Answer Unto Assertion that Church of Rome is the True Church, Answer 8
Answeare.
IF you meane by lawful successiō, those who shall succeed in the principall succession: that is the succession of trueth, there is no question of that, but such are to bee heard, as doe bring the trueth of the Apostles Doctrine with them: but if you doe binde the trueth to persons, who hauehave succeeded the Apostles in place, you knowe what hath bene prooued against this opiniō before, in your third note of the church, wherunto I referre you. You neuer reade that Cain, Nemrod, Ismael, Esau, Core, Dathan, and Abiram, professed a newe religion and a diuerse worship of God from the rest: the scripture chargeth them with no such matter, but with corrupt lyfe and wicked conuersation: You contend for doctrine and religion to keepe that with in a succession of Bishoppes and Priests, and to charge them who depart from that succession, with corruption in religion. To what ende then serueth this number and assembly of men, corrupt in lyfe, but not touched with heresie, vnlesse you thinke that whosoeuer is corrupt in life, mainteyneth by and by a false and corrupt religiō: and maketh a publique departure from the trueth: either else you had bene perswaded, that this nomber woulde hauehave made me afraid, once to hauehave aduentured, the trial of their strengths? Let it be graūted, that all these men here seuerally set downe and noted, as departers from the true succession: hauehave mayteyned Idolatry, and erected a false worshippe of God, departing from the trueth and true profession: What can you gather here vponupon, but that it is not lawful to departe from those who vphold and maintayne true religion? Now whether you or wee bee the maynteyners of the trueth that is the controuersie, and therefore you may geue these men good leaue to returne from whence they came, for any helpe that you are lyke to hauehave from them. It may bee if they were better examined, that they woulde say and speake greatly against you: for Cain a wicked man, had noe blessinge nor mercye for all his succession, albeit the birthright was his, and therfore the Priesthoode apperteyned vntounto him by lawful succession. Ismael the elder, and therefore a lawfull successor in the Priesthoode, yet a wicked member, and left vntounto posteritie no tradition but of persecution. Esau the elder and therfore in the succession of the Priesthoode, but yet hated of the Lord, and one who reserued fewe good traditions, that euer I coulde reade of to posteritie. Core, Dathan, and Abiram, of the tribe of Leui, lawfully intituled vntounto the office of the Priesthoode: the traditions that are deliuered vntounto posterity from them, are, that they were ranke rebelles against the Lord, and against Moses his annoynted. Wee are ready to prooue, that the Euangelist noteth your Churche,1. Iohn 2. and that you are they who hauehave departed from the Apostles, and the auncient churches: and for proofe of this, wee appeale not onelyonly vntounto the writinges of the Holy Ghost, the Canonicall Scriptures: but also vntounto that testimony, which Irenaeus before hath geuen of true knowledge, and of the state of the auncient Churche how to discerne it, and by what markes: and therefore wee say with Augustine against you: Exire non est sanae Doctrinae. And yet for al that it is not simply and without respect true, for if the Doctrine bee not sounde, it is as lawfull to departe from it, as it is vnlawful, to go from that which is good. So that to departe from any Doctrine, is not otherwyse lawfull or vnlawfull: but according as the Doctryne it selfe is good or bad, from the which hee doeth depart. All of these were wicked members, and yet within the priuiledge of this succession, which you woulde make such a defence against corruption, as that a man needed not to feare any more, if once hee had got that sanctuary vponupon his backe. Moreouer the greatest euilles that they are blamed for in the Scriptures, we are committed of them, before they left the society of the Churche, and children of God: whyle yet they were within the succession, howsoeuer you woulde seeme to perswade vsus, that they neuer departed from goodnesse, before they had taken their leaue of succession. You affirme out of Ambrose, that the order in the olde lawe, was a type and figure of that, which shoulde bee in the trueth vnderunder Christ, and therefore as the trueth was ioyned with the succession then, so is it nowe: but then (say I) it was not alwayes ioyned with the succession of Priestes, and therefore it is not to bee holden for a trueth, that now it shoulde bee so. And thus I prooue that in the olde lawe, the trueth wēt not alwayes with succession. In the Churche of Israell, the ordinare succession of Priests was interrupted and broken of, as appeareth in the first booke of the Kinges:1. Reg. cap. 12.31 cap. 19.18. and yet there was a Churche and great nomber of faithfull people, that kept the purity of Doctrine, and neuer bowed their knees vntounto Baal.
You may hereby plainely perceiue, that the trueth and purity of the worshippe of God, hath bene reserued: when yet the lawfull and ordinary succession of Priests failed. And the contrary is as plaine also, that there hath beene an ordinary and visible succession of Priestes: when notwithstanding the trueth was banished, & most grosse errours receiued. For at Ierusalem in the Reigne of the Kinge Achaz, there was an outwarde and visible succession of Priestes, yet the temple of God was shut vp, and Vrias the Priest, at the commandement of the Kinge, did publiquely prophane the worshippe of God, as appeareth 2. Chronic. cap. 28.24. and in the second booke of the Kinges cap. 16.15.16. 2. Chroni. 28.24. 2. Reg. 16.15.16And in lyke manner at the comminge of Christ, there was at Ierusalem an ordinary succession, for they succeeded Moses and sate in his seate: & yet for al that, their doctrine most corrupt, and the true church warned oftentymes by our sauiour Christ, to take heede of the leauen of the Scribes and Pharisees, who had the ordinary succession from Moses. You may therefore plainely see, that before Christ in the olde lawe, ther was purity of doctrine, without ordinary and visible succession of Priests, and likewyse ordinary and outwarde succession, without sincerity of Doctrine.
Wherupon I doe conclude wt Ambrose, that because the order of the Churche in the olde lawe, was a type of the state in the newe lawe vnderunder Christ: that trueth of doctrine, is not nowe bounde to an ordinary succession of Bishoppes. And if in the gouerment of that people, when all thinges were so visible and outwarde, for the capacity of them, (the manner it selfe of worshippe not excepted:) there was interruption of visible and ordinary succession: and the promise of succession was iustified to bee but with condition, so long as they did obserue the lawe of God: howe much more in this tyme, when the worshippe of God is not so externall, but inwarde in spirit and trueth, will the Lorde not bee bounde vntounto succession, when there shallbee a manifest defection, and falling away from the obedience of his woord. And you can not bee ignorant, that there is in the newe Testament,2. Thessa. 2. a plaine foretelling of a generall defection, which can no more stand, with a continual ordinary succession, then can Christ with Antichrist. And least any man shoulde imagine, that the Apostle doth but speake of some particular declining of this or that Church: the circumstances of the text, doe so set it foorth: as they doe leaue no doubt in the matter. For it is saide indefinitely, that he shall sit in the temple of God, & not with any restraint, that he shall sit in this or that temple, Church or place. And also, it is saide, that his comming shall be with all power, that all may receiue iudgement, which hauehave not beleued the trueth: so that the iudgement is not to come particularlie vponupon some one particular Churche or place, but generally vppon all that hauehave not beleeued and loued the trueth. And if succession hauehave suche priuiledges with it: that there is no danger of deceiuable doctrine, where it can be iustified to continue, why should not the Greeke Churches, as wel be beleeued for the trueth of their doctrine, being able to deriue their succession from the Apostles, as well as you. If succession hauehave in it such a blessing, in spreading out it selfe without interruption, how happeneth it, that the Churches planted at Antioch, Ephesus, and Corinth &c. hauehave felt no greater benifite by it? those can truly say, that the Apostles planted them & appointed Bishops ouer them. If succession then be so fruitefull in it selfe, what reason can bee rendred, why it should not take their, which may not be giuen in like manner, why it may likewise bee barren with you? They that shall reade the Prophetes with any diligence, and conscience to bee instructed in the state of the Church before Christ, and vnderunder the law: shall soone perceiue howe farre it is from the trueth, to take warrant from thence to binde the true faith & doctrine to a continual succession of priests. For thus saith Ierem. of the priests in his time:Ieremy. 2. The Priests saide not: Where is the Lord? & they that should minister the lawe knew me not: the pastors also offēded against me, & the Prophets prophecied in Baall. Ezechiel likewise telleth vsus, what the Prophetes were who taught the people in his time.Ezech. 13. O Israel (saith hee) thy Prophetes are like Foxes in the waste places, they hauehave seene vanitie and lying diuination, saying the Lorde saieth it, and the Lorde hath not sent them, therefore thus saith the Lord, because you hauehave spoken vanitie, and seene lyes, therefore beholde I am against you. Letting passe the time of Ieroboam, when all thinges were most corrupt in Religion: I will conclude with Malachie, touching the ordinary state of the Priestes in his time.Malach. 2. The Priestes lippes (sayth Malachie) shoulde preserue knowledge, and they should seeke the lawe at his mouth. But yee are gone out of the way, you hauehave caused many to fall by the lawe, yee hauehave broken the couenaunt of Leuy, sayth the Lord of hostes, therefore hauehave I also made you to bee despised, and vile before all people.
You may see what a daungerous doctrine it is, to tye the trueth vntounto a succession of Priests: and that if a man would so hauehave doone vnderunder the lawe, he should hauehave giuen sentence againste the Prophetes that were extraordynarily raysed vppe, to reforme bothe Priestes and people, with those Priestes and Prophetes, who had their office by orderly and ordinary succession & yet were seducers of the people. I doe therefore conclude with Ambrose against you, seing the order and state of the olde law was the type of the new: & in the olde Testament, the Priests who had succession of place and function, somtime did leaue the trueth & imbraced pestilent doctrine: that therefore succession nowe is no certaine marke, whereby a man may alwaies be sure to be directed vntounto the truth. You hauehave hitherto contended for a succession continuall and without interruption from the Apostles, to hauehave remained among you, as the safest treasure house of of the trueth: but this succession without interruption, you can not finde as yet: I pray you giuegive me leaue in a few words to try, not whether you hauehave a succession with out interruption, but whether you hauehave any succession at all from the Apostles.
The charge and office of the Apostles, is declared in the Gospel after Sainte Matthewe. Matth. 28.Goe and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the father, and the Sonne, & the holy Ghost, teaching them to obserue all thinges, whatsoeuer I hauehave commaunded you.
Their office consisteth in teaching and Preaching: (for they are charged to goe and teach all Nations) and in administration of the Sacramentes: and least any should imagine that they are set at liberty, to teache whatsoeuer liked them selues: there followeth by and by a restraint in these woordes: Teaching them to obserue whatsoeuer I hauehave commaunded you: If any clayme to bee their successours in that office, he must be a Teacher and Preacher vntounto men, not a sacrificer for them: And that whiche hee teacheth may not bee the inuention of man, but that which is commaunded from God.
They therefore doe necessaryly inforce vppon their successours an office & ministerie of Preaching and Teaching: and that of no other thinge, besides the same which God hath commaunded. Where their succession is there is a trueth of doctrine, and a teaching ministery thereof, whereby men them selues are offered as slain sacrifices vntounto God: hauing their corrupt affections subdued & slaine in them by doctrin & exhortatiō out of the word of god. your priests are instituted, not by preching the word of God, to sacrifice mē vntounto God: but by saying of certain prescript words, to sacrifice for mē vntounto god: & to make satisfaction for their sinnes, cōmitted against God. The duty required in an office being as the life thereof, & the place no other then the body: it falleth out, that all the succession which you plead for from the Apostles, (if it were graunted you) yet were it no other, then the body of the Apostles succession, without either the life or spirit thereof.
Touching your first demaūd, to wit, who he was that first preached that faith wc we do now profes:…ob. 23. I do answere wt the Apostle that it was christ Iesu. To th'other part of your demaūd, for the successiō of bishops, to wit, who was the 1. 2. & 3. bishop, &c. I hauehave alredy answered in the 3. note of the church. where your own witnesses hauehave confessed, that successiō of bishops is no note for vsus in these later times wherby to try the church. Let it I pray you be lawful to me to moue one questiō vntounto you, & that is, why (seking confirmatiō & testimony for religiō, you let passe al those who were earewitnesses of ye trueth, & true religion, & had cōmission frō the Lord himself, & confirmation of their fidelitie herein, vnderunder his own hād and seale? HaueHave you not read thus in the 2. to ye Heb. The Gospel begā to be preached first by the Lord himself, Heb. 2.& afterward it was cōfirmed vntounto vsus by those that heard him, god bearing witnesse vntounto thē, by signes & wonders, & diuerse gifts of the holy Ghost? Your meaning cannot be good in omitting men so sufficiently authorized, & flying vntounto others as the doctors & bishops of the primitiue churche: who when we are come thither, do post vsus ouer againe to these as the lawful & only sufficiēt witnesses in these doubts of religiō. The commō saying may be welverified of you, yt you would teach vsus the next way about: for you send vsus frō the sciptures to the fathers, & when we are come to them, they sende vsus backe againe to the scriptures. You hauehave heard already in the 3. note of the church, that they examined their succession of bishops by the scriptures, taking it therefore to be good, because their bishops warrāted their expositiōs by scriptures, & you know what Augustine saith in this matter. Auferantur de medio quae aduersus nos inuicem non ex diuinis canonicis libris, August. de vnit. ecclesi contra Petilian. ca. 3.sed aliunde recitamus, quia nolo humanis documentis, sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari. Awaye with those authories that either of vsus alledgeth against other, because I woulde hauehave the holy Churche to bee prooued, not by the doctrines of men,August. aduersus Maximi. lib. 4. but by the woord of God. Augustine in like maner sendeth vsus from councels vntounto the scriptures. But now saith Augustine to Maximine an Arian, neither may I alleage the councel of Nice, nor you the councell of Arimine to others preiudice: neither stand I bounde to the authoritie of this, nor you to the authoritie of that, but by the authority of the scriptures, which are witnesses proper to neither of vsus, but stand indifferent to vsus both: Let matter be cōpared with matter, cause with cause, & reason with reason. If the fathers send vsus from their own writinges, to the scriptures: from succession, to the scriptures, & from councelles, to the scriptures: why doe you omit the scriptures, and send vsus to succession, to fathers, & to councelles? If the truth be bound to the fathers & councels, and the true sense onelyonly there to bee found, what meane they themselues, to send vsus from thence vntounto the scriptures? for that were to speake (as you doe afterwarde) to feede vsus with the shell, and to keepe from vsus the kernell: that is the sense and vnderstanding of the worde, which you affirme to be in their onelyonly custodie. What neede we nowe to spende either Paper or paines about the names of those bookes, that all the fathers hauehave written in the Primitiue Church? You hauehave had a large offer by that man of famous memorie Bishop Iewell, to take your choise among all the learned fathers, and doctours in the Church, sixe hundreth yeares after Christ, for the vpholding of the grounds & principal points of your religion: what you hauehave said for it the Lorde knoweth, and diuerse that were before bewitched with it, begun now, (after that they see how little it is that can be saide in that behalfe) vtterlie to defie it.
You require to knowe if our doctrine were the same which they in the primitiue Church professed: who they were that did at that time note your going out and departure from the trueth, and did inuey and write agaynst it. This question is altogether vnnecessarie, for when an offfender is taken with the manner, it is a needlesse labour, to stande vppon the examination of them, who were at the deed doing. Wee hauehave taken you with the manner, that is to say, with doctrine diuerse from the Apostles: and therefore neither lawe nor conscience can force vsus, to examine them, who were at the deede doing, and witnesses of your first departing. You heard Tertullian before, speaking of the Churches that are farre from the Apostles time, say thus: Ipsa haereticorum doctrina, cum Apostolis comparata, ex diuersitate & contrarietate sua, pronunciabit ne{que} Apostoli alicuius Autoris esse, ne{que} Apostolici. The doctrine it selfe being compared with Apostles, will by the varietie and contrarietie that is in it pronounce, that neyther Apostle, nor yet anie Apostolicall man, was the authour of it. This speaketh Tertullianus of those who liued long after the Apostles tymes, so that his iudgement is plaine: you can not nowe hauehave this benefite of your Cleargie, the matter by the Apostle his testimonie, falling cut so heynous and so apparunt agaynst you. For your Masse where one eateth and drinketh all alone, can not stande with that Doctrine, which the Apostle hath deliuered: Take you, and eate you. 1. Corinthians. 11. 1. Cor. 11.That doctrine which extolleth the meriting of man, painting his Image smyling and laughing at his owne desertes: can not agree with that Image which the Apostle hath left of the regenerate man, wherein hee is painted weeping for his wante,Rom. 7. and in lamentable speache crying out: Miserable man that I am, who shall deliuer mee from this bodie of sinne? That Doctrine which sendeth vsus to the succession of Bishops and Priestes, for the Key that openeth and letteth into the truth: can not agree with that, which commendeth men for examining by the scriptures,Actes. 17.11. the doctrine of the Apostles themselues: men as likely to teach & hold the trueth, as any Bishops or Priestes since, who, or wheresoeuer. That doctrine which ioyneth Saintes and Angels with the Lorde, in that honour of calling vppon them for helpe: can not agree with it which sayth,Matth. 4. Thou shalt worship the Lorde thy God, and him onelyonly shalt thou serue. To conclude, that doctrine which giueth souereigne authoritie vntounto the Pope, aboue all Princes & Bishops whersoeuer: can not agree wt that charge which Christ gaue vntounto his dicsciples,Matth. 20.25. saying: Ye know that the Lords of the Gentiles hauehave domination ouer them, and they that are great exercise authoritie ouer them, but it shall not be so among you.
It is great iniurie offred vntounto the Apostles, the lawfull witnesses of the trueth, authorized therevnto by the Lord himselfe, to imagine or giuegive out of them, that they spoke so slenderly, either else so darkly and so doubtfully of the trueth: as that heresie and errour cannot sufficiently by any light which they hauehave giuen, be discerned from it: or that they left testimonie behind them, sufficient to establish the trueth, but not to confute falsehoode: when as the Apostle sayth,2. Tim. 3. that the scripture giuen by inspiration of God, is profitable to teach, and also to improue, and to correct, that the man of God may be absolute. Examine it well I pray you with your selfe, what should be the cause, that you should shunne as rockes, the witnesses which the Lorde hath appointed to speake as well against falshoode, as for the trueth: being neither content with that witnes which they hauehave borne vntounto the truth, neither willing to stand vntounto that, which they hauehave deliuered against falsehoode and errour. The way which you prescribe, as it is not necessarie: no more can it be anie safe kind of dealing. For who hauehave kept the register of those depositions, which men hauehave deposed against you? HaueHave not you your selues, against whom they were vttered, had the custodie of them? What fidelitie then can wee imagine nowe likely to be remaining vntounto them, setting aside the power of the Lord, who can and often doeth reserue, and bring light out of the middest of darkenesse it selfe? Moreouer, what and if they who did espie it, had no knowledge by writing, to discrie it? When the Pharisees and Scribes at Christ his comming had corrupt true Religion, what bookes did you read were written against them, and howe able was Ioseph, Simeon, Marie, & Anna, to performe that worke? Falshood, is falshoode, albeit no man write against it, and the trueth can not but be the trueth, whosoeuer shall write against it. And therefore your argument for the trueth, grounding vponupon the not writing against it, can carie litle credit with it, though it were graunted, that no man hath beene knowne to write against it. We are not destitute of witnesses, who at the beginning hauehave espied the entring of your religion, and the departing from the true faith, albeit we stand vntounto the testimonie of the Apostles, as the most sufficient and sound authoritie. The sixt Coūcell of Carthage,Concil. Aphric. cap. 92. which was about the yeare of our Lord. 430. where August. and 216. Bishops were assembled, after that they had seene the true and autenticall copies of the Councel of Nice falsified by Zozimus, Bonifacius, and Celestinus three Bishops of Rome, one succeeding another in order, for the supremacie of that sea: concluded with vniuersal consent, that no authoritie was to bee graunted vntounto the Pope, ouer Affrica, or anie other foreine Churches: and this vniuersall authoritie, was the mother of that vniuersall corruption, which folowed after in religion. Gregorie, who was Bishop of Rome, 600. yeares after Christ, writing of the Bishop of Cōstantinople, who would bee called vniuersall Bishop, saith thus: In hac eius superbia, Lib. 4. epist. 34.quid aliud nisi propinqua iā esse Antichristi tēpora designatur, qui illū videlicet imitatur, qui spretis in sociali gaudio Angelorum legionibus, ad culmen conatus est singularitatis erumpere, dicens supra astra coeli exaltabo soliū meum? In this his pride (meaning the Bishop of Constantinople, who claimed supremacy) what other thing is declared, but that the time of Antichrist is at hand, which foloweth him, who dispising the equal & felowlike ioy of the angels went about to aspire vntounto the toppe of singularity, saying: I wil exalt my seat aboue the starres. You see if we had not taken you with the māner, yet had there bene sufficient helpe from witnesses, who were at the deade doing, to hauehave conuict you. You would knowe what became of that Church a thousand yeares next after the primitiue Church, and where shee kept all that time. It was sixe hundreth yeares after Christ, before the Pope had his vniuersal title, and supreme authoritie ouer all Churches: and sometime you cannot denie, but that hee must of necessitie hauehave, to take away the word of God, from the common & knowne tongue of the people, that his traditions might hauehave entrance without anie contradiction, and men bee brought to occupie themselues in them, as in the chiefe and principall workes of Christianitie. It was 800. yeares after Christ before the knowledge of the latin tongue, which was their mother tongue, did altogether decay amōg the common people, in Italie, Fraunce, Spaine, and Britaine: As for the Greeke Church, shee neuer receiued the Latine tongue, neither yet the Churches in Asia, and Ethiopia, all which time the Pope could not bring in the depth of his deceiueable and damnable doctrine, the candle of God his word, shining out in their knowne tongue vntounto all people, and therefore he was not as yet come vntounto the height of his iniquitie. And in the yeare of our Lorde 1240. manie preachers in high Germanie, did freely preache against the Pope, and his doctrine, affirming the Pope to be an heretike, his doctrine damnable, and that if they had not come, the Lord woulde hauehave raised some out of the stones, who shoulde hauehave preached the trueth vntounto his Church: and this was done publiquely the Belles ringing out vntounto the Sermons. Crantzius, In Metro. Cra… lib. 8. cap. 18.a man who greatly fauoured the Pope, and vehemently inueyed against those preachers, sayth thus of them: Quidā pulsatis campanis, & conuocatis baronibus terrarū, in Vallis Sueuiae, sic feruntur praedicasse in publica statione: quòd Papa esset haereticus, omnes episcopi & praelati simoniaci, & haeretici: Item quòd fratres praedicatores & minores peruerterent ecclesiā falsis praedicationibus, & {quod} omnes illi fratres prauam vitā ducerent, & iniustā: praedicauerunt (inquiunt) ad hoc tēpus praedicatores nostri, & sepelierunt veritatē, & promulgarunt falsitatē: nos veritatem praedicamus & sepelimus falsitatē, indulgentiā quā damus vobis, non damus fictam, vel cōpositam ab Apostolico, vel episcopis sed à solo deo. This I speake because in your accounts how long time the Church was obscured, you multiplie much more then euer you can bee able to proue. But let it be graunted, that there was no truth of doctrine taught by them that had the gouernment, & were the guides of the people, the Bishops and Prelates, by the space of one thousande yeares: yet might there be a Church, wherunto a man might resort, & tel her of his brother who had offēded him. For at the cōming of Christ, the Scribes & Pharisies had the gouernment, who were blind guides, and painted sepulchers, yet was there a Church & number of chosen people of God, who liued in those times of darknes, & vnderunder gouernmēt: as Ioseph, Mary, Simeō & Anna, &c. being ye true & faithful seruants of god. And our sauiour Christ, speaking of the shepheardes and guides of that time that went before him saith,Iohn. 10.8. that they were theeues & murtherers: but the sheepe heard them not: meaning that those who were his sheepe, were kept in that blind & wicked gouernment, by his wonderful prouidence frō the infection of their doctrine. You heard also before, that in Ieroboams time, and afterwards, whē the priests were blind guides, & religion was most corrupt, euen then the lord had thousands: that neuer bowed their knees to Baal. There had he his Church, & therefore all things that are of necessitie required (so as without thē it can be no longer any Church) were there to be heard. There was such light of life & cōuersation, as did clearly shine & giuegive light to chose that were in the house, & church of God: albeit Iesabel and her court could see no such matter, no more then you can perceiue any good example among those, who hauehave giuen lands and possessions, goods & liues, for the honor of God, in the cause & quarell of his trueth. Ther might any of ye church being offēded with his brother, hauehave admonished him by himselfe, & afterward hauehave takē one or two with him, and if those could not preuaile, he might hauehave told it to those number that kept togither, and were knowne among themselues to ioyne togither, in the true worship of God.Heiron. in Mat. cap. 18. And this is that which is required in this place of Matthew, as Ierome declareth. Which all may bee performed, notwithstanding the ordinarie gouernment of the Church, be vnderunder the enimies of the Church: and was practised in the late dayes of Queene Marie here in Englād: true doctrine preached, discipline exercised, and yet the gouernment in your handes, that were vtter enimies vntounto it. If you say further, that the Church after Christ, is not to bee compared with the Church before Christ, because it hath more promises, and therefore take exception against my examples in times before christ: when the Church was kept vnderunder blinde guides: I answere, that for the visible apparance & gouernment of it, in that place where it was: the Church since Christ had neuer such promises, as the Church before had: & I will be readie at all times to proue it against you. Now if you will vrge necessarily a visible and ordinarie authoritie & gouernment of Bishops and ministers of the word of God, who shall hauehave and carie the face and countenance of the Church, where and in what place soeuer there is a Church: then how dare you say, that there is a Church and number of men of your religion here in England, seeing the authoritie and gouernment is out of your hands? When anie of you shall offend in adulterie or otherwise, as some of you hauehave done, who among you do present the matter? To what court do you go? Where sitteth your Officiall or Commissarie? Where are your Sacraments administred, and your Masses celebrated? wee knowe not the place who do liue with you, and hauehave the gouernment in our handes, yet is it not vnlikely but that you hauehave such meetings, & neuer one of you, but knoweth where to hauehave your Sacraments administred, and your discipline vsed. And if this may be done by you, and yet we hauehave the ordinarie gouernment of the church in our hands: so in like maner might there be in former times, the exercises of true religion practised in sundrie places, and yet you notwithstanding, hauehave the ordinary iurisdiction and gouernment, and carie all the outwarde countenance of the Church with you in those times. If you say (as you doe in deede) how can then his promise be performed, who sayth that he will be with thē vntounto the end of the world? I answere, wel inough: for can not the lord be with his Church, vnlesse he keepe them still in the possession of their Bishopriks & benefices, so that they carie the coūtenance and gouernement with them. The promise to be with them, inferreth not necessarily the maner howe he will be with them, and much lesse doeth it inferre this certaine maner, that they shall alwayes bee sure to hauehave the chiefe gouernment, and keepe the keyes in their hande. To answere you then in fewe woordes, where the Church was while you had the gouernment (setting aside the Greeke Churches, and others, who neuer from Christ vntounto this day acknowledged the Pope) I aunswere, it was in Italie, Fraunce, Spaine, and Englande, &c. because there shall be a Temple of God, where Antichrist shall sitte, and they shall bee holie places, where the abomination of desolation shall stande: for Antichrist shal not make an vtter spoile and hauocke of the Church of Christ.
You require why you shoulde beleeue the iudgement of the learned in these daies vppon the Scriptures, rather then the iudgement of the holy Fathers, long before vsus in time, and also in learning, vertue, and perfection of life: especially being assembled in generall Councels: I aunswere, if you meane by holie Fathers those who liued 500. yeares after Christ, you cannot proue that in the principall pointes of Religion, they taught or had anie other iudgement of Scriptures, then we hauehave, neither can you proue, that their fruites of obedience, differed from the fruites of sundrie in these times, otherwise then that in one and the same gifte, one maye hauehave a greater measure and portion thereof, then another. But admit they were contrarie vntounto vsus in the exposition of Scriptures, and farre beyond vsus in learning and perfection (as you cal it of life: yet may neither their learning nor their life, warrant vsus that their expositions and iudgements vponupon the scriptures, are without any further triall to be admitted and allowed. For proufe wherof I had rather you should heare August. his words, then mine owne. Thus speaketh he of this matter.August. epist. 18. Alios ita lego, vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrina{que} praepolleant, non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt: sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicos, vel probabiliratione, quod à vero nō abhorreat persuadere potuerint. Augustine will hauehave no man carie matters of Religion away, vnderunder learning or holinesse of life, further then he can make good his iudgement by the canonicall scriptures. And you hauehave heard before, that fathers hauehave sent vsus from their owne priuate iudgement: and from their councels and common iudgements in publike assemblies: vntounto the scriptures, as vntounto a more sure and certaine rule.
Your next demaund is the same in effect wt these, & therfore one answere may suffice both. For if those holy fathers assēbled in a councel, hauehave established any thing against the trueth, as some hauehave done, & bene controlled of those councels that followed, thē should he that followed them, hauehave leaned more to the doctrine of men, then an other man, who following his owne iudgement, had ioyned with the scriptures, and yet disagreed from all of them.
You demaund a reason why you should beleeue M. Caluine and those that are of his iudgement, rather then M. Luther and those who imbrace his iudgement: the one beeing as well learned as the other: clayming the spirit of God, aswel as the other: as able to confere places of Scripture together, and to iudge thereof, as the other: I aunswere, that touching the matter of controuersie betwene them, you should rather beleeue him then the other, who iustifieth his opinion by the Scriptures, better then the other: As for their habilitie we are to measure it by the effect, and therefore to iudge and affirme that he who doeth more aptly and truely conferre places of Scripture togither, indeede is more able thervnto. If you would gather heere vponupon, that conferring of places together in Scripture, is not the right way to come to true knowledge, and so consequently to agreement in the trueth, when men are at variance, because these two vsing this conference of scriptures hauehave not for all that agreed aboute the meaning of some scriptures: then I answere, that the leaning vntounto the iudgements of the doctors and the fathers, is not the best way in controuersies to fall vntounto agreement, and to find out the trueth: because Ierome & Augustine, contending about a place of scripture in the Epistle to the Galathians, August. Epist. 19can not agree whether Paul did truely & iustly reproue Peter, or that he did but dissemble a reprehending of him. Ierom alleaged for his exposition, the iudgement of seuen writers, to wit, Ladodicenus, Alexander, Origen, Didimus, Eusebius, Theodorus, and Ioannes Bishop of Constantinople. Augustine alledged for the warrant of his exposition, onelyonly Ambrose and Cyprian.
Nowe if because Maister Luther and Maister Caluine can not agree vppon the true meaning of one place of Scripture, by conferring of Scriptures, you will therefore reiect the Scriptures, as no sufficient meanes to come to the knowledge of the trueth, or to decide controuersies in religion by them by the same reason a man may reiect the authoritie of the fathers, because Ierome & Augustine proceeding by their iudgementes to finde out the trueth, hauehave not for all that fallen vntounto an agreement, but remained stil deuided in opinion touching the true meaning of that place. And by the same reason likewise, a man may reiect councels, as not sufficient to dicide controuersies in Religion, & to bring men to knowledge of the trueth, because you, Thomists contending with your Scotistes, Lo. Viues in Aug. de Ciui. Dei. Cap. 26.whether ye Virgin Mary were conceiued in sin or no, coulde not be brought to agreement by the authoritie of the councell of Basil, alleged by the Scotists for the defēce of their opinion, and making so plaine for them, as possiblie could be expressed.
To conclude this matter, if you woulde hauehave a reason why Maister Luther and Maister Caluine by conferring of Scriptures doe not yet for all that agree vppon the Exposition of some Scripture, this may be rendred: the Lorde wil not be bound to reueale all trueth, vntounto all of his seruaunts: but will hauehave great giftes and graces, not to bee without some want either in knowledge, or otherwise: that wee should not thinke of men, aboue that which is meete, but that he who will glory may glory in the Lord.
You demaund whether it bee meete for all men to iudge vponupon the Scriptures: I answeare, it is meete for all the children of God, to hauehave knowledge and iudgement in the word of God, and by it to discerne betweene light and darkenesse, good and euil: for it is written in the Gospel after Saint Iohn, Iohn. 20.4.that the sheepe and flock of Christe will followe the true Sheepehearde, because they knowe his voice, but will not followe a straunger, because they knowe not the voice of a straunger. If they had no discretion nor iudgement in the worde, why should they not as readily followe the voice of a straunger and acknowledge it, as the voice of the true shepheard. And if they be not meet to iudge vponupon the Scriptures, then are they as meete to followe the voice of a straunger, as the voice of the true sheepeheard: yet the scripture sayth, that they will not followe the voyce of a straunger, because they knowe it not. One thing that moueth you to think that all men are not meete to iudge of the scriptures, is, because S. Peter saith, yt his brother Paule writeth many things hard to be vnderstod, which the vnlearned & vnstable do peruert, as they do the other scriptures to their own destruction. This place telleth vsus, that the vngodly are not meet to iudge of the scriptures. For he speaketh of such vnlearned, as are with al vnstable and vngodly, who receiue no more harme by those hard matters, that are handled in the scriptures, then by the most plaine & easiest pointes of all. For hee saith that they doe peruert the reste of the scriptures, to their owne destruction as wel as those. So that the daunger is in the man, and not in the scripture: vnlesse peraduenture you think, that through out all the scripture there is great difficultie & hardenesse for any man to conceiue, a right iudgement thereof. Which opinion the whole Scriptures doe directly stand against, for thus do we reade in the Prouerbs: prou. 8.All the wordes of my mouth are righteous, there is no frowardnes in thē, they are all plain to him that will vnderstand, & straight to them that would finde knowledge. And likewise in the 2. Prou. 2.Chap. of the same boke it is written thus: If thou callest after knowledge, & criest for vnderstanding, if thou seekest her as siluer, & searchest for her, as for treasures, thē shalt thou vnderstād the feare of the Lord, & finde the knowledge of God. And Paule affirmeth such cleerenes to be in the gospel,2. Cor. 4. that he is not affcaid to say, if it be yet hid from them, the god of this world hath blinded their minds and closed vp their eyes: as if otherwise it were impossible for so great & cleere light as that is, not to shew it self manifest & euident vntounto them. To return againe vntounto the place, you say yt Paul writeth many things hard to be vnderstode, which is not so, for he speaketh but of some things. The speach of peruerting doth clere the matter it self frō all suspiciō, & doth charge peruerter only. The vnlearned also chalēged not simply in ye respect, but wt addition of instability & vngodlines ioyned therunto, Which the vnlearned (saith the Apostle) & vnstable do peruert: doth not foretel vsus of danger to any other vnlerned, thē those who as they are vnlearned, so likewise are they vnstable & vngodly withal. Last of all the admonition that followeth perswading not to hauehave no dealing wt the scriptures, as matters that were so hard, as that they could not be vnderstode: but to take heede that they be not pluckt away by the error of the wicked & fal from their own stedfastnesse: declareth that the whole danger is in the persons, & not in the scriptures. And no maruel if the wicked peruertthe scriptures frō their true meaning: for as no mā knoweth the things of a man, saue the spirit of man, wc is within him,1. Cor. 2.12. euen so the things of God knoweth no man, but the spirit of God, which the vngodly are destitute off. But those yt are the childrē of God, as Paul witnesseth hauehave receiued spirit of God, wherby they knowe the things that are giuen thē of God. For the spirit searcheth all things, yea euen the deep things of God. An other thing yt maketh you think, that al mē are not meete to iudge of ye scriptures, is as you say, for that when certain would necessarily hauehave vrged circūcision, & Moses law vponupon ye Gentiles, the Apostles & elders meete togither to consider of this matter, so that you gather heerevpon, it belongeth onelyonly vntounto the Church assembled together in a councell, to iudge of matters of faith and religion, and the rest alwaies bound without any question of the matter, to obey. It is a very slender argument to say, the church assembled together doth giuegive iudgement of matters of faith & religion that be in controuersie: & therefore the true members of that Church, are not meete to discerne of the scriptures, neither can truely discerne of those controuersies. You might as well say, that the man who hath seene with his eyes a theefe stealing, and hath taken him with the manner, cannot for all that truely discerne, whether it be theft and he a Theefe or no: because the Country meeteth afterwarde at the Assises, to try the matter. Paule and Barnabas knewe the trueth of the matter and disputed against them, that woulde necessarylie vrge Moses lawe: before the Apostles and Elders did meete about it. They were of the same iudgement before, that they were after, as it appeareth in the same chapter, albeit they thought men would bee better satisfied, if the authoritie & sentence of the Churche were had therein, and therfore went they not as doubting of the trueth in them selues, but as perswading others of that whiche they knowe was trueth. I do maruayle that you dare saye that those men, who vrged Moses law, & saide to the Gentiles, Except ye be circūcised after the maner of Moses, yee cannot bee saued: had more Scriptures to alleage for them, then the Apostles and Elders had, because the new law was then vnwritten? What one place of Scripture can you bring, not only that the Gentiles, but that the Iewes them selues, to whom the law was geuen, coulde not hauehave beene saued: yf they had immediatly after Christe his ascention, lefte of Circumcision and the Ceremoniall lawe? The necessitie of the Ceremoniall lawe did not lye vppon the Iewes after Christe, the vsage of it for a time, was but for the weakenesse of some, & that ceremonies appointed of the Lorde, myght as (Augustine sayth) not without honour bee had vntounto the graue. You say also with like vntrueth of speach, that they as iudges without Scriptures, ordered this matter: when as it appeareth plainely in that same Chapter, that Saint Iames prooueth the callyng of the Gentiles, out of the Prophet Amos, and therevpon concludeth, that seeing they were turned vntounto God without Moses law, they not obseruyng it, they were not nowe necessarily to be troubled with it. Makyng the Lorde his dealyng in shewyng mercy vppon them, and turning them vntounto him, when as yet they were without it: as a sufficient reason to induce them, that they were not to bee troubled with it, and much lesse vnderunder payne of damnation too bee bounde to the obseruation thereof.
You require who were iudges of matters of faith and religion, the Scriptures, or men, from Adam to Moses, and so 800 yeeres after Christe his ascention. I doe aunsweare that men did iudge of matters of faith and religion, but not otherwyse then by the Scriptures: and as they were directed from them, as wee reade in the 17 of Deuteronomy: And thou shalt come vntounto the Priestes of the Leuites & vntounto the iudge that shal be in those daies, and aske, and they shal shew thee the sentence of iudgement, and thou shalt doe according to the thing that they of that place shal shew thee, according too the law which they shal teach thee. So that you may see they hauehave no absolute authoriritie, to enioyne any thing vntounto the people which is not according to the lawe: in as muche as it is saide, according to the lawe which they shall teache thee, thou shalt do. Whiche thing yet is better explaned in Deuteronmy cap. 24. Take heede of the plague of leprosie, that you obserue diligently, and doe according too all that the Priestes of the Leuites shall teache thee, take heede ye doe as I commaund them. The Priestes therefore may lay no more vppon the people then they had in commaundement from the Lorde. You maye well perceiue then that before Christ, men did iudge according too the Scripture, and as they were directed by it. You are greatly deceiued therfore imagining the scripture to be but a dead worde vntil a man come & iudge of it: for it hath a certaine truth in it, from the which if any man shoulde swarue in iudgement, yet should it remaine true al ye notwithstāding: And if any should ioine in iudgement with the true meaning of it, yet should he adde nothing to the trueth thereof, which is the life of the worde. For the worde is the lyuing voyce, and that which giueth life and authoritie vntounto the other, euen as it falleth out in ciuil matters, that the iudges in all courtes are led by the lawe, what to thinke and pronounce of the matter that is brought before them: and if they shal geue sentence contrary to law, it shal not excuse them that they were iudges: but contrariwise, beeyng charged that they hauehave dealt corruptly in any sentence, this shal cleare them, yf they can truely say that they hauehave doone nothyng but according to law, & that which the law will beare them in. You say that out of the Church, eueryevery man is a lyar: in the Church, the spirite of god and not man iudgeth, who was promised to lead her into al trueth. The Apostle speaking to the church, saith that eueryevery man is a liar, & therefore no man is to be beleued for this cause only, because he is of the church, for the true Church is knowen to be the true Church, because she speaketh not of her selfe but hath the woorde to testify of her. You remember what Chrysostome hath saide before: Ex quo non legit haec scripta, sed a seipso loquitur, Chrisost. de sancto et adorando spiritu.manifestum est, quód non habet spiritum sanctum.
To your demaunde requiring the name of our Church, because al sectes say they be of the Church of Christ: I do answere, that their saying so without any further proofe, may not be preiudicial to vsus herein who say no more then we are wel able to prooue.
To your demaunde requiring what generall councels our Churche hath holden: I answere,August. in Iohhn. tract. 13. that I would not refuse to satisfie your request herein, if eyther the church might not be a true Churche, and yet hold no general councels: or a false church were cleared it should fall out by good proofe, that she had holden any generall councels.
To your demaund what miracles hauehave ben wrought by her: I answer with Augustine, Contra mirabiliarios cautū me fecit Deus meus, dicendo in nouissimis diebus exurgent Pseudoprophetae, facientes signa & portenta, ut inducant in errorem, si fieri possit, etiā electos. My God (saith Augustine) hath armed me against those miracle makers: when he saith that in the latter dayes, false Prophetes shall arise, doing signes & wonders, to deceiue if it were possible euen the very elect.
To your demaunde of what Churche this Churche of ours receiued the Scriptures, and what iust cause she had to depart from that Church, of whom she receiued the said Scriptures, and why he should not receiue as wel at her handes the vnderstanding of the said Scriptures, as the verie Scriptures themselues, & what more certainely she hath of the truth of the one, then of the other: I do answere, that she receiued the scriptures of your Churche, & the same cause to depart frō you, that Mary; Elizabeth, Simeon, Ioseph, & Anna, with others had to depart from the Scribes and Pharisees, of whō they receiued the scriptures, & yet leauing them imbraced Christ & his doctrine. And she had also the same cause that they had, why she shoulde not receiue the vnderstanding of the Scriptures from them, of whom she receiued the scriptures thēselues. For they refused the expositions and glosses of the scribes & Pharisies, albeit they receiued the Scriptures from them. She had likewise greater certainty (euē as they had,) why she should be persuaded that you had corrupt the sence & meaning, rather then the worde and text it selfe, for they doubted not of the worde and text, that they receiued from the Pharisees and yet for all that reiected their expositions, as contrarie to the trueth of that text, which they had deliuered vntounto them.
To your last demaūd requiring to know whether there was euer frō the beginning an external Priesthood, & whether that externall Priesthood had not alwayes an external sacrifice: I answer no, referring you for profe hereof vntounto the x.Heb. 10. chap. of the Hebrues, wher it is thus written. Sacrifice & offering, burnt offerings, and sinne offeringes thou wouldest not hauehave: then saide he, loe I came to doe thy will O God; he taketh away the first, that hee may establish the seconde. By the which will we are sanctified, euen by the offering of the bodie of Iesus Christ once made. For with one offering hath he consecrated for euer, them that are sanctified. Nowe where remission of these thinges is, there is no more offering for sinne, These be the wordes of the Apostle, Whereby you may playnely discerne, that the externall Sacrifice and offering from sinne, ceassed in our Sauiour Christe, as in him, who by that one oblation made once for all, did fully discharge the sinnes of his seruauntes.
❧ Imprinted in London at the three Cranes in the Vinetree by Thomas Dawson for Richard Sergier.
End of the text · John Knewstubs, Answer Unto Assertion that Church of Rome is the True Church (1579)