Dialogue Wherein a Romish Rhyme is Confuted, Chapter 5
CHAPTER V.
VISIBLE.
THis is another Marke most cleare,Neque … … res…e … non potest … Christian…: … … … v…ra, si … … … p… times, & … tati… ab … bus s…pscrit. … ill… … … …. Arn…ius, 3. adversus …tes. …reger. Na…n. orat. 21. d… …d. Ath…nasii. …ee who pro…eth one, and … same Do…ne of Fayth, … fellow-part…er of the same …ayre: but who maintaineth a …trarie …eth, is to bee …ounted an …versarie, al…it even sitting the Chayre. …d this, in…de, hath the …ne, but that …er hath the …e matter, and …eth of Succes…n.
The Church of God must still appeare,
As a Citie vponupon an Hill,
Shyne, and continue still,
As a light, on a Candle-sticke,
Such is the Church Catholicke.
Our Saviour sayeth, If one offend,
And will not bee ruled by his Friend,
Tell the Church, without delay.
And if hee will not then obey,
Doe thou esteeme such a man,
An Heathen, or a Publicane.
Is not this the Church, where-in wee see,
Two hundreth Bishops, thirtie three,
To hauehave succeeded each other,
Since the tyme of Saynct Peter?
Shew mee this Marke in you,
And I will say, your Fayth is true.
If it bee not the Church of Rome,
Then will I bee converted soone.
Eubulus.
This is your Man's third Marke, and which you hauehave brought, to beare vp your decaying CONTINVANCE. I.But, I say, (Philomathes) that no more can VISIBILITIE bee a proper Marke of the Church, than could CONTINVANCE; for, it is a common accident, of all visible creatures: So as, al-be-it I should yeelde as much of Visibilitie, as I confessed of Continuance, yet would it but serue for a Negatiue Conclusion, agaynst others; but for no Affirmatiue Demonstration of your owne Church: And, thus, still, thorow all, your Man's mayne Proposition prooveth vayne.
Philomathes.
I must confesse, that Visibilitie, no more than Continuance, is a proper Note of the Church: For you hauehave clearlie evinced it. Yet, as, out of our Man, I framed an Argument, before, vponupon Continuance; so, nowe, I will, from Visibilitie, (even a common Accident, as you call it) conclude, not onlie negatiuelie, agaynst your Church; but; affirmatiuelie, of the Church of Rome. And, I reason thus:
The Church of CHRIST is al-wayes visible. But, for manie Ages, no Church was visible, but the Church of Rome. There-fore, the Church of Rome, is the onlie Church of CHRIST.
Eubulus.
Such an affirmatiue Conclusion, jumpe, as wasII. your former, vponupon CONTINVANCE; by a deceiving consequence, vponupon the presumed Defectes of others. Which, as it beguiled you, in your CONTINVANCE, so will it fayle you here also, for it is the verie same. And, as I so over-threw your Argument, from CONTINVANCE, that you were fayne to flee to Visibilitie, for succour: so will I make, now, the weaknesse of this your Reason, from Visibilitie, not only visible, but even palpable also. Where-in, yet, I will not waste tyme, to show, how ridiculouslie, vainlie, and impertinentlie, hee laboureth, to prooue the Proposition, of this his Syllogisme. That hath beene oftener showed, than hee hath syllables in his Proper Ballad: neyther will I insist, to expose his follie, in bringing bare personall Succession, (and not that which all orthodox Fathers call the principall, and proper succession) and but of one particular Church, (as if it had fayled in all other Churches) for stablishing of his Assumption. What is true Succession, and who are true Successours, and how vnjustlie eyther are appropriated, or attributed to Rome, I hauehave cleared else-where. I come to the point itDefe…e of Sect. 4. Defence of Sect. …3. & selfe: whereof, al-be-it I hauehave alreadie written at such length, as I might bee well excused, to referre you whollie there-to, (my Bookes passing so commonlie in the Countrey) yet, because in this Marke, as in the toppe of your strength, you glorie most, I will, GOD willing, in few words, vnfolde your Errour. This then, (Philomathes) is the Major, or Proposition of your Argument: The Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible.
Philomathes.
And you hauehave, al-readie, as I thinke, granted it: neyther see I, (though you would recall your word) what, goodly, you can say against it.
Eubulus.
I am to recall nothing of that I hauehave sayde: butIII. yet I must cleare, in what sense this your Position is to bee admitted, for pulling your men from their ordinarie Starting-Hole of Aequivocation. For, how-so-ever, I will still grant, that, in some respects, the Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible: yet, I will denye your Proposition, if, from a restrict Case, you draw it to an absolute Assertion, because, in some consideration, the Church is invisible. And, to cleare this: In respect of the matter of the Church, (which is Men) and, in respect of the common outward forme, (in the publicke & common Ensigne of Profession, & worship) we confesse, the Church to bee, and, al-wayes to hauehave beene, visible. But, in respect of her inward forme, & the purpose of Grace, (where-on chiefelie the Trueth of the Church hangeth) she is invisible. And, the LORD knoweth, who are His. Schooles doe call the one, Rationē Signi; &, the other, Rationē Beneplaciti. And, seeing it is an Article of our Faith, to belieue the Church; and, that Fayth, is of things, which are not seene; it followeth, of necessitie, that in some (and that a most principall) respect, the Church is invisible. For, to be believed, & to be seene, can not consist. Yea, this is so evident a trueth, as Bellarmine is forced to confesse it: these are his words, Melius dico in Ecclesia aliquid videri, Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 15.& aliquid credi; videmus enim eum coetum qui est Ecclesia; sed quod ille coetus sit ipsa vera CHRISTI Ecclesia non videmus, sed credimus: that is, I say, better that in the Church some thing is seene, and some thing is believed; for wee see that Companie which is the Church; but, that that Companie is the selfe true Church of CHRIST, we see not, but belieue it. The one cōsideration, discerneth Christians, true or false, from open Idolaters, and Heathen men: the other, distinguisheth true Christians, from outward professours onlie, & commō worshippers. Now, as these distinct Cōsiderations should be sophisticallie confounded; so you see, (Philomathes) that your Propositiō, taken absolutelie, were deceitfullie false.
Philomathes.
Even so much as you grant, will serue me for concluding of mine Argument; so, as I neede not impugne your Distinction, or disadvow ought that Bellarmine sayeth▪ I pleade, but that the Church is ever visible, Ratione Signi, (as you speake) that is, that the true, & Orthodox externall worship, and worshippers, hauehave beene al-wayes visible. For, it must bee some externall Signe, falling vnderunder Sense, and outward perception, which must bee a Marke of the Church, as you hauehave evinced agaynst vsus, eve… by our Bellarmine's suffrage: and, there-vponupon, did bereaue vsus of our first Marke of CATHOLICKE, or VNIVERSALITIE.
Eubulus.
As you even modifie your Proposition, (Philomathes)IV. yet it implyeth a deceit, which you bewray, by your owne Glosse: That is, (say you) that the true, and Orthodox Worship, and Worshippers, hauehave al-wayes beene visible. Which, if you doe meane in this Sense, that, al-wayes, by the common Ensigne of publicke Profession, (Ratione Signi) it might ever hauehave bene discerned, where the true Worship, and true Worshippers were, and might hauehave beene seene; I will heartilie yeelde you it. But, if he…e-by, (as your Men pleade) you would signifie, that, all-wayes, and in common, lawfull, and true Worship, and, lawfull, and true Worshippers, hauehave so farre obtayned, & borne swey, as whatso-ever, in common, helde place in the Church, that was to bee esteemed Trueth: then, I still deny, even your modified Proposition. And, it is still one, and the same Fallacie, wherein, before, in the Mark of Continuance, you did fall; and which, at length, I elided there. In my Distinction, Signi, & Beneplaciti, I tolde you, even now, That by the visible Ensigne, Christians, in common, good, or bad; or Orthodox, or otherwayes, were discerned from Forraigners, and Heathen men. Now, heere-vponupon, to inferre, That, by the common, visible Ensigne, (in the cōmunitie of Christians) true, & Orthodox Worshippers; or, true, & Orthodox Worship, are discerned, from false, and adulterous, both vnderunder the same common Ensigne; you may see, how chyldish Sophistrie it were. If Satan had but one way, of assayling the Church, namelie, by open, and avowed Hostilitie: and, if none, but lawfull, and Orthodox Worshippers, were vnderunder it; then, had you reason, to make the cōmon Ensigne, of Visible Profession, a sure Marke, not onlie of Christians, in common, but even of true Christians al-so; at least, of lawfull outward worship. But, seeing, that, both, by Scripture, and many folde Experience, we know, that, by no meane, he hath, so effectually prevayled, as, by transforming him-selfe, in an Angel of Light; &, vnderunder pretence of the common Ensigne, to adulterate all lawfull vvorship; of necessitie, for discerning the true Church, or approoved lawfull Worship, from the Abhomination of Desolation, (both of them (in sanctis Ecclesiae locis) vnderunder one, and the same Ensigne, of Christian Profession) wee must advert,…l. 13. 11. not onlie whose Hornes are pretended; but also, whose Mouth speaketh. So as, still, you may see, that even Visibilitie must bee reduced vntounto, and examined, by our onelie demonstratiue Marke, which, in the beginning of our Disputation, I layde downe.
Philomathes.
I louelove so greatlie to bee resolved, especiallie in this so mayne, and maynlie controverted a Poynt, as I will come farder with you, than, I know, our Church will allow mee: and, giuegive you this, That even Errour, might possiblie hauehave taken place, in the whole Church, in common: (which Case I did, not obscurelie, put, at the beginning of our Conference, about this Marke) yet, seeing wee accord in this, That CHRIST hath ever had a true Church: and, seeing that you yeelde mee this, al-so, That the same is al-wayes visible, in respect of the matter there-of, [MEN] and externall forme of Profession: (which is, of necessitie, a certayne trueth; in so farre, as not onlie with the Heart wee belieue to Righteousnesse, but also, with the Mouth, wee confesse vntounto Salvation.) How-so-ever, it eyther hath, or might hauehave fallen, that most part were misscarried, and that Adulterous worship, and Worshippers, hauehave had chiefe Rowme, and beene most conspicuous, and visible: Yet, how can you denye, but some number, at least, behooved to be, al-wayes, of lawfull Worshippers, and holding the Orthodox Fayth: vvho, both in their persons, and in their Worship, were visible, even in tyme of greatest Corruption?
Eubulus.
Your vpright Dealing, and desire of Resolution,V. (Philomathes) maketh mee to let that freelie with you, which, with others, I would, perhaps, hauehave longer stucke vntounto. For bringing you, then, to your Wishes, I graunt your Proposition, in your last declared Sense, to be true. But then, I say, of your Assumption, (No Church hath remayned visible, but the Church of Rome) that it hath the same fallacie in it, which I opened, and refelled at length, in the same Assumption of Continuance. For, if by the Church of Rome, you meane the cōmon bodie, of the whole visible Church, albeit even affected, with the over-going Evill; & on which, for more effectual deceit, tyrannicallie the name of the beast sitting there-in, was by him imposed: then is your Assumption sophisticallie deceitfull, in reasoning, A dici, (from, So called) ad esse, (to, So is) and, concluding, from the Bodie absolutelie, to the Gangrene, or Sore in it, or, contrary-wayes, from the Evill in the Bodie, to the Bodie affected there-with, in common, but not vniversallie; as before I showed. And, vponupon your Assumption, thus vnderstood, your Conclusion will not follow. But, if by the Church of Rome, your Assumption meaneth the Evill, and Sore, agaynst which onlie it is that wee pleade, and not agaynst the common Bodie, where-of wee are; then, is it manifestlie false: and, so, your Conclusion fayleth.
Philomathes.
But, except you cleare to mee, how, in that Bodie, besides that which you doe call the over-going Sore, there were some visible partes, brooking Health, and that visiblie; I must still thinke, that your subtill Distinction, of the Bodie, from the Sore, is but vayne. For, I pray you, for manie Ages, who were seene, or knowne, to hauehave anie differing Profession? or, to hauehave resisted, and condemned, the Church of Rome?
Eubulus.
Now, consider, (Philomathes) how aequitablieVI. you requyre that of mee. For, first, How-so-ever it may be easilie seene, and showne, in a Bodie, but contracting a Disease, whyle, as yet, all Members are not much infected, or affected there-with: or, agayne, in a Bodie, convalescing, whyle eyther all the Bodie is al-most freed from the Sicknesse, or, at least, the strongest, and noblest partes, hauehave expelled the Disease; al-be-it, perhaps, the D…egges there-of rest, a space, in the extremities of Handes, or Feete, and keepe them swollen. Yet, (Philomathes) it shall bee hardlie showne in a Bodie, in the prevayling height, and mayne Fit of the Sicknesse, when it hath so farre obtayned, as all parts of that Bodie, in common, are, eyther infected, or, at least, heavilie affected, yea, and even much afflicted there-by; so, as no part can bee separablie showne, brooking, a-part, perfect health, without eyther Infection, or Affection. And, yet, even in such a Case, a Skilfull man, beholding, and considering, will perceiue, evidentlie, that it is a living, al-be-it a sick Bodie: yea, that such Strength, of naturall Vigour, yet remayneth there-in, al-be-it no-where vnaffected, which, both, resisteth the wasting Disease, even in the verie Paroxisme, and, in ende, by prevailing vitall power, & helpe of right Medicine, expelleth it. For, as in such a Bodie, if no remnant were of vitall Vigour, all Sense, and Motion, should be quyte extinguished: So, in a Bodie, totallie affected, & afflicted, al-be-it not vniversallie infected, it were a monstrous, & vnnatural thing, in such a Case, to see anie part of the Bodie, a-part, no-thing affected; al-be-it there will, even in that Bodie, be parts, not infected: where-in, as in a citadle lyfe, & health residing, they frō thence, both fight against the over-going Evill, &, at last, become victorious over it. Of the Church of Sardis, it it said,…vel. 3. 1. That, having a name, that she lived, yet she was dead; &, notwith-standing, is exhorted, to strengthen the parts which remayned, and were readie to die. And, even in this miserable Case, the LORD witnesseth, That even there, Hee had a few names, which had not defiled their garments: &, these yet stil lived, in the cōmuniō of that same Church, & were not known by any visible separation, frō the rest of that Bodie. For, separation is neither requisite, nor lawfull, till all hope of Cure be past. And, thus, neither were the faithfull ones vnderunder Antichristian tyrannie, till, after long tolleration, & much heavinesse, for the waxing Evill, at last, labouring to hauehave cured it, they were cruelly murdered, &, lay, barbarously, vnburied, &, insolentlie mocked, in the streetes of Babell, which neither would, nor could be cured. And, then, leaving her, as a burnt Mountayne, being, by divine warrand, commanded, to Come vp hither, they did separate themselues, not frō the Church, but frō the Contagions, and incurable Evill, in the Church, but not of it. For, wee would faine hauehave cured Babell, but shee would not. Next, (Philomathes) how-so-ever lightened men, each in their owne times, even in most desperate state, & condition, both might, and did see, some pure remnant, which were well knowne to the godly, then; yet, how absurdlie is anie account of them required of succeeding Ages, to whose knowledge (through repressing and suppressing tyrannie, of such as disposed of all Records at their pleasure) nothing did come, but what obtained commonlie in that tyme? In despite of all which, notwith-standing, so much testimonie hath remained, as may satisfie, and certifie, anie vpright mynde, That still Trueth was in the Church, & in all Ages had its owne Assertours; al-be-it not all, in a lyke degree of contestation, even in most corrupt tymes; as the Gatalogues of them, drawne vp by our Men, for meeting this your Objection, make manifest, if you please with an vnpartiall Heart to reade them.
More-over, heere, agayne, (Philomathes) you stumble, at a double Deceit, in the word VISIBLE: in that, not onlie, you conclude, That, what-so-ever is visible, is, al-so, seene: but, there-with, al-so, vponupon no open resisting, you inferre no being, most absurdlie. All men know, that from Tolleration, to Approbation, you can never stablish a Conclusion. Manie will, and, for manie Respects, tollerate that, which they are so farre from approoving, as they will vtterlie abhorre it. And, (to keepe our former similitude) how manie hauehave you seene, subject to great, and dangerous Diseases, and having their Bodies repleat with vicious Humours; who, yet, whyle they could retayne anie reasonable condition of Health, would not adventure, to mooue the Bodie; by expelling, with perilous Medicaments, the nociue Humours? The Church of Pergamus, tollerated what shee neyther approoved,Reve… … nor communicated there-with: but lurked, even where Satan's Throne was; keeping the Name of GOD, who knew her Dwelling, and Case. Physicians come not to Burning, and Cutting, till the Evill bee, not onelie desperate, but, al-so, that the Lyfe of the Bodie is in danger there-by. Your Romish Evill, (Philomathes) did growe on slowlie, and by Degrees; and came not to the toppe of Impietie at once: so, as the Degrees of Contestation, in difference of tyme, and diverse degrees of a waxing Evill, behooved to bee much diverse. And, neyther could the Case admit, or was it the LORD His will, that Contestation should bee, in the highest degree, till the Impietie came to the highest: though, even in the Growth, and subtill Successe, of that Mysterie of Iniquitie, manie, both mislyked it, and mourned for it: keeping, them-selues, the Name of GOD, and vttering, in their owne tymes, not obscure Signes of their Miscontentment.
The other Poynt, where-in you are deceived, and which, in the first rowme, I propounded, is; That vponupon Visibilitie, you conclude Sight. But, manie thinges, and manie tymes, will bee visible, which yet are not al-wayes seene. Doeth not Experience teach vsus, howe hardlie one Man will bee found out amōgst a thousand, evē by such as do both know him, and search after him? how long, then, may hee lurke vnseene, of such as neyther know him, nor thinke of him? And, in the midst of so great Repressing and Suppressing Tyrannie, what marvell, though they were, in common, vnseene, as not onelie beeing few, but forced also to lurke, and by GOD His Gracious Providence, covered from their Enemies furie? This beguyleth you, (Philomathes) that you account, no worship eyther to bee at all, or to bee visible, but which is separatelie openlie, and avowedlie practized, in the common view of all men. Which, manifolde Experience, and cleare Scripture, teacheth vsus, to bee an absurd Conception: and, which Case, neyther that course of tyme, and of the Evill, by GOD His permission, waxing, and obtayning in it, could suffer: and, which, in the wyse purpose of GOD His admirable Dispensation, was neyther needfull, nor expedient.
Eriphilus.
Did I not devine, rightlie, (Eubulus) to what pintches this Poynt would dryue you? When all is done, what doe you, but vanish away, in your Invisibilitie; giving vsus a Church, by miere imagination? A Church, invisiblie visible, and, visiblie invisible. Are you not ashamed, so to dallie? Our Church was al-wayes visible, (say you) but it was not seene: and, I pray you, what a visible Church, is that, which none doeth see?
Eubulus.
Ajax, transported with furie, (Eriphilus) didVII. slay manie sakelesse Sow, in stead of Vlysses. And, you are, now, in great chafe, with your owne Shadow. I did not say, neyther ever mynded I to say, That none did see our Church: but, I, justlie, taxed a false Conclusion, led from VISIBILITIE, to common, and continuall seeing. For, manie thinges are visible, which yet neyther are, in common, nor al-wayes seene. And, this maketh not our Church invisiblie visible; but it sheweth him, who will deny it, to bee visiblie blynde. I acknowledge, That, how-so-ever Antichristian Darknesse, hath over-gone the whole Church, in common, yet that ever still, with-in the compasse of that Vsurpation, vnderunder the common Ensigne, were numbers of true, and lawfull Worshippers, and, a true, and lawfull Worship: which were, al-wayes, visible, by the Ensigne, and common Bodie: as whyte is visible, in the rucke and heape, how-so-ever covered with the over-going Chaffe, or Strae, till the Fanner come, and purge the Floore. And, to come yet more neare, (Eriphilus) I say, That they were not onlie visible in this sort, but, al-so, in their persons, and practise of pure Worship: and, that they were seene, al-so, al-be-it not, in common, perceived. For, manie thinges, will bee both visible, and seene, al-so, which yet will escape perception, even of the Seers. Yea, which you will yet, perhaps, more admire, I affirme, That they were not onlie visible, and seene, but perceived, al-so; though not in common, nor of the blynded worldlie sort, (which was the LORD His Providence, for their preservation;) but only of theirRev. 14 sealed Brethren, who were brought from the Earth; and, being spirituall Virgines, onlie got Eyes, to see, and perceiue; and, Eares, to heare, and vnderstand, that sweet, and hightuned Song, which the Beast's stupified Sectators could neyther heare, nor learne. Now, then, though I affirme, and that justlie, That from Visibilitie, one may not conclude of seeing: neither, from seeing, may one conclude of perceiving: neyther, from both seeing, and perceiving, of seeing, and perceiving, in common: yet I deny not, but freelie, and truelie affirme, That our Church was all-wayes visible, seene, and perceived, but not of such as had no Eyes. Doe you not know, that manie thinges may bee visible; which yet, through the blyndnesse of beholders, are not seene? yea, and manie things are seene, which even the seers, (through mis-regard, or over-vayling mist, or GOD, in justice, benumming their Senses) yet, will not take vp, nor perceiue: which, yet, the illuminated, will both see, and perceiue clearlie.
To reason, then, from Visibilitie, to common sight; or, from Visibilitie, and common sight, to conclude common Perception; or, to conclude of what is not seene, or perceived, in common, That it is not seene, or perceived, at all; yea, is not visible; yea, is not at all; it is such a dead kynde of Argumentation, (Eriphilus) as, where-in all your choler will never kindle the lyfe of good Logicke. Howe manie Papistes, and howe much Popish worship, is, and that visible, within this YLAND, which, yet, is not seene, in common, or perceived? Yea, (Eriphilus) though I bee visible, and you doe, al-so, both see, and heare mee; yet, you neyther perceiue, nor vnderstand mee. How manie things will be lying, even hard by vsus; yea, before our Eyes; which, yet, will wee not, a long tyme, perceiue, though, sedulouslie, seeking after them? I aske you, (Eriphilus) was not Lot; were not his Guestes, the Angels, (in their condition, at that tyme;) were not his Wyfe, and Daughters; was not his House, and the Gates there-of, visible?
Eriphilus.
Doeth it agree with your pretended Gravitie, to aske of mee, such scornfull Questions?
Eubulus.
That you may see, howe I doe, verie pertinentlie,I. and seriouslie, aske this of you; I tell you, That, howe visible so-ever they were, yet they escaped the perception,… 11. of all SODOME, even greedilie groaping after them. The Sunne was visible, yea, & clearlie, both seene,…. 21. and shyning, in GOSHEN, when, not-with-standing, in all AEGYPT, was palpable Darknesse. And, what wonder, then, though that great Citie, which, spirituallie, Rev. 11. ….is called Sodome, and Aegypt, did not see, or perceiue, what, yet, was visible, seene, and shyning, in the midst of her? And, what marvell, that they are still so blynde; as, not to perceiue, howe these former thinges, in GOD His purpose, were Stampes of the lyke; but, greater Cases to fall out there-after? Was eyther ELISHA, or SAMARIA, 2. King. 6.or the Region, thorow which the ARAMITES were led, there-fore, eyther invisible, or not seene of them; because GOD syled their Eyes; that seeing, yet they should not perceiue? But, (Eriphilus) to be yet more playne, and to come even close to your hand. As, before, I cleared, how the Church continued al-wayes, al-be-it not al-wayes in one, and the same Condition: so, I tell you, now, That the Church was ever, and in all Ages, visible; how-so-ever not al-wayes in a-lyke measure of Health, and Spirituall Vigour: which is your Mens grosse Fallacie. A Man, even brought to bed with sicknesse, is no les visible, than when he walked abroad, in perfect health, albeit neither seen of so many, nor so healthfull as before. Your men are ridiculous, in asking incessantlie, where our Church was, before Luther: wheras the Church now, the Church in Luther's dayes, & the Church before his days, even vpward, to the infancie therof, is, & was, still one, & the same Church, & always visible: but, first, in health, & healthsom vigour: next, by degrees, contracting sicknes: at length, heavilie infected, affected, & afflicted, with that disease, whereof you, Eriphilus, are dangerously sick, & Philomathes hath somwhat tasted also: & now is convalescing, through the Medicine of the Word & Spirit: and alyke in all these cases, was ever, & is, visible, & seen also, according to her distinct conditions, in diverse tymes. Neyther hauehave wee another Church, or a new Church, as your Doctors would perswade the Simple: but the same Church; & a renewed Church. Neither hauehave we forsaken the Vnitie, & Cōmunion of the Church, within which, & wherof we stil are: but we hauehave forsaken Babel, in the Church which hath …firmed her selfe agaynst al Cure. For, howsoever the sicke Bodie, was the Church, yet the Sicknesse oppugning, and wasting the lyfe there-of, was never the Church: and, albe-it in it, yet never of it. Now, (Eriphilus) you see, I am farre from dallying, and, am come to more playne Dealing, than, perhaps, well pleaseth you.
Philomathes.
Verilie (Eubulus) I can not denye, but your Reasons are sound, and solide; and, your Distinctions are subtill. But, it seemeth exceeding strange, that anie such Case, and so long a tyme, should hauehave befallen the Church of GOD: which maketh mee yet to suspect, that your Argumentes, are more out of subtiltie of Logicke, than according to the Veritie of the Matter: and, that, how-soever they evince, indeede, clearlie, a Possibilitie of such a Case: yet, that anie such Case, in trueth, was, they will not conclude: And, it were a rash Conception, so to thinke of holie Church. So that, according as▪ I sayde before, you seeme still to reason, but A posse, ad esse, from Possibilitie, to Reall existence, which will not necessarilie follow.
Eubulus.
I confesse, (Philomathes) that the Case is, and will seeme, strange, to anie not acquaynted with the cleare course of Scripture, and the LORD His wyse, and wonderfull Dispensation, clearlie fore-tolde there-in, and fallen out accordinglie. For, the workes of GOD are wonderfull, and, Hee is marvelous, in the Case of His Saynctes. As, great is the Mysterie of Godlinesse; so, al-so, is that of Iniquitie. And, without true illumination, to know the Scriptures of GOD, none ever shall attayne, eyther to the healthsome Knowledge of the one, or happie Discoverie of the other. But, (Philomathes) seeing you confesse, That I hauehave clearlie evinced the Possibilitie of such Apostasie in the Church, as where-by Errour may take place, in common; and, that, yet, not-with-standing, GOD may, verie well, preserue Trueth, and true, and lawfull Worship, and Worshippers, al-be-it, in common, vnperceived: and, considering the manie, and capitall Poyntes, where-with so manie famous Churches, now, so long tyme, charge your Church of Rome: I aske you, If in this Case, you thinke her well defended, with the pretended Impossibilitie of Erring? Or, if shee hath not great reason, both to suspect, what possiblie might befall her; and, carefullie, to descende, to an exact Tryall, whether it hath so befallen her, or not?
Philomathes.
Certaynlie, I thinke the weyght of so great Poyntes, as are in Controversie, to-gether with the Challenge of so manie Churches, requyre no lesse, than that▪IX Matters bee condignlie tryed, and examined: and, that a prowde Denyall, will not justifie anie, in such a Case.
Eubulus.
Well, (Philomathes) and, in so clearlie evincedX. a Possibilitie of Apostasie, as requyreth a condigne Tryall; whether, thinke you, is it the surest way, to put the stable Trueth of GOD, revealed in His Worde, to this inaequitable, and vnsure Condition; as eyther to approoue it selfe, by the Multitude, and Continuance of Holders, who, yet, may erre, or, then, to bee rejected? Or, rather, to laye, for a sure Ground; That, seeing it is Trueth, there-fore, it ought to subdue all Myndes, and take place agaynst all Praejudices, of Praescription, Praerogatiue of Holders, Tymes, Places, or Persons? Because it dependeth, not on the vnstable Humours of Men, who are but, naturallie, Liars, and, may bee deceived. But, is, in it selfe, so cleare; as, beeing admitted, purelie, to pleade for it selfe, it will, sufficientlie, approoue, and, justifie, it selfe, agaynst all, howe stronglie so-ever grounded Errour; and all, eyther Qualitie, or Multitude of Mayntayners, or Praescription of Tyme. In short, (Philomathes) whether ought the Trueth of GOD, to bee subject to Men? or, ought all Men, to bee subject vntounto it?… And, which of these two Reasons, conclude strongest? and, on which, may a Christian Soule, best rest? This hath long had place, and Approbation, with most Men: and,… there-fore, is the Trueth. Or, this is GOD His Trueth▪ there-fore, it ought to hauehave place, even agaynst all praejudice what-so-ever. And, how-so-ever it hath appeared, to hauehave beene perished, from amongst Men; yet, certaynlie, it hath remayned all-wayes.
Philomathes.
Verilie, I can not denye, but that it were a sacrilegious remeritie, to subject the Trueth of GOD, to Man: al-be-it, agayne, in the Question, what is that Trueth, I thinke, the judgement of the Church, and what hath long bene held of Her, should be much regarded; and not rejected, without great, and verie cleare Reasons.
Eubulus.
That I yeeld you, (Philomathes:) and truelie, if, in…I. the present Poynt of our Disputation, we had or could bring no more, but, (as you alleadged) the Possibilitie of the case: where-of no Evidence might bee produced, that accordinglie it had fallen out. And, if my Reasons, and Distinctions, in this Matter, were but from quirkes of Logicke, and not according to clearelie-fore-tolde, and, accordinglie, fallen-out Events, you had the lesse reason to regard them. But, besides the Possibilitie, which I hauehave evinced; & besides the vndoubted Trueth it selfe, so clearlie delivered in Scripture, as may sufficientlie certifie a Soule, that, accordinglie, the Case hath fallen. The holie Ghost (for our farder Resolution) hath also, (according to both the Possibilitie, and the event, in effect, agreeable) so clearlie fore-tolde the whole particular Case, and Course, as, I may boldlie say, to whom it appeareth strange, They are yet great Strangers, in the written Word of GOD: and, in such great measure of Light, as now, in GOD'S singular MercieMercy, is revealed, who disdayne to learne, what even Artificers (in such open and large offer of Grace) are holden to know, they are worthilie blynded, in GOD'S just indignation. Wee are not onlie fore-warned, by the LORD Him-selfe, in the dayes of His flesh; and, agreeablie,w, 24. there-after, by the Apostle Paul, of such a common Apostasie in the Church, as where-by Antichrist should obtayne a Throne, even in the Temple of GOD: but, also, most amplie,…l. 2. particularlie, and delightfullie, vnderunder most goodlie, and significant Types, in the Booke of the Revelation, the whole course of Storie, is plainlie, and at length expressed. So, as (Philomathes) I hauehave not alleadged what probablie might be▪ but what the holie GHOST hath playnlie, and particulie, fore-tolde, and, fore-warned vsus, should come to passe: and, which, accordinglie, wee see clearlie performed. Yo… Men are deceived, because they knowe neyther the …criptures, nor the Power of GOD. And, I am so farre from seeking subtill Evasions, in this Argument, as, I, vprightlie, protest, in the Presence of HIM, Whome I serue, in the GOSPELL of HIS Sonne; That, (laying aside the verie selfe cleare, and infallible Groundes of Trueth, delivered in Scripture, where-vponupon agaynst all, eyther Probabilities▪ or Praesumptions, our Fayth may, and must, solidlie relye) there is no Reason, in the Worlde, so effectuall, to assure my Soule, of the Veritie of our Religion, and, that wee are of CHRIST His true Church; as are the verie chiefe thinges, which our Adversaries doe object agaynst vsus. Neyther anie so pregnant a Motiue, to perswade mee, (laying aside the consideration of their playne haereticall Opinions) that they are the Antichristian Bodie; as even those things, where-in they doe, chiefelie, and, most insolentlie, glorie. Which, to cleare vntounto you, at such length, and in such evidence, as I well could, and, the Matter, al-so, requyreth; it were a longer Speach, than this short Occasion of Conference affordeth vsus. But, if you list to take paynes, you may reade, what I hauehave, at more length, written heereof, in my DISPVTATIONS, FOR OVR CALLINGES, and, in my COMMENTARIE, onRevel. 11. and 14 the REVELATION. VVhichWhich, with the little that I hauehave nowe sayde, when you hauehave more deeplie considered; then, if you remayne yet vnsatisfyed, how-so-ever I neyther louelove, to contende vvith the Humourous, nor to multiplye Babling, vponupon Blockes; yet, I vvill, at your Desyre, not sticke, to take more paynes, vponupon your Ingenuitie.
Philomathes.
I will, GOD willing, reade those Bookes, where-vntounto you hauehave sharpened mine Appetite, by that which you hauehave nowe spoken: having, there-by, so filled mine Heart, with great Doubts, of such things, as I accounted inexpugnable poynts: that, I can not choose, but to insist, till I bee setled, as it shall please GOD to informe me, in that which is the right Way of His Feare.
Philadelphus.
How invisible so-ever wee bee, (Eriphilus) and how short so-ever you bee of sight, yet, I hope, you may, now, perceiue your owne foyle, in the chiefe Flowre of your Forces: so, as Eubulus hath not (as you presumed) evanished, in Invisibilitie, but, hath made all your, long, and vaynlie vaunted of, Visibilitie, to vanish, in a vayne Smoake.
What's visible; but, there-to Visibilitie,
In common, doth, though not a-lyke, conveane?
Why should the Bryde, without all Probabilitie,
Visible hers, then singularlie, wiene?
Thinges visible, attour, are not aye seene:
And thinges ev'n seene, yet will escape Perception,
Of lightned Men: and what perceived beene,
Mules agaynst that, will madlie make Exception.
The Church was aye seene, visible, perceived:
Of cleare, but no of rakie Eyes, that raved.
Philomathes.
Whether wee hauehave anie such Foyle, as you alleadge; or, you such Victorie, as you presume, (Philadelphus) you are al-wayes readie to sing your owne Triumph. But, now, al-be-it wee hauehave, indeede, al-readie passed thorow these Markes, where-in wee esteeme our selues strongest; and, that Eubulus hath (I must confesse) answered, more than I exspected: yet, I pray you, let vsus heare what he hath to say agaynst the rest. The next Marke, is VNITIE: and thus our Poet speaketh of it.