Rejoinder to Bristows Reply, Part 2 · Book 7 · Chapter 5
CAP. V.
Sander.
Master Iewell hath not replyed well, touching the Capernaites.
Harding.
If Christ in S. Iohn had spoken tropically, the Iewes and disciples, who were vsed to figures, would not hauehave said: This is an hard saying.
Iewell.
His reason hangeth thus: The Capernaites vnderstoode not Christ: ergo his bodie is really in the Sacrament.
Sander.
No sir, They vnderstoode Christ to speake without parables, & Christs wordes pertaine to ye sacrament, therefore his bodie is really in the Sacrament. They vnderstood what Christ promised, but they beleeued it to be either not possible, or not conuenient.
Fulke.
The maior & minor of your mishapen syllogisme, are both false. Augustin in Ps. 33. Exhorruerunt sermonem, &c. They were afraide of his speache, & not vnderstanding, they thought our Lord Iesus Christ had spoken some hard thing, &c.
Sander.
S. Augustine saith, they vnderstoode not, because they beleeued not. in Ioan. Tr. 27.
Fulke.
What though infidelitie were ye cause of their not vnderstanding, yet he saith, Non intelligēdo scandalizati sunt, By not vnderstanding, they were offended: ergo you saide falsely, they vnderstoode what he promised. And much lesse vnderstoode they the meane howe it should be perfourmed.
Iewel.
He said, The bread which I will giuegive &c. of spirituall eating: It is the spirite that quickeneth. Vnderstand ye my words spiritually, saith Augustine.
Sander.
See in my third booke, Cap. 19. & 20.
Fulke.
See the answere in the same places.
Iewel.
Ye shal not eat, saith S Augustine (with your bodily mouth) this bodie that you see, &c. I giuegive you a certeine Sacrament.
Sander.
Of this place I hauehave spoken at large, lib. 6. Cap. 2. & lib. 3. Cap. 14.
Fulk.
And I hauehave sufficiently answered in ye same places.
Sander.
Beside this great dissimulation of S. Augustines meaning, Master Iewel hath false translations.
Fulke.
Sander heth foolish quarels: master Iewell giueth the sense faithfully.
Iewel.
We hauehave a spirituall mouth, taste, eyes, eares, as Basil, Leo, Origen, Tertullian say, Christ is to be digested by faith, he is the bread of the minde, not of the bellie, to beleeue in him, that is to eat the liuing bread: therefore Christs meaning is spirituall & not reall.
Sander.
The fondest kind of reasoning in ye world. Christ is eaten both spiritually & bodily.
Fulke.
Al these fathers meane only spiritual eating, excluding all other carnal & grosser maners of eatings.
Sander.
Doth not Tertullian say, The flesh is fedde with the bodie & bloud of Christ, to the ende the scule may be made fatt of God?
Fulke.
Tertullian speaketh manifestly of the externall Sacraments, which hauehave the name of the things signified, as of ye signes of baptisme, impositiō of hāds. &c.
Iewel.
Chrysostom will not suffer this euasion: who saith, to vnderstand carnally, is to vnderstand plainly, as the thinges be vttered, and to thinke vppon nothing else.
Sander.
We vnderstand not so. For wee seeing the forme of breade, thinke vponupon the bodie of Christ.
Fulke.
But what did the Capernaites see, whose vnderstanding you defende? And what other thing do you vnderstand, then is vttered in the wordes?
Iewel.
S. Augustine saith: The saying of Christ is a figure or manner of speach, commanding vsus to be partakers of Christes passion.
Sander.
The speach is figuratiue, not in the substance to be eaten, but in the manner of eating: therfore when Christ had consecrated bread into his bodie, that speache was not figuratiue, because the maner of eating was determined vnderunder the formes of bread and wine.
Fulk.
Saint Augustine hath stopped that starting hole, expounding ye meaning of that figuratiue speach, not of eating Christ vnderunder the forme of bread, but of communicating with the passion of Christ, which is represented by the Sacrament, and is perfourmed without the Sacrament. So you faile, both in your substance and manner of eating.
Sander.
Of the whole saying of Augustine, I hauehave entreated more fully, lib. 3. Cap. 14.
Fulke.
And I hauehave answered more fully.
Iewel.
Tertullian saith: The Capernaits thought his speach was harde, and intollerable, as though he had determined to giuegive them his flesh verily, and in deede to be eaten (with their mouthes) therein saith Tertullian stoode their error.
Sander.
The worde ve… doeth not shewe that they tooke it to be eaten in substance, but that they thought they should eate it carnally, they thought not of eating vnderunder the forme of bread.
Fulke.
Not onelyonly the worde verè, must needes shewe they thought the substance of his fleshe shoulde be eaten verily, but also the argument of Tertullian doeth plainly proue it. For he answereth the obiection of them that denyed the resurrection of the fleshe, because of ye Angelike perfection, whereunto the children of the resurrection shalbe changed: shewing that the perfection shall not bee through vertue of the fleshe, but through the incorruption which the flesh shall put on. Vsing a similitude of the flesh of Christ, which of it self doeth profite nothing, but by vertue of the spirit, which maketh it able to giuegive life. Wherefore the error of the Capernaits was, in that they imagined the substance of Christes flesh should be eaten bodily, which Tertullian affirmed should be eaten spiritually, and by faith of his worde onelyonly. As for the authoritie of Lyra which followeth, is not worth the contention.