Some Laid Open in his Colors, Text (1 of 3)

Some Laid Open in his Colors · Text (1 of 3)

p. 1M. Some laid open in his coulers.

BEe it so, sithence you will needs hauehave it so, prouided that you be not ouerhastie to communicate it, for that may breed danger to me, and no great good to your selfe. If it be the same M. Some, that read somtime a Lecture in my L. of Leicesters house, then is he quite new founded since I saw him, and his spirit it should seeme, strangely vapored vpward into some loftier climate thē was vsual with him in those daies, you can remember I am sure, when he was taken for an other manner of man of a soft constitution, and a simple harted man, as most of his coate within the land. Albeit that euen then when he gaue this glamse of sinceritie and mildnes, there were some you knowe that stood in contention with vsus about him, in that he made no bones (as they then saide) to be adaylie nonresident from his charge, and withal closely and slily to glut downe a pretty prebend or 2. to help his disgestion, which as you and I were then hardly drawen to beleeue, thinking all this to be but injuriously fathered vppon him, so yet if that should be true as the knight giueth out, that my L. of Leycester shold vse any such speeches of him, That he feared be would prooue but an ambitious foole when al was don. Remembring what hath fallen out since, I promise you it was shrewdly aymed of my Lord, and we must needs yeld he had a notable eie, that could in so smoth a countenance, and so close a carriage of a man, spie out neuerthelesse the cloude of ambition afar of: it was not for nought it should seem, that he was so long emplojed by her maiestie in affaires of State.

But it is no reason you would say, that eueryevery thing should be measured after the partiall and passionate p. 2judgment of men howe greate soeuer they be: very true, and therefore to cleare the suspition, and to wipe away al that might seeme through prejudice in any sort to bleamish the man, let your D. hardly speake for himselfe, for index animi sermo, or as he him selfe saith, ex vnguibus leonem, of th'abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh, and these (if I be not deceiued,) you shal finde to be his owne words, which som think had bin fitter forfytie works against the landing of the Spanyards, then for grounded reasons and argumēts to decide a controuersie by. But I wil not brand them with any cole of mine, let them weigh as they wil in the judgment of the wise, I will neither peize downe the ballance at th'one end, nor lighten it at th'other: only because you presse me to tel you what I thinke, I will first take some paines to drawe you a callender of his owne speeches as I finde them scattered in his book, and so leaue the judgment to your selfe: nay as master Doct. telleth the ignorant welchman, I wil not in this case refuse the judgment of his owne disciples, if they hauehave any dram of equitie in them, so that they remember to follow their masters rule, and bring with them iudicium non preiudicium, harken then I pray you a while, to the sound of this learned trumpet, and tel me your opinion when wee meete.

First in the very title of his booke, he beginneth thus. If the bare outside be so glittered, what may we thinke of the pearles within? A refutation of many anabaptisticall, blasphemous, and popish absurdities touching Magistracie, Ministery, Church, Scripture, and Baptisme: And then he goeth on very sweetly thus.

M. Penri (saith he) is very ignoraunt, and his treatise very sillie & corrupt stuffe: His booke is a fardle of grose errors: none account of it but such as are of the fantasticall p. 3crue, men extremely both proud and ignorant: his inconstancie proceedes of a vaine humor, which as a whirlwinde doth strangely carye and ouercarie him: his grosse errors: his absurd, anabaptisticall and blasphemous fansies. I dare be bold to say, that is the spiders webb be good cloath, and the cockatrice eggs holsome meate, then such points as I resute in this treatise, are very excelent diuinitie. His speach is very grosse: his reasons are most absurd and childish. This is intollerable sawcines: Inscitia audax: None so bold as blind bayard. This is a grosse and popish error, a popish collection, a most absurde heresie: your arreast is like Goliabs curse. M. PENRI hath troubled heuen, church, commonwelth & himself. Heauen, for he is sawcie with God himselfe: Churche, for in steade of treasure, he hath offered it very dangerous poyson. Common wealth, for he hath vndermined the chaire of the Magistrate, I hope such conies will be looked vntounto. Himselfe, for he hath broached many proud, blasphemous, and anabaptisticall fansies. The marke that M. PENRI leuels at, is I feare me, to shake handes with the anabaptisticall recusants, some part of his writings looke shrewdly that way. I make very mean account as yet of your judgment: you hauehave broached grosse errors: thanke yourself for sowing such giddie fansies: you are too imperiall. If my reasons were sutable to your answers, they were verie wofull: your tongue cannot disgrace me, your tongue is no sclander. Sus Mineruam: your dealing with me, is neither honest nor schoolelike: if you see not this, you are starke blind. The wrangling spirits are the more for your absurd writings: They which are so forward in iangling of these points, are either of your humor, which is very bad, or Anabaptisticall recusants which is somewhat worse.

Will you any more of this? It is you see but a myrie tracke that I tread in, and yet the farther one wades, the more quicke sandes and quauemires he is like to p. 4finde: for thus your doctor goeth on.

I am sorie for your heauinesse: I detest your anabaptisticall fancies: your gift in answering is very rare: you make wash way of the weightiest arguments: you bewray intollerable both pride and ignorance: you are one of the strangest diuines that euer I heard of, very ignorant, very bold, very absurd: your iudgment is not worth a rush: your dealing with me is most absurd: you hauehave grossely abused me: you are neere driuen when you vse such beggerly shifts to bumbaste your treatise: Honest matrons vse no paintings, but harlots doe: grosse errors hauehave neede of suche vermiliom: the vaile of mallice did hinder your sight: This odious instance doth best become your spirit: It is sutable to the rest of your writings, most absurde and childish: your absurdities are many and grosse: if you recant not your anabaptisticall errors, I will account very basely of you. The name of Maiestie is to costly a garment for so lepprous a bodie as your treatise is: It is the maner of all sectaries to vse lofly & maiestical words, that their ignorant followers may commend them aboue the skies. My answere is, that you are a wicked slanderer: such dealing is an argument of a vile nature, and a wrangling spiryt: if I were of your humor, I could chase and pursue you hotely for your inconstancie and error. In your treatise you hauehave sowne grosse errors thicke & threfold. Are not your disciples most vnhappy that depend one you as one an other Pope? This bewraieth your grosse ignorance: if my reasons were as weake as your sensles answers, they were strange stuffe: what meane Scholler, what russet coat in the country would shape such an answere? your wittes I thinke were a woolgathering: this answeere I thinke came out of Barbarie, I hope you are ashamed of it by this time: did euer any student deale so childishly? I see by his answeres what a deepe clark he is, your weightie obiections hauehave neither succum nor sanguinē: they hauehave p. 5no pith in them, they are lighter then any feather, and bewray your ignorance: your lusty speches cannot daunt me: it is but a visor. I hauehave bin long acquainted with the boisterous speches of such ignorant and bold companions as you are. salis pro imperio, you are by your leaue a litle to Lordly: had I nothing to thinke of but your absurd fansies: you imagin very basely of me: I doe but touch this grosse and blasphemous paradox of yours: what base ware you commend vntounto vsus for excellent diuinitie?

Howe think you? Wil you any more yet? Or are you not halfe weary of reading? Well I hope nowe if my hands doe happen to smell any thing vnsauorly, you wil of curtesie beare with me, because you see I hauehave bin al this while gathering of weedes. But alasse is this all thinke you? No assure your selfe, there is yet a vile deale of such behinde, for these (I take it) are of the same forge:

He that would saile after your compasse for diuinitie matters, should proue as giddy as a goose (saith your doctor:) you hauehave euil lucke: you are an vnpleasant musition: you hauehave kept strange coiles: you lay on load, but it is fulmen non tonitru, black cloudes but no raine: I praye God to keepe the people of the land, from such blinde guides as the ignorant sorte are, & from such shamelesse & phantastical guides as you master Penry are: if you will deale plainly neuer piddle any longer, goe through stitch with al. Seing you are ouer shooes, aduenture ouer bootes to confute Caluin, giuegive th'onset, if you faile, you shall loose no credit of learning, for you neuer had any as yet. Qui semel vericundiae limites, &c. you knowe the rest &c. M. Peurye is in his ruffe. His pride and ignorance appeare in their coulers: if you be not void of grace be sory and ashamed of your blasphemous lewdnes: you hauehave vsed th' Apostle as Cacus did Hercules oxen. Did any student euer broth such sluffe as this? Many Carrmen p. 6in London can make better arguments: your writing hauehave nether grace nor salt: your absurd collections are euidences of your spirit: vnskilful preachers are your bulwarks and blockhouses to support your fancies: you hauehave shotte but many scores wide: you are one of the strangest turners that euer I knewe: you hauehave turned out such a deale of grosse diuiuitie vppon me and others, that we are weary & you may be ashamed of it: you would neuer I thinke hauehave vented such motley stuffe as this, if you had thought it would hauehave bene looked on. Manye learned condemne your treatise for a foolish and santastical bable: you are so sawey with the principal of the religion, in this noble land. I make more accoumpt I tel you of one Caluin then of a thousand Penries: you hauehave a special guist in varying a phrase, for that you shal bear the bell and the claper to: it is a blinde and beggerly shist: your arguments are Scopae dissolutae, very loose ware & slenderly trussed together: more he tels master Penry, that there is no reason he should hauehave such libertie of printing as he, for saith he, you broach and Print grosse errors & anabaptisticall fansies: so doe not I: you refused to offer & submit your writings, to the view & alowance of the Magistrate: so doe not I: you woulde hauehave me procure your judicial hearing, &c. your request is not equal. Nec te noui nec vbi sis. Speake for your selfe in Gods name: so will I. If you will reuoke your error & heresies, otherwise I will not open my lippes for any such as you are. Likewise in the same place, Master Penty hauing shewed that he did reuerence him for his guifes, is thus cut short, and vncurteously rewarded for his paines. Be sory saith he for your selfe. Detest your fansies, your reuerence I make verie mean account of: Gods truth is as deare to me as to you. I hope it hath had & shall hauehave more defence by me then by you, there is som reson it should. And afterwards he cōmeth vppon him thus: you are not (saith he) Master p. 7of the sentences as Peter Lambarde was: if you were, the sound diuinitie that is taught in Cambridge & Oxforde should be cried downe: and your strange fansies should be ruled cases. The refutation of your blasphemus, Anabaptistical, popish, & proud errors by me, is I am sure a performance of a special duty to almighty God, my Prince, and this Church. Greate words shall not fraie me: if your ignorant disciples wil stil magnifie you, it shal not be strange to me, they doe but their kinde: you vse goodly words sometimes, but your proude malice wil appeare, it cannot be hidden: your heretical absurdities in your treatise, & your shamelesse dealing with our Magistrates doe crie aloud, &c. I praie God with all my hart, to keepe me & all such as louelove religion from such as you and the fantastical sort are: you are strange cattell: you hope that I will graunt you the cause, a vain hope, for I think scorne to be one of ignorant Penries disciples, that is a proude and ignorant Anababtist. If you will hauehave anie thing at my hands you must get it by force of argument. If you thinke I wil come of otherwise, you are in a wrong box, for I entend not to be at your whystle: yea I require and charge you in the name of God, (if you be not voide of grace) that you consesse your ignorance and detest your errors, &c. Thus hauehave you my resolution, and yet you are no conqueror as Coesar was, nor I ouerthrowne as Pompei was: if your arguments were as tidie, as your speeches are consident, there were no dealing with you: I perceiue the greatest barkers are not the forest byters: Blinde Bartimeus could hauehave espied this: you may command and controlle, and deale with others as Strato did, that was king ouer beasts, &c.

How now if a man may aske you, are you not neere cloyed by this? What thinke you nowe of my L. of Leycester his prophesie? Was not the figure well sett that hit so right of the mans constitution? Yet is this p. 8the man you see, that can for all this tel his aduersary and that ful solemly, that the best conqueast he can hauehave is, to ouercome his pride by humility, yea and more, tel him plainly that he liketh better Humile peccatum, quam superbam innocentiam: he that wil so often and so peremptorily lay haughtines and pride to an other man, had he not neede thinke you to be a litle clearer from that infection himselfe, then your doctor sheweth him selfe to be? But it may be he will mend the matter in some other places of his booke, and it is odds he wil not alwaies be in this key: like enough, and therefore let him speake once againe for himselfe. About his. 77. page as I take it, where M. Penri doth seeme to say, that we can hardly hauehave any sealed assurance in our harts, that we receaue any sacrament at the dumbe ministers hands, because wee hauehave no such promise of the Lord, and our assurance must alwaies be grounded vponupon the promises of God, marke I pray you howe M. Some refuteth this:

You are at warre (saith he) with your selfe: you wordes agree like harpe and harrow: your disciples are sit vessels to receiue anie liquor of you, but men of learning and wisdome are otherwise affected: your dealing is absurde and dangerous, absurd for it is void of truth, dangerous for it would breed confusion. The Magistrates thanks be to god, neither do nor will suffer this bad course of yours: if they should, sancies would as weedes grow too fast, and this noble land should receiue more hurt thē your head is worth: I doubt not of their godlie wisedome: The miserable estate of Germanie heretofore by reason of sectaries, may and will awaken them: If you be restrained from your grosse errors, as some are verie iustlye, you must not crie, persecution persecution, your note must be, Poena persidiae, that is, that you are iustly met with, otherwise you sing out of tune. And not long after this, he payeth him p. 9againe with a syllogisme or two in the same figure. I am perswaded, that if you be not well conjured by the magistrate, you will prooue a strange bodie: you are far gone alreadie, strange fansies hauehave almost consumed you: The Magistrates discipline is the fittest medicine for you: if that will not recouer you, your disease is desperate. Yea & now he hath said it, he will stand to it, he meanes not you shall see him blush at the matter: For page 155. he addeth: If either M. Penrie, or anie of his santasticall crue, shall thinke much of my speach, I do not passe: I confesse freelie, that sharpe words are not sufficient plaisters for such proud sores: I hope the magistrate will consider further of him and such as he is. Duro nodo, durus cuneus, &c. that is, a wedge of iron is fittest for knottie wood. Besides al this, he is vp with blasphemous against him, I thinke aboue a dozen times, and in that good Christian moode of his, it pleaseth him full sweetly, to call M. Penri, an hereticall Catabaptist: and of his charitie, to liken and compare him to Demetrius the siluer Smith: to Alexander the Copper smith: to the wicked women in the 13. of Ezekiel: to the gracelesse people in the time of Esai, Ieremie and Micheas: To wicked Amaziah in Ieroboams court: To Athalia that wicked trayteresse: To harlots that paint themselues: To Neuius the clamorous companion: To Thrasilaus the frantike man: To the monstrous sonne, that cudgelled his father: To Nestorias the heretik: To Photinus a grosse heretike: To Aetius a pestilent heretik: To the Donatists, the Papists, the Pelagians, and the Anabaptists: To Campion: To Goliab: To Simon Magus: To Iulian the Apostata: To murdering Ioab: To that bloody beast Ismael, that shedd teares, but they were Crocodiles teares: and last of all, to make vp the mouth of all, to that honest man Iudas that betrayed Christ. And like inough, if he could hauehave founde out p. 10any viler image, to hauehave drawne vsus his portraiture by, it should not hauehave bene left out of this wor…hy rolle: The best is, himselfe tels vsus, that the greatest barkers, are not the sorest byters. Therfore our hope is, M. Some will do little hurt with his teeth, he is so vnreasonable a barker.

Of al which, what other confutation should a wise man make thē vah quam sordide: quis suror que rabia? Sure if your doctor had conceiled his name, and sett only these 3. letters R. S. D. in the forehead of his booke, his frends would rather hauehave taken it for Roger Salter Drouer: then for Robert Some Doctor: for they would neuer hauehave suspected that any such raggs as these should hauehave fallen from a man of that grauitie, so rich in guifts and graces as they take M. Some to bee: why, is this your manner of canuasing of Controuersies in CAMBRIDGE? or is it your custome nowe a daies, to drawe the most of your arguments à sustibus & sascibus, à vinculis & carceribus Doe you remember howe you were woont to be girding at me for our Oxforde Doctors, as D. Kennall, D. Barnard &c. and to tell me that Barnardus non videt omnia, with many such like glicks? In requitall whereof, if I should nowe lay D. Bridges, and D. Some in your dish, I thinke your aduantage woulde not be great, Wel howsoeuer you may out go vsus in other respects, I hope in one regard, you will not bee ouerhasty to compare with vsus: that is, in Modesty and Mildenesse of spirit. For to goe no farther, shewe me if you can, a Cambridge man that is a match to M. Reynolds, I meane not in learning but in mildenesse: or shewe me an Oxforde man that is a match to M. Some, I meane not in learning but in bitternesse. Surely I am perswaded (I speake it not I protest of any partial affection) that that one worke alone of D. Reinolds against p. 11Harte, that wretched Iesuite, may therein be as a patterne and glasse to your whole vniuersitie while the world standeth. I doubt not but you hauehave reade it, and then you cannot but knowe, against what kinde of person he dealeth in that conference, namely against one alredy atteinted and conuicted of treason, in him against al such as were sworne en…mies to our religion and state, such as had long thirsted for the destruction of her maiestie, and th'ouerthrowe of God his church, and viler men you knowe, there could not lightly be vnderunder the sunne. If any people in the world shoulde mooue a man to glaunce out into passion, or his pen to impacience, it were like enough to these. And yet I beleeue (prie as narrowly as you can,) you shal hardly pike out any one bitter, evenimed or dispiteful sentence brought in of purpose, only to wound and disgrace his aduetsarie in the whole booke. See then the difference of spirits: your doctor dealeth not with any such manner of man I trowe: for M. Penri, howe vnlearned soeuer he be, (as M. Some maketh him worse then a drudge and a turnespit in al maner of knowledg) or howsoeuer he may vary from others in judgment, is thought yet of those that knowe him to be very honest and godly of life, and I hauehave heard that he is one that vsually haunteth the holy excersises of religion, walking in al peaceable obedience to God and her maiestie, and that he hath bin a meanes to reclaime and cal back some that for want of a preaching minnistery, were euen at the brinke to decline to Brownisme: this I hauehave heard, howsoeuer it be, if you hauehave reade his writings, I appeale to your owne hart, whether you thinke him the childe of God or no, being in the judgment of some, a thing vnpossible that any man should write as he writeth, vnlesse hee were endewed with some good measure of Gods spirit, p. 12if it be so, then that he be the childe of God, and that he be wide in this point, (as for mine owne parte I wil not trust him that neuer held error,) how happy had it bene for him, if he had had M. Reinolds his aduersarie in liew of M, Some, of whome he might happen hauehave learned more and bene disgraced lesse. For he that dealeth so mildely with an ennemie, howe christianly thinke you would he hauehave intreated a brother: whie alasse, the question being, Whether we may be assured to receiue a sacrament at the dumbe ministers hands, is it not possible for a christian in humblenesse to handle this question, vnlesse he runne to Vulcan the blacksmith for weapons, or bring Hercules furens vponupon the stage, as M. Some doth, setting out his aduersarie in the vilest and most deformed features that he can deuise? and yet he knowes him not neither. Nowe where it pleaseth him to saye, that M. PENRI hath just as many learned of his side, as H. N. the prince of the Familie of LoueLove: as I woulde not wish M. D. to be therein ouer hastie to sweare, so yet if it were so, he knows that that ouer-worne argument drawne onelyonly from the multitude, can be no stronger for him, then it hath bene heretofore for the papists. But it shoulde fall out nowe (this being a point that hath not beene heretofore greatly looked into) that there should be any more of M. PENRIES minde hereafter, I doe not see but that M. Some may in a sort thanke himselfe for it, and that among many other reasons, this may very well be one, that your Doctor hath caried himselfe so loosely and distemperedly in the cause, seeking rather to plague the man, then to cleare the matter. For when men (desirous euen in simplicitie of heart to learne the trueth) shall sensiblye perceaue that so famous and learned aman as M. Some reputeth him selfe to bee, litle inferiour in aunciencie, (as some p. 13thinke) M. Whitguist, can none otherwise assaile or defend the cause, then by houlding (as it were) a naked dagger in hand, striuing by all meanes to drawe bloude of his aduersarie, and crying out aloude on the Magestrate, the Magestrate, as if he had solde his logicke to become a jorney man in the shambles: will not this thinke you bring many into a mammering, and make them doubt of that they neuer doubted of? And yet what wil you say if after al this rage & choller, he be so kind harted to grant M. Penri the cause? Surely I am deceaued else, and therefore I pray you tel me your judgment. This among others is one of of M. Penries arguments.

1 EueryEvery ministery of the New Testament, is a preaching ministerie:

2 But the ministerie of our Readers, is not a preaching ministerie: Ergo.

To the maior or first proposition M. D. saith thus: If you meane (as I thinke you doe,) every ministery of the word in the newe Testament I dissent not from you: So that he graunts the maior you see. To the minor or second proposition he saith flatly thus. No man doubteth 185of this vnlesse he be voide of common sense: And yet there are as learned as M. Some, that dissenting from M. Penri in the point hauehave denied the minor, aleaging that though the persons them selues could not preach, yet their ministery & Function wherevnto they were called, might iustlie he saide to be a preaching ministerie. But I hope these men (howe lerned soeuer) wil henceforth reuerse their judgment, in that M. Some hath branded them al with this marke, that they are void of common sence. Thus you see howe easilie a wise man may overshut him selfe when he is in his ruffe, and therefore it is most rrue as one saide once. That a pacient minde discerneth aright, but a passionate hart seldome p. 14seeth the trueth: here you see your learned doctor hath granted the poore ignorant Welchman, both the maior and the minor, so that I see no shift in the worlde, but only M. Bridgis his shift, that is to deny the conclusion.

Well (howsoeuer in discretion or otherwise, in a kind of conceitednesse, he may happely overshut him selfe) you tel me that questionlesse he is learned: It may be so, neither wil I say against it: I knowe there may be wine enough in the seller, when there is non in the cuppe, and it may bee that M. Some in this encoumpter against M. Penri, did chuse rather to look vp his learning against the rising of some billowe or tempest, then to stand powring it out against so weak an aduersarie, whom his conceite might casely ennough be ouerthrowne with a blast of words: But the thing we stand vponupon is this, that howe learned soeuer he be, he hath shewed litle of it in this treatise. And that if those worthy men (whome in hart I reuerence, and whose guises I admire) M. Fulke and M. Whitaker I meane, had acquited them selues noe better against their seueral aduersaries, then M. Some hath done against his, your famous vniuersitie that you boast of, had bene like enough to hauehave receiued a scarre in the face long ere this, and therefore let your D. ruffle it neuer so much in bigge words and countenances, yet I can tel you, if he releeue vsus not better in his next supply then he hath done hithertoe, (be he as lerned as he wil) we Oxforde men shal thinke that M. Penri hath a greate dealo more cause to feare th'Archb. his purseuant, then your D. penne. For what call you lerning in this age? I would you would your selfe take some paines to draw an Analisis of your Doct. booke and then tel me whether we judge amisse. For mine owne parte I confesse to you I hauehave viewed it and reuiewed p. 15it, and I finde very litle in it, but that which may easily be drawen to one of these 4: heads.

The 4. principall heades or common places of M. Somes book

1 Bitter and spightful speaches, to bring his aduersarie into danger.

2 Bare and naked assertions, as if it were sufficient that himselfe doth say so.

3 Needlesse positions that few or none euer doubted of.

4 The bare authoritie and Judgement of men without ground.

In these, with the begging of the question, and the praising of himselfe, lieth the sum of his whole booke, I beleeue, I say, you cannot bringe me many thinges out of his treatise, but it may easily be referred to on of these. And these you knowe be noe such fortresses but that they may easily be battered and laide flatt to th'earth by a weker Cannon then euer M. Penri shote in his life. By the way I pray you remember, that I doe not in any sorte take exceptions to M. Somes learning in general, that is, to that knowledge which he fansieth to be in him selfe, I meddle not with that: onelyonly to the learning which it hath pleased him to giuegive vsus a tast of in this booke, this is the thing that I thinke a very meane Scholler may justly complaine of without danger. And I am verely perswaded, (I beare soe much reuerence to the man) that if it were his doing, he wrote it altogether without studie, as it were vponupon a spleene, or in hast as he was riding to Lambeth. Nowe for the first point which is his bitter & overpassionate speaches, I thinke you hauehave heard inough already, p. 16for no longer a treatise then that is, I dare say you thinke it was enough euea of conscience. For the second, vz. his autos ephe, that is his bare and peremptory assertions, if you finde that in any eight penny booke of some 40. leaues or there abouts, (for I think of it selfe it be not much bigger) your D. hath cloyed our eares with aboue 400. of those speches, without Master Some hath in his book, aboue 400. naked assertions.either sappe or salt in them, will you not thinke it strange? To tel you the very truth, I hauehave taken some paines to reckon them lease by leafe, and I finde them as I tel you aboue 400. much after the nature & complection of these: you are not ready: you are to seeke in the principles of diuinity: you knowe not your ignorance: your speaches are very idle: it is noe greate matter what you say: your bolt is soone shotte, your water is very shallowe: your eies are not matches, such trisles are toe base for your greate spirits: your conclusion is nothing else but an. Anabaptistical florish: your argument is very nought & fancie: your argument is as weake as a staffe of reede: your argument is as strong as a roppe of sand, eueryevery childe may see the weakenesse of it, but I must be content to put it vp, it is such ware as you hauehave. He that wanteth woode must burne turse: your writings are like the winde. This beate of yours is like a blaze of thornes, it will last but a while: your cause is nought: your armor is not of proofe: your diuinitie is as a lowe ebbe: your arguments are pitiful: your answeres are sily, &c. And if I should goe one I thinke I shoulde tyre you: I hope you will witnesse with me, though there may be some little eloquence, yet there is noe greate learninge, Logicke, or diuinitie in this. It is sure, but the good luck that some men hauehave ouer others, for if poore M. Penri had written thus, he should hauehave bene chronicled I warrant you, for a cobling welchman while he had liued.

For the thirde Piller of M. Doctors booke, that is p. 17needelesse positions whereof there is smale controuersie, I thinke I shal not neede to wander farr to finde your presidents, for M. Some himselfe in the beginning of both his bookes, doth lay them downe to vsus in a role: it were to no vse and a mere spending of time to runn through them all, and therefore I will onelyonly recorde some fewe of them for a tast of the rest.

A godly prince (saith he) may and ought to compell his subiects (if any refuse) to th'externall seruice of God.

This being a matter so notably & throughlie handeled alreadie by M. Fulke, and M. Wyborne against Howlet, that almost there cannot any thing be added to that which they hauehave sett downe, I muse your D. would be at cost to print vsus a newe Almanacke of the last yeare, I doe not knowe of any that professe the holy religion of God in soundenesse, and sinceritie, that will denie this. And therefore I dare say for M. Penri, that he wil willingly with hart and hande subscribe to it, yea and I thinke he will if neede be, adde one clauze more to it for the farther strengthening, and confirmation of the princes authoritie, vz. That the same Prince that hath power de jure to doe this, ought also to compel every preaching minister to be ordinarily resident on his charge: And if that were put in execution, I thinke M. Some and some others, should not be suffered to roue and range vp and downe as they doe, neglecting theire charges, and breathinge after chaplainship, promotions, and I knowe not what wel, after this he telleth vsus forsooth: That able teachers ought to be prouided for the Churches, soe much as can be: for the furtherance whereof (if we may beleue his worde) him selfe hath bene a very earnest & humble suppliant both by writinge and speach, yea and he hath receiued very comfortable answere of very greate 54.& honorable personages, &c. and is not that wel? Therfore p. 18ye hotspirited men wheresoeuer you be, ye may nowe sit downe and surcease your suites and supplications to her maiestie, and the parliament, for you see M. Some hath dealt in it, and hath receued a comfortable and honorable answere. Nay farther he is not afraide to tel vsus. That the teachers of religion must hauehave maintenance. That God blesseth those kingdomes with peace which promote the Gospel. That the church of England is the visible Church of Christ. That magistracie is M. Somes Booke casesGods ordinance. That the reading of the holy Scriptures doeth edifie. That the scripture is of credit it selfe. That a sermon is not of th'essence of a sacrament. That they whiche are once baptized, must not be rebaptized, &c. Theseyou see be good sure pointes all, but I dare say you think there be non of them very waighty Schole points for all that. For mine owne parte I would bee loath I tel you, to be opponent in any one of them, for I feare my braine could scarse deuise any probable Sylogisme to shake or batter them with. Nay though I confesse my selfe to be one of the porest haglers that euer our vniuersitie breade, yet I durst by Gods assistance defend any on of these against a 100. D. Somes, if it were possible to hauehave so many in a land. And I tel you true, when I first ranne ouer these your D. deepe misteries, I thought certainly I had bene at one of M. Deane of Westminster his sermons, because he good soule, seldome handeleth any controuersies, but tels the people in good sound english: That vertue is good, and vice is euil. And that me thinks I durst defend my selfe (if neede were,) aswel as any of the rest of M. Somes authenticall principles.

But you shal see he will goe deeper then thus. For as he hath taken paines (wee thanke him,) to sett vsus downe a proper short Catechisine in the ende of his booke, to proue to M Penries face, That the regenerate p. 19cannot fulfill the law of god: so you shall perceiue that when occasion serues, he will not spare him no more then another man, were he better then he is, & therefore he feares not to tell him, and that roundly to: If you denie (saith he) that the scriptures read by vnpreaching ministers do edifie in any sort, you speake blasphemously: yea and to the same effect in another place, he boldly layeth before vsus, certaine vncontrollable oracles, but yet such as we hauehave heard talke of before: He that disliketh (saith he) the reading of holy scriptures is a Swink fieldian heretike: He that mistiketh the administration of the sacraments is a Massalian heretike: He 184. Mast. Sines booke cases.that misliketh th'invocation of our gratious god, is a filthie Athiest. Cocksure, your Dan…y lay his life on it, and twentie to one, that th'ignorant Welshman, with all the fantasticall crue, will subscribe to this without racking or imprisonment. For these be called questions without controuersie. Alasse, that reading doth aedifie, considering what a great auncient M. Some is, might very well, for any thing we see, have bene left to one of his Iunior pupils to hauehave declaimed in, because it was neuer yet, our happs to meete with that man (if he were a scholler) that doubted of it. In deed if he had laid downe the question thus, Whether bare and simple reading be any part of the ministers office, this peraduenture might hauehave bred a demur euen among the learned: otherwise, that a minister may read, and by that his reading, some aedification may arise, as also that he may sing, or doe some other good thinges joyntly with the congregation, we make no question: But when he hath read or song, and done all this, then the question is: whether he hauehave done any thing that is peculiarly annexed, or appropriate to his office, more then to another man: For we suppose that the office of a minister, standeth onelyonly in these 3, Preaching, p. 20Prayer, Sacraments. I speake not here of discipline, but onelyonly of doctrine. I knowe verye well, that there are many lawfull and commendable preparations or circumstances, before a man come to th'execution of his office, which cannot for all that, rightly be called anye part of the office it self. As for example, a Iudge may ride, may walk, may heare a sermon, may confer with the gentlemen & Iustices, may sit downe on the bench, yea & he ought in wisdom (as occasion serues) to doe al these, yet neuerthelesse the very knot & execution of his office consisteth in non of al these, but only in hearing and determining, for al the rest he might aswel hauehave done before he was a judge. Euen so we doubt not, but that a minister may walke, may sit, may conferre with his parishioners, may distribute to the poore, may sing, may reade the Scriptures, either priuately or publikely (yea and al these in their time & place with a good conscience, but yet al this while (say we) he is not come to the very marowe and execution of his office, til he come, To deuide the woorde aright: &c. because all the rest, he might wel enough hauehave done before he was a minister. For if you should aske me now, by what thing a christian man is singled out from a meere natural man, I cannot well answere you by his speach, because that you know, is incident to al men by nature, therefore I must answere you, by the holy profession of his religion. Euē so, if you aske me what is the thing that singles out a minister in his o…ce from other christians, if I should answere you, bare reading, you wold laugh at me, for it soundeth to harsshe in the eares of the learned: explosa est sentencia, it is hissed out of the Scholes, that vnlesse poore M. Deane of Satum take it vp againe, I beleeue it wil lie in the chanel these 20. yeares before any man be so madde to touch it. Therefore I answere you, it is p. 21not his reading but his sound preaching in a lawefull function that seuereth him from other men: Neither if you marke it, doth our Sauiour himselfe in that special charge of his to his Apostles, couple reading with Baptizing but preaching, bidding them goe preach and baptize: And put case her majestie, should commaund a meere lay man to reade the Scriptures publikely in the Church, should this man sinne in refusing or no? I would gladly knowe. I take it he should, because there is no warraunt to the contrarie in the worde: on the other side, if she sholde enjoine a meere lay man to take vntounto him the pastoral office, by deuiding the worde and dealing with the sacraments, this man I suppose should sinne grieuously in obeying, because he ought rather to die, then to vsurp that office without the lawful calling of the church, so that the bare and sole authoritie of the Magistrate, is sufficient for th'one but not for the other. But this by the way, is but my poore judgment, whereby it may appeare to you, that simple reading, in what account so euer it be amongst men, yet is it not as I conceiue, the thing that doth single out a minister from another christian. It must be only (as I tolde you before,) the sound preaching of the word in a laweful function. &c. Beare witnesse I pray you, that I speake heere of sound preaching, that is, of deuiding the worde aright which the Apostle calleth orthotomein, I speake not of babling or of handeling a text with a Curricombe, in that I joine with M. Some with al my hart, and therefore I wish he had bene with me the 10. of Nouember last, at a certaine Church by the exchange, I thinke they cal it Bartholmewe church, where it may be his ears would hauehave glowed, and (if he durst hauehave bene so bolde,) I doe not thinke but he would hauehave condemnned the preacher and that worthely for his babling. For there p. 22he might hauehave heard him fetch many vagaries, and spend the most of his time in invectiues against good men, telling th'audience to this effect. That for the papists thanks be to God, we need not so greatly feare them, for they were through the vigilans and wisedome of the magistrate reasonably hampered, god be blessed for it: but now the magistrate was onelyonly to cast his eye on the phantasticall crue, such as troubled the peace of the Church, otherwise there might fall out many mischiefes: For so was it done to the Donatists in S. Augustines time, and so to other heretikes in other times. And naming another D. of the Church, either Basill or Chrisostome I take it, I knowe not well whether: he tolde them greatly to their comforts, That he would first tell them his wordes in greeke, & afterward in English, and so he did, belike because they should know that he was a grecian: what a sweet receipt was that trow ye, to such of the people as were either sicke, or troubled in mind? I heare that This preacher (as I vnderstoode since, vvas M. Some himselfe.M. Some vseth to come to that Church himselfe somtime: I pray you when you see him, be in hande with him to shake vp that snuffing preacher for his babling

Farther I pray you beare witnesse with me, that in singling out his minister from other men, I do ad to, The sound preaching of the word, A lawful function. For as I knowe that giftes alone cannot make a minister without a calling, so on th'other side do I thinke, that the bare calling of the Church alone, is not sufficient neither to make a minister, for so might a woman be a minister, whiche M. Some himselfe denies: But both these meeting in one man, that is, giftes and calling together, these I take it, do make a full minister to vsus ward, though there be a Nullitie in regard of some inward manne that we know not of. Now whereas some doe tell vsus, that Admissio indignorum ab Ecclesia non tollit naturam & essentiam Ministerij: that is, The admission p. 23of vnworthy ones by the Church, doth not altogether destroy the nature of the ministerie: As wee were much to blame if we woulde striue against this, so it seemeth they say little or nothing to the matter in question, for th'ambiguitie is in this worde Indignorum, vnworthinesse. I know that a practizing papist is an vnworthie subject, but yet a subject: So may a man of vicious life be a minister, though an vnworthy minister: But on th'other side, what say you to these? A dumb man from his cradle is an vnworthy orator: A blind man from his cradle is an vnworthie painter. These be good sence and good Englishe both, and yet it is vnpossible that any of these should be at all, such as they are named to be: eyther the first an Orator, or the Intter a Paynter: And therefore I take it (by their fauor) that this word vnworthinesse, is something too generall, and thereby somthing too weake, to expresse sufficiently, Questiones & controuersiae energiam: because it may as well be applied to that which is, as to that which is not, and as M. Penri saith, by a mangled bodie, that some be so mangled that they hauehave no life in them at all. So say we by these vnworthy ones: some be so vnworthie, as they are not at all that thing whereof they hauehave their name. And therefore where M. Some saieth, That the Sacramentes are not the better for the worthinesse, nor the worse for th'vnworthinesse of the man: wee yeeld he saith true, and yet nothing to the matter: yet me thinkes it had bene a great deale neerer the point, if in liew of these vnworthie ones, they had incerted these words, Corum qui non sunt omnino ministerij capaces, that is, Which are not at all capable of the ministery: and then we suppose the assertion had bene sound and to the purpose: For not th'admission of eueryevery vnworthy one (in that in deede they say true) but th'admission of such an vnworthie one, as is altogether p. 24vncapable of the ministerie (as infants, women fooles, mad men, dumbe men, &c) those we saye, doe wholly ouerthrowe the nature and essence of the ministerie, and is (as the lawyers cal it) a none est factum or as a lease that is void assoone as it is made. Wherevpon if they reply, that Sola Ecclesia vocat, The Church onelyonly calleth in this age, and that God doeth not now (as in times past by Paule and others) call extraordinarily, or miraculously from heauen, but hath resigned that power solely and whollie to his Churche, wee graunt it is true: But then the question is, what kinde of power this is, whether it be a power without exception, or a limited power? Wee saye it is a limited power & hath his bounds, that it cannot passe (I speak not here de iure, but de posse) And indeed it must needs be so in dispight of our harts, though we should burst our selues in wrangling about it. For first I am sure they will not denie, that the Churche in this her admission, is limited onelyonly to liuing creatures, for if she should make an image a minister, there were presently a nullitie. Secondly she is limited onelyonly to the seed of Adam, for if she shoulde make an Ape a minister, there were presently a nullitie. Thirdly out of the seed of Adam she is limited only to the sexe of man, if she should make a woman a minister, there were presently a nullitie. Out of the sexe of man she is limited only (say we) to those that can speake, and hauehave the vse of reason: for if shee shoulde make a naturall, a madd man, or a dumbe man a minister, there were presently (as we think) a nullitie. Now M. Penri goeth an ase further, and saith, that of those men that can speake, & hauehave the vse of reason, shee is limited onelyonly to suche as hauehave gifts, and are in some measure Thithacticoi, or else (as he holdeth) there is also a nullitie. And here is that so hainous & blasphemous error of his, that hath p. 25so distempered M. Some, and for the which he would so faine hauehave the magistrate to conjure him. Whiche, whether it be an error or no, as for mine owne part, I am not able to defyne it, so yet doe I see, that when men hauehave runne themselues windlesse in wanderinge, yet must they of force in th'ende come to this, to enquire, Qualis est potestas Ecclesiae in admissione ministro rum, & quibus circumscripta finibus, that is, what kind of power the Church hath, and within what boundes to be limited, for therein consisteth the very marowe and sinewes of the whole controuersie, to know how far the Church may stretch her arme in this case. Yet by the way I cannot but muze at one thing, that the popish churches should finde more grace and fauout in this our Metropolitan State, then the reformed churches of other nations. For it is graunted you see, that the popish shauelings and their priests of Baal hauehave forsooth a calling though afaultie one, but doe you think that this will be granted to those of our ministers that were only ordained by the reformed churches beyond sea? Nay soft, Be judge by M. Whittingham, whome it is knowne th'Archb. of Yorke called in question for his calling, in that he was made minister at Geneua: I hauehave heard also, that M. Trauers when he was thrust out of the Temple, was bidden by my Lord of Cant. to proue his calling, alleaging that he was no minister, (for what authoritie saith he in his choller, hath M. Cart. to make a minister?) Therefore you may see the lucke of it, popish wretches and Apostates, breathed vppon only by such as themselues are, hauehave a callinge, but other worthye men (caled to the ministery by worthy churches) must sine a newe for their letters of orders, is not this good stuffe thinke you? Wel sithence it is knowne that M. Trauers was in deede ordeined a minister by a reformed p. 26church beyond the sea, I woulde your D. durst in his next discourse, be as kinde to that poore ministery of his, as he hath bene hithertoe to the popish priesthood, that is of curtesie, (in respect of the credit of the Reformed churches,) to giuegive it some allowance of a calling, yea albeit his grace of Cant. should stand against it. For he knowes it can be no more blasphemie in M. Penri, to say that the popish church can not make a minister, then it is in an other greter man to say that the reformed churches cannot make a minister. But I feare me M. Some is not at leasure, he wil pleasure vsus in an other matter, for such a dash with a penne as this might happely breede a scabbe, why is it not well that he taketh our parts in the Nullitie of womens ministerie: but still men will be regrating more at his hands? Therefore because we will holde him where we hauehave him, I wil be so bold in that point to recorde his words, lest in time he giuegive vsus the slippe men growe so giddy headed nowe a daies: They that hauehave heard my sermons saith he, or read my writings doe knowe very wel that I alowe of non to preach the worde, 81or administer the sacraments, without a calling, therfore neither woman nor priuate man: plainly implying that it is vnpossible for a woman to hauehave any calling: I promise you, I was glad when I reade it with all my hart, for I was halfe a fraide before, I tel you that we should hauehave some learned paradoxe, or some godly treatise in the defence of the ministery of weomen, with this or the like prety gloze, Quoad substantiam, but not quoad qualitatem: or else with this. That they should hauehave had a calling though a faltie one, which had bene but peccatum ecclesiae: or else with this, that the sexe had bene but of th'essence of a lawful & good minister, but not of a minister simply, and that for vsus it shold suffice only to muffie our faces, with a setled perswasion p. 27that Ministerium is datum, and acceptum, and so hang wholly vponupon th'ordination of the church without farther questioning or inquirye. Al this I tel you, I was a fraide of, but nowe sithence we are sure of M. Some one our side, we shal feare the lesse the assaults of others, as hauing on string more to our bowe then we looked for. For he is as learned in his conceite as the best of them, and if he take a pitch, I beleue he wil be as hot as the best of them toe for neede. And thus by occasion of your D. worthy position, that reading doth edisie, hauehave I fallen as you see cursorie into the question of the ministers office, and so of the calling of the ministerie: It is but my poore verdicte you see, and therefore you neede not make a recorde of it, vnlesse you list, for you knowe what a deep clarke I am, if you desire farther to be satisfied in the point, I referr you ouer to him, to whome the matter especially appertaineth, who I hope will either answere his aduersarie with lesse ven…me and more modesty then he finds at his hands, or els giuegive over the cause in silence: For mine owne part, as my skil is not greate, so doe I not hould any thing, but I am apt enough to recall it, if you or a meaner man then you, can bringe me the word to refute it, but hithertoe I confesse I see noe farther.

Well your D. hath yet an other wipe at th'ignorant Welchman, which I had like to hauehave forgotten, the best is, it is with an if aswel as the rest: If you thynk 176saith he, that al the popish sort, that died in the popish Church are damned, you thinke absurdly: most true they that thinke so, thinke absurdly in deede, and I promise you, therein I must hould with M. Some, that if M. Penri thinke so, he is much to blame. But I pray you aske your D. when you see him, vponupon what wall, or with what cole M. Penri did record this thinking p. 28of his, for as yet I beleeue this monster is vnborne, & vnheard of. And how if M. Penri or some of the fantastical crewe should nowe in riquitall say thus. If you thinke M. Some that the calling of a B. or an Archb. is agreable to the worde, you think absurdly: or thus, if you hold that a man may be anonrestdent from his charge at his pleasure, you erre grosly: or thus, if you say that the Discipline & gouernment of the Church, is not prescribed in the word, & that Moses was amore faithful lawgiuer then Christ our Sauiour, you speake blaspemously? Why what is al this to M. Some? For he is not sure so grosse to maintaine any of these, and therefore wee doubt not but he may wipe his mouth, and washe his hands, and wonder to whome they speake. Euen soe may M. Penri I dare warrant for the other, whoe though he be shrewdly threatened by many of these rigorous and thundering Statutes of M. Somes, yet so longe as eueryevery one of them hauehave their gentle desaisans, there is no danger in any of them, for Threatened men (they saye) liue long, if M. Penri doe so or so, then saith M. Some he speaks blasphemously, he ers grosly, & thinks absurdly, and I knowe not what. But if he doe not soe, then belike he hath his supersedeas, and discharge from errors, absurdities, & blasphemies and al. This is some comfort yet, and may happen fall out wel in th'issue, for these isfs, imaginations & supposalls of men, do weigh so light in the ballance of the wise, that they may as easely with one and the same breath be defaced, as euer they were coyned at the first, for who can let a man to batter in peeces that prety Image which he made himselfe. Therefore for a full answere to all these isss, if I were as M. Penri, I would no more, but faire lappe vp this sentence in some letter, and send it M. Some of a toaken, to see whether he knowe it or noe: I deale plainly with you. If my answers p. 29please you not, confute them directly, and not with iffes, ands, & whyes: In which kinde of answering (if I may cal 174it answering) you hauehave a speciall grace. And againe man other place: When you prooue this if of yours. I will accept 91your answere, &c. Me thinks when M. Some looks in this glasse, he shold neuer trouble the reader more with any of those conjecturall syllogismes, made onelyonly of iffes and ands. As concerning this last iff of h…s, I hope there is no man so farre gone, to pronounce any definitiue sentence vponupon all those that departed this life in popery. That being th'onely office of God him selfe, it must needs be too much presumption, and beyond the reache and commission of any mortall man, so to define: But if it had pleased M. Some to hauehave added but one word more to his sentence, & set it down thus: All the popish sort that dye papistes in the popishe Church. If I say, he had added but this word papist, thē do I not see (by his fauor) hat there had bene any absurditie in it at al: For we hold, that to him that dieth a papist (let him do neuer so many good workes, and bu…lde if it were possible, ten thousande Colledges or Churches) the verie gates and porteculleses of Gods merciemercy are quite shutt vp, and all those his glorious work, how sweet soeuer they may be to others, shall be but wrack and misery to himself. And in this point if either M. Hooker, M. Some, or all the reuerend Bb. of the land doe stand against vsus, it shall little dismaie vsus, we say w…th your owne D. (but yet not altogether as he) I…s…er mille, he saith Platonis, but we say veritatis calculus. Now if you tell me, that a man may returne at the last gaspe, and so renouncing all other meanes, cast him selfe wholly vponupon the merits and bloodsheading of Chr…ste Iesus, (as M. Some saith in one place, That many of them hauehave died Gods seruants) then say I, this man dieth not a papiste, whatsoeuer he were before: p. 30Nay M. Foxe saith flatly, he dieth a Lutheran, for Iustification by merit and works, is the very heart, life and soule of papistrie.

By these and the rest, it may easily appeare to you, that your D. might very well hauehave spared the better halfe of his paines, and hauehave done full as much good as he hath. They say it is an euill bargaine that no bodie thriues by. Therefore if it should fall out so nowe, that for all these sweete lessons, drawne with such advisement into seuerall chapters, neither M. Some himselfe should be the more reuerenced, nor M. Penri & his disciples the better instructed: what should a man say to this world? but that Satione belike had a frowning aspect when the bookes were sent to the presse. Now if you aske me what should be the reason why so many things out of question, shoulde be thus jumbled & enterlaced as it were, in one rolle, with things of question and controuersie indeede, let this suffize you, that there is a misterie in it, yea and such a misterie, as peraduenture euerie one seeth not, & I beleeue I could go neer to gesse where M. D. learned it, I pray you what cal you him, that giueth in his coat. An asse with a tippet about his necke, and writes vnderneath, Come and see? He should sure be some ancient gentleman by his coate: I meane that proper scholler that could speake Englishe before I was borne: hee that hath giuen Calvine and Beza suche a blowe, as they could neuer speake word of good Irish since: I meane him that sucked so long, till he could carie his mother a stoole, and that phisitions say, is a shrewde thing for the brain. That pretie pigeon that wrote the 16. great volumes in defence of the Hierarchie of Bb. but as he hath handled it, it may serue aswell for the foule cawsey betwixt Glocester and Bristow: I doe not meane Tarleton man, Tushe no, I meane that musicall Poet, p. 31that can so ingeniously translate rime into prose, and prose into rime againe: That patch of S. Maries pulpit, what should I call him? Bridges, Bridges, a shame on him, I shal hit on his name anon: This is he I feare me, that taught M. Some this tricke, and yet when it is looked into, it wil be found but a sluttish tricke neither I beleeue. This Bridges you must vnderstand, is bound in a recognisance. The condition is this, That if euer he hurt puritane by any learning, reason, logicke, diuinitie, The recognisance that M. Bridges standeth bound in.or good gramaticall sense, then he sorsaits al that euer he hath to her Maiestie, and is vtterly vndone for euer. Now because he hath a pretie good will to hurt them, and yet this Recognisance standes so full in his waye, that he cannot well do it without his losse, see what a fetch that ioule of his hath cōtriued: he brings mee in after his patched manner, certaine assertions (which himself doth not wel vnderstād neither) Som of the Frenchmen against the gouernment of women, some of th'anabaptists against the lawfulnes of magistracie, some of the Brownistes that saye we hauehave no Church. And these forsooth, he mingleth as wel as his reach will serue him (like darnell among wheat) with such other sounde doctrines and grounded truethes as his brethren hauehave set downe in defence of Discipline, and eueryevery hand while he bids them, Beware least they fall into any of those soule errors, for their speaches and writings tend shrewdly that way: which he for his part, good man, is sorie for: And why doth the patch doe this, but only to draw the state to beleue (if he could) that his puritane brethren whom he writeth against, are in one and the same predicament with these? As if the state were as bleare eyed as himselfe, and coulde not discerne both of the soundnes of the one, & of the wretchednesse of the other, vnlesse they borowed his glasse to looke in. And were not that state in an wofull p. 32taking thinke you, that should fetch their paterne of direction from suche an Astrologer as he? By the way, nowe I thinke on it, I woulde you could get M. Some (marrie it must be in his good moode, when his choller is past) to tell you betwixt you two, whether hee thinkes the better scholler in good earnest, the poore ignorant Welshman or the deane of Sarum: I know he hath alreadie past his sentence of condemnation verye farre vponupon one of them, making him in all good knowledge, no better then a very abject of the earth: but what then? yet me think▪ on th' other side, he shoulde neuer looke aduisedly vppon his brother Bridges, but he should blush for joye. And this offer I dare be bolde to make him, on the behalfe of that worthie deane, that let him take into his handes, not onelyonly M. Penries workes, but the writings of all those that they call puritanes for the space of these twenty yeares or better: if I do not finde more grosse, proud, popish, treasonable & blasphemous absordities, more impudent reuilings, and slaunderous vntrueths, more apparant contradictions, more Skoggins jeasts, more ryming in prose, more childish foolerie., more sottish shamelesse, and sencelesse periods in that one booke alone, then can justly be collected out of all the other, I will loose my head for it.

And yet would you thinke that in this learned and lightsome age of the Gospel, any mans eies should be so beglazed, or his forehead so beseared as to bestowe a laudate vppon such a companion as this? Nowe sure we shall come to a pretty passe shortly, what trowe you wil be the next peece of work, that that good fellowe wil venter to commend vntounto vsus? Belike the vertuous attempts of the Spanish Inquisitors, prouided that they will not disturb th'ierarchie of L. Bb. Som sweet Admonition to the people of England, in praise of such p. 33honest men as these, would sure maruelous wel, with that sauage comendation of Parson Bridges his bo…ke They say it was my L. of Winchesters worke: If it were, then hath his L. woone his spurrs for euer, if in nothing els, yet in this, that he ha…h so l…berally bestowed a cold piece of pasty crust vponupon that packsadle of Sarum: wel whosoeuer it were, if it were an Oxford man, I must needs be sory for him, because his honestest shift must be nowe to pleade ignorance. That he by his troth tooke it to be a profound piece of worke, in his poore conceit, otherwise if he be learned, and of judgment in deede, what neede the puritans write against him, when his owne very hand hath bene th' instrument, to giuegive himselfe such an open brandmarke of impudencie, as if he should liue th'age of Methuselah he should hardly be able to wipe it out: being a thing vnpossible, that any man of sound judgment, should euer commend that booke in earnest, but that the very light of his owne hart, must straight flashe him in the face with the lye. And I would they durst put their Lordly jurisdictions vponupon the jumpe of this tryall, I woulde I say they durst hazard their whole title vponupon this issue, whether that be an ignorant or a learned book or noe. They hauehave had heretofore many a round offer of disputation, touching the vnlawfulnes of their callings, which I will neuer blame them if they brooke not, for if they would accept of it, (their case beinge with them as it is) they were worse then madde, but this is some thing a lesse offer then that, and of lesse prejudice and disgrace vntounto them, because it toucheth them but a latare as it were, only in this, that they hauehave not blushed to commend this booke vntounto vsus for the sufficiencie, and wee one the other side, hold the slat contrary, that it was one of the reproches of our Lande, that euer it was suffered to passe the presse. p. 34Nowe in this case whoe must be judge? If I shoulde name Oxforde men vntounto you, it may be you woulde thinke me partial. Therefore seeing M. Bridges himselfe is a Cambridge man, let him hardly be tried by his peeres of the same vniuersitie, and let the grandfathers (if they dare,) put it to the censure of D. Fulke D. Whitaker, M. Cartwright and M. Chaterton, men I hope as wel able to judge as al the L. Bb. in Christendome. And if by the veredict of these it be not founde as I hauehave saide, one of the poorest, grossest, and rawest piece of woorks of that bignes, that came out in English since her Maiesties raigne, let the conquest hardly be theirs, and let them possesse their seats in peace, and the reproch light one the puritans for euer: if otherwise, then let them yeelde themselues guiltie and resigne. But I beleue as wel as they louelove M. Bridges, they had rather see him ouer the eares in purgatorie, or fast bound in the house of Inquisition, then to hazard the least of their Bishopptickes, vppon any such triall.

With what reason then can M. Some so distemper himselfe against M. Penri for one poore error, if it be an error, crying out so loude, and so often, blasphemy blasphemy, and I knowe not what, and in the meane time, suffer that clotheade of Sarum to go away with a whole fardle of errors and absurdities, and not to say Black was his eie? Or what measure call you this, not to giuegive M. Penri leaue to dissent from Caluin for once no not euen there, where he supposeth he hath the worde one his side, and to ride by M. Bridges as if he sawe him not, when he taketh vppon him to treade both Caluin and Beza vnderunder his feet, yea and to throw dust, as it were, one their faces, euen in those points where al the learned knowe they hauehave both the Scriptures, the counsels and fathers with them? Surely there p. 35can be noe indifferencie in this at all. M. Bridges saith that his good and learued discoursing brethren, (for those I take it be his words,) doe erre fowly, and fall into a number of monstrous and impossible absurdities, and why? Forsooth through th'ouermuch credite of these famous men, Caluin, Beza, Daneus and the rest. But howe shall wee doe nowe? M. Some coms in the necke of this with his appeale, and remoues this matter with a Sursurare to a higher court, and there hee puts in a quite contraty plea to M. Bridges, telling vsus more then once, that he for his parte, resteth wholly in the judgment of these excellent men, & that if M. Penri had done so, he had sailed a sure compasse, & not swarued from Gods booke, &c. Yea and he addeth moreouer, & that in good earnest I warrant you, that he more estemeth of one Caluin, then of a thousand Penries. And wil he giuegive his poore bretheren leaue, to answere Father Bridges in that plaine matter toe. That they more estemed of one Caluin or Beza, then of a thousand Bridges? Why alasse then the poore man, is vndone, his whole booke may goe to the washhouse. But in this fowle rent of judgment betwixt your 2. D. what will M. Some say to this? He that was last B. of Norwitch and is nowe (if I be not deceiued,) ether of Peterborough or of Worcester, calling once before him a godly minister of Suffolke, one M. Swette, about some small breach of the booke in the administration of baptisme when the saide M. Swette for his just defence, had brought forth the iudgment of M. Beza, the good B. in his angrye moode replied thus, what tellest thou me of Beza? Beza I tell thee is but a brabler. In like manner my L. of Cant. hauing once before him one Thomas Settle a preacher, about some doctrine that he had taught of Christs descending into Hell, when the said M. Settle alleaged for himselfe, that the doctrine p. 39taught by him, had not only the warrant of the holy scriptures, but also the approbation & testimony of the best writers of our age, as namely, of M. Caluin and others: What tellest thou vsus of Caluin? (Quoth the B. in very disdainful sort,) I tel thee there are here that can teach Caluin. At which time, there satte in commission, th'Archb. him selfe, the Deane of Westminster, D. Pearne and Cousins, a proper band of musitians to teach Caluin. But belike he meant it only by his old Patrone and benefactor, D. Pearne, for whoe but he could teach Caluin to fetch a turne, and a returne? As for any other kinde of good learning, wherby a mans knowledg might be bettered, or his conscience comforted, he that had Caluins guistes, and would make any pilgrimage to Lambeth for a supply, were worthy to be muffled in M. Bridges h…s hoode. By this you may see that if M. Penri should set light by Caluin or Beza, (as I dare say it is farre from his very hart) being men that I doubt not he doth many waies reuerence as notable instruments of God, yet I say, if he shoulde doe so, he hath you see his warrant and protection vnderunder seale, and that from M. Somes betters, euen of the highest and grauest prelates of our Land, wherein I obserue one prety tricke, that yee Cambridge men hauehave aboue others, that is, that yee can m…ke of the newe writers, as Marchants doe of their Counters euen what yee list, sometime a 100. pounds, & somtimes 6. pence against M. Penri, Caluin shalbe instarmontis, aske M Some els. But against M. Bridges, or against the hierarch…e of L. Bb. or any th…ng that they holde in their consistory, both Caluin, Beza, and Danaeus, yea and there were an hundreth mere of them, they shal be all put to silence for want of subscr…ption.

Therefore for that point of relying so wholly and p. 37absolutely vppon the authoritie of men, (which as I hauehave saide, is an other great piller of your doctors booke,) I doe not see but that M. Some (consideringe howe faine he would be thought somebody in the eie of the learned,) hath by this meanes rather disaduantaged him selfe, by bringing the credite of his owne judgment into baser account, thē it may be, his srends would hauehave w…shed him, who might otherwise peradventure in some things, hauehave conceiued as reuerently of him as of Calvin himself. I remember I heard once a notable diuine say in pulpit. That he was not worthye to be a minister of the Gospell, that could not in som measure wring sorth the sence of the holy ghoste, euen by the Scripture it selfe without an interpretor: So far was he, from resting in any mans judgement, that he did altogether condemne those that brought nothing else with them into the pulpit, but what they had gathered out of Augustine, Cyprian, Aretius, Caluin, or som such old or new writer. And I put case Caluin & Beza had neuer written, howe woulde M. Some hauehave done? would his breasts trow ye, hauehave bene so dryed vp, that he should neuer hauehave giuen milke of his owne? that had bene pitie. I confesse to you I reuerence D. Fulke, and no disparagement to any, I thinke him vniuersally as well learned as euer Caluin or Beza was: But what then? yet were it you know, but a poore judgement in matter of controuersie, barely to saye thus, I rest wholly in his judgement. I had thought that where Caluine and Beza had beene wide, as no question but they are wide somtimes (for I dare not trust him I tell you that neuer helde errour) there a man might hauehave had some resolution at M. Somes handes, with reasons alleaged of their seueral slips and ouersights, but now I perceiue he that had made such a journey to master Some, should hauehave but lost his labour, and hauehave beene p. 38frustrate of his hope, for it seemeth he woulde neuer hauehave made him other answer then this: Irest in their iudgements. In which regard, there is some reason yet, that M. Bridges shoulde be priuiledged aboue others, thogh the good soule do not rest in any of their judgmentes, because he doth not lightly rest in his owne, for if he chance to set downe any thing in one booke, he is commonly so kinde hearted, to pull it backe again in another, and what reason were it, he should be more tyed to them then to himselfe? Well, for all this jesting, I would you would take some paines to reconcile me your two Cambridge doctors. I know peraduenture what you will say, that you are sure M. Some is nothing so bleare-eyed as M. Bridges, and therefore to a wise man the choyce is soone made which way to encline: wherein as I hauehave smal reason to dissent from you; (because I do not thinke I tell you, that for that disease, which they call Th'opolexie of the braine, the Deane of Sarum hath many fellowes of his standing in Christendome) so do I the rather thinke it strange, that so graue a man as M. Some woulde be reputed to be, should be so bewitched, to followe in any sort the sleps and traces of him, whom (in regard of all sounde knowledge and judgement) his owne very heart must needs condemne for a drudge. And why then should your D. so egerly pursue his poore aduersarie, by endeuoring to make him hateful to the state, as if there were no way to cleare the matter, then by crying out on the Magistrate to conjure the man, sithence Master Bridges vseth it? Why should he so peremptorily condemne him he knowes not, with all the bitter and evenimed speaches he can deuise, sithence M. Bridges vseth it? Why should he huddle in a number of isses, and strange opinions, that all the worlde knowes his aduersarie disavoweth, sithence M. Bridges vseth it? p. 39In summe, why should he not hate and detest al those bad sleights, that sauor neither of learning nor honestie, sithence so brazen a face as Bridges doth both vse them, practize them, and can scarce make a good flylogisme without them.

Now for that point of Begging the question, though it please him neuer so much to florish it ouer with the name of Beza and others, telling M. Penri that His 8…answere is beggerly, &c. Yet by his fauor, he cannot so wipe it away, but that it may justly bee charged and recharged vponupon his head with a witnesse. As to begin wi…hal, what cal you this I pray you? my reason is (saith he) The popish Church is a Churche, though an vnsounde 163 175Church: Twice or thrise at the least, he is at coste to bestow this vponupon vsus as a reason, and what is this else, but a begging of the question. For howe if a man will not be so kinde hearted, to grant him that it is not any visible Church of God at al, where is he then? Thē you know he must about againe, with a newe voyage into Portingall for more great reasings, for this reason will not serue his turne. And that we hauehave small reason to yeeld him this, shall appeare by Gods grace hereafter, because all the reasons that euer we coulde see hitherto, hauehave bene in our judgements too weake to prooue it to be anye Churche of God at all. In the meane season, that it is doubtfull & questionable at the least: me thinks a man that so vanteth himselfe of reading & knowledge, as M. Some doth, should not be ignoraunt. We see Anthonie Tyrrell, one of the Seminarie priesies that lately recanted at Paules, makes a doubt of it in these wordes, If that may be called (saith he) a Churche, that is infested with so great a contagion, 4…which being aduisedly perused, seene and allowed, & so suffered to passe the presse without a razure, implieth that (howsoeuer M. Some woulde ouer rule the p. 40case, as he doth many others with his Censociall rod) there is neither danger nor heresie to holde the contrarie, sithence our Church doth allow men to make an if at it. What means your D. then to plead it in evidence, as an vnsuspected testimonie, when the thing is either disputable, or cleane against him. Wherein if he falted but once yet, as it were a crashe and away to recreat himselfe, he were to be borne with: But it seemeth he hath some delight in it, in that he plods vponupon it in a maner in eueryevery lease, so that if his last treatise be well examined, it will be found, that he hath prooued the question, by the thing in question, & brought in one razed record to prooue another, no lesse then 30. or 40. times at the least. As in this 192. pag. where he gathereth, that M. Penri should say that the dispensation of our readers ministerie doth feede none, therein he chargeth him To erre grosly: And what is his reason, for it is like you knowe, to be some reason of waight, that should so apparantly conuince a man of so grosse an error: My reason is (saith he) that the Sacramentes administred by them, doe comfort and feede the soules of 192the godly communicantes: for the vertue of the Sacraments, dependeth not vponupon any minister whatsoeuer, &c. Here marke I pray you, he takes it for graunted, that both the things deliuered be sacraments, and that the men deliuering them be ministers, which as I cōceiue is the very maine point in controuersie, betwixt his aduersarie and him, vz. Whether our readers be ministers or no, and thereby whether we can be assured to receiue any Sacrament at their handes. Notwithstanding all which, your learned D. as if he were strongly betaken with M. Bridges his swimming in the head, will needes pawn vsus this for reason, thinking belike, to go smooth away withall, That they are ministers forsooth, and that the Sacraments from their hands, doe both feed p. 41and comfort, &c. As if I to prooue vntounto you, that our Bb. should hauehave no superioritie ouer other ministers, should bring in this for a reason, That their callings are vnlawfull: Though this were true (as heauen and earth knowes it to be most true, howsoeuer like miserable men they striue to avoid it) yet you might justly take exceptiōs to my proof, as a flat begging of the question. Euenso look how often it shall please M. Some to warble vppon any of these notes, ether That the popish Church is a church, though an vnsound Church, or that bare readers be ministers, or that the Sacraments from their hands doe both feede and comfort. &c. So often are we not afraide to tel him and tel him againe, that it is ameere childish begging of the question, vnworthie of any mā that beareth the face of lerning. And yet in this veine, doth he very nere spend & cōsume himself thorow our his whole booke: Talke of a sacrament, why he proues they deliuer it thus, they hauehave a calling: Speake of a Calling, he proues it thus, they deliuer a sacrament. And thus backward and foreward, vppe and downe, from one end to another, he werieth both him selfe and the reader, so cloying vsus with A sacrament by a calling, and A calling by a sacrament, as it is able to make a horse to breake his halter, and me thinkes ye Cambridge men should blushe to thinke that euer any mans penne should be driuen to that penury: neither doe I thinke that you can bringe me the like paterne in any treatise of that bignesse written since Iur maiesties raigne. And yet this is the man that wil hauehave vsus knowe forsooth, that there is nothing to be had at his hands in diuinitie matters, but by force of argument, if you thinke (saith he) that I will come of otherwise you 119are in a wrong boxe: for I intend not to be at your whisle &c. The best is if you marke it, he speaks heere onelyonly of diuinitie matters, and nothing els, so that if a man p. 42should happen to deale with him in Lawe, Phisicke, or Philosophie, there is some hope yet we should finde him more tractable. But in diuinitie matters there is noe mercy with him, he hath tolde vsus what we shall trust vntounto, either arguments or nothing, yet I woulde you would aske him in his eare, whether a Deanrye or a Bishopricke, would not preuaile as much with him in mat…er of Diuinitie, as the best argument in Christendome? For if nothing will doe good of him but arguments, howe shal poore M. Bridges and I doe with him, that hauehave scarse a good argument betwixte vsus to throw at a dogs heade? We had best kepe vsus out of his way, til the edge of these arguments be something overworne, and that we hope wil not be longe, especially if he light once in one of these swete Deanries or Bishopricks. Then I trust a man may speake with him vnderunder a couple of Capons, then I hope hee wil not be so hasty to fright vsus with these forcible arguments. For it may be he wil not be at leasure, he wil hauehave somewhat els to doe: his Chappell and his Organes, with other such implements and impediments moe, will keepe him I trust from doing vsus any greate hurt, either in Lodgicke or Diuinitie while he liues. Then we looke rather he should doe as the rest of his comperes are woont to doe, that is, liue of the stocke, and waste of the stoare, till they be within a little of bankerour: as for arguments and matter of controuersie, because they growe olde themselues, alasse, they may leaue that to Watson or Walton, Haslop or Munday, or some such sweete Chapleine of theirs, whoe hauehave excelent witts at whipcoard conclusions, to manicle these puritans with.