A Confutation of a Popish and Slanderous Libel, Treatise · Answer 33 – Papist opinion 52
The aunswere.
This testimonie in effecte, is the same with the former. Sainct Augustin would hauehave suche Traditions, as hauehave alwaies been vsed in the Churche, to bee supposed, that either thei came from the Apostles, or from the generell Counsailes: but here wee hauehave, diligently to consider, that wée admitte not all suche thynges, as are called Traditions, but onelyonly suche as are vniuersally, and hauehave been alwaies vsed in the Churche. Secondely, that thei bee not contrary to the doctrine of the Apostles, conteined in the holie scriptures, for then it is moste certaine, thei are no Traditions of the Apostles, for thei did not deliuer one thyng in writyng, and a contrary thyng in Tradition. Thirdly, that whatsoeuer Tradition of the Apostles, is not conteined in the scriptures, although wee knewe it came from the Apostles, it is lawfull vponupon good consideration to alter it. For seyng that all necessarie matters, are conteigned in the scriptures, whatsouer thei deliuered, whiche is not conteined in the scriptures, was but temporall, & might be chaunged, aswell as the decree De sanguine et suffocato, of blood, & strangled.
And that we ought not to receiue, whatsoeuer is commended to vsus, as a Traditiō of the Apostles, maie appere by these exā ples. Irenaeus was a manne that liued nere to the age of the Apostles, for he sawe, as he hymself doeth testifie, Polycarpus the disciple of sainct Ihon. And he declareth that it was a Tradition, commonly receiued in Asia, as of sainct Ihon the Apostle, and of other of the Apostles, that our sauiour Christe liued fiftie yeres, whiche is contrary to the truthe of the Gospell. Irenaeus libri. 2. Cap. xxxv. If suche a fable could bee credited, for an Apostolike Tradition, so sone after the Apostles departure, what maie bee iudged of those, that in two hundreth, three hundreth, fiue hundreth, sixe hundreth, eight hundreth yeres after the Apostles, were not heard of, but sodainlie were sette out in the worlde, as Traditions of the Apostles. Eusebius also reporteth, libri. v. Cap. xviii. that it was alledged as a Traditiō of the Apostles, that Christ commaunded theim, not to departe from Hierusalem, twelue yeres after his ascension, whiche is manifestly contrary to the the historie of the Actes of the Apostles. Tertuliane after he was fallen into the errour of the Montanistes, voucheth the Tradition of the Apostles, against the Catholikes, whom he calleth Psychicos, that is, animales, naturall men, and not spirituall.
Ieronime in Euangel. Math. libr. 4. Cap. xxv. declareth that it was a Tradition emong the Iewes, that Christ should come at midnight, whervpon he gathereth, that the Tradition of the Apostles was deriued, that on Easter eue, the people should not depart out of the churche, before midnight, but tary there for the commyng of Christ. A likely matter, that the Apostles would make a Tradition, of the erroure of the Iewes. The same Ieronyme vponupon the firste Chapiter of Agge saieth verie well of the Apostolicall Traditions: Sed & alia quae abs que auctoritate, & testimonijs scripturarum quasi Apostolica traditione sponte reperiunt at que confingunt, percutit gladius dei. But other thinges also (speakyng of heretikes) whiche thei finde out, and feigne of them selues, without the aucthoritie, and testimonies of the scriptures, as it were by Tradition of the Apostles, the sworde of God dooeth strike. By these examples, and testimonies, it is manifeste, that wée must not by and by, receiue what soeuer is saied, to be a Tradition of the Apostles.
The Papiste.
Fowerth saincte Augustine in his thirde Epistle ad Ianuarium, in speakyng of these thinges, whiche in diuerse partes are obserued in christes Churche diuersely, he geueth that certeine and sure rule, that if thei be not against the professed faieth of christes churche, nor against the good liuyng and maners of men, but hauehave in theim some maner of encouragement of a better life, wheresoeuer saieth he we dooe knowe anie such thing diuersely to be vsed, we shal not only not disalow theim, but also folow thē, with praise, and innouation of life. So that the infirmitie and weakenes of some men be not let therunto. when otherwise if more profette maie come therby vntounto the good, then hurte vntounto the weake offended therby, sine dubitatione faciēda sunt, without doubte (saieth he) al suche although thei be diuerse, and in diuerse places diuersely obserued, yet they ought to be continued and kepte.
The aunswere.
Wée agree with sainct Augustine, that suche Ceremonies as are instituted for order, and comelinesse sake, beyng diuers in diuerse churches, if thei be not contrary to the Scriptures, are to bée obserued of suche, as remaine in those Churches. And what this should make, either for you, or againste vsus, I dooe not sée at all. For your Ceremonies, are voide of edifiyng, vnorderly, vndecent, for the churche of Christ, and then the opinion of merite, and satisfaction, that you ioigne vntounto them, beyng contrary to the Christian faithe, and the aucthoritie of the Scriptures, maketh thē to be vtterly abhominable. Furthermore when you make them essentiall partes of the religion, and worshippe of GOD, our sauiour Christe hym self, out of the Prophete Esaie, doeth vtterly condemne thē. For GOD will not be worshipped, with the doctrine, Traditions, and preceptes of menne. Matth. xv. Thus neither your ten reasōs, out of the scriptures, nor your ten argumentes out of the doctours, nor your fower bulwarkes out of S. Augustine, are able to defende your Popishe churche from ouerthrowe, whiche if she take vponupon her, to encounter with the truthe, muste needes bée discomfited, and come to vtter destruction.
The Papiste.
Besides that this refourmed Englishe churche, hath no agreaunce with the catholike churche of christe, the religion thereof doeth onelyonly stande of negatiues, like as it shall appeare in the processe followyng.
The aunswere.
Besides that your Rhetorike in railyng on our Churche, is verie vnreasonable, your Sophistrie it self, in quarellyng againste vsus, is voide of sufficient subtiltie: not onelyonly to defende it self, but at leaste wise, to hide it self. For what impudente kinde of arguing call you this: by enumeration of a fewe particulers, to conclude any vniuersall proposition? These newe reformators deny twentie thynges, whiche the Papistes affirme, ergo, their religion standeth onelyonly of negatiues. Maie not I likewise reason, the Papistes denie fourtie thynges, that the Protestauntes affirme: Ergo the Religion of Papistes, standeth onelyonly vponupon negatiues. Furthermore, whē eueryevery affirmatiue proposition implieth a negation of his contradictorie, and eueryevery negatiue propositiō, importeth an affirmation of his contradictorie, you maie as well saie, that it standeth altogether vponupon affirmatiues, as you dooe, vponupon negatiues. Like as in the tenne commaū dementes of GOD, onelyonly twoo are affirmatiue, and eight are negatiue, wherein all the duetie of a Christian manne consisteth, you might reason, that Gods commaundementes stande almoste all of negatiues, as though God did onelyonly tell vsus, what we should not doe, and did not teach vsus, what wée should dooe, like as you conclude afterward, vpō the sale of Clare the Butchers horse: but that right reason telleth vsus, that the prohibitiue Commaūdementes, are also preceptiue, and the preceptiue commaundementes, are also prohibitiue, for he whiche forbiddeth adulteterie, commaundeth a chaste life, and he whiche commaundeth to honour our parentes, forbiddeth vsus to disobey the same. But because faithe, whiche is the foundation of religion, is an affirmation of those thinges, whiche are beleued, to proue that our Religion standeth not all vponupon negatiues, but chiefly vppon affirmatiues, it shall bée sufficiente to declare that we beleue, and affirme all the articles of the Christian faithe, and what soeuer is affirmed in the woorde of God as truthe, like as wee denie all falshode, and vntruthe. We beleue, and affirme, that there is but one GOD: wée affirme that in this God-heade, there are three persones distincte, but not diuided. Wee affirme that the sonne of God was conceiued by the holie Ghoste, borne of the virgine Marie, and so foorthe, as it followeth in the Crede, by whiche it is manifeste, that our Religion standeth not all in negatiues.
The Papiste.
Saincte Augustine doth define religion to be cultus diuinus a diuine seruice dew vntounto God, wherby as Isidore saieth, wee dooe binde our selues to the worshipyng of God with a full purpose and intente to serue God. True religion beyng in this wise put in a dewe worshippe and seruice to be doen vntounto GOD, the late begonne religion of this reformed Churche, can not bee the true religion of GOD, for as muche as it doeth not consiste in any action or seruice more now vntounto God then was before, but onelyonly this religion standeth as I suppose by negatiues, by an ouerthrowe and subuersiō makyng of all thinges before appoincted for the gouernement of his people, both in the olde Testament and newe, some preceptes whiche were morall, some iudiciall, some ceremoniall, also sacrifice and sacramentes, the doctrine of this newe religion and reformed Churche, whiche as I saied dooeth stande onelyonly or wholy by negatiues doeth denie.
The aunswere.
I will not stande in argumente with you, whether this be a full difinition of religion, whiche you alledge out of Saincte Augustine. It is not by and by, a diffinitiō of Religion, whiche maie bee truely saied of Religion. But what should moue you to thinke, that our Religion teacheth not menne to worshippe God? When we onelyonly teache, the right kinde of Gods seruice, sette forthe in his woorde, whereas you, and all other heretikes, worshippe God after the preceptes of menne, which is no religion but superstition. You saie our religion doth not consist in any action or seruice, more nowe vntounto God then was before, but howe true this is, let eueryevery man iudge, when we ascribe all religious seruice, obedience, honour, faieth, inuocation, and thankes geuyng, onelyonly to God by our sauiour christe: wheras you giuegive the greatest parte thereof to creatures, some to Images, some to sainctes departed, some to your owne merites, some to your beggerlie Ceremonies. Let eueryevery man therefore iudge, whether our religion giuegive not more to God in Christ then you, when we giuegive all to God, the onelyonly aucthour of all goodnes, and Christe our only mediatour of all benefites to bee receiued of God, and you giuegive him but parte of al the seruice that is due to hym, and make so many mediatours beside our sauiour Christe. Finally, wher as you charge vsus, with the subuersiō of the preceptes moral, ceremonial and iudiciall, of Gods lawe it is a straunge matter to see your boldnes. What morall preceptes of God doe we gainsaie? doe wee not teache menne to obserue all the tenne Commaundementes? And what Ceremonial lawes remaine there, to vsus which were not vtterly abrogated by Christ? As for the iudiciall preceptes of the Iewishe lawe, who euer required the christians to be bounde vntounto theim? The onelyonly propiciatorie sacrifice of Christes Passion, wee embrace, & al Sacramentes of christes institution. Wherfore we neither stande al vppon negatiues, neither denie we anie thing, that we ought to affirme as true.
The Papiste.
First it denieth that the morall preceptes are possible to be kepte of man.
The aunswere.
It shal not be néedefull our doctrine, beyng so commonly knowen to the worlde, to make a large discourse, vponupon eueryevery one of these negatiues, but onelyonly to declare briefly, how we denie them, and to shewe a reason of our deniall. We denie in deede that it is possible for any manne, excepte Christe onelyonly, to keepe the morall preceptes of God. Which is not suche a straunge paradoxe, to any man that is not a starke hypocrite, but his owne conscience will testifie the same vntounto hym. The morall preceptes are conteined in these twoo poinctes, as our sauiour testifieth: Thou shalte louelove the Lorde thy GOD, with all thy harte, with all thy soule, with all thy strengthe, and thy neighbour as thy self. Who is so paste all feare of God, that he dare affirme, that he is able to performe this? Againe, what is the cause, that the scripture dooeth so often pronounce, that no man can be iustified by the woorkes of the lawe? but because no manne can fulfill the lawe. Whiche if a man could performe, he should liue therein, and hauehave eternall saluation without Christe, but no man can bee saued without Christ, therefore no manne can fulfill the lawe. For the lawe was giuē, to shewe vsus our weakenesse, and so to bring vsus to Christ.
The Papiste.
Seconde it denieth that any iudgement in spirituall causes, or in the high courte of conscience, is to be geuen to the Prieste.
The aunswere.
The high courte of conscience, is Gods owne iurisdiction, the iudgement whereof, perteineth neither to Prieste, nor laie manne, but to God alone. But in causes spirituall, to iudge according to the worde of God, wee dooe not deny, but it pertaineth to Ecclesiasticall persones, from whiche rule of iustice, if any of theim departe, he is subiecte to the correction, and punishemente of the Ciuile Magistrate, As Aaron had his aucthoritie of iudgemēt in Spirituall causes, yet was he reproued by Moises. And Abiathar the high Priest, was deposed by Salomon, and Sadoc sett vp in his place. And should not Ahaz, if he had been a godlie Prince, hauehave deposed Vriah, for makyng the prophane alter?
The Papiste.
Thirde it dooeth denie all kinde of Ceremonies.
The aunswere.
Wee denie all kinde of Ceremonies, that are of mannes inuention, to worship God, or to merite saluation by them. For in the worshippe of God, wee muste dooe onelyonly that he commaundeth vsus. Other Ceremonies that are onelyonly for order, and decencie, ordeined in the Churche, wée receiue, as I hauehave often shewed before.
The Papiste.
Fowerth it doeth denie the sacrifice of christes Testamente.
The aunswere.
The Sacrifice propitiatorie, that onelyonly taketh awaie the synnes of the worlde, is the Sacrifice, whiche Christe offered ones for all, vponupon the aulter of the crosse, and thereby makyng perfecte for euer, those that are sanctified, can not be repeated, without horrible iniurie dooen vntounto the Passion of Christe, and the merites thereof. Hebr. vij. ix. x. and almost through out the whole Epistle. In deede the Sacrifice of the Masse▪ if it bee the Sacrifice ye meane, wée vtterly deteste, as blasphemous, and abhominable. For whiche you hauehave neither commaundemente, nor example of Christe, what soeuer you pretende, by these woordes of our Sauiour, Dooe this in remembraunce of me. For besides that, to celebrate the remēbraunce of Christe in the Sacramente, hath nothyng to dooe with a Sacrifice, by those woordes it is easie to proue, that you can offer vp no Sacrifice, in the celebration of the Sacramente. For by this woorde of Christe (dooe this) you can dooe no more, but that whiche Christe then did. But Christe did then offer no Sacrifice of his bodie, therefore you can offer no Sacrifice of his bodie. That Christe did then offer no Sacrifice of his bodie, is manifeste by the Apostle to the Hebrues, whiche often tymes testifieth, that he offered hym self but ones, whiche was on the Crosse, Chapit. vij. ix. x. therefore he did not offer hym self on the table at his supper, as you moste falsely surmise.
The Papiste.
Fifte it dooeth denie the Sacramentes of christes churche.
The aunswere.
Wee receiue the Sacramente of Baptisme, and of the Lordes Supper, which onelyonly wee finde in the scripture, the other fiue, whiche you call Sacramentes, because we finde theim not in the scripture, instituted of Christe, in the nature of Sacramentes, we dooe not receiue theim as Sacramentes. Matrimonie, Confirmation, election of Ecclesiasticall ministers, with their aucthoritie, as wee finde theim by the woorde of God, so wee retaine the pure institution of theim, refusyng the corruption, and superstition builded vponupon them, by Antichriste. Extreme vnction, is an idle Ceremonie, and nothyng pertainyng to our tyme, as I hauehave declared before, & for that cause is iustely abrogated.
The Papiste.
Sixte it doth denie the real presence of christes bodie and blood in the holy Eucharist.
The aunswere.
Wée dooe not denie the reall presence of Christes bodie, to the faithe of him that receiueth worthely. But the carnall, and grosse immagination of transubstanciation, whiche is contrary to the scriptures, whiche teacheth that the bodie of christe, is like vntounto our bodies, in all thynges, synne excepted, and therefore can not bee in diuerse places at one tyme, and is also contrary, to the doctrine openly taught in the Churche, for seuen or eight hundreth yeres after Christe. For Bertramus did write his treatise, as some thinke, to Carolus Caluus, whiche liued eight hundreth yeres after Christe.
The Papiste.
Seuenth it dooeth denie that Christes Churche is visible or possible heare to bee knowen.
The aunswere.
We denie, that the Churche of Christ is visible, to the worlde, at all tymes, because our sauiour Christ prophecieth, that the moste parte of the worlde should bee deceiued by false Prophetes. Math. xxiiij. and S. Paule prophesieth, of the generall apostasie, that should bee made by Antichriste. Sainct Ihon also in the Reuelation sheweth, that the Churche should flie into the wildernesse, and all the worlde should worshippe Antichriste. Apoca. xij. and. xiij. Wherefore the Churche is not alwaies in sight of the worlde, although it bee sometyme deliuered from suche extreme persecution, as it is, God bee thanked at this tyme.
The Papiste.
Eight it doeth denie the free choise and will of man.
The aunswere.
Wée affirme, that Adam by his falle, loste the fredome of his will, bothe in him self, and from his posteritie. So that a mā hath nowe no freedome of will, so muche as to thinke a good thoughte. ij. Corin. iij. much lesse to do we any good of our selues. Whiche seeyng it is the iuste iudgemente of God, vponupon Adam, and his posteritie, for synne, we make not God aucthour of euil, as prophane dogges doe barke against vsus, or rather against God, but iuste in all his iudgementes, and holie in all his waies. But of free wille, I shall hauehave occasion to speake more hereafter, toward the latter ende of your discourse.
The Papiste.
Ninth it dooeth denie our iustification by penance, by Baptisme, by hope, by charitie and good workes.
The aunswere.
Wée affirme with saincte Paule, that a manne is iustified before God by faithe, without the deedes of the lawe. Rom. iij. not that deade faithe, whiche saincte Iames speaketh of, but a liuely, and fruictefull faithe, that woorketh by louelove. But of iustification, I muste speake more hereafter.
The Papiste.
Tenth it dooeth denie the merites of all good workes, Gods promises made to the contrarie notwithstandyng.
The aunswere.
Wee affirme, that all good woorkes, shall be rewarded by God, for his promise sake, but neither for worthines of them, nor for the worthines of vsus. For the worthinesse of theim, deserueth nothyng, because thei are vnperfecte. And our worthinesse in doyng theim, dooeth merite nothyng, because thei proceade of God, and not of vsus, and secondly, because our synnes are many more in noumber, then our good deedes. And when we hauehave dooen all that wee are bidden, wee are vnprofitable seruauntes, Luke the. xvij. therefore wee deserue nothyng by theim, but that GOD of his infinite merciemercy, vouchsaueth for his promise sake in Christe, to accepte them, and reward them.
The Papiste.
Eleuenth it doeth denie fastyng from any one kinde of meate more then an other, or vponupon this daie more then an other.
The aunswere.
To teache men to abstaine from meates, and marriage, is the doctrine of Deuilles. j. Timo. iiij. Otherwise true faste we deny not, but affirme, and commende as hath been declared ones, or twise before.
The Papiste.
Twelft it doeth denie tyme and daies of watches and praiers.
The aunswere.
We deny the superstitious obseruation of daies and tymes, but wee affirme, allowe, and vse certaine daies, and tymes appoicted for praier, and godlie exercises. By watches, if you meane your vigiles, of sainctes daies, you your selues vse onelyonly the name, and not the obseruatiō of those watches. Whiche although thei were vsed of olde in the Churche, yet for diuers inconueniences, thei were lefte of, and by decree of the Counsaile Elibertinū abrogated Can. 35.
The Papiste.
Thirtene it doeth denie the obseruation of holy and solemne promises, and vowes made vntounto God.
The aunswere.
We doe not denie the obseruations of any lawfull promises, made vntounto GOD, that are possible to bee kepte of those that make theim. But wee teache menne, not to bee rashe in makyng promises, before thei bee sure, that thei are able to performe them. And if thei hauehave made a rash or vnaduised vowe, as to abstaine from Marriage, whiche thei are not able to obserue, but by committyng fornication, and vncleannesse, wee counsaile theim to repente of their rashenesse, and to retourne to the ordinaunce of GOD, whiche is the remeadie of incontinence, rather then to leade an abhominable life, in filthinesse.
The Papiste.
Fowertene it dooeth denie the chaste life apertainyng to the order of Priesthode.
The aunswere.
We affirme, that chaste life appertaineth to all menne, and especially to Ecclesiasticall ministers. But we do not compt marriage an vnchaste life, as you doe, but holie, and honourable in all menne, and the marriage bedde to be vndefiled. Hebr. xiij. And seeyng that the holie ghoste by sainct Paule, in his Epistles to Timothe and Titus, describyng the beste qualities required in Bishoppes, and Deacons, allowed marriage, wee dare not presume to disalowe it, or to forbidde any man from it, leaste wee should teache the doctrine of Deuilles, as you doe.
The Papiste.
Fiftene ie doth deny the inuocation, and honour due vntounto sainctes.
The aunswere.
Howe shall wee call vppon theim, in whom we dooe not beleue? Roma. x. We beleue onelyonly in God, therefore wee call vponupon God onelyonly. We acknowledge no mediatour of God and men, but onelyonly Iesus Christe. j. Timoth. ij. Neither of redemption, nor intercession: For the Apostle in that place speaketh purposely of intercession, saiyng, I besech you therfore brethrē, that praiers, supplications, &c. bée made for all men. And as for honour that should be due to sainctes, we acknowledge none, beyng taught by so many places of Scripture, that al honour, and glorie, belongeth onelyonly to God: who is a ielous GOD, and will not giuegive his honour to any other. Wherefore as Augustine saieth, honoramus eos charitate, non seruitute, wee honour theim with louelove, and not with seruice, by whiche testimonie of that godlie manne, your blinde distinction of latria, and doulia is ouerthrowen, for what is doulia, but seruitus? Whiche kinde of honour, sainct Augustine, doeth vtterly deny to be giuen to sainctes. August. De vera religione. Capi. 55. The same Augustine dooeth also declare, wherein their honour doeth consist, namely, in followyng of their example. Honorandi sunt propter imitationem, non adorandi propter religionem. Thei are to be honoured for imitations sake, not to bée whorshipped for religions sake. And you your self diffined religion before, to be cultus diuinus, the seruice due vntounto GOD, howe would you then that true Religion, should dooe any seruice to menne, or Angelles, whiche are but creatures of God.
The Papiste.
Sixtene it dooeth denie oblations and praiers for the soules departed.