A Confutation of a Popish and Slanderous Libel, Treatise · Answer 7 – Papist opinion 8
The aunswere.
In your laste consideration, you doe inconsiderately alledge, that you are not of our Churche, but shewe no sufficient reason, why you ought not to bee one of our Churche. You saie, we are departed from the churche, in whiche we were baptised, as though, if a manne were Baptised in a Churche of heretikes, he is bounde to remaine in the same Churche, and heretical faithe of that Churche, in whiche he was baptised, so that if a manne were baptised in the Churche of Arrianes, Nouatianes, Donatistes, Pelagians, he might not forsake the faithe, and Churche, in whiche he was baptised, to become a true Christian catholike. A childe of seuen yere old, maie see how slender a reason it is for a manne, to continue in any Churche, or Religion, because he receiued baptisme therin. For if a Papist maie not become a Protestāt, because he was Baptised in the Popishe churche, by the same reason, a Protestant must not become a Papist, if he were baptised in the Protestantes Churche, which you your self by no meanes will graunte.
The seconde reason you bryng, is of the diuersitye of churches, the Lutherane, the Zwingliane, & the Geneuian. As though the diuersitie of some opinions, not of the greatest importāce, maketh diuers churches. The churche of Salisburie, the churche of Yorke, and the churche of Bangor, had some diuersitie in their maner of seruing God, and yet you will saie, thei were all one Popishe Churche. But to the purpose, you recite more names, then there be diuersities of opinions. For Zwinglius, and Caluine, in the matter of the Sacrament, whiche you shoote at, are all one, and Luther differeth from them. And yet the difference is not so great, but that thei bee all of one Catholike Churche, because thei agree in the onelyonly foundation, Iesus Christe, and in all opinions, that are necessary to Saluation, although Luther in his opinion of the Sacramente (as a man) was deceiued. And that diuersities of opinions (so longe as the principall groundes of faithe bee obserued vncorrupted) doeth not make diuersitie of churches, you maie easily see, by this example S. Cypriā and all the Churches of Affrica, were in this error, that such as were baptised by heretikes, should be baptised again, which was a very perilous errour. Cornelius, & Stephanus the Bishops of Rome, with the Churches of Europe were, in the contrary opinion. And yet no man euer refused S. Cypriane, to bee a member of the Catholike churche, nor iudged the churches of Affrica, that followed his errour, to bee of any other thē of ye vniuersall church of Christ, emong whom were many martyres, and godly men which liued & died in the same error. Now cōpare Cypriane, & Luther, the one erring in the Sacrament of Baptisme, the other in the Sacramente of the Supper, if the errour of th'one, did not separate hym from the communiō of the catholike church, no more cā the error of the other. Whiche thing, if it were well weighed, would remoue that stōblyng blocke, that troubleth many weake persones, but can hinder no learned man, cōcernyng the controuersie of Luther, and Zwinglius.
The third reason is, that we are departed, from the Churche of Geneua, because we ascribe supreme gouernement, in Ecclesiasticall matters, to the Quéenes highnes. Firste, we must bee bolde to tell you, that as we reuerence, and honour all particulare Churches, where true religion is established, so we doe not grounde our self vponupon either the opinion, or custome, of any one, but onelyonly vponupon the worde of God, and so farre foorthe to followe eueryevery one, as thei come neare to the same rule. But whereas you would sette that excellente, godly Churche of Geneua, at variaunce with vsus, aboute the supremacie, your childishe quarrellyng, shall easily appeare to all menne. You alledge Caluine againste vsus, in twoo places, one in his Institutions, an other in his Comentarie of the Prophet Amos. A man in deede, from whom we would bee lothe to dissente, excepte it were for a greate cause. A manne of suche godlie learnyng, and profounde knoweledge in diuinitie, as all the Papistes, that euer were, are not worthie to carrie his bookes after hym. But before I aunswer you, I muste admonishe you, that either your copies, whiche came to my handes, were verie muche corrupted, or els you hauehave recited those places by hearesaie, rather then by your owne obseruatiō. Your copies sendeth me to the, viij. Chapiter of his Institutions, namyng no booke, and to the fowerth. Chapiter of Amos, whereas that you speake of the one place, is in the fowerth boke, and twelue Chapiter of his Institutions: the other in the seuen Chapiter of Amos. So that in deede, it was more labour to seeke your places, then to make aunswere to them. Concerning the firste, I meruaile you were not ashamed, to alledge Caluine againste vsus, where he saieth, that Kynges, and Princes, are subiecte to the discipline of the Churche, as Theodosius was content to be excommunicated by saincte Ambrose, for the murther he had committed in Thessalonica, (which none of vsus denieth) and doe not remember, how substauncially he proueth, that godlie Princes hauehave aucthoritie, and ought to maintain true religion, by lawes decrees, and iudgementes, whiche is all the supreme gouernemente, that wee ascribe to the Quéenes highnes.
And as for the place of Caluine vponupon Amos, the truthe is this: Caluine findeth fault, not with kyng Hēry, but with those that did ascribe that title vntounto hym, and sheweth for what reason, he misliked the same. Not that he denied his lawfull aucthoritie, whiche was meant by that title, of all his godly, and true subiectes: but because, Steuen Gardener bishop of Winchester, by false vnderstandyng thereof, declared that he vnderstode nothing therby, but the tyrannie, whiche the Pope vsurpeth ouer the churche, to be translated vntounto the kyng. And therfore at a solemne cōference, at Ratisbone in Germanie, after the Popes aucthoritie by acte of Parliament, was abolished out of the realme, he defended all Popishe religion, whiche remained vnreformed, to bee good, and godlie, because it was established by the kings aucthoritie, who was supreme head of the churche. He disputed not by reasons, neither cared he for the testimonies of scriptures, but saied, it was in the kynges power, to abrogate all Lawes, and establishe what he thought good in the churche, as to forbidde Priestes marriage, to forbidde laie menne the vse of the Cuppe in the Churche, and all other suche matters, he saied, were in the kynges aucthoritie. This he saied of the Kynges power abroade, and howe he abused that noble Prince at home, to make the Acte of sixe Articles, and other thynges of like effect, there be many yet aliue, that can remember. But seeyng this title of supremacie, dooeth so muche offende you, I praie you lette me demaunde one question of you. Who did first inuent it here in England? Or who did first ascribe it to kyng Henry? Was it not the whole Popishe Cleargie of Englande? when thei were caste in the Premunire, for mainteinyng the power Legantine of Cardinall Wolsey, and submittyng theim selues vntounto the Kynge, they flattered hym with that title, and offered hym a greate somme of money, for their pardon: as witnesseth Halle, and Grafton in their histories, and ther be yet aliue many, that can remēber it. So that if there were any faulte in it, you should blame them, and not vsus for it. For so farforthe, as beyng rightly vnderstoode, it declareth the lawfull power of the Prince, wee did, and doe yelde vntounto it, but not in Steuen Gardiners sence, whiche Caluin in the place by you alledged, doeth cōfute.
After this, you require vsus to shewe you a Churche, where vntounto you maie resorte, whiche hath continued euen since Christ, whiche if it can not bee shewed, you conclude in th'ende, that Christ had no churche, or els our Churche is not Christes Churche. Againe where our Church was fiftie, or sixtie yeres agon. If a manne had asked of Elias, where the churche of God was in his tyme, he could not hauehave made aunswere, and yet God had his Churche in Elias tyme. The Churche is not alwayes apparaunte, to the iyes of the blynde worlde, in whiche she is a straunger, but is compelled sometymes to flie into the wildernesse, out of the sight of men, by the persecutiō of the deuill, and his members, as it is Prophesied in the xij. Chapiter of sainct Ihons Reuelation. And yet for fiftie or sixtie yere agone, it had been no harde matter, to hauehave shewed you diuers members of our Churche, bothe in Englande, & in Bohemia, as th' historie of the church declareth at large. Also in Fraunce at Merindoll, and about Lyōs, but these you will saie, agreed not with vsus in all poinctes, but I will aunswere you, thei agréed in the cheifest poinctes, necessary to eternall saluation. For whatsoeuer we are able to shewe, for our Churche, I am sure you are neuer able, to shewe your self, for your churche, that whiche you require vsus to shewe: namely a churche that hath continued from this tyme vpwarde, vntounto the Apostles, that taught vniformely, and in all poinctes, the doctrine that the Popishe Churche nowe teacheth. Whiche thyng when you hauehave performed, I will doe the like for oure Churche. In the meane time, that whiche is a sufficiente rule, to finde out the true Churche, by the iudgement of Saincte Augustine, I will declare vntounto you. In his booke the vnitate ecclesiae. Capi. 2. Inter nos autem & Donatistat, quaestio est, vbi sit ecclesia. Quid ergo facturi sumus? In verbis nostris eam quaesituri sumus, an in verbis capitis sui domini nostri Iesu Christi? Puto quod in illius potius verbis eam quaerere debemus, qui veritas est & optimè nouit corpus suum. Betwene vsus, and the Donatistes (saieth saincte Augustine) the question is, where the churche should bée. What shall we doe then? shall we seke her in our wordes, or in the woordes of her heade, our Lorde Iesus Christ? I thinke that rather in his wordes, we ought to seke her, which is the truthe, and beste knoweth his own bodie. And in the. xvj. chapiter of the same booke, he writeth thus of the Donatistes Vtrum ipsi ecclesiam teneant, non nisi diuinarū scripturarum canonicis libris ostendant. That is, whether thei hauehave the churche on their side, let theim shewe none otherwise, but by the Canonicall bookes of holy scriptures. Many other suche testimonies are in S. Augustine, by whiche it is plaine, that he geueth this infallible rule, to knowe the true churche, to examine the doctrine therof, onelyonly by the scriptures. But wheras you saie, that Anabaptistes, Libertines and Arians, pretende the word of god, and the primitiue Churche, what meane you therby? that we should forsake the worde of god & the Primitiue churche, by whiche all heretikes hauehave béen cōfuted, what soeuer thei pretended. For though heretikes pretende the scriptures, yet onelyonly by the scriptures thei are to be cōfuted, & though thei appeale to the iudgemente of the primitiue church, yet by the primitiue church thei are condemned for heretikes. I maie as well say, that Arianes, Libertines, and Anabaptistes, boste them selues to be the true Catholike Churche, therefore wee must not allowe the true catholike churche. It is pitie to see menne, that would be coumpted wise, and learned, to reason so fondly, and vnlearnedly. For of all other reasons, it is the vainest, and feeblest shift that the Papistes vse, to flie frō the scriptures, to the aucthoritie of the Churche, in confutation of heresies. For there was neuer yet heresie did arise, but there was as greate controuersie, of the Churche, as of the opinion: for eueryevery heretike, boasteth as well of the Churche, as of the scriptures, but when all is dooen, his bragges of bothe, muste bee beaten doune, onelyonly by the scriptures. But because you make so proude vauntes, that you will so plainlie proue, that our Churche hath none agreans with the primitiue churche of Christ, in discourse of that controuersie with you, I will sette for the bothe what is the Primitiue churche, and how we agree therewith, and I doubte not, but that I shalbee able by the grace of God, bothe to iustifie our cause, againste your false accusations, and also to ouerthrowe youre falshodde, whiche you hauehave heaped vppe, to ouerwhelme the truthe.
And as I hauehave confuted your sixe considerations, which vntounto you seme of greate importaunce, so by Gods helpe I shall auoide all other youre calumniations, in whiche with some subtiltie, but more impudencie, and moste of all impietie, you goe aboute to intangle the consciences, of suche as bee ignorante, and vnlearned, to withdrawe their obedience▪ from the godly lawes of this realme, whiche are established, for the mainteinyng of Gods true Religion, and the abolishyng of all Idolatrie, and superstition.
The Papiste.
Argumentes gathered out of the Scriptures, prouyng that this late reformed Englishe churche hath none agreans with the Primitiue churche of Christ.