I shoulde heare Eliab speaking in his high voice to his yonger brother David, in this or the like manner: I know thy pride and mallice of thy heart, &c. Wel let M. Penri look to that himselfe, he knows how grieuously God hath visited that sinne in others, and therefore at his perill be it. But to make it appear to you, that your D. in this his hott and eger desire to strike M. Penri on the legs, hath not seared withall to p. 63gash our whole Church and state in the face, let that last Cannon of his (which I spake of before) vz. That non vnbaptized must be admitted to the supper, be cōpared with the practize of our Church, and then tel me your judgement: For if it be cleare, that of all those that are and hauehave bene baptized by women (which of all the learned, excepting onelyonly the papists, is confessed to be no baptisme at all) our Church doth neither rebaptize any, nor yet in that regard, repell them frō the supper: whom thē I pray you doth M. Some more crosse and controll in this case, then our very Church and state it selfe, whose doctrine & practise is flat contrary to this maxima and rule of his? And that you may see into what distresse your doctor hath brought himselfe by this meanes: marke howe syllogisticasly I can come vponupon him for need, and yet you know my Atithmaticke hath bene as good as my Logicke in my dayes.

1 The Churche of England maintaineth nothing in her doctrine or regiment, whereof she cannot reader a sounde reason and a sufficient proofe from the foundation of Gods word, to maintain it with a good conscience:

2 But the Churche of England alloweth of those (whom she knoweth & confesseth to be vnbaptized) to come ordinarily to the Lords table.

3 Ergo, it is agreeable to Gods word and to conscience, and so falleth to the grounde that assertion of M. Somes, vz. That none vnbaptized must be admitted to the supper.

How say you now? hauehave not I cut the throat of this geare? if you vrge me now to proue my maior, I know I shall no sooner name the man vntounto you from whom I had it, but you will put of your cappe straight, and I presume so much of his curtesie, that if you and I had p. 64him in a corner to spurre him the question, he woulde answere vsus as he doth elsewhere full sweetly, Forsooth brethren that did even I: for it is the kindest gentleman if you were acquainted with him that euer: well I will not say now what I know, but if you will needs hauehave my maior prooued, doe but turne I praye you to the 5. page of the learned preface of that greeke Lexicon in 40. which was printed by Charde, to his cost I feare, I befoole his fingers that was the cause of it: if you aske mee what time it was published, though I should misse of the monethmonth, yet me thinkes I shoulde not misse much of the yere, because it came forth just at the same time that many proper fooleries came out without priuiledge: Euen there I say, and in the very same page shall you finde my maior, prooued sufficiently, and I hope M. Some will not be so hard hearted to denie th'authoritie of M. Bridges, for then there is no deiling with him. My minor you see is manifest by the daily practise of our Church, in admitting such to the Lords table, as hauehave none other baptism then that of women, and that I am sure M. Some will confesse to be none: Neither is there, nor neuer was since her majesties raigne, anye tryall or examination had of the matter, nor any article, injunction, or commandement so to enquire, no nor any Homily, or other private or publike admonition that euer I heard of, to charge men to examine themselues in that point, whether they hauehave true baptism or no, but as if it were a thing nothing materiall, they are (as wee see) without further scruple receiued to the Lords table in peace. And the like is of those that are our ministers & preachers of the gospell, as well Bb. as others. For among al the Bb. articles, and vrgings to subscription, was there ever any stay made I pray you, in the admission of any to that publike function of the ministerie onelyonly vponupon p. 65that point, whether they were baptized by women or no? I thinke not, and yet it may be that manye of them hauehave had none other baptisme then that: O but you will saye that was not knowne, and at the time of their admission, it was supposed they were sufficiently baptized: But I say againe, if the matter be so materiall, as M. Some would hauehave it, that ought especially to hauehave bene knowne, and no hande giuen to their allowance, before it had bene perfectly knowne. And if we should stay till then, I thinke it would go neere to craze the license of some of the graundfathers, and make a foule scoure amongest th'oldest of our preachers: And so peraduenture, father Iohn Elmar should kisse Cate no more in the pulpit while he liued, and what a shrewd losse were that? Well I conclude therfore, sithence The Churche of England maintaineth nothing in doctrine or regiment, but she may well do with a good conscience, as from the foundation of godsword (For I tell you, wee poore parishioners hang much on that maior of M. Bridges his) and that all this while she neuer called this matter in question, but admitteth both to the Communion, and to the publik teaching in the Church, such as hauehave bin onelyonly baptized by women, and neuer stoppeth nor stayeth at it, nor maketh any enquirie after it. I conclude I say (for so it must needs fall out) that M. Some was greatly ouerseene, thus in a kinde of singularitie to controlle his betters without cause: What? I beleeue we shall hauehave one of these puritanes of him shortly, for they are alwayes taking exceptions to something or other in Churche or state. No more of that I woulde advise him if hee louelove his health or his wealth either, for those fellowes be so elvish, that they had rather begge then hauehave two benefices.

Now for farther confirmation and authorising of p. 66this practise of our Church, because M. Some seemeth to carrie so reverent a minde to his superiors, that he will submit himselfe and all his writings to their censure, I will here, to cut of al cauils, set down the judgment of one of the grauest Prelates of the land, concerning that point of womens baptisme: For these (as I am informed) are my L. of Winchesters owne words with his graue preamble and all, and I thinke himselfe will not denie them.

Although I be perswaded that the most obiestions made by some persons against the booke of commen prayer are in trueth of no waight, but rather captious & vnprofitable as concerning the Church of England, in publike prayer and the vse of the Sacraments to maintaine those things that be directly against the worde of God, yet for the quieting & better directing of some moderate minds which by occasion hauehave bin drawn into some scruple about these things, I hauehave layed downe mine opinion about the true interpretation of the same in this wise: First as touching the baptisme by Midwiues, I can assure you that the Church of England, or any that I knowe in place of gouerment therein, doth not maintaine either the baptisme of midwiues as a thing tollerable in the Church, or else the condemnation of those children that depart this worlde vnbaptized, but doth accounte them both eronius & not according to the word of God. For in the Conuocation the matter was debated amongst vsus wherin some of those persons were present, to whome the drawing of the booke was committed, whoe protested that neither the order of the booke did alowe any such thing, neither that it was any part of their meaning to approue the same: But for soe much as baptizing by women, hath bin a sore time commonly vsed and nowe also of rashnesse by some is done, the booke only taketh order & prouideth, that if the childe be baptized by the midwife rebaptizing be not admitted. p. 67For when it is done according to the forme of the questions set downe in the booke, if it shoulde be condemned as My Lord of vvinchesters judgement touching those that are baptized by Midvviues.no baptisme, it would in th'opinion of many learned draw some error of doctrine, and inferre greater inconuenience then in any Church may be borne, that is an infinite number which neuer had other baptisme, should nowe be rebaptized, and all those of yeares of discretion that were dead and were onelyonly so baptised, depart without the seale of Gods promise in the Sacrament. The learned doe right wel knowe, how the primitiue Church and the learned fathers that liued therein, shunned rebaptization, though the former baptisme were ministred either by lay persons or children: Therefore the booke prouiding only for the remedy thereof ought not to be condemned. Thus far my good L. of Winchester: The summe whereof is this: That the booke of common praier condemneth the baptisme of midwiues, and yet admitteth no other baptisme for feare of rebaptization: And why then should her Maiestie be brought back againe to baptisme, when such as in our owne judgments, were neuer baptized in deede, are notwithstanding let alone, without any farther addition, or supply of the sacrament, and yet (as I saide before) not barred from the communion for all that?

Therefore presuppose nowe a man should tell M. Some plainly, that in the popish Church there is noe true baptisme, what would he inferre vponupon that? marry that many thousands are at this day vnbaptised, & what then? Whie then they ought to be brought back againe to baptisme: Nay soft, by his fauor I deny that, for that you see is flatly ouerthrown by the judgment and practise of the Church of England, and therefore it becommeth both M. Some and me, to sit downe by it with reuerence. So that if my L. of Cant. shoulde nowe be baptized by a woman, (as being so long agoe p. 68who dare take his oath to the contary; And my L. of Winchester by a popish shaueling, what reason is it that my L. of Winchester should be washed a newe, seeing it is a ruled case that my L. of Cant. must not? And yet it may be for the true substance of Baptisme, they may well goe together in one ballance, and neuer a barrel better hearring.

But it may be you will altogether condemne this poore judgment of the Bishops, as manifestly bewraiing very grosse & palpable ignorance, wherin though I should not dissent from you, yet in as much as he is in place of on of the graue Patriarches of our church, there is noe reason, but that his very credite & countenance (if there were nothing els) should in this case be sufficient to crushe in peeces a better mans judgement then M. Somes: Beside that he is one of our ordinaries you knowe, and the statute saieth (as I take it) that in matter of doubt or scruple, we must alwaies relie vponupon the sence and interpretation of our ordinary, howsoeuer it be, I hope you wil beare me witnesse, that by this meanes both my propositions are as substantially proued as a man would wish, the deane of Sarum being author of th'one, and my L. of Winchester in a sort confirming th'other. And this I tell you before hand, (therefore looke to it and say you had warning) that if I catche M. Some once in that veine, that he wil make no boanes to reiect, and set light by such men as these, (th'one a deane, th'other a Bishop and both pillers of our Church) I will certainly in my next letter giuegive M. Penri leaue to deny Caluin, if he hauehave but the bare trueth on his side, and you cannot say nowe, but you hauehave had warning, wherein yet by your fauor, your D. case must needs be the harder, in that he cannot wel denie any of these reuerent men, but he must withal be forced inclusiue to giuegive a foule p. 69checke to our Church and State: Which rather then Gosser Bridges would doe: I knowe him so well, that I presume he would rather in reuerence denie S. Paul or any of the 12. Apostles: and what a sound harted subiect is that? In deede I must needs say thus much for him, (if he would wish me in my graue) that when he doth confute S. Paul, he doeth it lightly with as much reuerence as ever I heard or read of in my life. wel here againe is offered me occasion, to borrowe an other peece of copia rimarum out of M. Deane of Salisburies buttery booke, and to come vponupon M. Some once more with a dutch figure or two, in this extrauagant manner: Yea my learned brother, are you good at that? Is the winde in that doore? Are you nowe come to that height of conceite in your selfe, as not to feare openly to controle a whol Church or state? Fye, Fye, brother either vnsay that again, or farewell all brotherhood. &c. But I wil not blot any more paper, with such ware as this, there is enough of it to be had in the west Country, if a man could light on it, only you may imagine, if M. Penri should hauehave thus crossed and encountered the doings of our Church and State, what a heauie sentence should hauehave passed vponupon him, then I warrant you the streets would hauehave rong, of that Proude scismatical Anabaptist, which had so troubled heuen, church, & common wealth. &c. And thus you see the ginnes that are so purposely set for an other, may somtimes ensnare the fouler himselfe.

As to that greate scule rolle of errors and absurdities charged with such an imperiall Maiestie vppon the poore Welch mans head, I knowe … well what to say, only if I had bene of Councel withal at the beginning, th'enrollement shoulde hauehave bene made in parchment and not in paper: For nowe being but bare paper, see the ill luck of it, the Mice hauehave so mangled p. 70the record, that the absurdities were neuer worth talking of since, therefore the onelyonly shift for your D. is, to get them passe by parliament if he can, for otherwise to take them to be such vppon his bare worde, he must pardon vsus for that, for if he were Archb. of Cant. I tel you, we would be loath to take his worde in this case, we heare in deed many times a great noise and a rusteling, and we see before vsus as it were a swelling sea of big words, telling vsus many wonders of certaine strange blasphemies, absurdities, and I knowe not what: but when we come to examine them by the touchston, and look to be satisfied by some plaine demonstration or silogistical profe, then beholde in liew of this, there appeares before vsus a man new come out of the cloudes (as it were) with his mace in his hand, and his sandalles on his feet (as it should seme) rather to make lawes then to handle controuersies, pointing with his finger, at this and at that, telling vsus what he thinks, as if al the world were to gape vponupon him: For what els should all these pretty flowers meane, wherin for the most parte lieth the wholle power of your D. booke; I am not of your judgment: This is a grosse error: Herein I dissent from you: This is a blasphemous absurditie: My arguments are such as you are not able to stirre: This is a most absurde heresie: I detest your Anabaptistical fansie. &c. with a number of the like whereof you hauehave seene the recorde already, yea and sometimes he refers vsus we thanke him, very friendly to his chapter bidding vsus reade his answere, which when we come to vewe, either it serueth vsus for a pretty dictionary to Caluius institutions, or els wee are just as wise as we were before: For this you shal finde to be true (if you vewe it attentiuely) that he hath for the most parte as much substance in his very table of direction as he hath in the whole chapter whereunto wee are p. 71directed, and peraduenture more toe, by the reason of some distemperature that makes him forget himself, yea and for our better satisfaction, he tels vsus and that very often, that he doth rest in that which he hath written, dreaming belike, that because himselfe hath some good liking of his own Image, therefore others must needs hauehave so to. But howe if this test be a broken rest? or howe if D. Bridges and D. Bancroft should also tel vsus, that they likewise for their parts, do rest in that which they hauehave written? Yet M. Some knowes that hee 183must needs be a very restie Iade, that for all this resting of theirs, would rest or relie vponupon any such fripperie ware as they hauehave cumbred the Church with. But is it not a shrewd wipe to feareful and ignorant men, when a man of that aunciencie as M. Some is, shall reach at vsus with a weapon drawn from the experience of his owne learning and judgment? in this manner: If I hauehave any learning, you doe toto caelo errare: It is something I confes, and yet if our brother Bridges had 73so come vppon vsus, we should hauehave done well enough with him, we could quickly hauehave added this Minor to his Maior: But Heuen and earth knoweth brother Bridges, that you hauehave no learning, & are but a sol▪ ergo, mary to M. Some the case goeth harder with vsus, and therefore he that woulde nowe be resolued in the point, whether dumbe ministers be ministers or no, neede noe more but ride to Cambridge, to know whether M. Some be learned, & if he finde him to be so, then to make no question but that they be ministers in deed, quod substantiam but not quoad qualitatem. Neuerthelesse because learned men hauehave their slipps somtimes, and are not so priuiledged, but that in their heate or height of spirit, they may nowe and then let fall absurdities as wel as others, therefore we are in noe greate feare of this neither, the rather because your D. leaueth p. 72vsus certain pretty outrules (I dare not say absurdities) vncanceled of purpose as I thinke, to try whether his aduersarie be spu…blinde or noe: For what els shoulde this meane? If you denie not that it is a Sacrament you affirme it: For not to denie is to affirme: Every childe (saith M. D.) can teach you that lesson: And I promise you then it is a proper lesson, but if a childe can so redily 140teach it, I trust an elder man may as readily learn it. See then what a wit I hauehave, that can at the first dash vponupon the sight of one bare paterne, thwite you out an other straight, full as good as that: M. Some denies not that I am a bastard, Ergo he affirmes it. For not to denie is to affirme. EueryEvery childe can teache him that. Ye howe nowe? What occasion did I giuegive M. Some to call me bastard? Trust me if he vse me so, ile hauehave an action of the case against him: For I would he should knowe it, my mother is an honest gentlewoman, & nobly borne: And thus you see, of words may grow blowes. Wel for al that, if I wist your D. were in good earnest, I would certainly get M. Penri to wright on his head as an absurditie, and a childish absurditie to by his leaue, with out either reson or sense: for what cōsequēce is there I pray you in these, M. Some denies not that his brother Bridges is a patch, Ergo he affirmes it: M. Some denies not that the calling of an Archb. is vnlawfull, Ergo he affirmes it: For not to denie is to affirme? He that had a good commission to reason thus at his pleasure, might peradventure mooue your D. patience vnreasonably, and make the couler come in his face: For so a man might be convinced to affirm a thousand things that he neuer so much as dreamed of, because it cannot be prooued that euer he denied them.

O but you will saye peraduenture, that M. Some meanes this onelyonly of those thinges that are in question and debate, and not of eueryevery thing at randome: As p. 73if there be a controuersy about Predestination, he that in handling of this denies it not, may truely in a sort, be said to affirme it: And so now the controuersie being about the Sacrament from popish priests, and M. Penri not denying it, may truely in like sort be said to affirm it. And then by that reckoning there is no douting of any thing. For if a man doubt of a thing, and denie it not, he affirmes it straight. And is this trowe you th'evidence that M. Some will plead for himselfe in this case? Now sure then hath he firmed faire: And what may the good Deane of Sarum saye to this, but that he was borne in an vnfortunate houre, to be by this proper distinction manifestly convinced as a traitor, euen by the mouth of my L. of Winchester himselfe, if it were he that fumbled vsus vp that sodden Admonition to the people of England? For Martin (whom he cals the libeller) chargeth D. Bridges with flat treason, and I take it, he names both the place & the page: Now comes father Admonitor, and he worthely defends, but what? marie forsoth, for want of other matter. That ministers liuings should not be takē from them, and be employed he knowes not howe. But the principall thing in controversie, namely the treason charged so justly vponupon D. Bridges his head, he had no leisure to peruse, though he could finde leisure to speake of him twice or thrice and that purposely in his praise. The issue therefore is, that seeing the thing was in controversie, yea and the principall and most materiall thing of all the controuersie: and my L. of Winchester hauing the matter in hand, doth not nor dare not (it seemeth) denie it. Then out of M. Somes Logicke or diuinitie (chuse you whether) I conclude vn…oydablie, that he must needs affirme it: For not to denie, is to affirme, EueryEvery childe can teach him that. Ergo M. Bridges (I am sory for him good soule) must needes be a traytor p. 74by my L. of Winchesters verdict. And I woulde I might liue to see him, eyther to fall out with M. Some for this kinde of reasoning, or els to trie his action of the case against the Bishop.

Likewise where M. Penri sayth, that those that receiue the Cōmunion at the hands of dumb & vnpreaching ministers, doe in a sort approue their sinne. will you see how pretily your D. refutes it with an inflance of Iudas in this sort. The Apostles (saith he) receiued the Lordes supper with Iudas, but did not approoue the 120theft and treason of Iudas, &c. How say you? would you not think he were in jest? & speak your cōscience, was not this right from the corner of the staffe and to very good purpose, the controversie being of receyuing the Sacraments at the hands of dumb ministers? Why alasse, we suppose that Christe our Sauiour was no dumb minister, at whose hands the Apostles receiued it: What hauehave we then to doe with Iudas in this case, vnlesse he had bene minister of it? In deed if the question had bene Whether one may without pollution, communicate in the companie of the wicked, then this example of Iudas, had bin a just laste for that foote: the speech being of the minister that shoulde deliuer it, we may truely vse M. Somes owne wordes against himselfe, and tell him by his patience, that it was euen as neere as Yorke and London.

An other of his pretty outrules is this: It is consessed (saith he) of all famous and learned men, that Gods Church is not necessarily tied in al places & times to one sorme in th'external calling of the ministers, wherein I con him thanke yet, that he hath learned so much discretion as to name non though he speake of all. And therefore if a man should giuegive them al the lye, it were not a point matter, for the disgrace can light one noe man where noe man is named. But for the matter it p. 75selfe (if he speake it of an established church, we feare not to tel him that th'assertion is manifestly false and vnttue, we graunt in deede that at the first plantinge of a Church, when men are newly transformed (as it were) from paganisme to christianitie the Lord worketh extraordinarily, & that in those cases there cannot wel be traced out any certaine prescript rules of direction: But in a settled and established Church it is far otherwise: There we say that the Church is necessarily tied in al places to one essential forme in the external calling of the ministers: I say essential forme, to cut of al cauels and wranglings about any circumstance or ceremontal custome: As if in one Church the calling and election should goe by lifting vp the hand. In an other by throwing vp of capps, in an other by Scrutiny or voices, in an other by one custome, in an other by an other: This seueral guise and fashion of seueral Churches in their elections hindreth noe whit, but that the essential forme remaineth still one, and the same in them al. And if you aske me what that essential forme should be, I answere, The godly and christian fore deliberation, trial, and allowance of the Church & elders, with the assent and approbation of the people: This I say is that essential forme, whereunto al churches in al ages (speking of an established church) are so necessarilie tied in regarde of Gods ordinance, as it is vtterly vnlawfull by any meanes to violate or infringe the same. And this we suppose a meaner man then M. Penri neede not be afraide to defend against 10. D. Somes, or any nonresident in Christendome, nether can we be perswaded that among al those famous learned men he speaks of, there was euer any godlye sinceare professor of the Gospel that did denie it: And even much after this manner, and ful as learnedly as this doth he handle himselfe within 2. pages of the p. 76same place, where after he hath gathered his aduersaries argument thus. All may be capable of the outwarde allowaunce: Ergo. th'outwarde calling of the Church maks not a minister to vsus vnlesse he hauehave the inwarde, he tels him that his Antecedent is a speciall one. And what is his reason? Marke I pray you, and giuegive care for your learning, and then tell me whether an olde D. may not forgett as fast in London, as euer he learned in Cambridge: I trust (saith he) you doe not condemne a prescript Liturgie in the Church of God. If you doe al the reformed Churches dissent from you. Howe thinke you was not his head smitten with a Lethargie that spied nowe a time to speake of a Liturgie, when in a manner he had as just occasion to speake of the Moone. In like sort it is worth marking, what a proper construction he makes of this worde Ministerie, By Ministerie (saith he) I vnderstand the reading of the holy scriptures, the deliuering of the publike prayers, th'administration of the sacraments: That is even as much to say in good english, as by the horse I vnderstand the saddle, or rather by the tree, I vnderstande the apple of the tree, or by Ministerie I vnderstande that which is not indeede the Ministerie, but the execution of the Ministerie. And cannot M. Some see a sensible difference betwixt these 2.? Or is he nowe to learne, that there may be a tree that neuer had apple, and that a man may hauehave a lawful ministerie committed vntounto him, and yet neuer come to anye of these, because he may either dye or by occasion be recalled or depriued by the Church before.

Yet among al his outrules I doe not thinke that his penne hath more squared in any one thing, then in this, that he chargeth his aduersarie to say flatlye, and yet it is but a Flat lye Neither: that the want of a Sermon maketh th'action frustrate, that is, the sacrament p. 77to be no sacrrment, and that a Sermon is simply of th'essence 97of a sacrament. &c. vppon which Imagination or rather dreame of his owne braine, he keepeth greate a doe after his manner, making it one of his solemne chapters to prooue vntounto vsus forsooth, that midnight is not high none, but if the words (as he hath set them downe) be not to be found in all that euer M. Penri hath published, me thinks M. Some should be striken with some remorse, especially when he remembreth that A lying tongue slaieth the soule, and a false witnes pulleth shame and confusion vppon himselfe. But it may be you wil say that though the very words be not there, yet the same very sence must of necessitie be gathered out of that which M. Penri hath written: For doth he not say I pray you, that the substantial forme of consecration, is conteined in the exposition of the holy institution, and th'inuocation of the name of God, all which are necessarily required in th'administration of the sacrrmente? Most true he saith so in deed: I se noe danger why he may not say so againe: for what is there here (if it be rightly examined) that is either blasphemous or injurious to the holy saith that we professe? First he saith not here (if you marke it) that, that the substantial forme or essence of the Sacrament consisteth in th'exposition or inuocation, &c. but that the substā tiall forme of Consecration, as if he should say, there is no true consecration, no substantiall forme of blessing and hallowing of the Sacrament, without exposition of the word, and invocation of the name of God: Which I take to be very sound and inviolable, and therein I referre me to the learned. Nowe whether the elements deliuered be a sacrament without this Consecration, that is, without the opening of the word, & calling on the name of God, that is another question: Albeit I doe not read in the whole Scripture, that there was euer p. 78any sacrament administred without one of these. And if a man should tell M. Some, that Where there is neyther of these, that is, that where there is neyther breaking of the word, nor invocation of the name of God, there is no Sacrament at all: I thinke this might well inough be just…fied. And I would faine knowe of M. Some for my lerning, if a minister lawfully called, should rudely and abruptly come into the congregation, and stepping straight to the Communion table, should without more adoe, deliuer the elementes to the people, onelyonly with these bare wordes: Take, eate, this is my bodie, &c. If he should I saye, so far forget himselfe, as neither to vse prayer nor exposition of the word at al in that action: Whether this were a sacrament or no, I suppose nor. For what is the thing that doth sanctifie the elementes, consecrate and seperate them to that holy vse, but onelyonly The worde and prayer. Take away that, and then are they you knowe, but in the case of our common and ordinary sustenaunce. And M. Some himselfe saith in one place, that The very life of the sacraments dependeth vponupon Gods promises expressed in his 119holy worde. Now if there be no promise, but where the invocation of Gods name is, thē it is cleare, that without it, the thinges deliuered, are but bare and dead elements, because they are not consecrated according ro th'institution. But well you see how M. Some doth herein bring his Ergo about, to prooue out of his adversaties owne words, That the want of a sermon, doth make the action frustrate. Then thus it must bee whether he will or no, if he will make any thing of it.

The exposition of the holy institution, and th'invocation of the name of God, is necessarily required in th'administration of Baptisme.

Ergo, without a sermon, there can be no sacrament. Which (as I cōceiue) is a cōsequent much like to this:

p. 79The examination and ripping vp of a mans own heart, with the arraignement of his conscience, is necessarily required of every one that will present himself at the Lords table:

Ergo without this examination, he receiuce no Sacrament

The lame legge of both the consequents, lyeth in these words, necessarily required: Which if it be taken of that inevitable necessitie, that the want thereof should vtterly destroy the very nature and essence of the thing in question, then indeed it were a good consequent: But vnderstanding necessary in regard of our obedience to the holy ordinaunce and institution of Christ (the breach whereof, is onelyonly a sinne in the doer, and no overthrow to the thing done) In this sence I thinke M. Some will yeelde, that his braue Ergo limpeth and shrinketh in the sinowes vnreasonably. But what will you say, if the man that you reverence so, be taken now and then with a tricke of a false singer? you would be sory for that I am sure: you do not heare me say, that he can iuggle or help a die, I would not hauehave you to take me so. My meaning is onelyonly, that he can for need if he be not watched, slily wipe out a worde or two out of the text for his advantage: and another time peradventure, glide me in a worde or two more then hee shoulde, to make th'evidence a little more pleadable. This you know is a falt, but yet such a falt, as you shall perceiue by M. Some, that a learned man may falt in sometimes if he be not locked vntounto: For where M. Penri sayth thus: We are alreadie receiued into the bosome of the Church, and acknowledged to hauehave the seale of the Covenant, in asmuch as we were once offered and received, &c. See howe your D. controlleth this, in his third page of his rolle of errors. If: his be true which M. Penri saith, th'outward and bare element deliuered by him, which in his owne judgement is no minister, p. 80is the seale of Gods covenant: which is a most absurd heresie. Marke here I say a false finger, for how els coulde the poore Welshman hauehave bene an absurd hereticke? The pithe of the whole matter lying in this word Acknowledged, M. Doctor hath quite left it out: For M. Penri doth not say absolutely, That we hauehave the seale of the covenant, but we are acknowledged to hauehave it And is there not a sensible difference betwixte these two? For it is certaine, that Baptisme of women, neyther is not can be in trueth, the seale of Gods covenaunt: but yet you see (as I hauehave prooued to you before) both by the practize of our Churche, and by the interpretation of my L. of Winchester, that it is plainly acknowledged amongest vsus for the seale of Gods covenant, otherwise it shoulde neuer passe as it doth amongest vsus without any interruption, questioning, controllment, or enquirie. If then there be a plam difference betwixt having, and acknowledged to have, then I pray you do you so much as devise some honest meanes to salue this false finger, for I promise you I cannot.

Furthermore in that point of the magistracy (which M. Penri is soe charged to hauehave handled with very foule and bepitched hands) the very words which M. Doctor would seeme most to make vantage of. vz. deuise of man. I cannot finde in al M. Penries booke, sure I am, they be not to the places quoted, betwixt the pages. 47. and 51. And if they be not in the booke at all (as I beleue they be not) thē by your leaue we charge him once more with a trick of a false singer, in that he hath thrust in more then was in the text. Nowe if you tell me that though the words be not there, yet they are necessarily gathered out of the sence, then I choke him againe with M. D. owne sentence, Non scriptura sed sensus scripturae est heresis, it is not M. penries words p. 81but M. Somes glosse and collection vponupon the woords, that makes this absurd heresie: But your D. granting that S. Peter doth indeede call magistracie A bnmane ordinance, doeth withal assure vsus that th'Apostle did not thereby meane that Magistracie was ordeined and deuised by man: It may be he looks for thanks for this, which though of curtesie we may yeld him, yet you may tel him that our ignorance is noe more releeued by this, then it is by a hundred thinges more in his booke, which we knew before, marry he tels vsus withall: That it is not th'Apostles words but the sence that M. Penry giues them, that is Anabaptistical, in deede we thanke him for this, it is some more good manner 137yet, then is in olde Lockwoode of Sarum, for if he had the matter in handeling, there had bene some danger that th'Apostle woulde hauehave prooued an Anabaptist: Wel nowe th'Apostle hath obteined that fauor to be cleared, howe shal wee doe to cleare M. Penri, whose sence vppon the words M. Some will needs hauehave to be Anabaptistical? First in that he doth neuer say so, but rather the contrary as M. Some himselfe acknoledgeth in these words, you confesse in this place that Magistracie 136is th'ordinance of God, me thinks in equitye this should be a reasonable clearing to him: Nay I say farther that as he he hath noe such words, so there can be no such sence gathered out of his words without violence: In deede if your D. had put but one. A. before, then I would hauehave taken his parte that such a sense might very well hauehave bene gathered of that which M. Penri sets downe: As when he speaks of Cincinatus, Tarquinius, Opinius, Candaules, Gracchus and the rest: A man with halfe an eie may easily see that he speaks not indefinitely of Magistracie, but of a Magistracie in such an age, and such a time, which his owne very words doe so cleare, as thereby mallice it p. 82selfe may blush and be silent: There may (saith he) be 47 48a lawful Magistracie according to the word, whose name & office was neuer heard of before in the worlde, so can there not be a Ministery. &c. here you see plainly hee speaks not of Magistracie indefinitely, but of A Magistracie: As for example, if her Maiestie should erecte nowe a newe kinde of gouerment either at Windesore or at Kingston vppon Thames, (as by her pretogatiue shee may doe if she list,) and cal th'one of them, The Tribunes of Windesore, and th'other The Consulls of Kingston: This k…nde of magistracie in that it was neuer knowne nor hearde of before, may truly without any blemish to the honor of God, be called A deuise of man, and yet Magistracie in general and indefinitely vnderstood, the very immediate ordinance of God prescribed in the word: and this me thinks is so plaine as I cannot beleeue that olde D. Stumbler himselfe, I meane the Prince of all the Stumblers in the worlde, vz. Sir Iohn of Sarum would euer stumble at it. Therfore if in wringing this sence out of his aduersaries words flat contrary to the drift and intent of the writer, he did willingly and of purpose leaue out A setting downe Magistracie indefinitely, in lew of A Mastracie, wee must be so bolde by his leaue, to charge it vponupon his head with the rest, as a tricke of a false finger wheresoeuer he learned it.

An other thing there is in this chapter of M. Somes that for mine owne part I can conceiue noe sence of, namely this: That Magistracy is an ecclesiastical constitution: this I confesse is a mistery to me, and soundes more harsh in mine eares a greate deale, then that which M. Penri is charged with, vz. Deuise of man, which may in a sorte you see be justified, and therefore I would ride a good way I tell you, to heare this matter soundly and substantially prooued: I heare indeede p. 83a heauy sentence, pronounced on all those that shall dare to denie it to be an Ecclesiastical constitutiō, vz. That is a very grosse & Anbaptistical error, but this doeth neither fright vsus nor satisfie vsus: For hauing sene a number of the like thunderclapps before, and little raine falling after them, but onelyonly a bare ratling in the air, we hauehave certainly determined with our selues that they shall neuer fright vsus more if there come a hundreth of them, in the meane time if you aske mee what I thinke of Magistracie, I answere freely: That it is the holy ordinance of God prescribed in the worde, for th'vse and comfort of man, & is therefore called of the Apostle, a humane ordinance, in that his proper obiect & office is to deale in humane things: And will not all this serue to cleare a man from Anabaptistrie, but he must confesse withal, that it is an Ecclesiasticall constitution? This goeth hard, to binde vsus to entertaine a stranger vponupon so small acquaintance: Good intreat your D. to resolue vsus and instruct vsus first, & then vponupon our contumacie if neede be, to proceed to sentence, and so to pronounce vsus Anabaptists. In other needles points I remēber your D. is but to vnreasonable ful of his authorities, Calvin, Beza, P. Martyr, Famous Churches, & I know not who, in somuch that sometimes he leaues no roome almost either for grounded reason, or scripture, there is such a presse of them: yea, and in one place he tels M. Penri and that aloude, All the learned agree with me, and dissent from you: And will all these his learned friends forsake him now trow ye, when he hath most need of them? Surely I beleeue they will if they be well examined: For I do not thinke that he can for his life bring out that man, if he be worth whisteling, I meane any good, sound, and learned author, either olde or new, that he may honestly muster with himselfe in this point, to call Magistracie (as he doth) p. 84by the name of Ecclesiasticall constitution: Therefore as he saith by M. Penri, so we thinke we may justly say by him, that in this case he may worthely walke iole by iole with H. N. indeed. But his proofes if you mark them, are even as pregnant as the matter it self. I must needs say they be sure onsal, for they are fetched out of the scripture the most of them, as you may see by these: By me kings raigne (saith he) Prouerb. 8. Thou couldest hauehave no power at al against mee, vnlesse it were giuen thee from aboue, saith Christ our Sauiour to Pilate, Iohn. 19. There is no power but of God, whosoeuer therefore resisteth power, resisteth the ordinance of God, Rom. 13. more he laieth downe an other reason drawn from the reuerence that is imprinted by almightye God in the harts of subiects, At quorsum haec? matty to prooue vntounto vsus (as I coniecture that Douer Castle stands where it did the last yeare,) or els as M. Some saith, that midnight is not high noone: By this you may 187see that when a naile is knocked fast in a wheele, turne the wheele neuer so many times about, the naile will be stil where it was: Even so it is in this case with M. Some, he turnes and turnes, and it may be sweates in turning, and yet when he hath don, he leaues the naile sticking where it was: For what hath he woon I pray you by al this? Forsooth That Magistracie is the ordinance of God: And where is that Muscouite that doth donie it? Proude Penri you see doth grant it, The Scismatical Catabaptist doth graunt it, he that hath breched so mary popish, blasphemous, & Anabaptisticall fansies, this man doth graunt it by M. Somes owne confession: And could he then be so jellous to suspect any man els? Nowe sure your D. hath a maruelous suspitious head, wel for his farther satisfaction, and to ease him of som paines hereafter, I wil here giuegive him my fre warrant vnderunder my hand to cry Crusisige against p. 85him that should denie it, and therefore let him neuer drawe weapon more in the defence of that assertion. that Magistracie is the ordinance of God prescribed in the worde, for it yeelded him without blowes: But in the meane season, what is become of Ecclesiastical constitution? I heare nothing of that gentlewoman al this while: Is shee fled ouer with the Iesuites? If shee be, it were good to fetch her againe by proclamation, lest she die in exile: For I can tell you this proper Enthimem will neuer fetch her againe while the worlde stands: It is an ordinance of God prescribed in the word, Ergo. it is an ecclesiasticall constitution. This I say will be founde to weake though all the Doct. of Sorbona shoulde set their hands to it: For is there not a flatte opposition betwixt Ciuill and Ecclesiastical; I take it there is, and I am sure I hauehave heard learned men say so. And is not Ciuil iurisdiction an ordinance of God prescribed in the word? me thinks it should, why then by this newe founde consequent, we shall hauehave short lye a newe vniuersitie nosgay, vz. that ciuil iurisdiction is an Ecclesiastical constitution, and that were good time but small reason: Euen so Warre, Phisicke, The inheritance of men, and a number of things more would be found to be Ecclesiasticall constitutions, because they are all the ordinance of God prescribed in the worde. And if this will not hold water, then I dare avow your D. hath not any thing els, in that his 13. chapter more then his bare word (which we are now glutted with) to warrant that outlandish assertion of his: That Magistracie is an Ecclesiasticall constitution, &c. Moreouer, if in speaking of the ministery of the New Testament, that be a true proposition, that Sola ecclesia vocat, The Church onelyonly calleth, as I hauehave heard it aveared by learned men, that the Lord doth not now call any more extraordinarily from heuen as in times past, but p. 86hath left that to be done Per suffragia ecclesiae tantum, onelyonly by the voyce and allowance of the Church: if I say this be sounde, and will abide the fire (as I verily thinke it will) then marke what I saye to you: if your D. with al his lerning, be not taken in as foule, grosse, and more palpable absurditie then ever th'ignoraunt Welshman was, ile loose my credit, and that were pitie you know, that so proper a man as I shoulde loose his credite. But will you see howe vnresistably I can bring this geare about? then lay downe your booke a while and giuegive eare.