Two Treatises Against the Papists, Article rebutted 8
The 8. article conteyneth 3. demandes.
1 And because Christ as S Paule sayeth, hath established in his Church some Apostles, some Prechers, some Teachers, and Doctors euen vntill his comming againe, I aske the Protestant, what Church that is, which is able to shew & proue, the continuance and vse of the saide functions euer sence Christes time by plaine accompt of orderly Succession.
I Aunswere the Papist, that Christ hath geuen to his Church some Apostles, some Prophetes, some Euangelistes, some Pastors, and Teachers. Ephes. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. And we are able to shew & proue, that we continue in that vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God, for which ende such offices were ordeyned. But whereas you require, that we should shew you the continuance of those functions by orderly succession from Christes his time vntill our dayes, you declare how small skill you hauehave in vnderstanding the scriptures, for the offices of Apostles, Euangelistes, and Prophetes, were not appoincted to continue alwayes in the Church, but for a time, vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the worlde. Moreouer, whereas you requier an orderly succession, according to persons, or places, you are neuer able to proue, that any such thing was promised to the Church, that we should shew you the performance thereof in our Church. Otherwise we doubt not, but God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers, that hauehave instructed his Church in the necessarie poinctes of Christian Religion. Although the worlde and the church of Antichrist did not alwayes see them.
2 And is able to name you by the histories of all ages, the notable personnes of all the forsaide states, in their gouernment and ministerie.
AGaine I answere you, that you are not able to name, me any text of scripture, by which you can proue, that al these offices must hauehave perpetual cōtinuance in ye church of Christ, nor yet that any of them should kepe an ordinarie succession of place or persons: But contrariwise, seeing it was prophecied that the church should flie into the wildernes, that is, be driuen out of the sight and knowledge of the wicked, and be so narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a longe season, it were a token our church were not the true church, if we could name such notable persons as you speake of, in all ages florishing in their gouernment and ministerie. And it is a good argument, that the Popish church is not the church of Christe, because it was neuer hidden sence it first sprang vp, in so much that you can name all the notable persons in all ages in their gouernment, and ministerie, and especially the succession of Popes, you can reherse in order vponupon your fingers, in which beadroole, neuerthelesse you must name many tyrants, many traytors, one whore, many whoremongers, many Sodomites, many murtherers, many poysenors, many sorcerers, and Necromancers, and from Boniface the third, all blasphemous heretikes, and Antichristes. But our church, which hath not had so many registers, chroniclers, and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer, but yet honester men to name: we can name Peter, Paule, Mathew, Iohn, &c. Marke, Luke, Timothe, Agabus, Epaphras, &c. Iustinus, Irenaeus, Cyprianus, Athanasius, Hylarius, Ambrosius, Augustinus, &c. Gyldas, Bertramus, Marsilius de Padua. Ioan. de Ganduno, Bruno Andagauensis VVickleue, Iohn Hus, Hierome of Prage, &c. With the first, namely Apostles, Euangelistes, and Prophets, we consent wholly in all pointes of doctrine, with the rest, in the cheefe and most substantiall articles of faith, alwayes agreeing with any man, so farre as he agreeth with the worde of God.
3 And if he can proue vntounto me, that their Church hath neuer lacked the same appointed officers, or that any Church or Congregatiō but ours hath kept that charge, thē I recant.
FOr some of those officers I hauehave twise aunswered before, that they were not ordeined, to continue alwaies, with the church, wherefore they are not to be exacted of vsus, but such officers as are necessary for the conseruation of God his people in the vnitie of faith and the knowledge of Christ, our Church hath neuer lacked, although in time of the great defection and Apostasie whereof S. Paule doth prophesie 2. Thess. 2. there were but few, as there were but fewe members of Christ his Church notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time, the remembraunce of all their names is not come vntounto vsus. And although we could rehearse in order as many successions in our Church as the papistes boast of in theirs, yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ, which must be tried onelyonly by the Scriptures, as S. Augustine sayth in his booke de vnitate Ecclesiae, against the Donatistes cap. 16. Sed vtrum ipsi Ecclesiam teneant, non nisi diuinarum Scripturarum canonicis libris ostendant, quia nec nos propterea dicimus nobis credere oportere quod Ecclesia sumus, quia ipsam quam tenemus commendauit Mileuitanus Optatus, vel Mediolanensis Ambrosius, vel alij innumerabiles nostrae communionis Episcopi, &c. But whether they holde the Church or no, let them shew none otherwise, but by the canonicall bookes of holy Scripture, for we our selues doe not therefore say that men must beleeue vsus that we are in the Church because we hold the same Churche, which Optatus of Mileuitum hath commended, or Ambrose of Millayn, or innumerable Bishops of our communion. Euen so we require at the Papistes handes that shewe them selues to holde the Church not by succession of Bishops, or rehearsing of their names, but onelyonly by the Scriptures: for although we did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly succession on our side we would not require men to beleue vsus, but onelyonly because we proue the doctrine of our Church by the authoritie of the Scriptures. But as for the popish church, neyther hath nor euer had any of those officers which S. Paule speaketh of, for Apostles, Euangelistes, and Prophets, she can chalenge by no reason, seing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writings, in steede of pastors & teachers she hath wolues, dūme dogges, or false prophets, which either teach not at all, or else teach the doctrine of deuills & the dreames of men. And further I would desire none other place in all the Scripture, to ouerthrow the popish Hierarchie (which is the greatest glory of their Church) then this place of Paule, Ephes. 4. he speaketh of Apostles, Euangelists, Prophets, Pastors and teachers. But where are Popes, Cardinalls, popish archbishops, Bishops, Preestes, Deacōs, Subdeacons, Exorcistes, Cantors, Acolyts, Ostiares, Monkes, Friars, Chanōs, Nunnes, &c. Wherfore I cōclude that all these popish orders are no offices in the Church of Christ. And especially, seeing the Apostle both in this place Eph. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of minde, he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth, which might be very profitable (as the Papists say) to mainteine this vnity: for if there had bene any such office appoynted of God, S. Paule in no wise woulde hauehave omitted it, especially when it made so notably for the confirmation of his purpose, which was vnitie. To conclude if it be sufficient, or any thing worth, to rehearse the names of them that hauehave orderly succeded in all ages in the bishops sees, in an outwarde face of the Church, the Greeke Church is able to name as many as the Latine Church, and in as orderly succession. Wherefore if you be as ready to performe as to promise, you recant.