Two Treatises Against the Papists, Book 2 · Chapter 16
An aunsvvere to such arguments as the heretikes doe frame of the holy scriptures not vvell vnderstanded, against the practise of Gods Church, in praying for the deade, or the doctrine of Purgatory. CAP. XVI.
1 THerefore to stoppe their waye at eueryevery turne, and because they talke so fast of scripture, full fayne woulde I heare what scriptures they hauehave, that make either expressely agaynst purgatory and prayers for the deade, or else by any one learned man in all the worlde, was euer expounded for any such sense. And loe now (good reader) what scriptures they alleage that can ab…de nothing but scripture. First out of Ecclesiastes. The tree whether it fall to the south or the north, Cap. 1.it lyeth euer where it lighteth. Then they alleage out of S. Matthews Gospell, that there be two wayes, one to bring to heauen,Cap. 7. and the other leading straight to hell. And then out of the second to the Corinthians, they bring in, howe we must all stande before the iudgement seat of Christ:Cap. 5. there to receiue eche of vsus according to our workes and life: and that by other mens labour, our state can not be amēded. Againe they allege this sentence of the Apocalypse. Beati mortui &c. blessed be the deade that dye in our Lorde,Cap. 14. for after that, the spirite sayeth, that they shall reste from trauells. All which textes, and the like of that sorte, make no more against purgatory, then they doe against hell or heauen: excepte, that as Anaxagoras the philosopher saide, all thinges were in eueryevery thinge,Phisic. 1. l. so these diuines can finde eueryevery texte of scripture to make for what purpose they liste: and yet if the Catholikes alleage a numbre of scriptures, and them with the minde and iudgement of the whole worlde, that doubteth not but they proue that, for which they be recited, yet they set light by them, and impudently with clamors beare men in hande, that they hauehave no scriptures at all. VVhichWhich thinges as they smell of much arrogancie in all men, so in these folke that so mal…pertly controwle others, where them selues hauehave no scripture at all, it is vntolerable.
CAP. XVI.
1 THis chapter is but pro forma tantum to make a shew of a confutation, where neither the tenth parte of our arguments are rehearsed, nor those that are named with any couller of reason, and lest of all with authority of scriptures, are confuted. First he will allow vsus but 4. textes of scripture, because he will not take paines to wrest any more. And those make nothing for vsus except all thinges be in eueryevery thinge as Anaxagoras said. It should seeme M. Allen, that you your selfe dreamed so with Anaxagoras, else would you not finde purgatory in eueryevery one of them, which we saye is in none of them, but rather excluded by them all. But who can prescribe the deuill a measure in lying? when he is disposed to lye? we hauehave no scriptures at all, the Catholikes hauehave all the scriptures, and the iudgement of the whole worlde vppon them: you hauehave sayd enough, M. Allen, to winne the whet stone, if it were as bigge as any mountaine in the worlde.
2 And for these, which they here or else where alleage, I aske them sincerely, and desire them to tell me faithfully, what doctor or wise learned man of the whole antiquity, euer expounded these textes recited, or any one of them, or any other which you bring in else when, against Purgatory or practise for the deade? If they did not, how can you for sinne and shame dissent from the whole Church of Christ, vponupon so light groundes? Or how dare you be so bolde, that seeke in eueryevery controuersie expresse scripture, to alleage these places, which wise men, nor I thinke your selues take for any such purpose? Or how may you for shame reiecte the euident worde of God, by vsus truely reported for the triall of our matter, your selues hauing almost nothing, that can be wrasted to your sense?
2 Before the heresie of Purgatory was planted in the world, how could the olde doctors interprete these places, by name against that which they neuer heard named? yet hauehave they so interpreted some of them, that their interpretation can not stand with purgatory or prayer for the dead, as I will shew in their particular aunsweres. When we require expresse Scripture for eueryevery controuersie, we doe not require that eueryevery thing should be named in Scripture, but necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures and purpose of the holy Ghost in them. As for the euident word of God, which you report for tryall of your matter, is yet to shew, and shall be for euer. You shame not to boast of that to be your triall, which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of i…, in any lawful conference or disputation: your great bellwethers and Bishops declared before ye whole world in the conference of Westminster, what they durst abide, when they came to handestrokes. It is a gay matter for such a chattering pye, as you are, to make a fond florish a farre of in wordes of common wrangling, to please your patrones and exhibitioners, it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede.
An ansvver to the first place.3 If you stande to the triall of our alleaged testimonies, you will be much abashed I know. For how can you imagine, that the place recited out of Ecclesiastes, shoulde further your intent any thinge at all? Seeing, that euen then when the wiseman spake those wordes, the soule of man straight after her departure, and the fall of the body, continued not where it first fell: for the iuste had a place of abidinge and rest in the inferiour partes, which was called of Ezechias the gate of hell.Esay. 38. In the Gospell Sinus Abrahae, the bosom of Abraham, and nowe Lymbus Patrum: in which they all abode till they were deliuered by the bloude and trauell of our Sauiour Iesus. VVith whome, they after were translated to the eternall ioyes of heauen.Bern. ser. 4. de fest. omniū Sanct. Amb. super 5. ad Romanos. VVhichWhich thinge if it be true, as it can not but be true and certaine, which the whole course of scripture, the article of our faith in Christes descension into hell, and all the auncient fathers doe constantly setforth, what blindnes be they in then, that bring this place against Purgatory, which as it is a stay of certaine for a time from heauen, so the other before Christ, was the staye of all. And therefore, it is plaine, that this fallinge of the tree meanith nothinge lesse, then that eueryevery man shoulde straight vponupon his departure be conueide either to hell or heauen.
Or if any wedded to Caluines blasphemous and vnfaithfull paradoxes, doe with Purgatory deny the fathers place of abode, before the comming of Christ, and impugne the beleefe of Gods Church so much, that he withstande the article of our Creede, for Christes descending into hell, to turne the cause of his going into hell, to some other purpose then the loosing of their captiuity that there were in expectation of his ioyefull apparance, yet I would demaunde so much of Caluins successor or scholar,Caluins absurd doctrine is refuted. seeing he will of this figuratiue speach of the trees falling gather so grounded and generall a rule, that with out delay eueryevery man must to heauen or hell straight after his death, there to remaine in perpetuall state of his fall in the next life, either good or badde, I woulde aske of him (I saye) what he thinketh by all those, that were by the Prophets, Apostles, or Christ him selfe, raysed vp againe from death to life. VVho receiuing by death that fall, by their accompt must needes abide where they first fell: and so not in case to be reuoked, by this their false conclusien they diminish the power of the spirite in working their raising againe. Or else they must impute deceite to the holy men, and our maister Christ (which abhorreth me to speake) for that they raysed them not being perfectly deade, but in some deadly traunce, or apparance of death.
But because the soule of Lazarus, The state of such in the next vvorld as by Gods omnipotē tie vvere raised to life againe.was nowe foure dayes out of his bodye before Christ wroght vponupon him, it is sure and most certaine, that it had some place of abyding after the separation from the fleshe. I can not thinke that his soule was in heauen: nor it is not like, that our Sauiour would so much abase the happy condicion of him whome he loued so well, as to reduce him to the vncertaine state of this life. I will define, in this my ignorance, nothing touching the secrets of Gods wisedome herin. But very like it is, that the parties raysed from their fall and death, were not in the ioyes of heauē. As before Christes death, I am sure they were not, but I speake of Tabitha also or other reuoked by the Apostles handes, that then after Christes passion might full well, dying in perfect state of life, goe straight to heauen, of such I say it is very reasonable, that they were not in the ioyes of the elect. For else Tabitha shoulde not hauehave had such a benefite by her almes, as the fathers doe witnesse she had. And they vse her for an example, of the benefite which maye rise to one after departure, by charitable workes done in this life. It had ben a small pleasure to hauehave plucked her from heauen to this mortalitie againe, and misery of our common life: and I trowe no man maye auouche w…th salfety of his belefe, that she or any other raysed againe mira…ulously, was reuoked from the desperate estate of the damned soules, then she must necessarily be called from some meane condicion of her present abode, and perhaps from paine too, to this former state of life againe. But as in this secret of God, no man without iuste reprehension maye deeply wade, so it maye reasonably be gathered that the fall of the tree before mētioned, can not induce with any probability, the necessity of the soules abiding in all respects, where it first light. Mary we freely graunt with diuers of the auncient fathers, that the fall of the tree into the Southe parte, maye signifie vntounto vsus the departure of man in the happy state of grace, and the Northe side likewise, the cursed and damnable state of the wicked: and tha… he which passeth hense in either of these estates and condicions (as eueryevery lyuing man doth) can not procure by other, neither deserue by him selfe, the chaunge of his happy lot, or his vnluckie happe, otherwise then in his life time he deserued. That is to saye, if he passe this worlde an electe person, in the louelove and grace of God, he is out of doubt of all damnation, or rather out of possibilitie to be reiected: and so the case of the forsaken is vtterly remedilesse. And further by that figuratiue speache you had not best on your owne head to be ouer bold, least some Saducete of your sect, gather the perpetuall reste of the bodye, without all hope of resurrection. I can not tell how it falleth, but yet so it doth, that your doctrine and arguments minister ouer much occasion of errour, and that to the deceiued in the depest matters of our faith. But I will rubbe you no more on that sore. I warned you before, to take heede to the resurrection.
3 If we had no stronger testimonies, then these, and you no better aunswers then you make to these, yet should not we hauehave so much cause to be abashed at our allegatiōs, as you to be ashamed of your confutations. Your first aunswere is, that the soules of men at that time continued not where they at the first fell, but went first into the inferior partes, which you call Lymbus patrum, but neither Ezechias nor the Gospell, knew any such place. For Ezechias speaketh of the graue, the Gospell of that place of comfort, where the soules of the faithfull are in happy estate, euen where Christ is. But O learned Logitian, that aunswereth one controuersie with an other, as much controuers…d. Nay, stay a while, the article of Christes descending into hell maketh all out of doubt. If that be so, why doe we not say that Christ descended into Abrahams bosome or into Lymbus patrū, or seeing Christ sayd he would be in Paradise, why say we not that he descended into paradise, and seeing he commended his spirite into the hands of his father, why say we not he descended into his fathers handes. But because these be no absurdities that follow of M. Allen, & that papisticall assertion, you shall heare Caluins absurd doctrine, refuted by the sayd famous Clerke M. Allen with famous reasons. He will aske (for his aunsweres be questions) what is it to be thought, of those that were raysed from death to life, seeing they receiued their first fall. This were a pretty question for a Sophister in Oxeford to demaund in their parleis. But the poore man tormenteth him selfe in vayne, they which deny prayers to be profitable by that place of the wise man, vnderstand the fall of the tree to the South or to the North, to be the iudgement of God concerning eueryevery man, either of reward or of punishment, which can not be altered after a mans death. This restreyneth not God from working miracles, and sending some to life againe, but sheweth what the ordinary state of men is after their departure. This place is of them that dye & remaine in death, vntounto the day of the generall resurrection, as for the other, although they were dead, yet they were appoynted to liue againe, they fell in deede, but to hauehave a particular rising, but when they fell to abyde the generall rising, they were in the same case with the rest. But examples will make the matter cleare. The soule of Lazarus was 4. dayes from his body, M. Allen thinketh he was not in heauen, for Christ loued him too well to bring him out of heauen: and not that onelyonly, but to reduce him to the vncerteyne state of this life. As though it were iniury to Lazarus to forbeare the ioyes of heauen, for the short tyme of this life, to become such a glorious example, of the maiestie of Christes power, and as though Christ, which brought him to lyfe temporal, was not able in the incerteinty of this life, to preserue him to eternall life. O prophane heathenish Sophister, of Gods high mysteries. But seeing you thinke M. Allen he was not in heauen, where thinke you in your conscience he was? in hell, or in purgatory, or in Abrahams bosome? for you hauehave store of diuerse places, if he were in hell, you hold there had bene no redemption. And it is not like that he whom Christ loued so well was 4. dayes in torment. If you say he was in Abrahams bosome, yet he was in comfort and certeinty of saluation, then by your owne reason, it is not like that Christ which loued him so well, would abase his happy condition to bring him to the state of this life which is miserable and as you say vncerteyne, yea he had bene better in purgatory: for you holde he shoulde hauehave bene in certainety of saluation, but so he was not when he returned to the vncerteine state of this life, the like may be saide of Tabitha. But these be foolish and vnlearned questions M. Allen, which the Apostle willeth vsus to auoyde, as gendring strife rather then edificatiō. And yet when you hauehave questioned about them all you can, you shall neuer proue the common case of the departed in Christ, by these fewe peculiar cases. For when so euer and how so euer it pleased God, that their soules remained, it was determined of God that they shoulde be restored to their bodies. And although there soules were in heauen and in happines, as I doe not doubt but they were, yet was it no iniurie nor hurt vntounto them, to serue the glory of God. For I doubt not but as all the Godly in this life, confesse it to be a parte of angelicke felicitie, to be obediente to the will of God, so those that were so raised from death, so long as their secōd life continued, caried in their hartes, a heauenly fruition of the glory of God shining in their restitution: and of their thankefull obedience, submitting them selues to the will of God. But when these matters passeth the reache of M. Allens sophystrie, as of which he can prate much, and define nothing, he falleth to an other shifte: that the fall into the southe, signifieth the certainty of saluation, that the elect be in, after this life, and the fall into the North, the certainty of damnation, that the wicked are in. For though the elect be in purgatory, yet they be in the fauour of God, and certaine of saluation. But this glosse corrupteth the texte, for then they should alwayes lye in purgatory, which is a warme south (if it be as they saye) for the certeinty or vncerteinty of their saluation, is as great before they were borne, as after they be deade. It can not be therefore that the wise man speaketh thereof. And because you cracke of the exposition of the fathers, Hieronym in his commentary vponupon this place, expoundeth the Northe and the Southe not for the states of grace or wrath, but for the places of rewarde or punishment of them that die. Si dignos Austro fructus attulit in plaga iacebit Australi. Nec est aliquid lignum quod aut ad Aquilonem non sit aut ad Austrum. If it hauehave brought forth fructes worthy of the South, it shal lye in the Southe coste. Neither is there any tree but it falleth either to the North or to the South. As for your babling of the Saduces secte, and doubting of the resurrection, bidde your Popes and Cardinalls take heede of it. Pope Iohn the 23. was condemned for it in the Councell of Constance. Epicureisme and Saduceisme is more common at Rome then Christianitye.
4 Nowe for the other texte recited out of S. Matthewes Gospell of the double waye,An ansvver to the secōd text. the one to perdicion, and the other to saluation: there is almost none so simple, but he seeth that it maketh no more for your purpose, then the other. For there, as our aduersary can not but knowe (though to deceiue he liste dissemble) mention is made, and the meaning is only of these two wayes in this worlde and life, in one of which, being full of ease and libertie, the wicked walketh towardes hell or damnation: In the which waye, the riche man and vnmercifull tooke his time: of whome Abraham said, that he had receiued good in his dayes. In the other, being both straite and harde, the small numbre of the chosen take their iourney towardes heauen. And yet if you thinke good, you maye ioyne the place of temporall punishment for sinne in the worlde to come, to the straite and painefull passage of the elect, though perhaps all they entre not thereby. And so shall you finde this place not onelyonly nothing to further their cause, but somewhat to helpe ours.
4 If there be but two wayes in this life, there are but two abiding places after this life. If there be more then two after this life, then there be more wayes then two in this life. Controll our Sauiour Christes partition as vnperfect, if you list. You will saye, that needeth not, for purgatory after this life is that straight gate or a pece of it. what els? It is not enough for our English Anaxagoras, to exclude our opinion out of these places, but he must finde purgatory in them also. This is plaine to make quidlibet ex quolibet. But the commaundement of Christ marreth the market of this interpretation, vnlesse you thinke when Christ willeth vsus to striue to goe in by the straight gate, that he biddeth vsus striue to goe into purgatory.
An ansvver to the third argument.5 And so for the other taken out of the fift to the Corinth: S. Augustine shall aunswere you, and beare me witnesse, it maketh nothing for you, his wordes be these in his Encheridion: This practise that Gods Church vseth in the commendations of the deade, CX.is nothing repugnant to the sentence of the Apostle, where he saith that we all shall stande before the iudgement seate of Christ, that eueryevery one may receiue according to his desertes in the body, either good or euill: for this in his life and before death he deserued, that these workes after his death might be profitable vntounto him, for in deede they be not profitable for all men, and why so? but because of the difference and diuersitie of mens liues, whilest they were in this flesh, &c. And this same sentence the Doctor often repeteth, almost in the same forme of wordes in diuers places, both to correct their ignorance that mighe take a way prayers for the deade, because they finde the sentence of Gods iudgement to be executed on man according to the deseruing of this liefe: and no lesse to geue monition to the carelesse, that they omitte not to doe well in this life, vppon hope or presumption of other mens workes after their decease: which as they be exceding beneficiall to many, so they helpe none such, as in their owne life woulde not helpe them selues. The like declaration of this pointe hath S. Denyse in the 7. chapter of his Ecclesiasticall soueraignty: which I omitte, lest in this point, by S. Augustine sufficiently auouched, I weerye the reader without cause.
5 And S. Ieronym with your owne canon law shall aunswere you, that prayers preuayle not after this life 13. q. 2. In praesenti, In this present world we know, that we may be helped one of an other either by prayer or by councel, but when we shall come before the iudgement seate of Christ, neither Iob nor Daniel nor Noe can intreate for any man, but eueryevery man must beare his owne burden.
6 The last obiection, of the Angells wordes in the Apocalypse,An ansvver to the laste scripture. a…firming the state of all those that dye in our Lorde to be happy, to be past trauell, and in reste and peace: they be properly spoken there, of holy men that sheede their bloude in the times of persecution for Christes sake: to geue them assured comforte, after a litle toleration and patience in the rage of Antichrist, of blessed and eternall reste, and so the circumstance of the letter plainely geueth, and so doeth S. Augustine expounde it. And for such holy Martyrs it is needlesse to pray,Cap. 9. lib. 20. de ciuit. as to pray vntounto them is most profitable. Albeit the wordes are true, and maye be well verified of all that passe hense in the happy state of grace, being past the cares of this troblesome worlde, and which is the greatest trauell of all other, vtterly dispatched of the toile that sinners take in their wayes of wickednesse: with freedome from sinne, and all feare of sinne and damnation, for euermore. So that this reste from labour, is no more but a happy ioye of conscience, with securitie of saluation and peace in Christ Iesu. For which cause in the holy Canon of the Masse, it is saide, Christianos dormire in somno pacis, & in Christo quiescere, That Christian folkes doe sleepe in the sleepe of peace, and rest in Christ, though for all that, in the same place, we aske Requiem & refrigerium, reste and refreshing for them. And this holy peace from all toyle of the worlde, and worme of tormented conscience, the electe children of God in their fathers correction, being assured of his eternall louelove doe blessedly enioye. But the wicked be in contrary case, of whome it is saide, non est pax impijs, there is no rest or quietnesse to the wicked: no not in their dayes of ioye, much lesse in their infinite miserie of their euerlasting torments in the worlde to come. Of whose vnhappy state, the Prophet warneth vsus thus againe.Isay. 57. Impij quasi mare feruens quod quiescere non potest: The wicked be right like vntounto the tumblinge and tossinge sea, that neuer resteth. The place of S. Iohn then, being namely spoken of holy Martyrs that straight with out all paine after this life passe to heauen, may yet very fitly stande with the happy case of all those that dye in the fauour of God, and assurance of their saluation: though they abide sharpe, but sweete paine of fatherly discipline, for their better qualifying to the ioyes prepared for them and all other the elect. So that nowe, the mouing of these doubtes hath so litle aduantaged our aduersaries, that it hath somewhat geuen occasion of further declaration of our matter, then otherwise perchaunce we shoulde hauehave had.
6 The last obiection that you list to trouble your head with all, is that voyce which was heard from heauen. Apoc. 14. of the blessed state of them that dye in the Lord, in the meaning of which you wrest and wrigle, like a snake, that is smitten on the head, but you can not auoyd the strife. First you vnderstand it onelyonly of Martyres, that dye in the Lord, and call Augustine to witnesse thereof. As I will not deny but Martyrs are specially comforted by that voyce, so I wil affirme, that it is to the common comfort and rewarde of all the faythfull in Christ, who as they liue in Christ so they dye in Christ. And witnesse hereof I will not take of flesh and blood, but of the holy Ghost. Rom, 14. None of vsus liueth vntounto him selfe, neither doth any dye vntounto him selfe, for whether we liue, we liue vntounto the Lorde, and whether we dye, we dye vntounto the Lorde. And the Apostle 1. Cor. 15. nameth the faithfull that are a sleepe in Christ, and 1. Thes. 4. them that are deade in Christ. Wherefore in despite of the deuill and the Pope, this blessing apperteyneth to all them that dye in the Lord Iesus Christ, as true members of his body, and not to them onelyonly that shedde their bloud for Christ. True it is, that all they that would liue godly in Christ Iesus, suffer persecution, but not all to the death, else who are those innumerable Saincts that no man can number of all nations and tongues, which S. Iohn sawe, Apoc. 7. who are likewise in happy and blessed rest, without all maner, lacke or hurt, hunger, thirst or heate? but when you are weary of that interpretation, you wring out an other: that they in purgatory also be happy, because they be sure of saluation at last, and the rest from labours, is either the rest from sinne, or else no more but ioy of conscience. witnesse of this exposition is the canon of the Masse. The witnesse, the matter and he that vseth it, are all of like credit. But if I might pose your conscience M. Allen, can you call that a happy rest, which is ioyned with such torment & misery, as you beare men in hand is in purgatory? HaueHave you forgotten that you sayd yere while of Tabitha and Lazarus, that it was a benefite for them to be deliuered out of purgatory into this life, and is it now a blessing to be dispatched out of this life into purgatory? And as for that which you allege out of the canon of your masse, declareth that your masse was patched togither of many peeces of diuers colours. For you pray for the rest of them whome you confesse to be at rest in Christ: you wish easement for them whom you affirme to sleepe in peace. As though in Christ were not perfect rest, as though in peace there were torment, and this exposition you your selfe are weary of also, and turne agayne to your former and then backe againe to the latter. An vnconsta…t man is vncerteyne in all his wayes, yet all were litle worth, if this place helped not to proue purgatory also. For the payne of purgatory is a sweete payne, a happy rest, a fatherly discipline. And yet as Augustine sayth, it is but for small faultes, or as you say, for great faultes, that by penance are made small. And is God such a mercifull father, to punish small faultes so extremely in his children, whom he pardoneth of all their great and heynous sinnes? O blasphemous helhoundes.