Dialogue Wherein a Romish Rhyme is Confuted, Chapter 2

Dialogue Wherein a Romish Rhyme is Confuted · Chapter 2

p. 18CHAPTER II.

Philomathes.

GOD saue you, Masters.

Philadelphus.

GOD saue you, Philomathes, and you Eriphilus. Doe your Effaires lye this way?

Eriphilus.

This same is our way: and though it were not, yet wee had reason to offer you the duetie of Convoy; so, as if it bee not displeasant vntounto you, wee will, for a space, keepe you companie.

Philadelphus.

Your companie is to vsus verie acceptable.

Eriphilus.

But, I pray you, good Sir, was it not the Minister, Theriomachus, who, a little hence, did part from you?

Philadelphus.

You hauehave judged rightlie.

Eriphilus.

And how falleth it, for all his Clergie, that, now in almost halfe a yeare, hee cannot finde an Answere to one Sheete of Paper? which yet hee received, with no small presumption, that, how-so-ever Pitch was defiling, yet hee re…mbled an hote Tongs, which could contract no Contagion there-by.

Philadelphus.

By what Logicke will you inferre, (Eriphilus) because hee hath made no Answere there-to, that, therefore, hee could finde none to giuegive it? Know you not, that by the holie Ghost His owne Testimonie, it is some-times foolishnesse to make answere? And yet how are you bolde to affirme, hee hath not answered it? HaueHave you heard all the Conference hee ever had, with the partie-presenter of that Sheete of Paper, since the time hee received it? Hee hath written nothing there-to (you will say.) But from the defect of a written Answere, to conclude of no answere at all, it is an halting argumentation. And ha… honest men, p. 19thinke you, who are busied in their publicke Callings, nothing else a-doe, but to waste time and travell, in intertaining Plea with Contentions, and ydle humours, vponupon everie pievish Pamphlet, put out by them, of thinges a thousand times refuted?

To answere ought, is but a labour bootlesse.

When curious Questions are in pryde proposed.

On Soules fore-stall'd, all travell tane is fruitlesse:

For Light is but to lowlie myndes exposed.

Manie protest, them vprightlie disposed,

Singlie to search, and receiue Institution:

Who, yet, keepe that with-in their Breastes inclosed,

Which barreth out all better Resolution.

Who with him-selfe concludes, sine counsell craveth,

According to his Idoles hee receiveth.

Philomathes.

You hauehave set downe, in your Sonnet, a most certaine trueth. For my selfe, I protest, I ever abhorred all contention, and bitternesse in disputing. And, who for anie other ende maintaine Argument, but in an vpright and calme care, to finde out Trueth, they are both displeasant to others, and vnprofitable to themselues. But seeing that Eriphilus hath casten in this matter, and wee hauehave so convenient occasion of Eubulus companie, and the time shall bee, so well spent; I would intreat Eubulus, that, if hee hath ought to answere to these Questions, hee will vouchsafe to speake it: and this, I protest, I require, in vprightnesse; because I doe thinke, there bee diverse of them, to which, hardlie, shall hee finde anie good answere.

Eubulus.

I never refused to conferre calmlie with anie, butI. I hate contention: and if you (Philomathes) jumpe with mee in this humour, I will obey your request the more gladlie; and, I hope, our Conference shall not bee altogether fruitlesse. HaueHave you, then, these Questions by you? and, if not, I can, perhaps, supplie your want.

Philomathes.

I hauehave them heere, and will reade them to yo… p. 20in order: yet I am glad, that you hauehave alreadie seene them, for you may answere the more resolutelie to each. This, then, is the Inscription:

A proper new Ballad, where-in is contained Catholicke Questions, to the Protestant.

Eriphilus.

I perceiue that you are alreadie acquainted with it. How say you then, (Philadelphus) is it not, indeede, a proper Ballad?

Philadelhpus.

How proper his Ballad is, let poëts judge. Out of my little skill, I may boldlie affirme, that, for anie, either grace it bringeth to his Arte, or credite to his Cause, hee might right well hauehave contented him-selfe to speake in Prose: but his forme is good aneugh for his matter; and hee is, I warrand you, no worse Poët than hee prooveth, evidentlie, a weake Divine.

Reason and Ryme, if sweetlie they bee sembled,

Implant in Men the pleasanter Impression:

Quicke Arguments, with Eloquence enaembled,

Draw contrare Myndes, more quicklie to Confession.

But, of true Fayth, if vnderunder false Profession,

Songs bee made Syropes, but to sweeten Errours,

Prudence will spye, and keepe of Trueth possession,

Vnsnar'd with Syrens, or yet tost with Terrours.

But that's soone seene, which wants both Sause & Season:

Your raving Man hath neither Ryme nor Reason.

Eriphilus.

It is by evincing Syllogismes, I trow, and not by invectiue Sonnets, (Philadelphus) that you must answere to these Questions.

Eubulus.

By a Sonnet one may verie convenientlie giuegiveII. sentence of a Song: and Philadelpbus will but let you see, (Eriphilus) that wee are not so farre borne in despite of all the Muses, but that wee could render you as compact Verses, as anie your proper Ballad hath in it. Yet, let it bee as you desire: p. 21wee will leaue Sonnets a little, and come to Syllogismes. Philomathes, reade on.

Philomathes.

Gladlie. Thus then hee beginneth.

I pray thee, Protestant, beare with mee,

To aske thee Questions, two or three:

And if an answere thou canst make,

More of thy counsell I will take.

Manie and sundrie Sects appeare,

Now in the Worlde, farre and neare:

The Protestant, the Puritane,

The Calvinist, the Zvvingliane,

The Brovvnists, and the Fam'lie of LoueLove,

And manie moe, which I can prooue:

And the Romane Fayth, truelie,

Which you doe call Papistrie.

All these, in verie deede,

Rehearse all Articles in the Creede:

And ev'rie one of them sayth,

That their's is the Catholicke Fayth.

How should I, amongst all these,

Know the Trueth, from feigned Lies?

For ev'rie one confesse IESU;

Saying, that their Faith is true.

But this is it that I doe seeke,

To know the Church Catholicke;

The Communion, or the companie,

Of bolie Men, in vnitie.

Eubulus.

This hath beene the Question, which in allIII. times perverse and ignorant men, hauehave pretended for them, as is cleare by these wordes of Chrysostome, Homil. 33. in Act. Tom. 3. The Heathen man sayeth▪ I would bee a Christian, but I know not to whom I should cleane: Manie Debates are amongst you▪ I know not what Doctrine to choose; seeing on both sides they pretende p. 22Scripture. Answere him, This maketh much for vsus: For if wee did say, that our Fayth were grounded vponupon naturall reasons, thou hadst reason to bee troubled: but when wee betake vsus to the Scriptures, which are playne and true, thou mayest easilie discerne. If anie man agree with Them, hee is a Christian: and who so oppugneth Them, hee is farre from this Rule.

This same Chrysostome, in 2. ad Thessal. 2. All things are cleare and playne in divine Scriptures: what-so-ever thinges are necessarie, are manifest in them.

Agayne, the same Chrysostome, in Ioann. cap. 10. Homil. 58. The Scriptures leade vsus to GOD, and open to vsus the knowledge of Him: they both make, and keepe the Sheepe: neyther suffer they Wol…es to breake in: For, as a most strong Doore, they debarre Heretickes, and place the Godlie in suretie. Neyther (so beeing wee bee willing) shall they ever suffer vsus to fall away in Errour.

Now, al-be-it I well might, for all answere, oppose to your Poet, these Passages; yet, lest you complayne, (Philomathes) that I passe him too slenderlie, I take vp the summe of your Man his mayne Question, to bee this: Amongst so manie diverse Sects, all rehearsing the common Creed, and each acclayming the Title of the Church, hovve, and by what Marks, we may discerne the true Church of CHRIST, from such as falselie doe vsurpe that Title?

Philomathes.

You hauehave exceeding well taken vp the state of the Question. And, I pray you, is it not a necessarie Question, and worthie of a carefull consideration?

Eubulus.

Yea, verilie: but in proponing where-of, andIV. in answering there-to, your Questione… bewrayeth, either want of Care, or want of Skill, or (which is worse) want of Conscience. For, if hee could prooue moe Sectes than hee proponeth, (as both hee professeth, and I confesse hee might) why would hee not rather produce them, than, for malicious vp-making of a number, where no number is, make them diverse, who are but one? For everie difference of Opinion, maketh not a diverse Sect: much lesse doe diverse names of men, who disagree in no materiall point.

Philadelphus.

You miss-take the matter, (Eubulus) it is p. 23not maliciouslie done of him, but for Metres sake, to make vp his Verses, which, other-wayes, would not hauehave runne well.

Eubulus.

Well: this is his least, al-be-it even a lourd-Errour.V. But next, (Philomathes) for resolution of his Question, if hee had not willinglie set him-selfe to wander out of a right and plaine way, so to draw others after him, in the darke Mist of drumblie Disputations, hee might hauehave taken the onlie sure, and infallible Marke, from CHRIST His owne Mouth: Who, as hee is the onelie LORD of the House, great Shepheard of the Sheepe, and Bridegroome of the Bryde; so can Hee, best of anie, leade vsus to know them rightlie.

Philomathes.

That must bee of all other the most certaine Note: and I long to heare it.

Eubulus.

CHRIST giveth His Sheepe this Marke, That VI.they know the voyce of the great Shepheard, and follow it; and Iohn 1….John 1that they will not follow the voyce of a Stranger, for they know it not. Where-by that is vndoubtedlie the true Church, where the voyce of CHRIST, and His voyce onelie, is purelie preached, and religiouslie received. If anie man louelove Iohn 14. 2….John 14:2Mee, bee will keepe My Word; and My Father will louelove him; and Wee will come to him, and will dwell with him. Hee that loveth Mee not, keepeth not My Wordes, &c.

Philomathes.

This is most true: but the Question remaineth still, as doubtfull as before: for, what-so-ever Companie doeth acclaime to it selfe, the Title of the Church, they no lesse boldlie affirme, that they doe heare the voyce of CHRIST; so, as you hauehave, but cast vsus in a new dispute, what i… CHRIST His voyce, which his true Sheepe doe heare; and by hearing where-of, they may bee discerned to bee of His Sheepe-folde.

Eubulus.

Neyther CHRIST, nor His Apostles, nor theVII: succeeding Orthodox Fathers, hauehave left place, to make question heere-of, to anie, who wilfullie winketh not: for HeeIohn. 5. …9. & …7. ….John 5:9John 5:7 hath left vsus His holie Scriptures, and commandeth to search them, for a Witnesse of Him. Now, the way to know Him, p. 24and, to know His true Church, (which is his fulnesse) must of necessitie bee one. More-over, that which maketh the man of GOD wise, absolute, and perfect to everie good2. Tim. 3. 17.2 Tim 3:17 worke, must make him wise, to discerne the true Church also. But the Scriptures make the man of GOD wise, absolute, and perfect to everie good worke; therefore, they make him wise, to discerne the true Church also. So then, the Scriptures are CHRIST His voyce, and they onlie are now to bee helde for His voyce: for, In vaine doe men worship, (sayeth the LORD) teaching for Doctrines, the Traditions of men. Matth. 15. 9.Matt 15:9And, when-so-ever anie Church falleth to heare anie other Voyce, or follow anie other Speaker, then Shee looketh aside, Cant. 1. 6.Song 1:6to the Flockes of his Companions, and of a faithfull Citie, beginneth to become an Harlor. And, as Ierome pertinentlie speaketh, Egredietur è finibus suis; Shee transgresseth her owne Limits. In Mich.Your men, Philomathes, darken all disputation, by deceit of Aequivocations, and confounding of distinct Considerations, and Cases. It is a much different thing, to discerne the Church of CHRIST, in common, from Infidels & Forraigners. And, againe, in that communitie of the Church, to discerne betwixt the true worshippers, and the false; betwixt the true Church, and the Synagogue of Satan, calling themselues Iewes, and yet are not. And, who, for concluding of this, would bring the common notes of that, hee were a doting Divine, and a no lesse ridiculous Logician, than hee, who for discerning a man from a beast, would bring the common properties of a living creature: for, how-so-ever the common notes of Christians, good, or bad, of Orthodox, or Heretickes, of CHRIST, or Antichrist, will distinguish the common bodie (in which all these are) from Forraigners: yet, to discerne betwixt the true bodie, and the inherent evill; betwixt lawfull, and adulterous worship; betwixt the Bryde, and the pretending Whoore; (both of them in, though not both of the bodie) there is none other sure note, or marke of discretion, but the Scriptures onlie. When you shall see (sayeth Chrysostome) vngodlie Heresie, In Matth. H… mil. 49.which i… the Armie of Antichrist, standing in the holie places of p. 25the Church, then let them who are in Iudea, flee to the Mountainest that is, they who are of Christianitie, dresse them-selues to the Scriptures: because, from that Heresie hath once obtayned place in the Churches, there can bee no tryall of true Christianitie; neyther anie other refuge for Christians, willing to know the veritie of the Fayth, but the divine Scriptures. And in that same place: Before, manie wayes were shewed, which was the Church of CHRIST; but now, no manner of way, hut by the Scriptures. For, (sayeth the sameIn Matth. H… mil. …49. Chrysostome, or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect worke vponupon Matthew) if men looke to ought else, they shall stumble, and perish, not vnderstanding which is the true Church: and shall fall, there-by, in the abhomination of desolation, which standeth in the holie places of the Church. Wee thinke it not equitable, (saythEp. 80. ad E… sta. Medic. Basilius) that such custome of speach, as hath taken place with them, should bee helde for a Law, and Canon of right Doctrine: for, if custome were of force anough to prooue right Doctrine, wee might also imitate them heere-in. Let vsus stand, therefore, to the decision of Scripture, inspyred from GOD, and with whome are found heades of Doctrine, consonant to the divine Oracles; let Veritie bee al-to-gether adjudged vntounto them. Non oportet (sayeth Ireneus) quaerere apud Lib. 3. cap. 4.alios veritatem, cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis: that is, Wee must not seeke Trueth else-where, seeing the Apostles hauehave most plentifullie, as in a rich Store-house, put together all thinges that belong to Trueth. Non haec autilla. (sayeth Augustine) alteri parti suspecta objiciantur, Ad Maximin. lib. 3. cap. 13.sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae: that is, Let not such things bee objected, as are suspected of eyther partie; but let the common Armour, the Scriptures bee taken. I might bring manie moe such Testimonies of the Fathers, where-by your man his vnnecessarie nycenesse, (Philomathes) in making so great a Question, how Trueth, and the true Church, may bee discerned, from Lies, and hereticall companies, bewrayeth evidentlie, what vpright affection hee hath, eyther to fynde the true way him-selfe, or to leade others there-in.

Philomathes.

When all that you hauehave sayde is granted, (so as not onlie those be the true Sheepe, which heare CHRIST His voyce, but that His voyce also bee determined to bee the p. 26holie Scriptures) yet the Question remaineth vnsolved. For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church, and professe the hearing of CHRIST His voyce; so doe they all alleadge Scripture for them. And this was, not obscurelie, implyed in the Question, in that all rehearse the common Creede: so as nothing appeareth to bee yet brought of you, which will rid the Debate.

Eubulus.

To this I answere: First, al-be-it all pretendeVIII. Scripture, yet all pretende not Scripture onlie, (which, both by Scripture, and by cleare Testimonie of Orthodox Antiquitie, I hauehave prooved, in the Case heere questioned, to bee the onelie Rule:) for your Church of Rome joyneth, and equalleth with Scripture, her owne Canons, and Traditions; and there-by declareth evidentlie, all her worship to bee vaine. Hoc nimis doleo (sayeth Augustine) quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt, minus curantur & tam multis Ep. 119. ad lanuar.praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia, ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditiones negligit, quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit: that is, I much lament, for that manie thinges, which in the holie Scriptures are most healthsomlie written, are little regarded; and all things are so full of manifolde presumptions, as he is more grievouslie punished, who neglecteth those humane Traditions, than who hath buried his mynde in Drunkennesse. If that holie Father did finde such matter of lamentation, for those small beginnings, (in comparison) which the mysterie of your Antichristian Iniquitie, at that time not so farre as yet advanced, had come to; what had beene the measure of his griefe, if hee had seene it in the toppe of Presumptuous Impietie?

Eriphilus.

What, Eubulus, will you make vsus, therefore, to heare another voyce than CHRIST'S, because wee heare the voyce of the Church? Is not the voyce of the Church, CHRIST'S owne voyce? sayeth Hee not in Scripture. Hee who heareth you; heareth Mee; and bee who despyseth you, despyseth Mee?

Eubulus.

Too great heate (Eriphilus) maketh you to overreachIX. your selfe, and so to stumble, both in Logicke, and in Divinitie. Your Errour in Logicke, is, that you take that p. 27for an Argument, which is the verie Poynt in Question. All our Dispute, is, what Companie, of so manie Acclaimers, is the true Church of CHRIST. In this Question, proponed to vsus by your Poët, wee are come thus farre, That who heare CHRIST'S voyce, and His voyce onlie. Wee hauehave layde also this ground, That the Scriptures are onelie to bee helde for His voyce. VponUpon which ground, I challenged your Church, as adding to her owne. Now here for your defence, that your Decrees must bee counted CHRIST'S voyce; and that even by Scripture, you assume, that you are the Church; and, where the Sheepe are to bee tryed, by the voyce which they doe heare, you will, therefore, justifie the voyce, because you, forsooth, doe heare it. And by such Logicke as this, what may you not conclude? You might, with more credite, tell vsus in plaine Tearmes, That you will not hauehave it put in question, but that you are the Church: than appeare to put that poynt in tryall, and incontinent, to take it for a Principle, which is the verie Poynt controverted. Now, as this is your fault in Logicke, and that exceeding chyldish; so, in Divinitie, you misse, and more dangerouslie. Because the LORD affirmeth, That who heareth the Church, heareth Him; and who despyseth them, despyseth Him; if Pastours, vnderunder the pretext of this Power, should presume, absolutelie, to impose on Consciences, what they please; binding Christians, indifferentlie, without proving, to admit all; it were an impudent, yea, an impious vsurpation: For these speaches of CHRIST hauehave alwayes this implyed Condition, That Pastours speake nothing, but the wordes of the Great Shepheard: For, the words of the Wyse, Eccles. 12. 11.Eccl 12:11are lyke Goades, and lyke Nayles, &c. which are given by one Pastour. Were they not, I pray you, the ordinarie Churchmen, whom the LORD rebuked, for burdening Consciences, with Traditions, even of Fathers? And were not those Traditions, where-of Augustine so much lamented the imposition, the Traditions of the Church? Doeth not the same Father affirme, That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum, sicubi De Unitat. Eccl. cont. …il. Ep. 166. cap. ….falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant: that is, p. 28Wee ought not consent, no, not with Catholicke Bishops, if they holde a…e opinion contrarie to the canonicke Scriptures. For (as Cyprian Ad …, cont. Ep. ….sayth) Consuetudo sine veritate, vetustas est erroris: Custome without Trueth, is but Antiquitie of Errour. And the Saying of Ruffinus, on the Creed, is notable: Non dicimus, Credo in Ecclesiam, sed, Credo Ecclesiam: ne eadem vis & authoritas videatur Creatoris, & creaturae; Domini & Ministrorum▪ that is, Wee say not, I belieue in the Church, but, I belieue the Church: lest one and the same, might appeare to bee the power and auth…ritie of the Creator, and the creature, of the LORD, and of His Servantes. Augustine affirmeth,…ib. 2. d… Bapt. cont. Do…t cap. …. Licere quaslibet liter as Episcoporum, & ipsa consilia reprehendere, si qua in …e a veritate devient: That it is lawfull to repr…oue what-so-ever Letters of bishops, yea, and the Councels them-selues, if in anie thing they decly…e from the …rueth. Because hee who heareth the King his Ambassadour, or Herauld, heareth the King; and who despyseth them, despyseth the King; hauehave eyther Ambassadours or Heraulds an… libe…tle, heere-vponupon, to exceede the boundes of then Commissions and Warrandes? Or, hauehave not the parties, who other-wayes, are holdē to heare eyther of th…m; yet place le…t them (without anie diminution of the Soveraigne Majestie, and Royall Authoritie) both to aske for, and to examine their Warrandes? Wee hauehave but one LORD, and one Law-giver: and so only doeth the contempt of our voyce touch Him, if our voyce bee the Eccho of His voyce, and wee speake not out of our owne imaginations. Other-wayes, the manie sad, and serious Warninges, given vsus to trye spirits, were vayne.

Then, turning speach to Philomathes. Eriphilus heate for your Church, (Philomathes) hath al-most haled mee quyte from our Question. You objected, That all Sects pretende Scripture. I answered, That all pretended not Scripture onlie; for that your Church joyneth, and aequalleth with Scripture, her owne Devyses. Nowe, to divert heere farder to the Question of the Churches power in this poynt, and whether shee may erre, or not, it were to slyde away from our present poynt: and I hauehave disputed that matter at length, in my Defence of our Callinges. I giuegive the Case, then, p. 29that your Church, and all others, acclayming the Title, did pretende Scripture onelie: yet, it is one thing to pretende Scripture, and another to hauehave Scripture truelie for them: It is one thing to rehearse the common Creede, and another thing to holde the poyntes there-of: Yea, and one thing to holde them falselie, and but in show, and another to holde them truelie. One may in worde and profession, holde IESVS to hauehave come in the flesh; and yet, in effect, denye it, and so bee an Antichrist. None can call IESVS LORD, but1. Iohn, 4. 3. by the Spirit of GOD, (sayeth the Scripture:) and yet the1. Cor. 12. 3.1 Cor 12:3 same Scripture witnesseth, That not al who call Him LORD, Matth. 7. 21.Matt 7:21shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven. If Heretickes did not pretende Scripture, they could not greatlie deceiue; no more than the Philistims had declared Samsons Riddle, ifIudg. 14. 18.Judg 14:18 they had not plowed with his Heyfer. And this, indeede, were to yeelde Satan an easie victorie: if, because (for more effectuall deceit) hee maketh to cloathe him-selfe with our Weapons, wee should, therefore, fayntlie forsake them, and for-g…e that which by our LORD is left vsus, for our onelie Armour, Rule of our Wayes, and Sole Ground, and Pillar of our Fayth, (as sayeth Ireneus) so to wander, and perish,Lib. 31 cap. 3. in the Wildernesse of Mens Inventions.

Philadelphus.

Verilie, (Philomathes) it is exceeding strange, that your Teachers hauehave so farre perswaded their Disciples; that reading of Scripture, to Laike persons, (as they call them) is not onelie vnprofitable for resolution, but also dangerous for breeding Errours: Thus verifying of themselues, that saying of Ireneus, speaking of Heretickes, Cum Lib. 3. cap. 2.ex Scripturis arguuntur, in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum: that is, When they are argued by Scriptures, they turne then to the accusation of the Scriptures them-selues: Al-be-it, wee see the Bereans are highlie praysed, for searching Scripture,Acts, 17. 11. and examining there-by, what was offered vntounto them; and their example is registrated by the holie Ghost, for a permanent instruction, in such case, to all succeeding Ages. And it is even monstrous to consider, how farre your guydes hauehave brought their followers, not onlie to neglect, but even p. 30to contemne; yea, and condemne, in Laike men, the reading of holie Scripture. So, as I can not tell, whether with greater horrour, I hauehave often heard their disdainful speaches, against Scripture: or, with dolour, and compassion, I hauehave perceived, how some of them, presuming much of Knowledge; and, other-wayes, prowdlie, peart to prattle, in Controversies of Religion, and to talke at Tables, of some cunned, and dismembred Testimonies of the Fathers; yet, in the Sacred BIBLE, were as great strangers, as in the Alcoran.

Philomathes.

If anie man, eyther speake vnreverentlie of Scripture, or condemne the reading there-of, by Laike persons, I am not to make good for that; for my selfe, I both reverence them, and esteeme the reading of them, in Sobernesse, and Humilitie, to all sorts of men, not onlie lawfull, but also profitable, and necessarie. Neyther did that, which I objected to Eubulus, tende to draw men al-to-gether from Scripture: but, seeing that not onlie all Heretickes pretende Scripture, each drawing out there-of, a Sense, for corroboration of their owne Opinions: but that there is also a manifolde, and great diversitie of interpretation amongst all men, (where-through it is cleare, howe doubtfull and obscure the meaning of Scripture is.) It would appeare, that al-be-it wee hauehave not to forsake, or despyse Scripture; yet, for Resolution, which is the true Sense, that wee must seeke some other Rule. And what can that bee else, but that, leaving all other Interpretations, wee holde that which the Catholicke Church avoucheth.

Eubulus.

Doe you not perceiue, (Philomathes) howe,X. agaynst all Logicke Lawes, you reduce our Disputation, to a Circle: and, so, not onelie you take that for a graunted ground, which is the verie poynt in question; but also fall, sensiblie, in that same imputation, which you would appeare so much to shunne. Wee are disputing, Which is the true Church: and hauehave evinced, That the onelie sure way to know Her, is by Scripture. So as of necessitie, first Scripture must leade vsus to know (amongst common Acclaymers) p. 31which is Shee, before wee can resolue to follow Her interpretation. I heartilie yeelde, that Her interpretation be taken: but, in such Dispute, Who Shee is, wee must first bee assured, that it is the Bryde which speaketh, and not a masked Harlot, vnderunder that name. As for your Objection, of Scriptures obscuritie, where-vponupon, by accusing Scripture, you would build an excuse, of seeking some other Rule, it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD, and is also, in it selfe, sophisticall. It is clearlie contumelious agaynst GOD, in that CHRIST, commanding to search Scripture, for a cleareIohn, 5. …9. 2. Pet. 1. 19.2 Pet 1:19 witnessing of Him; the holie Ghost affirming by Peter, that the word of Scripture, is a sure and shyning word; by Paul, 2. Tim. 3. 16.2 Tim 3:16that it is able to make the man of GOD wyse, to everie good worke; and exhorting all men, & praysing in all men, the diligent reading, and meditation there-of, there-by to discerne spirites, and to prooue what is propounded vntounto them: that David, al-most all-where, speaking so divineliePsal. 119. ….Ps 119 of the playnnesse, and power there-of, as where-by even a Chylde may learne to addresse his wayes: Yet some of your men (Philomathes) are not ashamed, disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule, and a Nose of Waxe: as if the Almightie, and only wyse GOD, had not eyther wysely anough, or lovinglie, provyded for the direction of His House: and that men, forsooth, will, or can, finde out a more cleare and certayne way. But, what-so-ever obscuritie had appeared to bee in Scripture; or, howe vncertayne so-ever the vayne and running Humours of men, might appeare to make it, by their diversitie of Interpretations; yet this should ever hauehave religiouslietyed vsus there-to, that our LORD hath left it vsus, for a Lanterne to our Feete, and sole and perpetuall Ground of our Fayth: studying, therefore, with all humilitie, cleannesse of heart, and earnest prayer, to attayne the knowledge there-of: and not proudlie, and rebelliouslie, to take such counsell, as did Israell in the Wildernesse: Wee know not what Exod. 32. ….Exod 32is become of this Moses; make vsus, therefore, gods to goe before vsus. The advyse of Augustine, is much more both sound and sober,De Doctrin. Christian. Lib. 1. Cap. 37. than is that of your Church-men: That in reading of p. 32Scripture, if wee can not take vp the verie genuine sense, and meaning of the place, at least, let vsus not expound that place of Scripture, in a sense repugning to the Analogie of Fayth: So shall wee bee lyke to a man, who how-so-ever hee hath aberred from the direct way, yet hee wandreth in the Fields, leading to the Towne where-at hee would bee. I affirmed, (Philomathes) that your Objection, of Scriptures obscuritie, was also Sophisticall; and thus I cleare it: All reason of obscuritie, must bee eyther in the matter it selfe, or in the manner of delyverie, or in the weaknesse of their perception, to whome it is delyvered. Of divine thinges, wee acknowledge, that, how-so-ever, for most reall and constant existence, they bee, of all thinges, the most certayne: yet, that, for their retyred eminencie, to all creatures, of all thinges, the most obscure. But, for the manner of deliverie, as GOD, in holie Scripture, hath revealed them, we affirme, that all the wisdome, and eloquence of all creatures, (even in a conceived matter) could never hauehave found out so playne a manner; or, so farre, and lovinglie, hauehave attempered it, to the capacitie of man, (as in so high mysteries, and a constant remayning Rule of Fayth, was possible.) And yet, howso-ever they bee thus delivered, wee acknowledge, that no naturall man, (and naturall onlie) is capable of them: For they are spirituallie discerned: But the spirituall man, by the1. Cor. 2. 14.1 Cor 2:14 Spirit of GOD in him, will discerne the things of GOD.

To reason, then, from the naturall obscuritie, or retyred eminencie of the matter, to the manner of deliverie: or, from the weaknesse of man's perception, to conclude of the manner of deliverie: or, from the perception of the naturall man, to conclude of the perception of the spirituall man, it were al-wayes absurd Sophistication. We are bolde to say, with the holie Ghost, That how-so-ever to most partMatth. 13. 11.Matt 13:11 of men, the Mysteries of the Kingdome bee spoken in parables; that hearing, they may heare, and not vnderstand; and seeing, they may see, and not perceiue: Yet, That Whoso-ever Iohn, …. 17.doeth the will of the FATHER, they will knowe the Doctrine, whether it bee of GOD, or whether men speake of p. 33them-selues: That CHRIST HIS true Sheepe, knowe Iohn, 10.His Voyce, and knowe the voyce of a Stranger: Wee avouch, That the wordes of Wisdome, are all playne to him that will vnderstand▪ Proverb. …. ….and straight, to him that will finde Knowledge: That Scorner, seeketh Wisdome, and findeth it not; but Knowledge is easie Prov. 13. 6.Prov 13:6to him, that will vnderstand. So, as if the Trueth bee hid, it is2. Cor. 4. 4.2 Cor 4:4 hid to them, whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out: and whom GOD, justlie, eyther for misregard, or pryde of mynde, hath given over to the efficacie of Errour, to groape even at noone day. Neyther maketh your Sophisticall Objection, of diversitie of Interpretation, against this: for, how-so-ever, manie particular places in Scripture, appeare still difficill, and doubtfull to vsus, which but know in part, and prophesie in part: yet wee affirme, (with Augustine)De doct. Chr… lib. 2. cap. 6. & …. That even in those things which are playnlie set downe in Scripture, are all things to bee found, which contayne Fayth, and Rules of living; and that nothing, almost, is ripped out of the most obscure parts, which will not bee found in some other place most playnlie spoken.

Philomathes.

To grant you even all that you hauehave sayde, either of the plainnesse, or plentiful…esse of holie Scripture; yet what shall you gaine there-by, against our Questioner? or, how shall you justifie the imputations, of want of Care. Skill, or Conscience, layde on him by you? seeing both our Church confesseth, that the Scripture showeth which bee the true Markes of the Church; and such Notes as are heere brought by our man, hee prooveth them all from Scripture.

Eubulus.

How eyther proper, or pertinent, your Poet'sXI. Markes are, which hee bringeth, and how well hee prooveth them from Scripture, or other-wayes, wee shall see, GOD willing, in the particular examination of each; where-by all his Corne shall bee found but Chaffe; and that carelessie, skillessie, or fraudfullie, hee hath fled the onelie demonstratiue Marke, to seduce the simple, with Topicall showes. You say, your Church acknowledgeth, that by Scripture, the true Marks of the Church are knowne. But (Philomathes) they fall never to say so, but when they are reduced to such straits, as eyther they must say it, or bee snared, For their common p. 34Doctrine is well anough knowne, which can so little consist with this, which you hauehave now granted, as the one, evidentlie, over-throweth the other. For, doe not your men make all the authoritie of Scripture to depende so farre on the Church her suffrage, as that therefore onlie you are sure, such & such to be canonicke Scriptures, because the Church hath so determined? Thus, monstrouslie, you make one, and the same, to bee both the Mother and the Daughter, and of one.

Philomathes.

But, thus, you taxe Augustine no lesse than vsus,Cont. Epist. Fundam…. who affirmeth, that hee would not belieue Scripture, if the authoritie of the Churh did not mooue him.

Eubulus.

You deceiue, (Philomathes) by concluding Theticallie,XII. and absolutelie, vponupon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth: and, so, you, vnskilfullie, confound diverse Cases. For, first, inducing of an Infidell, to belieue Scripture, the Authoritie of the Church, is a great Motiue; or rather, (as Augustine calleth it) a Commotiue, and Opportanum inquirendi exordium: that is, A commodious entrie, toLib. de vtilit…. inquire by. Now, from this speciall Case, and qualitie of Case, to inferre, That the man by this Commotiue, first induced, had still there-after no other, or greater Warrand, for his Beliefe of Scripture, but the Authoritie of the Church, which first induced him: it were no better Logicke, than to conclude of the Samaritanes, That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth, than the Report of their Woman from the Well.

The Authoritie of the Church, may, and will often, induce an Infidell, to reverence, and belieue Scripture: but so, as having come thus farte, then, in the communitie of that Church, to discerne lawfull, from vnlawfull worship; and, orthodox, from hereticall professours, the Scriptures onlie must hauehave place: as in a case, where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie, were extreamlie ridiculous, it beeing the verie point in question, what companie is the Church. And I shewed you before, how your men are alwayes deceived, or at least, labour to deceiue others, by confounding p. 35the case of the Church considered, absolutelie, and in relation to Forraigners, and Infidels, and reasoning from it, (so considered) to the decyding of debate, … … in the Church. In the first, the common notes are discretiue, and the common authoritie, a commotiue to induce; but in the other, there is no manner of way, but the Scriptures, as out of the Fathers I hauehave cleared. And, now, ( … lomathes) to returne to our poyn… whence this your …hreedbare Objection, from Augustine, hath driven …ee. I pray you, if your men are forced to confesse, That the Markes of the Church, are knowne by Scripture; why flee they from having all, both their Doctrine and Dealing, examined by that same Rule? What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this, to … ject Scripture, in the particular tryall of everie: Article of Fayth; and yet, for a few wrested, and perv…ed Sentences, where-by to proue some bastard▪ and beg…yling Notes, therefore, impudentlie, to all eadge, That they, for sooth, doe cleare their Church, by Scripture? As if in all Scripture, the holie Ghost had but given some Notes, of a Companie, where to seeke our Fayth; and no… clearlie set downe the Fayth, which wee hauehave to holde, and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee hauehave to cleaue vntounto.

Your Cardinall Bellarmine, in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers, nearlie pintching him, (namelie, of Augustine) is forced to flee to this, which you, also, … takenDe … …el. cap. 1. for your last Refuge: That the Scripture, indeede, teacheth what are the Notes of the Church. And I hauehave, verilie, reason, to thanke both you, and him for it: If (as I presume of you) so hee, also, had eyther willinglie, or ingenuouslie yeelded it. And, though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour, yet I was presentlie to hauehave put you in mynde there-of; for the cleare advantage I hauehave in it, to conclude, aga…nst your … all this poynt of our Dispueation. I am sure, that … …o is so … … … Scho… Man, will not (agaynst Na…re, …nd all Schooles) affirme of GOD, the most perfect Doctour▪ Th… Hee …, (Obseuru… p…r obscurius) that which is obscure, by anie thing p. 36which is more obscure. For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus: that is, of thinges which are, by nature, more notore▪ than are those things, which they are brought to notifie. Thus, then, I conclude, vponupon your owne Position: That which cleareth anie thing, must it selfe be more cleare▪ But the Scripture cleareth, which are the Notes of the Church. There-fore, as the Notes, where-by the Church is knowne, must bee more cleare, than the Church, which is knowne by them: So, the Scripture, which teacheth those Notes, must bee more cleare than both. The Scripture, which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House, and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe, truelie taught, and reverentlie received, is the onlie, sure, and evident Ensigne of the House, and Flocke. And, who is it that knoweth not this▪ That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours, and not the Colours by the Companie? Now, consider, (Philomathes) whether your mens Objections, Of Scriptures obscuritie, doe fall, and in what vprightnesse they are propounded: And, whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set, to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for: or, rather, fraudfullie, to divert the Simple, from the onelie Light, which leadeth to it?

And, some of your owne Wryters, convinced by cleare Trueth, are forced to confesse, what the more impudent sort so much oppugne.

Andreas Fricius, thus speaketh:

DEVS Author est Verbi Sui, quod tanti facit, ut Coelum & Terra facilius transitura sint, quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura. Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum, qui authoritatem tribuit, qui illud in dignitatem vindicat: qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum. Testimonium quidem Ecclesia, Spiritu DEI aff…ata dare potest Verbo & Doctrinae: hanc scilicet quam …am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus ac…pisset, & non ali…m esse à DEO prolitam: Authoritatem ver… Illi …ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum, qui est Author illius, Illustrator, Defensor, Propug…ator.

p. 37Agayne, the same Author,

Lib. 4. de Ecclesia, Cap. 7.

Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam; Verbum Fundamentum est, Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum.

Gabriel Biel, Lib. 3. Sentent. Distinct. 26.

Scripturae canonicae, absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae, ex natura …ei sunt immutabiles, & immutabiliter verae.

Hosius, in Confess. Cap. 16.

Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio, nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis, et nos docentis.

So as (Philomathes) if you will not belieue vsus, yet your owne men may tell you, Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe, and would draw others, with him, in Darknesse.

Philadelphus.

Hee will hauehave vsus, to seeke after the Church, as Children, at Chacke-blynd-man, groape after their Fellowes. For, first, hee would picke out our Eyes, or syle vsus from seeing: and, then, forsooth, set vsus a-searching. But they who doe evill, hate the Light: and the Church of Rome, had rather choose, That this Debate were never decided, than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought, where-by they might bee found out, who they are.

Through open Streete, with lighted Lampe in hand,

A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone:

Where-of, when one the Motiue did demand,

His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone:

'Mongst Men, more mad than Mamacks, by the Moone,

I search (sayde hee) if I can finde one wyse.

Asse (th'other sayde) thyne Head is out of tune:

Canst thou discerne one, though thou sawst him thryse?

But (more) your man is jumpe set in his matter,

As hee who sought his drown'd Wyfe vp the Water.

p. 38Eriphilus.

Your Sonnets (Philadelphus) are verie sarcasticke: but where-by (if our man's Questions bee not better answered, than by such cutting Checks) the Scorne, in ende, will turne to bee your owne.

Eubulus.

Doe you well (Eriphilus) to bee angrie? is onlieXIII. your man priviledged to bee a Poët? and is hee so (haeres ex asse) vniversall Heyre to all the Muses, as that wee hauehave no part, nor portion, in them? Et nos quoque la…rum momordimus. But, let vsus see which of vsus shall fall to packe vp the Scorne: and having alreadie cleared, what is the onelie sure Note of the Church, let vsus now more nearlie treade your man's traces, in these his metricke Marks, and try what weight they carrie. First, (Philomathes) reade the Inscriptions of his Sections, for vp-taking his whole Drift. Then will wee (God willing) examine each of them severallie, and shortlie.

Philomathes.

These are the capitall wordes of all his Sections, 1. Catholicke, 2. Continuance, 3. Visible, 4. Vnitie, 5. Holie, 6. Heretickes.

Eubulus.

His whole Ryme (as I remember) …unneth onXIV. two maine poynts: the one, to prooue, that the Church of Rome, is the true Church of CHRIST: the other, to shew, that our Churches are hereticall. The first, hee would conclude thus:

To what-so-ever companie, the notes of Catholicke, (or Vniversalitie) Continuance, Visibilitie, Vnitie, and Holinesse, doe properlie conveane, that is the onelie true Church of CHRIST.

But, to the Church of Rome, all these doe properlie conveane. Therefore, the Church of Rome, is the onlie true Church of CHRIST.

Eriphilus.

If you can clearlie loose mee that K…ot, (Eubulus) you may, perhaps, induce mee▪ to take more of your counsell. But, I suspect, you are once snared: for, of the proposition, none can make question: the assumption will beare out it selfe; and so, I hope, the Conclusion shall stand stedfast.

p. 39Eubulus.

And, if I shall cleare the proposition, to bee soXV. vayne, and Sophisticall, as, though the propounder were heere present, to pleade for it, yet I would, GOD willing, breed him such Businesse, to mayntayn it, as should run him quyte out of all his ryming humour. And, if I show his Assumption also to be evidentlie false, what wil you make (Eriphilus) of your man's miserable Conclusion? The vanitie, & sophisticall deceit of his Proposition, I will best discover, as I shall answere to each of these his Markes severallie; according as hee bringeth them in order, so by an Induction, to strengthen his false Assumption. And yet, even thus I feare, (Eriphilus) that you shall recall your liberall Offer, and be never a whit the more subject to my counsell. But Wisedome will bee justified of her owne Children. Philomathes, reade on.

Philomathes.

Then hearken what hee sayeth of the first Marke, Catholicke.