A Confutation of a Popish and Slanderous Libel, Treatise · Answer 26 – Papist opinion 33
The Aunswere.
It is a proper Primitiue Churche, whiche you alledge of the seconde Counsaile of Nice, whiche was seuen hundred eightie and one yeres after Christe, holden by a multitude of Idolatrous, flatteryng, and vnlearned Prelates, whiche to feede the humor of that wicked Empresse Irene, were gathered together, not in the name of Christ, but against Christ, whose expresse commaundemente, thei did impugne. And with suche leude, and vnsensible reasons, and wrestynges of the scriptures, that if a manne of purpose, to mocke the Idolaters, woud inuente argumentes to laugh at, hee coulde not diuise more ridiculous matters. God made manne after his owne Image, ergo wee muste make Images, God is meruailous in his sainctes, ergo we must make Images. (Theodofius of Amorie reasoneth, whatsoeuer is written, is written for our learnyng, ergo wee must hauehave Images to teache vsus.) No manne lighteth a candell, and putteth it vnderunder a Bushell, ergo Images must bee sette on the Alters, with a hundreth suche substanciall proofes. And to make the matter mooste manifeste, Theodorus bishop of Myre, proueth that Images must be worshiped by his Archedeacons dreames, and so dooeth other by dreames, and miracles, and at laste, Tharasius Archebishoppe of Constantinople, with the whole Synode concludeth, that Angelles hauehave bodies, and mennes soules also be bodily, and therefore thei maie bee paincted. Againste this Idolatrous, vnlearned, and blasphemous Counsaile, Carolus Magnus wrote a booke, whiche is extante, in whiche he confuteth the grosse heresie, of adoration of Images.
As for the primatiue churche of Christ, regardyng the seconde commaundement of God, did make no kinde of Images, to bee had in any vse of religion, but vtterly forbad them. As for the Image of Christ, whereof Eusebius speaketh, if it were true, was onelyonly a monumente of the historie, sette vp in the streate, in remembraunce of the miracle, not in the churche to bee had in veneration, or worshipped. duplicate page duplicate page Neither was there any Image receiued into the Churche, for three hundreth yeres after Christe. The Epistle of Epiphanius, translated by saincte Hierome, is a notable testimonie.
Cum venissem ad villam quae dicitur Anablatha, vidissem que ibi praeteriens lucernam. &c. When I came to a village, whiche is called Anablatha, and sawe there as I passed by, a candell burnyng, and inquiryng what place it was, and vnderstandyng that it was a Churche, I entered in, to praie, and founde there a vaile, or linnen clothe, hangyng at the doore of the saied churche, stained, and painted, and hauyng an Image as it were of Christ, or of some saincte. For I dooe not well remember, whose Image it was. Therefore when I sawe, this thing, that the Image of a man was hanged vp, in the Churche, contrary to the aucthoritie of the Scriptures, I did rende it in péeces, and gaue counsaile to the kepers of that place, rather to wrappe it about some poore bodie that was deade, to burie hym with all. Contrariwise, thei murmured, and saied. If he would néedes rende it, it were reason, he should giuegive vsus an other vaile for it, and so chaunge it. Whiche thing when I heard, I promised, that I would giuegive theim one, aad sende it shortlie. There passed not long tyme, but that I sought to sende theim a verie good vaile for it. For I thought that one shoulde hauehave been sente me out of Cypres. And nowe I hauehave sente suche a one, as I could gette. And I praie you to commaunde the Elders of that place, to receiue that Vaile of this bearer, whiche is sente by vsus. And to giuegive theim charge, that hereafter in the Churche of Christe, suche vailes bee not hanged vp, whiche are contrary to our Religion. This writeth Epiphanius to Ihon bishoppe of Hierusalem, by whiche it is euidente, what was thought of Images, at that tyme, when a painted vaile, might not bée hanged before a Churche doore, to keepe out the winde, or for some suche purpose, and not in any respect of religion, or worshipping. The same Epiphanius, emong the heresies of Carpocrates rehearseth, that he made priuilie the Image of Iesu, & Paule Homer, and Pithagoras, and worshipped them. Also he inueigheth sharply against the Antidicomarians, and Collyridians, for vsyng, and worshippyng the Image of Marie the Virgine. As for your testimonies, out of Gregorie Nyssene, and Chrysostome, serue nothyng to the purpose, for Gregorie speaketh not of the historie of Christes passion, as you vntruely report, but of the oblation of Isaac, by his father Abraham. Conc. Nicen. 2. actione. iiij. But this picture was in some priuate place, not in the Churche, and place of worshippyng.
And Chrysostome in his saiyng, concludeth not, that therefore we must hauehave Images of GOD, and of Christe in the Churche, but he that doeth iniurie to any manne, that is made after the Image of god, or disobeieth a Magistrate, which representeth the persone of God. &c. He doth iniurie to God. For he that maketh any Image of God, doeth God greate iniurie, transformyng the glorie of the inuisible GOD, into the shape of any corruptible creature. Rom. j. But what Chrysostome and diuers other godlie fathers, thought of the vse of Images, in the churche, is exdressed in the counsaile of Ephesus, which condemned Images before the Counsaile of Nice, whiche restored theim. And the Counsaile Elibertinum, fower hundreth yeres before that, vnderunder Constantine the greate, made this decree. Capt. xxxvi. Placuit picturas in ecclesia esse non debere, ne quod colitur aut adoratur, in parietibus depingatur. That is. It is thought good, that pictures ought not to bée in the Churche, leaste that thyng, whiche is worshipped, and honoured, should bee painted on the walles. To conclude, that whiche you alledge out of Beda, concernyng Dan Augustine the Monke, I will aunswere by the aucthoritie of sainct Augustine the Bishoppe: who in his boke De consensu Euāgelistarum libr. i. Capit. 10. Speakyng of certaine Heathen aduersaries, whiche noumbred Paule emong the twelue Apostles, that were with Christe, while he liued, writeth in these woordes. Credo quod pluribus locis simul eos cum illo pictos viderunt, quià merita Petri, & Pauli etiam propter eundem passionis diem celebrius, & solemniter Roma commendat. Sic omnino errare meruerunt, qui Christum, & Apostolos eius, non in sanctis codicibus, sed in pictis parietibus quaesierunt. I beleue that in many places thei sawe theim painted together with hym, because the Citie of Rome, commendeth the worthinesse of Peter, and Paule, more notably, and solemnely, because of the same daie of their sufferyng. So altogether thei were worthie to bée deceiued, whiche sought Christ and his Apostles, not in the holie scriptures, but in painted walles. And so all thei that followed your Augustines superstitions, were iustely blinded, and deceiued, because thei sought not Christ in the scriptures, but in painted Tables, whiche is the punishemente due for Idolatrie, as sainct Paule testifieth. Roma. j.
The Papiste.
Eight in the primatiue church the maner of fastyng was merueilous streight, in so much that Faustus Manicheus. 1300. yeres agoe, did taxe the christiane men, that they should in tyme of Lente, absteine from all meate, that is spoken of by the Apostle. S. Paule in the first to Timothy the fowerth Chapiter. And did blaspheme the doyng and teachyng of Christes churche to be doctrinam daemoniorum. But Ierome vponupon the same place doth make answere, like as sainct Augustine in manie places, that the church in their fasting to absteine from meate, not therby to condemne any kynde of meate, as Manichaeus did, but for penance, and to subdue the carnall concupiscens, and suche other like good purposes▪ And farther for the streight fasting in the primitiue Churche. S. Iheronime writeth ad Nepotianum, Epiphanius in Anchorato, whiche is nowe thought of these reformatours to be superfluous and folishe, and therfore they mind not to reduce and bring vsus to the order of the primitiue churche.
The aunswere.
Concernyng Fastyng, I hauehave spoken sufficiently, in aunswere of your tenth argumente, out of the scriptures, where you make mention of fastyng also. Euseb. lib. v. Capit. xviij. Testifieth that Montanus the heretike, was the firste that prescribed lawes of fastyng, whom you followe altogether. And especially the heretikes call Archontici, of whom Epiphanius writeth lib. i. Tom. iij. Here. 40. whiche pretended fastyng, but obserued none in deede, and the Manichees of whom S. Augustine testifieth, that vnderunder colour of abstinence, thei refrained from eatyng of any liuyng thyng, and from drinkyng wine, yet did thei glutte, and pamper theim selues with delicate frutes, and spices, with drinke made of the iuice of Dates, &c. such was your Popishe faste: on Fridaies at Dinner, to eate no fleshe, but as muche fishe, as the beallie would holde, with good store of wine, at night to eate no liuyng creatures, but Figges, Reasons, Almondes, Wardens, and Quinces baked, Suckette, and Marmelade, and other fruites conserued with good wine, or Hipocras to helpe digestion. This was a straight kind of faste, yet this was Catholicke enough, so long as greate Prelates vsed it.
The Papispte.
Ninth in the primitiue churche, they vsed praier for the soules departed, whiche was the tradition of the Apostles, as witnesseth Dyonysius Areopagita de caelesti Hierarchia. Cap. 7. Epiphanius Chrisostom in. 1. ad Cor. Hom. 41. & in Math. 33. & Hō. 69. ad populum Antiochenum, whiche thinge is proued also by the Scriptures, affirmed of all auncient writers, and hath alwaies been continued in Christes Churche, and now denied and taken awaie by oure reformatours, and therefore they minde no to reduce vsus to the primitiue churche.
The aunswere.
I must needes confesse, that praier for the deade, is one of the oldeste heresies, that the Papistes doe maintaine, and yet hath it no aucthoritie of Gods worde, nor of the primitiue Churche, for twoo hundreth yeres after Christe. Thei vsed in deede, to make mention of theim, at the celebration of the Communion, and to giuegive God thankes for them, whiche some tyme is called a Sacrifice offered for thē, as of Cypriane. Lib. iiii. Epist. v. Speaking of Martyres, of whom none doubteth, but thei were in heauen, and neded no praiers to bee made for them. Sacrificia pro eis semper vt meministis offerimus, quoties martyrum passiones & dies anniuersaria commemoratione celebramus. That is: Wee offer Sacrifice for theim alwaies, as you remember, so often as wee celebrate the passion, or dayes of the Martyres, by yerely commemoration. But this vnproper kinde of speakyng, and bolde attemptes, without scripture to name the deade in the Communion, did bréede in the posteritie, many errours, as praier for the deade, the Sacrifice of the Masse for the deade, Purgatorie, and suche other. But in this nineth argumente, you bewraie your fraudulent dealing in the other, for here you note the places of the doctours, whiche you knowe no manne will denie, and in other places, where you affirme, that none of vsus will graunte, you alledge their names onelyonly, without quotyng the places.
The Papiste.
Tenth in the Primitiue churche christen men were taught, to arme them selues with the signe of the Crosse, whiche consignatiō of the Crosse was vsed in the administration of the Sacramentes, and that of necessitie, as sainct Augustine saieth: wordes also of inuocation before the consecration of the Sacrament of the Aulter, were vsed in the primitiue churche, like as the sanctifiyng of the Fonte, the blessyng also of the Chrisme and Oyle, to annoincte the partie baptized, all which thinges were of the traditions of the Apostles, as witnesseth Basili. sainct Cyprian, sainct Augustine, Damas, and many other▪ whiche thinges beeyng now vtterly abolished by the newe reformatours, they purpose not to bring vsus to the order of the Primitiue churche. Seeyng therefore it can not bee denied by so many testimonies gathered out of the diuine Scriptures, and holy fathers, that they agree not with the primitiue churche of christe, but doe dissent and are cleane gone from it, in so many diuerse poinctes as I hauehave expressed. Therefore this their reformation to reduce vsus to the primitiue churche, is onelyonly pretended of their partes and shall neuer be proued.
The aunswere.
You leape to, and fro, backwarde, and forwarde, more like to one that daunseth, then that disputeth, HaueHave wée not hearde enough before, of crossyng, and blessyng, of Oile, and Chrisme? But thei must now be repeated againe, whiche if thei were graunted to you, and vsed of vsus, as thei were in tyme of those doctours, whose names you recite, what had you gained ther by? It is your blasphemous doctrine, that me doe moste abhorre, and your Ceremonies, we hate the more, for your doctrines sake. You should therefore stande to the defence of your doctrine, and not fight so egerly for your Ceremonies, if you would vse good pollicie. Nowe for these obseruations, I hauehave aunswered before sufficiently, by whiche, as by the reste of myne answeres, I truste it shall appeere, to eueryevery manne of indifferente iudgemente, that notwithstandyng, all your twentie argumentes of bothe sortes, our Churche hath suche conformitie, and agremente with the primitiue Churche of Christe, that she maie bee truely compted a member of the same, and partaker in the communion of all the sainctes of God.
The Papiste.
Of what force, streingth, and estimatiō those thinges are of, whiche hauehave been vsed in christes catholike churche, it shal appeare by these testimonies of sainct Augustine followyng.
The aunswere.
Before you had spoken of the force of those matters, you should hauehave doen well to hauehave considered the force of your argumentes, whiche, howe stronge so euer those thinges bee, are to weake to proue that, whiche you propounde, namely. that our Churche hath none agreaunce at all, with the Primitiue Churche of Christe. But seyng you will needes sette for the dignitie of these matters, wee will seuerally consider, all these fower argumentes.
The Papiste.
Firste sainct Augustine writyng againste the Donatistes, saieth, looke what thinges the vniuersall church of christe obserue, and hath at all tymes obserued, if the same bee not ordeined by any generall counsell, thē it ought most firmely to be beleued, that it came to vsus onelyonly by the auctoritie, and tradition of the Apostles.
The aunswere.
Although I knowe what to thinke of vnwritten Traditions, yet if you bee able to proue, that al these thinges wherof you speake, the vniuersall Churche of Christ, doeth, and hath alwaies obserued, I will yelde to you, that thei are the Tradition of the Apostles, accordyng to your testimonie, whiche if you canne not doe, (as I am well assured, you will neuer bee able to dooe it) by your owne reason, and aucthoritie, we neede not holde theim for Traditions of the Apostles, nor yet decrees of generall Counsailes.
The Papiste.
Second sainct Augustine in hys Epistle ad Casulanum, saieth, how in all these thinges, whereof the Scriptures hath made no certeine determination, the maner of the people of god▪ or decrees of our elders, must be taken and holden as a lawe to gouerne our selues, and in the same Epistle he maketh mention how the Sondaie, because it is not fasted, whiche fastyng is a Sacrifice acceptable to God▪ Therefore saieth he, the Sondaie maie not bee celebrated and kepte without an other Sacrifice whiche is acceptable to God.
The aunswere.
The Scripture hath determined of all necessarie articles of faithe, and againste all superstitious opinions, and Ceremonies. And these thynges you speake of, we proued to bee suche, therefore in theim by Saincte Augustines rule, neither the custome of people, nor the decrees of elders muste take place, but the aucthoritie of Goddes woorde. But of suche thynges as bee variable Ceremonies, for edification, order, and comelinesse sake, diuers particuler Churches, maie make particuler decrees, whiche are nothyng preiuditiall to the vniuersall Churche of Christ, whiche is the principall argumente that saincte Augustine handeleth, in that 86. Epistle to Casulanus, where he defendeth the custome of the moste parte of the Churche, againste the custome of the Churche of Rome. As I hauehave touched before, whiche thyng, of you will in no wise bee allowed. And as concernyng the Sacrifice he speaketh of, to bee celebrated on Sondaie, he meaneth not the propiciatorie Sacrifice of the Masse, as perhaps you would seme to inferre. But the celebration of the communion, for thus he writeth in the same Epistle against Vrbicus. Dicit cessisse pani pecus, tanquam nesciens & tunc in domini mensa, panes propositionis poni solere, & nunc se de agni immaculati corpore partem sumere, dicit cessisse poculo sanguinem, nō cogitans etiam nunc se accipere in poculo sanguinem. He saith that the Shepe hath giuen place to the breade, as though he were ignoraunt, that then also the Shewbread, was vsed to bée sette on the Lordes boarde, and that now also he taketh parte of the bodie of the immaculate Lambe: he saieth that bloodde hath giuen place to the Cuppe, not consideryng that now also, he receiueth bloode in the Cuppe. These woordes declare, bothe that the Sacrifice was nothyng but the Communion, and also that the wine is none otherwise called bloodde, then the bread is called a lambe, and that the bread in nature, and substaunce is suche, as was the Shewbreade, in whiche was no transubstantiation, and thirdely, the necessitie of the Communion in both kindes, if this analogie of Augustine must stande, wherfore sainct Augustine in this Epistle, maketh little for your purpose.
The Papiste.
Thirde saincte Augustine in his thirde Epistle ad Ianuarium saieth, that the thinges whiche we doe obserue throughout the whole worlde, beyng not written, but deliuered vntounto vsus, either from the Apostles or generall counselles (the aucthoritie wherof is notable) and as of theim receiued, ought to be obserued, as the yerely remembrance and feastes of the passion of Christe, of his ascention into heauen, and of the cōmyng of the holy ghost, whiche are celebrate in the Churche of Christe, or any other like thing whiche is vniuersally obserued from whatsoeuer it first came fro, and therefore saieth sainct Augustine in the same Epistle, to reason or dispute why the same thinge ought to be obserued, whiche of long tyme hath been obserued throughout the whole world, by the auctoritie of christes church, insolentissima insania est, it is a poincte saieth he of extreme madnes. And therfore saieth saincte Aug. the chaunge made of so long a custome, yea though the same shoulde be verie profitable, yet by the newnes thereof it doeth vexe and trouble the Churche of Christe, it is made vnprofitable, vnfruictful and finally hurtfull to the church of christ, and for an example therof, he doth there alledge how the disciples of christ did receiue the body and blood of christe, not fastinge but after supper, is the vniuersall church of christe therefore to be reproued, or the custome therof to be chaunged, whereby wee do in the same, receiue the body and blood of christe fastyng, and that for a more reuerence therunto, in preferryng the foode of the soule, before the foode of the bodie? doubtles so for to doe it, shoulde bee after the minde of Augustine, both hurtfull vntounto the churche of christ, and a greate ponct of madnesse.