Two Treatises Against the Papists, Article rebutted 9
The nynth article may be deuided into nyne demaundes.
1 And for the necessary vse and execution of the foresayd offices, they must further be asked, what Sacramentes the Protestants ministred for the space of a thousand yeares togither, in which they confesse their congregations to hauehave bene neare or else wholy hidden.
THey ministred those Sacramentes which Christ did institute, namely the Sacrament of baptisme, and the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, at such times as the cruell tyrannie of you Papistes did not hinder them, to come togither for such purposes.
2 VVhat correction they kept and discipline for offenders.
THey did vse such discipline as was vsed in S. Cyprians time, when persecution hindered not the free course of it. As he doth often complaine in the places aboue rehearsed. They did admonish secretly, before witnesses, and when persecution stayed them not, they did also excommunicate.
3 To whome they did preach their Fayth.
TO such as woulde geue them hearing, as VVickleue to the Englishmen: Iohn Hus to the Bohemians: VValdo to the Frenchmen, and so of the rest.
4 How did they reproue heresies?
THey reproued heresies, by the worde of God, and patient sufferinge of your tyrannie: the one you may reade in their workes, that are yet extant of VVickleue, Bertrame, Hus, &c. The other in histories of your owne writers.
5 VVhere did their principall Pastors sit in Iudgement?
I Might aske you where the Apostles did sit in iudgement and you are neuer able to shew me, for I reade as one sayth: that they stoode often to be Iudged, but I neuer reade that they sat in iudgement vponupon others: And so I aunswere of the principall Pastors of our Church, especially in time of persecution.
6 VVhere did they gather as in Councells to try the trueth of doubtfull matters?
AS God gaue them respight, from your tyrannie, they had conference one with an other: and as for doubtes, they tried them by the worde of God, and not by number of voyces, as you do in your councells, as for the places where they met, is nothing at all materiall, at Prage, at Lyons, at Merindol, &c.
7 How might Christian men, iustly offended with some of their brethern, hauehave sought out your officers or Congregation, to make complainct of him?
YOu are void of all reason that in a persecuted church, will require all thinges to be so formall and orderly, as in time of peace and quietnes, I could choke you with putting like cases of your Church. If a number of Papistes be carried prisoners into Barbarie, or Turkey, what Sacraments, what discipline, what Iudgement hauehave they among them, if one be offended with his brother how shall he come to your office…s, or to your Church to complaine. In such cases where the ordinary authoritie of the Church is hindred by persecution, or otherwise, the rule of S. Paule. 1. Cor. 5. may serue and ought to be obserued: If any that is called a brother be a fornicator, or couetous, or an Idolater, or a rayler, or a drunkard, or an extorcioner with such one eate not. So that if a Christian be iustly offended with his brother, he ought to absteine from his company. And if he may hauehave ordinary authoritie, he may complaine further.
8 Or how if it had liked any man to hauehave ben baptized of them, or to hauehave receiued the communion of them, or to hauehave bene married of them, or to hauehave ioyned them selues in Fayth and Religion to them, how might I say that secret, contemptible, and vnknowne company, be founde in this case?
HE must hauehave sought them out as well as he could, & if he had bene perswaded, that they onelyonly ministred the Sacraments, & Ecclesiasticall rites, sincerely, according to the word of God, it were no great matter for him to find them, seing he knew by whom he was so perswaded, and of them might also be informed where he should hauehave them. I maruell you are not ashamed to demaūd these questions, as though it were materiall to discusse, whether of vsus hath the Church, to hauehave the Church so manifest, that eueryevery man may see it. Doe you not remember how many schismes hauehave bene euen in the popish church, more thē twenty, and sometime two Popes at once, sometime three, & sometime fower, which of them should a simple Papist take for head of the Church, especially in the 22. schisme, which lasted 39. yeares: one Pope sitting at Rome, an other at Auinion, either hauing his court, either hauing and making Cardinals, either cursing other. Or in the 23. schisme, when the question was of one of the highest pointes in all popery, and is not yet throughly decided among them: Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell, or the Councell aboue the Pope. In the time of these schismes how might a man hauehave founde out, which was the true Church, which was Christes vicare in earth, which had the right Sacraments and Sacramentalls, to which Popes court should he appeale, where did the principall Pastors sit in iudgement, &c. How should councells be gathered, which Pope shoulde confirme their actes, &c, When you are able to aunswere these questions, for your owne church; then you may better require them of ours. As for that secrete, contemptible, and vnknowne company of our Church, in the sight of the world, was neuerthelesse manifest, glorious, and knowen to our Sauiour Christ, and the liuely members of his body.
9 If therefore you can shew me, that any man euer sought Iustice or knowledge of trueth, sacrament, or faith, or any helpe of Saluation at the Protestants secret and close congregation, or any other where, but of Gods knowen Catholike Church, I recant.
ALthough it be to litle purpose to aunswere this demande, because it is no reason to say, these thinges hath not bene, because chronicles make no mention of them: yet that all men maye see, how farre you ouershoot your selfe, I wil partely satisfie your request. Charles the great sought knowledge of the trueth of the sacrament of Bertramus. Iohn, Duke of Lancaster, and diuers other noble men were instructed in our Religion by VVickleue. The land of Bohemia, was conuerted by Iohn Hus, and Hieronym of Prage, and sought the sacraments of them. Finally, you alwayes forget the Greeke church, which you do not accompt parte of the Catholike church, and yet you can not deny but men hauehave sought Iustice, sacramentes, faith, &c. of it. Therefore if a man might trust you vponupon your worde, you recant.