Answer to the Proud Challenge of a Counterset Catholic, Answer · Answer · Article 17 – Article 19
The 17. Article conteyneth 5. demandes.
1 I aske of them whether the Lutherans, Zuinglians, Illirians, Calueniſtes, Confeſſioniſtes, Swenkefeldians, Anabaptiſtes and ſuch like, be all of one Church?
BEcauſe you would make ſimple men beleue, that there be ſo many diuerſe ſectes of Proteſtantes, as you hauehave giuen them names, I will firſt diſcuſſe theſe ſectes, and afterwarde aunſwere your queſtion. Lutherans, you meane them that follow Luthers opinion of the Sacrament. Zuinglians, follow Caluines iudgement of the ſame. Confeſſioniſtes, them that exhibited their confeſſion at Auſpurge, which were both the Lutherans and Zuinglians, ſo theſe 3. names may be contracted into two: Lutherans and Zuinglians. As for Illyrians, if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus, they be Lutherans, in opinion of the Sacrament, and differ onelyonly in ceremonies, which can not diuide them from the faith. Caluine, and they that be of his iudgement, agree plainly with Zuinglius, ſo that of fiue names, there remaine but two ſortes differing in opinion, whereunto you ioyne the Swenkefeldians and Anabaptiſtes. Now to your queſtion, theſe be not all of one Church, for ye Swenkefeldians & Anabaptiſts be deteſtable heretiks, but ye Lutherans & Zuingliās (as it pleaſeth you to cal thē) are of one true church, although they differ in one opinion, cōcerning ye Sacramēt, for although the one affirme a real preſence, ye other deny it, yet they both cōſent in this, that ye body of Chriſt, is receiued ſpiritually, not corporally, with the hart, and not with the mouth. Wherfore, this diſſention is not ſo great (though there be error on the one ſide) but that they may be both of the Church of Chriſt, as well as S. Cyprian, the Martyr, and all the Biſhops of Africa, and a great many of Aſia, differing with Stephanus, biſhop of Rome, and the reſt of his opinion in rebaptizing ſuch as were baptized by heretiks.
2 And if either they can proue vntounto me, that theſe, being of ſuch diuerſitie in faith and religion make one Church.
WE hauehave alwaies abhorred the hereſies of the Anabaptiſtes, Libertines, Swenkefeldians, Dauidians, Seruitians, and all ſuch. But that Luther & Zuinglius, may be both of one Church, differing onelyonly in one opinion of the Sacrament, is declared before.
3 Or that each of their ſects may giuegive ſaluation to their folowers, being ſo diſagreable, one with an other in high points of our Religion.
SAluation is the gift of God, and not in the power of any company, or ſect of men: but this we affirme, that out of that Church, whereof we count Luther, and Zuinglius, notwithſtanding their diuerſe opinions (which is but in one matter of the Sacrament) to be members, there is no ſaluation.
4 Or that I ſhould beleue all theſe rather then the Catholike Church, or one of theſe more then another, all making ſuch a bold chalenge of the truth and Goſpell.
NO man requireth you to beleue all theſe, but the true Catholike Church onelyonly. Neither doe we require you to beleue any one company of men, more then an other: but to beleue the trueth before falſhood. Now, which of them hath the truth, that they all brag of, you muſt ſearch in the word of truth, deſiring the ſpirite of truth that you may vnderſtand and beleue the truth, and ſo without doubt, you ſhall come to the knowledge of the truth, and of the Church of God, which is the piller and ſtay of truth.
5 Let the Proteſtants of all theſe kindes put their heades together, and ſhew me a reaſon of theſe thinges, and with all, let them among them ſelues agree, to what ſorte of theſe ſectes they woulde hauehave me, and I will recant.
SVch is your impudencie in this matter, as in all other, that you woulde make men beleue that the Anabaptiſtes, Swenkefeldians, Libertins, and other abhominable heretikes, be Proteſtantes: But it is well that you can make none but fooles thinke ſo: as for the Proteſtantes, they neede take no great deliberation to aunſwere your demandes but you had more neede to laye your heades together to reconcile the Thomiſtes, Albertiſtes, Ockamiſtes, Scotiſtes, Reales, and Nominalls, which be all ſectes of Papiſtes, and eſpecially your Canoniſtes, and diuines, about the articles of your religion, that is: whether the Pope be aboue the Councell, or the Councel aboue the Pope. Whether the Pope may erre and not the Councell, or whether the Councell maye erre and not the Pope. Theſe two: the Popes determination and the Councells determination, being the rules of trueth in your religion and not agreed vponupon: how can any trueth be certeine in your Church? At for Luther, and Zuinglius, they agree vponupon one rule of trueth, that is the worde of God, and differ onelyonly for the applying or laying of this rule, & yet but in one matter & that not the greateſt. But you Papiſts, ſome holding of the Pope, and ſome of the Councell, as rules of truth, can hauehave no ground nor certainty thereof. Therefore if you woulde hauehave me, or any man, to be of your belefe. Firſt determine how I ſhal know when I am in a right beleefe: one ſayeth, if the councell alloweth it, an other ſayeth if the Pope alloweth, what ſhall I doe, when one of theſe is againſt an other? yea when one Pope is againſt an other, and one councell againſt an other, ſhall I thinke that trueth changeth ſo often as they change. Moreouer when one Pope graunteth, that the councell is aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre. Likewiſe one councell graunteth, that the Pope is aboue the councell and that the councell may erre, as it hath bene within the 200. yeares, the councells of Conſtance and Baſill, determined that the councell was aboue the Pope and that the Pope maye erre. Contrariwiſe, the councell of Ferraria, and Florence, determined that the Pope was aboue the councell and that the councell might erre. Martinus 5. the Pope choſen by the councell of Conſtance, was of the ſame iudgement that the councell: But Eugenius 4. that gathered the councell of Ferraria, and Florence againſt the councell of Baſill, was of the contrarie iudgement. Nowe I woulde ſaye he were a wittie fellow, that coulde reconcile this geare together. For, if he be a Canoniſt that holdeth this opinion: that the Pope can not erre, whē the Pope him ſelf graunteth that he may erre, which waye ſhall he turne him ſelfe? For, if this propoſition be true: the Pope can not erre, then this is true alſo, that the Pope may erre: for if he can not erre he can not erre in ſaying ſo: And if the Pope erred in ſaying, he coulde erre where he can not erre, then this propoſition is falſe, the Pope can not erre, ſo one propoſition ſhalbe both true and falſe, which is impoſſible. Likewiſe if he holde that hilde that the councell can not erre, and the councell it ſelfe confeſſeth it that it may erre. Gentle maiſter N. reconcile me theſe together, which concerne a caſe that hath bene in practiſe and ſtill is, in the Papiſtrie, and maye here trouble a mans conſcience that woulde beleue your church, and if he hauehave any wit, reſtraine him for euer comming into your church: If you can not vntie this knot nor winde your ſelfe out of this maze, vnleſſe you will be ſtill obſtinate, it were wiſedome for you to recant.
The 18. article hath but one demande.
I demande whether they were euer of the true Catholike church, which either tooke to them ſelues newe names of religion according to the calling of any ſecte maiſter, or liked not ſo well the name of Catholike or Chriſtian as of their ſeuerall teachers, as to be called of Arius, Arians, or of Caluine, Caluiniſtes, or of Luther, Lutheranes, or Proteſtants &c. if any man therefore can proue vntounto me that men which hauehave choſen to themſelues to declare their diuerſitie of faith, from the common knowen Catholike church ſuch newe names, ſhoulde be of the Catholike church, I recant.
I Aunſwere that they which can not be content with the name of Chriſtians, but choſe vntounto them ſelues newe names after the calling of their ſecte maiſters: as Arrians, Pelagians; Franciſcanes, Dominicanes, Benedictines, Gilbertines, Auguſtinians, Scotiſtes, Thomiſtes, Albertiſtes, &c. are none of the Catholike church: But the true Chriſtians which deſier moſt of all to be ſo called, and compting it a moſt honorable name without choſing any other name, be of the Catholike church, although in reproch, they be called of you Caluiniſtes, and Lutherans. As for the name of Proteſtants, came firſt of them that made proteſtatiō againſt the decree of Spires in Germanie, and from that time hath bene attributed to the profeſſors of the Goſpell: which name they doe not ſo much delight in, as you doe in the name of Papiſtes. Therefore, if nothing els do let you but the name, there is no cauſe why you ſhoulde not recant.
The 19. article hath but one demande.
Againe, if theſe, which by the common calling and iudgement of Chriſtian people, be named and commonly taken for heretikes, hauehave not in all ages proued them ſelues in the ende to be heretikes in deede, notwithſtanding their craking of Gods worde, and therefore that the Proteſtants being ſo taken and called, proue not ſo in deede, I recant.
THoſe that by true Chriſtians, hauehave bene called and counted for heretikes, hauehave proued ſo in deede, and therefore the Papiſtes, being called and counted heretikes of true Chriſtians, without doubt, are heretikes in deede. But it hath not bene alwayes true, that they, which of the people commonly called Chriſtians, were called and taken for heretikes, proued ſo in deede. For the true Chriſtians of the Arrian people, that were called Chriſtian people, were called and taken for heretikes, and in reproch, were called Homouſians, and Athanaſians, yet they proued and were in deede, true Chriſtians and no heretikes. So the true Chriſtians at this day, being of the Papiſtes, which after a ſorte, are named Chriſtians: called heretikes, and in reproch Proteſtants, and Caluiniſtes, in that their faith agreeth with the worde of God, proue them ſelues in deede, to be true Chriſtians, & no heretikes. Therefore you hauehave bound your ſelfe to recant.