Dialogue Wherein a Romish Rhyme is Confuted, Chapter 4
CHAPTER IV.
CONTINUANCE.
THis is another Marke, most sure,…ut yet, in it …l be… a tenth, it shall re…e, and shall eaten, as a …-tree, and as Oake, whose stance is in …, when they … their leaues: …he holie seed, …ll be the sub…ce there-of. …sai. 6. 13. …onsuetudo … tre non debet, … minus veritas consuet… … veritate vetu… est error…, … propter … errore sequ… veritatem. Cyprian, ad Pompe…. Nova et p… grina censenda sunt qu… Christ… non doc…it▪ nec omnia qua vetera sunt admit…s debent. Ibid….
The Church of CHRIST must still endure;
According as our Saviour sayd,
When for Saynct Peter Hee had prayd:
Simon, thy Fayth shall never fayle:
The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle.
The holie Ghost, your Comforter,
Shall remayne with you ever-more:
And I, My Selfe, your surest Friend,
Will bee with you, vntounto the ende.
Saynct Paul sayeth the same Speach;
There shall bee al-wayes Men to preach:
Apostles, Doctors, and the lyke,
Into the Church Catholicke.
If these bee not the Church of Rome,
Then will I bee converted soone.
Eubulus.
You must not expect of mee, (Philomathes) that I will, so▪ vnprofitablie, spende tyme, as to sift out, narrowlie,I. all your Man's grosse Over-sightes; because I eye but the mayne poynt: and, there-fore, you hauehave not to thinke, that eyther I spye no…, or doe approoue, what in him I passe over, vntaxed. For, as, heere, hee vaynlie, and ydlie, payneth him-selfe, to prooue a poynt, which no man will denye, (That the Church continueth al-wayes:) So, for prooving heere-of, to alleadge, the particular Promise, made to Peter, That his Fayth should not fayle, hee is ridiculous, and sophisticall. For, in that place, the LORD speaketh of Peter's particular Fayth, that Spirituall Vertue, begotten in him, by the holie Ghost, which was his Victorie, where-by hee over-came, in that his temptation: and not the Doctrine of Fayth, as your Man hath, now, twyse, dotingly, expounded. As if the Falling, or Standing, of the Church, did hang on anie one particular Man his Apostasie, or Stabilitie. Hee, no lesse audaciouslie, fathereth a Lie, on the Apostle Paul, (That, al-wayes, there shall remayne Apostles in the Church:) For, except hee escape, by aequivocation, it is most certayne, that, in the most proper, and strict Signification of Apostleship, as it was an extraordinarie Function, but for a tyme, till the Foundation of the Church should bee layde, and the Canon closed: So, how-so-ever others, succeeding in Pastorall, and ordinarie Offices of the Church, and teaching the same Doctrine, and so keeping the Foundation layde by them, are, truelie, the Successours of the Apostles: Yet, that anie did succeede to the Apostleship, it is extreamlie false. For, the Church being constituted, extraordinarie Offices ceased; as did the extraordinarie Gift, and manner of Calling, which maketh the Office. And, I even muze, if your owne Men, will not judge, this your Poet, worthie of punishment, that will hauehave Apostles continuing, al-wayes, plurallie, in the Church: seeing you all doe account this Dignitie singular to the Pope; who onlie, now, in all the World, takes to him-selfe, the Monopolie of Apostolicall Benedictiō.
Philomathes.
It is the mayne poynt, where-in wee would bee resolved. For these other things, I am not to make Argument. Can you, al-wayes, denye, but that CONTINVANCE, is a proper Marke of the Church?
Eubulus.
It is no more a proper Note of the Church, thanII. Colour and Stature, are proper Notes of a Man. And, (that I forget not my promise, as I come on them, one by one, to shew, the vayne sophistrie of your man's mayne Proposition, in all) I affirme, That, as Vniversalitie was foolishlie brought by him, for a discerning Marke, betwixt Acclaimers; so, also, is this, of Continuance: not, that I deny it, to bee an attribute, and common accident: for, certaynlie, since her first beginning, the Church both hath continued, and shall continue al-wayes. But, doe you holde this good Logicke, in your man, (Philomathes) of common accidents, to conclude, that they are proper Notes, and discerning Marks? you know, that Proprium, is but one of diverse kynds of Predication: and, that what-so-ever, is proper to any thing, it conveaneth (as Schooles speake) Omni soli, & semper: that is, To all, to onlie, and al-wayes. But, Continuance, could not bee sayde of the Church, Semper: that is, at all tymes. For, at the first moment of Adam and Evaes Creation, (who were the Church) Continuance, of them then, had bene no true Predication, when as yet, no tyme had run. Besides, what-so-ever is a proper Note, it is so converted with the subject, where-of it is the propertie; as that, if Continuance were a proper Note of the Church; then, as none could be the Church, but which had continued, and did still continue: so, what-so-ever did continue, behooved to bee the Church, which you see, were extreamlie absurd. For, Heaven, and Earth, continue to this day: Satan, continueth a Liar, and a Murtherer, from the beginning; and his Children continue Liars, and Murtherers, lyke their Father: and, the evill Seed continueth, even amidst the good Seede, in the Lord's owne Fielde, till the last day of separation. So, as if with anie probable shew, your man would had CONTINVANCE, counted a concluding Marke of the Church, hee should hauehave added there-to, this Modification, That, what companie hath continued in the true Fayth, and Worship of CHRIST, that is His true Church. But, then, if hee should assume, that the Church of Rome, hath onlie continued in the true Fayth, and lawfull Worship of CHRIST, wee will denye it, as extreamlie false: and, tell him, that hee continueth impudent, to assume the Question. And, thus, you may perceiue, (Philomathes) that your man's most lykelie Marks, yet are no proper Markes, till they bee modified, by that one, and onelie demonstratiue, and truelie discretiue Marke, which at first I layde downe vntounto you.
Philomathes.
But, (Eubulus) you must not escape vsus at so cheape a rate. For, even vponupon CONTINVANCE, a common accident, as you call it, I will establish our man's conclusion, for the Church of Rome. You will confesse, that the Church of CHRIST, hath continued al-wayes, since her first beginning, and must al-wayes continue, till her LORD'S returne: so, as shee can never fall away, absolutelie, from His Light, and Lyfe.III.
Eubulus.
This, I heartilie yeelde you.
Philomathes.
You will yeelde mee this also, That no companie can be sayd, to continue in the Trueth, Light, and Lyfe of CHRIST, which continueth not, in anie profession of His Name, or worship there-of, at all. For, to vse your owne comparison, al-be-it Colour, and Stature will not conclude, of the thing coloured, and quantified, that it is a man: yet this will bee a sure Position, That what hath neyther Colour, nor Stature at all, it can bee no man.IV.
Eubulus.
This, I yeelde you also: but where-vponupon, you may see, that your conclusion, shall bee but negatiue, to exclude vponupon defects, & not affirmatiue, to argue vponupon demonstratiue Markes.
Philomathes.
Then, advert, how I will, even affirmatiuelie, conclude, for the Church of Rome:
That Companie hath onlie cōtinued, in the true Light, and Lyfe of CHRIST, (and so is His Church) which, onelie, of all others, hath retayned HIS Name, or anie Worship there-of.
But, for manie Ages, the Church of Rome hath onlie, of all Companies in the Worlde, retayned the Name of CHRIST, or anie Worship there-of.
There-fore, the Church of Rome, hath onlie continued in the true Light, and Lyfe of CHRIST: and so, onlie, is His true Church.
Eriphilus.
You finde, perhaps, Eubulus, that our Syllogismes, are poynted also.
Eubulus.
I will presentlie prooue, what eyther Poynt, orV. Edge, it hath; and, how piercing so-ever you presume it to bee, (Eriphilus) yet make it to bee found as phlegmaticke, as you are cholericke. Of your Syllogisme then, Philomathes, (where-by you conclude no thing to Romes advantage, if any other Churches may bee shewed, to hauehave continued in anie Profession, or Worship of the Name of CHRIST) I grant the Proposition to bee true: for, no question, but that onlie with-in the compasse of the visible Church, and vnderunder the common Ensigne of Profession, the true Church, and all true Christians, are, and hauehave continued, al-wayes. And, as where-ever the Ensigne is, and the Name of CHRIST professed, how corruptedlie so-ever it bee in common, yet, there, possiblie, yea, probablie, (I durst say assuredlie) are some true, though weake, Christians: So, where that Name is not at all named, nor anie worship there-of, there no Church can bee sayde to bee at all. Your Assumption is both false, and deceitfull. And, to shew it evidentlie to bee such, if I should but oppose to you, the Aethiopian, and Indian Churches, which hauehave continued, and not onelie without anie Communion, but al-most without anie knowledge of the Church of Rome; what could you finde, to say, against these Instances? but, I will bee so indulgent, vntounto you, as not to vrge them on you: I will, other-wayes, sufficientlie, so discover the deceit of your Assumption, as the falsehood of it may bee clearlie seene: for it contayneth a double fallacie; one in the name of the Church of Rome; the other, in that which is affirmed of it. For, if by the Church of Rome, bee vnderstood, the whole bodie of the visible Church, on which, for some Ages, by craft and ambitious vsurpation of Antichrist, in-throned in the Temple, the Character, Name, or Number ofRevel. 13. the Beast, were imposed in common: how-so-ever thousands, ever were in that communitie, who, rejecting, and detesting them, retained the Name of the Lambe His Father, and Character there-of; and were of the 144000 sealedRevel. 1… and … ones: and, manie, who, in simplicitie, received the Name, or Number of the Beast, yet never received his Character. Then, sophisticallie, and deceitfullie, you reason from the accressing Sore, and Gangrene in the bodie, (and of which Sore, the name is but improperlie and tyrannicallie imposed on the bodie) to the bodie affected there-with. When wee pleade agaynst the Church of Rome, wee pleade not against that bodie absolutelie, where-in that evill was, and that so farre obtaining, as it named the bodie after it selfe, (whileRevel. 2. 13. the Church of GOD dwelt, even where Satan's Throne was) but wee pleade agaynst the evill, in, but not of, the bodie: not agaynst all, who were called the Romane Church, or Papists, or were counted of that number: But agaynst Papalitie, or Antichristianisme. Not agaynst all, who were, thorow common Contagion, perhaps, lightlie touched, or taynted with the Evill: But agaynst the Characterized companie, Antichrist his mancipated Slaues, and in whom the pestilent Evill, had eaten vp all true lyfe, and sense. So, as in this Case, for arrogating anie poynt, to the Mischiefe which wee oppugne, to oppose vntounto vsus, the common bodie, even heavilie affected, and, in common, over-gone with it; it is no lesse absurd sophistication, than if one should confound the Dropsie, Iaundies, or Gangrene in the Bodie, with the Bodie in which they are, and drawe Conclusions from the one, to the other. If all the Bodie, were the Evill, then were there no Bodie. But, even a sicke Bodie, is yet a Bodie: and, how-so-ever so affected, in common, and, no part appeareth to be fullie free, but, that the Sore possesseth all: yet, so long as the Bodie liveth, and mooveth, performing naturall Functions; it evinceth, that some Noble partes yet resist the Disease; so as the Bodie, al-be-it heavilie affected, yet dieth not: yea, getting the true Medicine, and Divine Purgation of the Word and Spirit, will expell the Evill, and notiue Humour, and recover Health; as Experience hath prooved clearlie, in manie Reformed, both Churches and Persons.
Thus, (Philomathes) if in your Assumption, you meane, by the Church, that whole Bodie, absolutelie, on which that Name was fraudfullie, and tyrannicallie, imposed: then you conclude not your Poynt, but deceiue, by Aequivocation, (A dici, ad esse) from So called, and, wronglie called, to So is; confounding that knowne Distinction of Logicke, foreign, where-of I spake before. And if, by the Church of Rome, you signifie the Papalitie, and Evill in the Bodie, which wee impugne, (as you must, if you evince ought agaynst vsus) then is your Assumption clearlie false. For, both before that Evill invaded the Bodie, the Bodie was: and, even at the tyme of the waxing Sore, yet still continued, brooking some healthsome remnant of Spirituall Sense, and Lyfe: and, now, at last, by the Medicinall Vertue of the Word, and Spirit, is recovering Health, and destroying the, formerlie, destroying Disease.
This will bee yet more cleare, by the discoverie of that other Fallacie, where-by, in this Case, of the Churches continuance, your Men partlie illude, and partlie are illuded. For, because the Church continueth al-wayes, they esteeme, and conclude falselie, That, there-fore, shee continueth still in one, and the same Condition of Light, and Lyfe: that is, That Trueth, and lawfull Worship, hath al-wayes helde place, and borne swey there-in, in common: so as what-soever Companie, or Doctrine, most, in common, obtayned, and carried Vogue, that was the true Church of CHRIST, and the true and Orthodox Fayth. And this is most absurdly false, and evinced to be so, not onlie by evident Experience, but also by cleare Scripture. For, all … Church, & Trueth in her, hath continued alwayes; … … she bene subject to manie Wrestlings, Victories, Kything … Eclypses: Shee is some-tyme darkened, (sayth Augustine) and is, as it were, over-clowded, ad vinc…. …. 48.with multitude of Offences: some-tyme, by tranquillitie of tyme, quyet & free she showeth her selfe: some-tyme is covered, and troubled with the waues of tribulations, and tentations. We confesse, that the Church hath continued always: but not as the presuming Whoore boasteth, I sit, being a Queene, & shall see no mourning: but, oft-tymes,Revel. 18. 7. Isai. 54. 1…. afflicted, & tossed with tempest, & having no comforter. She hath still continued, but, as a Woman, (even at first, while shee was yet cloathed with the Sunne) traveling, and crying out, with payne: Revel. 12.next, persecuted cruellie: thirdly, fleeing to the Wildernesse: fourthly,Revel. 13. lurking, and fed there, while the beast of Satan's power maketh the Earth to follow him, by false pretence of the Lambe'sRevel. 8. and horns. She hath cōtinued alwayes: yet so, as sometime (while the Earth, Sea, Fountayns & Rivers, Starres, Sun & Moone,Revel. 14. and are eyther, first, in a great part, burnt, corrupted, made bitter, eclypsed, or totally, at last, darkened) she consisted of a few secret sealed ones, exempted, in GOD'S merciful care, frō a common evill. Sometime, againe, she is of a number innumerable,Revel. 7. 9. Revel. 11. with Palms in hād. Her state hath bene, sometime, as the temple closed, in relation to al the holy citie, & court of the tēple, trodden vnderunder foot of the Heathen: her Pastours, some-time, few, secret, ministring within the Temple, in sorrow, for prevayling Evils; yet long without blood-shed, as being vnperceived. Sometime, again, vpō application of the true measuring Reede, (for discerning the true Church, within the compas of so importable an impietie) cruelly murdered, & barbarouslie intreated, evē with applause of the World. Sometime, agayn, in greater vigour, terrifying their enemies; &, in open view,Revel. 14. Revel. 1…. 12. Revel. 18. …. flying thorow the midst of Heavē, with the ever-lasting Gospell; & separated from incurable Contagion, to come vp hither. Sometime, as now at last, comming so down on the earth, as it is all lightened, with the glorious shyning of the Gospell. Wee know, that the true Church hath continued al-wayes: Yet so, as, in a common Apostasie, where-by Antichrist obtayned a Throne, even in the Temple of GOD; and all the…es. 2. Earth followed the Beast, receiving his Character, Name, or Number, (while to the Beast his wondering Sectators, and…l. 13. charactized Slaues, it appeared impossible, that anie such Companie could bee) shee consisted of 144000 secret, sealed,…l. 14. and chaste ones, following the Lambe; and having a powerfull, and plentifull Dispensation of Grace, and a sweet sound of well-tuned Harps; al-be-it none could eyther heare, or learne, their Song, but them-selues.
Finallie, wee acknowledge, That the Gates of Hell never prevayled, or shall prevayle, agaynst the Church: but yet, they hauehave often assayled her, strangelie. And thus, in what-so-ever sense, your Assumption, Philomathes, (That the Church of Rome, hath onelie, of all Companies in the Worlde, for manie Ages, retayned the name of CHRIST, and anie Worship there-of) is eyther deceitfullie sophisticall, or evidentlie false. And so your Conclusion commeth to nought.
Philadelphus.
This poynted Syllogisme of yours, (Eriphilus) E…bulus hath so blunted, as it will scarse serue to pricke a Pudding. And if neyther CONTINVANCE can bee a proper Marke of the Church; and beeing modified, so as it may best seeme to bee one, yet is falselie assumed of Rome; I see no better Conclusion, but that wee let her continue the Mother of Whoordomes, and that wee seeke the BRYDE, vvhere Shee may bee better found out.
Of Propers, it's a Propertie, that ever
Of their owne Subjectes, they are surelie sayde:
Satan shall nev'r CHRIST from His Church dissever.
Continuance yet can not, tho, bee made
Her proper Marke: let see how shee it had
The verie moment of her first Creation.
Some tract of Tyme must bee, of force, fore-layde,
Where it is made a proper Praedication.
This Poynt is als accorded amongst Clerks,
No Common Cases can bee Proper Marks.
Philomathes.
Well, (Eubulus) giving you, that the Church continued not al-wayes in one, and the same Condition, of obtayning Trueth; and, that, possiblie, Errour might hauehave prevayled in the whole Church, in common, but not vniversallie, in each within it: yet, except some visible, and seene Companie, (how small so-ever) may bee produced by you, who hauehave professed your Fayth, & Doctrine; to whom you may, with anie show of Reason, acclayme the Title of the true Bodie; & so, lay over, on vsus, the name, and blame, of the Sore: vvhat is all your reasoning, but a poore, and verie improbable Paralogisme, A posse, ad esse, as Schooles speake? And the poynt of our Syllogisme, is not yet so farre blunted, as Philadelphus would make it.
Eubulus.
To evince the possibilitie, it sufficiently meetethVI. all your Men: who, agaynst our Demonstrations, of GOD His Trueth with vsus, and the Apostasie of the Church of Rome, oppose, al-wayes, and onlie, to vsus, the impossibilitie, that anie such Case should befall the Church. So as mine Argument is not, as you speake, A posse, ad esse: but, of that where-of wee evidentlie evince the Esse, and you denye the Posse, to cleare the certayntie of both. But I see whither you tende: for you come, now, to vnderunder-proppe your declyning CONTINVANCE, vvith as weake a Warrand, of VISIBILITIE; vvhichwhich is your Man's next Marke, & which I hauehave, all-readie, so marred, with that which hath bene sayd to CONTINVANCE, as I shall hauehave but small a doe to hogh the Proppe; that, so, both may tumble downe, in the Dust, to-gether.
Eriphilus.
I pray you, (Philomathes) goe forward, to the Marke of VISIBILITIE: vvhichwhich, in the Continuance of the Church, commeth most fitlie to bee considered. And, this Marke shall best cleare our Church, and make Eubulus to bee seene, in all his Subtilties: For, so shall a Church bee found to hauehave continued, if shee hath continued visible: And you will perceiue Eubulus so pintched, with this Note, as he will vanish away, in his Invisibilitie; and will giuegive vsus a Church. continuing, for-sooth, a thousand yeares, by miere imagination.
Eubulus.
If I did so farre distrust our Cause, (Eriphilus)VII. as that I would, there-fore, seeke to escape by Subtilties, why would I hauehave suffered my selfe, (and that vnnecessarilie) to bee drawne a-side, by you, to so ydle a Disputation, about that, where-of it is shame, for anie resolved Christian, once to make question? For, how-so-ever, that, for Philomathes better satisfaction, I was, and am, contented to deale thus; yet, what a senselesse thing, in effect, is this, That the Trueth of GOD, (so clearlie revealed, and, which, by anie, having Spirituall Eyes, is as easilie discerned from Errour, as Light is from Darknesse) for Man's vayne humour, should bee put to this forme, and Rule of Tryall; That, except it may bee cleared, where, and with whome, it hath visiblie continued, wee will prowdlie, and rebelliouslie, reject it? Which is no lesse, yea, much more, both ridiculous, and vnjust; than, if the Sunne, long lapped vp, vnderunder Clowdes, and, there-after, breaking foorth, brightlie, should, therefore, by Dolts, bee denyed, to bee the true Sunne; and, that it were but some Counterfey…, and never-before-seene Comet: Because, for-sooth, their weake Eyes had not continuallie perceived, all the particular progresse of it. VVhereas, in anie true Sparkle of a Godlie, and Christian Disposition, and right Spirituall Wisdome, wee should thus reason: This is, evidentlie, the Trueth of GOD; and, there-fore, how-so-ever it hath not appeared, to continue, or keepe place; yet, I am certayne, that it hath never, all-to-gether, fayled, from amongst GOD His Children. Andt, his is Haeresie. There-fore, howe great place so-ever it hath had, or, how long so-ever it hath borne swey, even in the Holie…vel. 11. …. Citie, and Court of the Temple, yet it is clearlie to bee casten out.
And, in the beginning of our Dispute, I layde such Groundes, of the Evidencie, and Sufficiencie of Holie Scripture, for full Resolution, in these Poyntes; as I might, well anough, hauehave excused my selfe, from diverting, thus vaynlie, with you, to these Questions, eyther of Continuance, or Visibilitie; if I were in anie such perill, by your Praerogatiues in them, as you praesume. But, this cleareth you, (Eriphilus) that you are, now, come to your strongest piece: for anie feare where-of, I will not yet so farre vanish, as you wiene: But, even dismasking your Man, of this vayne, and so-much-vaunted-of Visard, of Visibilitie, I will, GOD willing, show him, in discerning of GOD His Church, to bee visiblie blynde: and, will not giuegive you a Church, by imagination, but, continuing, all-wayes, reallie, and visible, though not to Mules.
Philomathes.
Verilie, you make mee though not to vanish, yet to wonder at a little; That you confesse, the true Church, to hauehave beene all-wayes visible: and, will make me wonder, yet more, if you performe what you promise. For, I ever imagined, that all your Defence, in this Poynt, had beene, to clayme vntounto the Invisibilitie of the Church. But, you hauehave sharpened mine Appetite, to heare you of this Matter. Thus, then, our Poet speaketh of this Marke.