A Confutation of a Popish and Slanderous Libel, Treatise · Answer 8 – Papist opinion 19
The aunswere.
The very title of your argumentes declareth, of what force youre argumentes are. Your reasons are tenne in noumber, whiche if thei were all graūted to be true yet foloweth not this conclusion, that our Churche hath no agreance, with the Primitiue Churche of Christe, excepte you would affirme, that all the doctrine of the Primitiue Churche, were comprehended in these tenne poinctes. Again your owne Popishe Churche differeth, in these tenne poinctes, as muche from the Primitiue Churche, as ours, therefore by your owne Logike, I will conclude, that your Popish churche, hath no agreance with the church of Christ. 1. For neither you hauehave all thinges common, 2. neither dooe you sell your houses, and landes, to putte the price in common. 3. Neither doe you make diuision to eueryevery manne, accordyng to his necessitie. 4. Neither are all mēbers of your Churche so prouided for, that none dooe begge. 5. Neither doe you baptise onelyonly in the name of Christe. 6. Neither dooe you giuegive the holy ghost, by laiyng on your handes. 7. Neither dooe you restore theim to health, whom you annoincte with oile, beyng sicke. 8. Neither dooe you make open confession of your synnes. 9. Neither dooe you celebrate the Sacramente, after supper. 10. Neither dooe you abstaine from bloodde, and strangled, therefore by your owne reason, you hauehave no agreance with the Primitiue Churche of Christe. Or if you maie hauehave any agreance, these differences notwithstanding, why maie not we the same differences, nothyng lettyng vsus, hauehave sufficient agremente therewith? You see that either your argument is nothyng worthe, or els you hauehave as little agreance with the Primatiue churche, as we. Your only refuge is this, that it is not necessary for you, to hauehave any agreance with the primitiue Churche. And that is the opinion of all Papistes, whiche is diligently to be noted, that you disclaime of al title of the Primitiue Churche, whiche you holde, was but an infante, and by addition of your doctrine, and Ceremonies, is growne to bee of womannes state. As though Christ maried his Churche, when she was vnderunder age, and so the matrimonie was not ratified, and consumated, before the Pope had nourtured her in his schole, vntill she came to yeres of discretion. For it is as lawfull for me, so to inferre vppon your allegorie, as for you so to allegorise of her.
But that you maie the better vnderstande, what we meane by the primitiue Churche, I putte you out of doubte, that none of vsus doeth attribute vntounto her, suche long limites, as you doe in your argumentes, gathered out of the Doctours: where you alledge the seconde counsaill of Nice, as a determination of the primitiue churche, whiche was holden almoste eight hū dred yeres after Christe. Of whiche thing you were not ignoraunt, but you thought it was sufficiente, to fill vnlearned eares, with greate blastes, voide of all reason, or truthe. Wherefore, when wee appeale to the Primitiue Churche, wee meane the Churche of the Apostles, and their successours, so longe as thei continue in the doctrine of the Apostles, whereof triall is to be made, by the Canonicall writynges of the Apostles. That wheras you accuse vsus for departyng frō your churche, as though we were of no Churche, wee defende our selues to be of the true churche, seyng wée retaine the faithe, and doctrine of the primitiue Churche, whiche without all controuersie, was the true churche. Now as I hauehave shewed you, what we accompte to bee the primitiue churche, so muste I declare, in what thynges wee are bounde to consente, and agree with the same. For whiche purpose, we must marke this difference, whiche I suppose, no Papist is so farre paste shame, to deny: namely, that in the primitiue Churche, some thynges were necessarie, and immutable, some thynges againe were temporall, and variable. Of the firste sorte is the doctrine, and Sacramentes, of the latter sorte are Ceremonies, and politike constitutions. To the doctrine no manne maie adde, no man maie diminishe, no manne maie alter, any thyng thereof. The Sacramentes beyng, as Augustine calleth theim, the visible woorde, bee of the same nature with the doctrine. On the other side, Ceremonies, and publike constitutions, mate bee reteined, or chaunged, as thei make beste for edificatiō, for order, and for comelines. And of this latter sorte, are all those thinges, whiche you alledge, in which we differ from the primitiue churche. But yet, so longe as we holde still the same faithe, and the same Sacramentes, whiche are lefte to vsus by the primitiue Churche, all reasonable men will iudge, that notwithstandyng your reasons, wee hauehave suche agreance with the primitiue Churche, as may proue vsus to be members of the same. For it is the vnitie of faithe, and Sacramētes, not of Ceremonies, and constitutions, that ioigneth vsus vntounto the bodie of Christe, as witnesseth sainct Paule to the Ephesi. iiij. One faithe, one baptisme, one God. &c. Now let vsus particularly consider your tenne differences.
The Papiste.
First it is written howe the beleuers in the Primitiue churche had all thinges in common. And no one man did reckon the thing that he did possesse, to be his owne or priuate.
The aunswere.
Firste, it it is a sporte to see, howe to make a shewe of a greate multitude of dishes, and to fill vp the noumber of tenne, you diuide one matter into fower quarters, whiche is of the cōmunitie of al thinges, that was in the primitiue Churche, whiche should hauehave been serued all in one mease, but for fashiōs fake. That thei had all thynges common, one while in Hierusalem, it is very true, but that thei had so alwaies, and in all places, it is most false, for saincte Paule exhorteth the Corinthians, to giuegive almose to the poore liberally. j. Cor. xvj, and he willeth Timothe, that he charge thē that be riche, in this worlde, to be ready to distribute vntounto yt necessitie of their brethren. j. Timoth. vj. which neded not all, if all thynges had been common. This was therefore a variable order, and constitution, whiche continued but a shorte tyme, neither was it profitable, but onelyonly then, when the noumber of the disciples was but small, in comparison, and liued all in one place at Hierusalē.
The Papiste.
Seconde in the Primitiue Church suche of the beleuers, whiche were possessors of Landes and Houses soulde theym, and powred it doune before the Apostles, but the beleuers of this oure late reformed Churche are not come to that perfection, nor yet are aminded so to doe.
The aunswere.
This is all one with the former, for how could thei hauehave had all thynges common, if eueryevery man had reteined his houses, and landes, to his priuate vse. And yet no manne was compelled to this communitie, for Peter saieth, plainlie, to Ananias, that he neded not to hauehave sold his land, neither to hauehave brought the price, but of his free will. But whereas you accoumpt it a perfection to hauehave all thynges cōmon, I muste bée bolde to tell you, ye sauour of Anabaptistrie, for although it was then expediente for thal tyme, emong a fewe, yet it were not tollerable to bee vsed as a pefection emong all the churche of Christ But would bryng a meere confusion, and disorder of all thinges, beside that it is vnpossible, that all Christian men, in all places, should hauehave all thynges common.
The Papiste.
Thirdly in the primitiue churche, Christes Apostles and their successours were chiefe gouernours of the beleuers, and of such goods as they had in common amongest theim, diuision vntounto eueryevery manne was made therof, by the appoinctment of the Apostles, according as they thought it nedefull or necessarie. And because Ananias the husbande of Saphira wente aboute to kepe backe a portion of that comon mony, for the which they sould their Landes, the Apostle. S. Peter did strike theim bothe with sodaine death. But in this our reformed Englishe church, beside that the beleuers are at no suche appoinctment of the Bishoppes and successors of the Apostles, they doe by their lawes spoile theim of all they hauehave, by takyng from them so muche of their temporall landes, and so muche of their goods, for firste fructes, tenthes and subsidies as they liste. And therfore in this poinct it hath no agreans with the order of the Primitiue church.
The aunswere.
The Apostles kepte not that gouernement long in their handes, but committed it ouer to the Deacons, as it is declared in the sixte chapiter of the Actes, by which it is manifeste, that it was no perpetuall order, whiche in so shorte tyme, was altered. For in suche thynges, the Churche maie institute, and chaunge, as often as it shall seme expediente. But whereas you charge our Prince, to bee a spoiler of the churche, by withdrawyng the landes, and gooddes thereof, by takyng firste fruictes, tenthes, and subsidies, you shewe your self what an honest subiecte your are. We for our partes, acknowledge, that it is in the Princes power, to increase, or diminishe the stipend of the ecclesiasticall ministers as shalbe thought expedient, and that it is our dueties, to paie all suche taxes, tributes, and subsidies, as by lawfull aucthoritie, are laied vponupon vsus. But I meruaile why you should accuse our princes, for taking of subsidies, as though Popishe princes, doe not take subsidies of their Cleargies also, and moste of all when the Pope who hath no aucthoritie, to demaunde one penie, hath extorted suche infinite sommes of money, for annates, firste fruictes, palles, pardons, and suche other tromperie: whereof how greate complaintes the Cleargie of Englande hath made, you maie reade in Mathewe of Westminster in the liues of diuers kynges, and namely of Henry the thirde, and Edward the first. One historie is notable, that the Pope fente a Legate called Otto, with a letter, complainyng of the greate pouertie of the Churche of Rome, whiche was the cause that she was compelled, to pille, and polle poore suters, that sued to the Courte of Rome, in remeadie whereof, he demaunded of eueryevery Cathedrall churche two prebendes, and of eueryevery Religious house, so much as the portiō of two Mōkes, or cloisterers came to by yere. But the Cleargy would in no wise graunte it. The same requeste was made in Fraunce, but could not bee obteined. Wherefore eueryevery man maie see, how maliciously you slander the prince, whiche hath aucthoritie to take for necessarie affaires, of the realme, so longe as a competent liuyng, remaine vntounto the Ministers
The Papiste.
Forth it is writtē of the Primitiue church, that of suche goods which thei had in common, ther was such equall diuision made by the handes of the Apostles, that no one man of the beliuers did lacke, or was forced of necessitie to begge. But since the reformation of this Englishe church, many especially of the Clergie which were before well able to liue, are now brought vntounto a very bare and beggerly life and estate.
The aunswere.
This diuision lasted not longe emong the Apostles at Hierusalem, for saincte Paule from the Churches of the Gentiles, receiued almose, to supplie the necessitie of the poore sainctes at Hierusalem, and by Peter, Iames, & Ihon he was exhorted so to doe, as you maie reade, in the seconde to the Galathians, and the second to the Corinth. viij. and. ix. And as for your Cleargie, if any of theim bee broughte to beggerie, it is through their owne ignoraunce, and frowardnesse, whiche either will not forsake their heresies, or are not able to minister in the Churche of Christ, if any worthie menne bee neglected, it is the faulte of some priuate persones, and not of the whole Churche.
The Papiste.
Fiueth in the Primitiue church, christes Apostles did baptise the beleuers onelyonly in the name of Iesus Christe, and not by expresse woordes of the Father, the Sonne, and the holy Ghoste, the whiche forme of baptizyng vsed in the Primitiue churche, these new reformatours vse not.
The aunswere.
That any of the Apostles, Baptised, onelyonly in the name of Iesus Christe, excludyng the name of the father, and of the holy ghost, it is a detestable sclaūder of the holy apostles. Who as thei had an expresse commaundement, of our sauiour Christe, to baptise in the name of the blessed Trinitie, the Father, the Sonne, and the holy Ghost, so there is no doubt, but thei did alwaies obserue it, which is easily to be gathered, out of the. xix. chapiter of the Actes where certain disciples of Ephesus, beyng vnorderly baptised, by some preposterous disciples of Ihon: aunswered thei knewe not, whether there were an holy ghost or no, sainct Paule then doeth demaunde into what thei were baptized, as though he should saie, if you had been rightly Baptized, you could not hauehave been ignorante of the holy ghost, but by their aunswere, he perceiued, that thei were baptised into the name of Ihon, and not of Christe, as though Ihon had béen the head of their religiō, and not christ. Then after S. Paule had declared yt Ihons doctrine & baptisme, was to bee referred altogether to Iesu Christe, thei were baptised into the name of Iesus Christe, that is to acknowledge Iesus Christ to be the heade and aucthour of their Religion, not that in the forme of their Baptisyng, the name of the father & of the holy ghost was excluded. And so are all other places to be expounded, where it is saied, that any are baptised in the name of Iesus Christ. And in no place is it said, that any manne was baptised onelyonly in the name of Iesus Christ. Wherfore this cauillation as it vnproffitable for your purpose, so is it slanderous, and blasphemous against the Apostles.
The Papiste.
Sixte in the Primitiue Churche the Apostles, Peter, Ihon, and their Successours, did geue the holy Ghost vntounto their beleuers, that were before baptized by laiyng their handes vppon their heades, whiche thinge our reformators of this our English churche doe refuse to doe by their deniall made of the Sacrament of Confirmation.
The Aunswere.
Although I wil not contende with you, on what parte of mens bodies, the Apostles laide their handes, yet it is boldly affirmed of you, that thei laide their handes on mens heades, whiche you reade not in any place of the scripture, but concernyng the substance of the matter, the Apostles by the ceremony of imposition of handes conferred the holy ghost, that is to saie, the visible graces and giftes of the holy ghost, as the gifte of tongues, the gift of prophecie, the gifte of healyng and suche like, whiche giftes, as they were temporall in the Churche, to beutifie the ministery of the gospell, in the firste publishing therof, and nowe are ceased, so the ceremony by whiche thei were conferred, is rightly abrogated. For now the ministers by laiyng on their handes, can not giuegive those externall graces of the holie ghoste, wherefore thei ought not to vse that Ceremonie. An other imposition of handes, was vsed by the Apostles, on those that were Baptised, beyng infantes, which after thei came to yeres of discretion, professed their faith before the Churche, to whiche thei were Baptised, and so were receiued onelyonly by imposition of handes, whiche was therefore called confirmation. Not that it was a Sacramente, or a signe of Gods fauour, suppliyng that which wāted in baptisme, but that it was a testimonie of the Churches allowing, of those that were so Baptised, and after learned the principles of their faithe. And this Ceremonie, we retaine in our churche, not as a Sacramēte, whiche is a visible signe of an inuisible grace, betwene God and vsus, but as an externall approbation, and receiuyng of the persone, in suche sorte Baptised. As for your Oile and Chrisme, that you occupie in your Popishe confirmation, hath none institution of Christe, and therefore is no Sacramente.
The Papiste.
Seuenth the order and maner was of the Primitiue churche, if any man was dangerously sicke, to send for the Prieste, to praie for hym, and oinct hym with Oyle in the name of our Lorde God, whiche the reformatours of this our Englishe churche doe refuse to doe, by their deniall of the Sacramente of extreme vnction.
The aunswere.
In the primitiue Churche, the Elders of the Churche, had the gifte of healyng, and therefore, when any man was sicke, thei vsed to sende for the Elders of the Churche, who praied for hym, and anointed hym with Oile, in the name of the Lorde, by whiche Ceremonie, it pleased GOD, to restore the partie to healthe, as you maie read in the v. Chapiter of sainct Iames. And in the sixte of saincte Markes Gospell wee reade, that the Apostles beyng sente abroade of Christe, to preache, and woorke miracles, vsed by the same ceremonie, to heale many that were sick. But now whē the gifte of healyng, continueth not in the Churche, it were a verie ridiculous thyng, to vse that Ceremonie. And as for your extreme vnction, by no meanes can be accompted that vsage, of the Apostles, for you anoint none almost, but suche as are past hope of recouerie, so farre you are frō restoring any to healthe by your beggerly ceremonie.
The Papiste.
Eight in the Primitiue churche we dooe reade in the nintinth chapiter, of the actes of the Apostles, how vponupon a certain plague there made vponupon seuen bretheren, the sonnes of one Sceba, by a man that was possessed with the Diuelle, many of the people whiche did beleue in Iesus Christe, theruppon came and made vpen confession of their sinnes, and made declaration of their priuate actes and dedes, whiche the reformatour of this our Englishe Churche will none of, by the deniall of Sacramente of penance, and all the partes therof.
The Aunswere.
It is straunge to see, vntounto how narrow shiftes, you are driuen, to make vp a number of argumentes. HaueHave you nothing but open confession, to proue your priuate and auriculer confessiōs God be thanked, ther are many also in our churche, that make open confession, and declaration of their former life, led in blindenes and superstition, of their falling in time of persecutiō and other like offences, but what is this to your popishe Sacramente, of auricular cōfession? or what likelihode hath it with the same? Firste the faithfull bringyng forthe certeine examples of their actions, acknowledge how they were seduced by the deuill before they embraced the faith: the popes law compelleth men to reherse all their deedes, wordes, and thoughtes. These men made their cōfession once, the popes law requireth eche man to confesse eueryevery yere once at least, these came forth to this confession of their owne accorde, the pope compelleth all men vppon necessitie of saluation. Againe the text saieth, that many came, but not all, the popes lawe excepteth none, these Ephesians made open confessiō, before al the church, as you your selfe acknowledge, the pope commaundeth eueryevery man to whisper his confession, into a préestes eare. Let al men iudge, what agrement this their confession, hath with your auricular confession. And wheras you saie, we deny the Sacrament of penaunce, and all the partes therof. The truth is, we preache repentance, as we are commaunded, by the woorde of God, but no Sacrament of penance, dooe wee finde in the Scripture, what you meane by the partes of penance, I cannot well tell, but if it be those three, that bee commonly sette forthe in writers of your dunsical diuinitie, contrition of harte, confession of mouth, and satisfactiō of worke, you shall here, what wée thinke of theim. Thei are suche, as a verie limme of the Deuill, maie performe, and yet goe to the Deuill, when he hath dooen. Example in Iudas Iscarioth, who hadde contrition of harte, as the Scripture teacheth, when he was sorie for his facte. And he made confession of mouthe, to the priestes, when he saied, I hauehave synned, in betraiyng of innocente bloode. Finally, he made satisfaction of woorke, when he restored the thirtie siluerlynges, whiche he receiued for his treason. And when he had so dooen, wente and hanged hym self in despaire. You see, that Iudas lacked none of youre three partes of penaunce, but he lacked faithe, without the whiche, all contrition, confession, and outward satisfaction is nothyng auailable. And therefore you teach a verie wholsome kinde of penaunce, in whiche faithe in the bloode of Christe, is no parte at all. Neither is it necessarely required thereto, by your owne doctrine. For Sacramentes (you teach) giuegive grace duplicate page duplicate page ex opere operato, that is, of the woorke wroughte, so a manne dooeth not withstande the receiuyng of them, whiche you call ponere obicem. And therefore penaunce beyng one of your Sacramentes, and absolution of sinnes, maie be receiued without faithe, in the merites of Christ. Therfore kepe your penaunce for your frendes we can not skill of suche Sacramentes.
The Papiste.
Ninth the order and maner of the Primitiue churche, was to celebrate the Sacramente of christes bodie after supper, as it apeareth, both by the example geuen therof by our sauiour Christe, and by the testimonies of the Apostle sainct Paule, which they doe not obserue nor followe.
The aunswere.
You are not able to proue, that any suche order was established, in the primitiue Churche, that the Sacrament of the bodie, and bloode of Christe, should bée receiued after Supper. Although it was by our Sauiour institited after his laste Supper. Not appoinctyng any tyme, in whiche it ought of necessitie to bee receiued, no more then the Sacrament of Baptisme, is bounde either to Mornyng, or Euenyng, daie, or night, or to any tyme of the daie, in whiche it was firste ordeined. And whereas you alledge the aucthoritie of saincte Paule for your purpose, you doe hym greate wronge, for he reproueth the Corinthians, for confoundyng drunken, and prophane bankettes, with the holie Sacrament of the Lordes Supper. i. Cor. xj. And as for the tyme, place, and other like circumstances, perteinyng to the ministration of the Sacramentes, thei are in the discretiō of the churche to appoinct, as thei maie beste serue for order, comelinesse, and edification. But ouer the substaunce of the Sacramentes, the Churche hath no power, as to take the cuppe from the laie people, whiche none but the churche of Antichrist would presume to doe.
The Papiste.
Tenth in the Primitiue Churche, it was decreed by a solemne law holden by the Apostles of Christe at Hierusalem, that the christen men men shoulde absteine à sanguine, & suffocato, from blood and all suffocate thinges, whiche our reformatours performe not, nor will admit any fasting from meates and drinkes at all, by the whiche testimonies, and proues gathered out of the diuine scriptures, howe plaine a matter it is that they purpose not in their reformation to reduce vsus to the Primitiue Churche of Christe, when therewith besides they hauehave no agreaunce, they doe all thinges cleane to the contrary, like as ye hauehave partlie hearde by profes made therfore out of the diuine scriptures, and shal heareafter more at large by the writinges, and testimonies of the moste best learned, and grauest fathers that euer were in Christes Churche.
The aunswere.
The Apostles in that Counsaile, made not a perpetuall lawe, to binde any mannes conscience, but onelyonly a temporall decree, to auoide offence of the weake Iewes: who were accustomed to abstaine from suche thinges, and this decree, as occasion serued, was broken, and altered. But where you saie, wee can admitte no fastyng from meates, and drinkes, at all. You shall vnderstande, that we compte it no fastyng, to abstaine from one kinde of meate, and to fille your beallie with an other kinde, as to refraine fleshe, and to glutte your stomack with fishe. Or as the Maniches abstained from liuyng creatures, and riotted in fruictes, spices, and delicate confections. Neither did the Apostles, by that decree commaunde any fastyng, but onelyonly abstinence from bloode, and strangled beastes, whiche was offensiue to the Iewes. And for suche ende of auoidyng offences, or for ciuile pollicie, we can, and doe admitte abstinence, from some kindes of meates, and drinkes, but not for Religions sake, neither accoumptyng any suche abstinence to bee fastyng. But true fastyng, to tame the bodie, and to bryng it into subiection, to humble our selues, to make vsus more apte to praie, we commende, and exhorte menne vntounto it, although we make no tyrannicall lawes, to entangle any mannes conscience with all. Your féeble kinde of reasonyng, should not incurre so greate reprehension, if you had not as well in your title, as in youre conclusion, made so bolde bragges, of your plaine proofes, whiche be so plaine in dede that eueryevery manne maie see, thei hauehave no force at all in theim. And whereas you threaten to shewe, that wée dooe all thynges, contrary to the primitiue Churche, you doe well to sate, it shall bée performed in suche sorte, as you hauehave proued already, that wee hauehave none agreaunce with the same. For he that hath experience, howe pithely you hauehave reasoned out of the scriptures, can not but hope, that you will dispute, euen as profoundly out of the Doctours.
The Papiste.
Argumentes gathered out of the holy Fathers and aunciente doctours, prouyng that this late reformed Englishe Churche hath no agreance with the primitiue church of Christe.