The Unreasonableness of the Separation Made Apparent 2, Part 4
Maister Francis Iohnsons Demands.
Fr. Iohnson.
Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last will and testament given unto, and set in his Church, sufficient ordinary officers, with their calling, worke, & maintainance, for the administration of his holy things, and for the sufficient ordinar…e instruction, guidance and service of his Church, to the end of the world.
VV. Bradshaw
1. I answere directly (understanding by officers, spirituall officers) that he hath: and that it is a sin herein to breake his will and testament, e…ther by depriving the Church of any of those officers; or by bringing into it any other kinde, with any other kinde of calling or worke, then he hath appointed in the same.
2. That notwithstanding this, the civill Magistrate hath power to set over the Churches of Christ in his dominions commissioners and overseers, which are not specially appointed by Christ in his testament, civilly to guide and governe the Churches, and to maintaine those priviledges, libertys, offices and orders, that Christ hath endowed them withall, against all the Enemys both without and within the same.
3. Concerning the maintainance of the ministers, Christ hath set down no more in his testament, then this in effect; that the Labourer is worthy of his hire; And that for their ministration of spirituall things, the Churches that enjoy their Labours, ought to minister to them of theire temporalls. But after what speciall manner they shall be maintained; he hath (for ought appeareth yet to the contrary) either left it to the discretion of the Churches, if they have the free disposition of their temporall goods in their own hand; or of the Christian Magistrate; who in such cases may see what is fitter then the Churches themselves.
Fr. Iohnson.
Whether the offices of Pastors, Teachers, Elders, Deacons and Helpers be those offices appointed by Christ in his testament before said? Or whether the present Ecclesiasticall offices of Arch-bishops, Lord-bishops, Suffraganes, deane…, prebendarys, canons, petty canons, priests, deacons, Arch-deacons, doctours of divinity, chaplins, or hou…e-priests, commissarys, officials, proctors, apparitors parsons, vicars, curates, vagrant or mercenary preachers, church-wardens, Sidemen, Clarks, sextons, & the rest now had in the cathedrall & parishonall assemblys, be those officers appointed by Christ in his Testament, as is aforesaid, or no?
VV. Bradshaw
1. I grant that the offices in the first place mentioned are those verie offices, wich Christ hath appointed and there is no Church of Christ, but hath use & need of them: and that such are some way defective, that want anie one of them.
2. That yet notwithstanding, they may be true Churches, that want some of them, yea & the chifest of them; as those assemblys of your owne profession in England have for many yeares been without either all, or the cheifest of them: and yet they judge themselves true Churches; yea though they have not so much as the Sacraments administred among them.
3. Where the civil magistrate doth his duty as he ought, & where the Churches have the benefit of his help, for the suppressing of sin, & the relieving of the poore, & those that are in any distres (which the Apostolical Churches wanted) there the want of some of these offices may be the better borne with all & the Church les defective that doth want them, especially the two latter.
4. I grant that none of those offices here mentioned in the latter part (excepting that of Deacons) are in name those offices which Christ hath appointed: some of them neither in name, nor in deed: some in deed though not in name: some have the name of that which indeed they are not: some, though they be set over the Churches; yet are not indeed any proper offices of the Church, some offices here named neither indeed nor name, as they are such, are Ecclesiasticall offices, but onelyonly Schoole titles & dignitys given to men Eminent in Learning, for encouragement to others to study good letters, especially divinity.
5. All the offices appointed by Christ to be in his Church, to the end of the world, in effect & substance may be found contained under some of these; though some what disguised with strange names, borrowed from the Church of Rome. And the principall & most necessary are under some of these. For many of these which you despitefully call me cenary preachers, house-priests, yea parsons, vicars, curates, are in very deed & truth, in office and practise (whatsoever they are in name) the very pastors & teachers, that Christ hath ordained, ministring in his Churches (according to theire places & callings, & those gifts which Christ hath bestowed upon them) all the ordinary means, of Salvation. As for these variety of names, most of them arise from that variety of maintainance that is in our Churches, and not of their spirituall offices. So that in this manner to dispute against our Churches; becau…e the ministers thereof have such & such names, is, as though one should dispute against the Church of the Iews in Christ time, & have denied communion with it, asking whether priests, Levites, & prophets, were not those officers which God hath appointed, to governe the Church of the Iews with all; or whether Scribes, Pharisees, Saduces, Captains of the temple, Rulers of the Synagogues, Doctors of the Law, Centurions, Souldiers, the high priests Servants, &c. were those officers: Or as if one disputing against your owne Churches, or those which have, (though …ot so fully, as you would have them) entertained the same discipline with you, should to warrant theire Separation from you, & their condemnation of you as false Churches, moove the very same question, in nature, unto you asking …ou whether pastors, teachers, Elders, Deacons, & helpers, be not those offices which Christ hath appointed in his Testament; or whether Schismaticks, refracta…ys, Lay-aldermen, parish bishops, Consistorians, parish popes, proctors of Spi…le hauses, dawbers, thackers taylers, tinkers, &c. be those officers? for thus it hath pleased some to put these odious names upon those, which beare & exercise the offices of pastors, teachers, Elders, &c.
Fr. Iohnson.
Whether the callings & entrance into the Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid, their administration & maintainance now had & retained in England, be the manner of calling, administration and maintenance, which Christ hath appointed for the offices of the Church above named, or no.
VV. Bradshaw
Not to stand (for the avoyding of multiplicity of unnecessarie questions) upon defence of the calling, entrance, administration, and maintenance of all; I answere directly and plainly; That the calling, entrance, administration, and maintenance of many (at the least) that are called into Ecclesiasticall offices, is in very effect & substance, the same that Christ hath appointed. They are men instructed in the knowledge of good letters, especially in divinity: They have a gift in some good measure, to divide the word of God, according to the necessitys of their people, over whome they are set. They have a desire to doe Christ and his Church service in his ministery, and a purpose to give themselves over unto that worke. They have in some good measure (for none hath them in perfection) all those graces & gifts, that Paul to Timothy requires to be in Bishops and Elders. They are so judged and esteemed to be of other ministers, and well grounded Christians, and of those people which submit unto their ministery; who accepting of them and theire ministery as sent of God, desiring and yeelding themselves to live under them, as is fitting for Christians; and they resolving to guide and governe them, as becometh spirituall leades & guids.
Such calling and entrance as this, have many of our Church officers: more than this in substance and effect is not appointed by Christ. Those defects and errors, which over and besides, many times they yeeld unto in their calling, entrance and administration, are not of that nature and quality, that they make a nullity thereof, or make it a false, and Antichristian calling, entrance, or administration. The maintainance they live by, as it is no where in generall or speciall forbidden; in the yeelding whereof unto the ministers, they fulfill the testament of Christ, in giving of their temporall things, for spirituall, in giving hire to the Labourers, &c. and doe not therein breake any parts else thereof; he having no where forbidden any such manner of maintainance, but left it indifferent, to give money, or fruits, in fruits to give the twentith, the twelfth, the tenth, the eighth of the encrease, according either to theire estate, or the necessity of the ministers; wherein the Magistrate hath autority to rule & define, who hath in his hand the power of mens temporall estates; or the Church, if the magistrate leave unto them the free use of their own temporalitys.
Neither is the tenth required to be given by the Magistrate, or yeelded to be given by the Church to the maintainance of ministers, any more ceremoniall or judiciall in regard of the number, then in regard of the matter.
Neither did there any mystery lie so much in the quantitie of the thing given, as in the very gift and offering it selfe. So that by the same reason, that you make it unlawfull for ministers to be maintained by Tithes, you make it unlawfull for them to hauehave any kinde of maintainance from the Church; there having bin a ceremony in the very matter it selfe as much as in the quantity or number. For not onelyonly their giving the tithe of their encrease, but also the very giving of theire encrease it selfe, out of that consideration, was ceremoniall.
Fr. Iohnson.
Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world, and the false worship and ways thereof, by the word of God; and joyned together in fellowship of the Gospell by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ.
VV. Bradshaw
I answere, 1. That every true visible Church of Christ, is such a people.
2. That yet, notwithstanding they be such, they may in theire infirmity & ignorance, walke in some of the ways, and practise some parts of the fal…e worship of the world, notwithstanding theire said separation, conjunction and profession.
3. They may in time become the true visible Churches of Christ, which at the first were not in the said manner and forme, called, separated and joyned together; but forced and constrained against theire will by the swo…d of the Magistrate.
4. Many of those Churches in our Kingdome, from which you separate, as they now stand, are such a company of people, so called, separated, and joyned together: tho' in all three there may be some kinde of defects and wants.
Fr. Iohnson.
Whether the Sacraments, being the Seales of righteousnes which is by faith, may be administred unto any other but to the faithfull, and their seed: or in any other ministery, or m…nner than is appointed by Iesus Christ, the apostle & high-priest of our profession. And whether they be no otherwise administred in our Cathedrall & parishionall Curches in England.
VV. Bradshaw
1. I grant that ihe Sacraments ought to be admi…ist…ed onelyonly to the faithful in outward p…ofession, and theire seed; and in no other ministery or manner, then is appointed by Christ.
2. In many of our Church…s (at the least) they are adm…nistred in no other manner, from & by no other minist…y then Christ hath appointed; nor to no other persons.
3. Everie error & defect in some part of the matter & forme, and ministry, arising from ignorance or infirmity, maketh not the Churches false Churches: Except you holde; That no true particular Church can erre; which is a more grosse opinion, than that of the Papists.
Fr. Iohnson.
Whether the booke of Common Prayer, with the Feasts, fasts, holie dayes, stinted prayers, & Liturgy prescribed therein, and used in these Assemblys, be the true worship of God commanded in his word; or the devise & invention of man, for Gods woship & service.
VV. Bradshaw
1. Tho' it should be granted, that the b…oke of c…mmon prayer, in all the parts & parcels thereof, is n…t the true worship of G…d; but containeth in it some devises & inventions of man; yet the true worship of God not with standing is prescribed in it.
2. So much of it as is used in manie of our Churches, is the true worship of God, and in effect commanded in his word.
3. Those devises and inventions of men, with the Feasts, fasts, and holy daies therein p…escribed, though they should be granted to be sins & corruptions in our Chu…ches, and such as ought not to be conformed unto: and such as we ought rather to separate from our Churches, than either by Subscription, conformity, or any other meanes, to approove; yet are they not of that nature, that the simple use of any or all of them, doth destroy the very being of those Churches, which use them; making them false Churches, and such as we may have no spirituall communion withall, no not in the best things.
Fr. Iohnson.
Whether all people and Churches, without exception, be not bound in Religion, onelyonly to receive and submit unto that min…stery, worship & order, which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church. Or whether any may receive and joine unto another devised by man for the service of God, And consequently, whether they that joyn to the present Ecclesiasticall ministery, worship and order of the Cathedrall and parishionall assemblys, can be assured by the word of God, that they joine to the former ordained by Christ, and not to the latter devised by man, even the man of sinne, for the worship and service of God?
VV. Bradshaw
1. I grant that we are bound in Religion, to doe that which is specifyed in the first part of your question.
2. To joyn with our Ecclesiasticall ministery, worship and orders (at least in those assemblys, whether Cathedrall or other, when and where all things are not performed according to the rigour of our Laws,) is not to joyn with a ministery and worship devised by that man of sin; but (though not in all the specialitys and formalitys thereof) with such a ministery and worship, as is required and instituted of God.
3. They which joyn to the present Ecclesiasticall ministery, worship and order of the Cathedrall or Parishionall assemblys, in those things which are performed therein according to the true intent and meaning of our Laws, though some things be done not warrantable by the word; yet they may be assured by the word of God, that they joine to the substance of that ministery, worship & order, which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church. At least they may be as well assured thereof by Gods word, as any that join with the present Ecclesiasticall ministerie, worship & order of the assemblys of those of the Separation, can be assured by the same word, that they join to that forme which is ordained by Christ.
Now as concerning these demands, Maister Can telleth us, that Maister Bradshaw undertooke indeed to answere them but he kept himselfe of so covertly from the point, that he hath left them far more obscure and dark than they were before: and in steed of them therefore he propoundeth 13. other questions of his owne, gathered (as he saith) from Maister Bradshaws shifting Answeres & idle put-ofs.
A pritty shift and put-of indeed, to save himselfe labour of taking away Maister Bradshaws Answeres; which he knew not well how to turne his hand unto. It seemeth that either hee is not of his brother Johnsons minde, that these demands decided, will, as he saith, end the controversys between us and them; or he is not over-willing to have them at an end; least his schismaticall function end, and expire with them: or lastly he conceiveth, that Maister Bradshaw hath in h…s answeres so decided th…m, that the sentence of decision goeth on our side. Now this though hee like not well of, yet is he loath to take the pains to take them away, wh…ch indeed …e …either is nor ever wi…l be able well to performe.
As for h…s own bakers dosen of questions, let them deale that list with him. For this is no Scholerly course, but boys-plaie, when Demands have been made, and answeres returned to them, not to reply upon the answeres returned thereunto, nor to examine a…d scan what they say; but to tell the Answerer, that his Answeres are so covert, that they leave things more obscure and dark, than they were, and propound other queres in roome of the former, letting the dispute, propounded and so far prosecuted, fall to the ground.
Thus having run over and examined in defence of Maister Bradshaws Answere to Maister Johnson, whatsoever hath by Maister Can here been opposed thereunto; I conclude at length, as I finde, Maister Cans whole discourse, in regard of his fond and frivolous manner of reasoning, to be nothing else but a Can full of froath; in regard of his lying and unsavoury language, to be not a Can full of froath onelyonly, but of filth too.
Now if upon view hereof, if it ever be so happy, as to come to Maister Cans hand, his fingers shall be itching, as peradventure they will, to be scribling and blotting of paper again, thereby to assay, what he can, to lick his credits whole again, which by his fond and foule dealing therein descried and discovered, he may justly deeme much impeached and impaired: Let him in the first place recant his notorious falsehoods & forgerys, to every eye obvious; these by name among the rest.
1. That Maister Bradshaw doth in this booke stand to maintaine the vil…st abominations in our Churches, having formerly made shew to be a great enemy thereunto, pag. 217.
2. That such corruptions as the Non-conformistes generally have condemned, he basely therein justifyeth, ibi.
3. That pleadeth for dumb dogs, cater-pillers, and idle-bellys, and is such a proctour for them as they never had a better. pag. 221.
4. That he justifieth all such Priests and Deacons, as the Bishops make, wi…hout limitation or exception. pag. 234.
5. That he saith generally, All the ministers of our Church-assemblys. pag. 260.
6. That he inferres, that those (some such) must make all the rest true. ibid.
7. That he sclandereth our State, affirming, that it permits our ministers to be drunckards. pag. 224.
8. That he hath from time to time earnestly craved the aid of Princes, to have the ordinary ministery of our Church-assemblys quite rooted out and abolished. pag. 221.
9. That he useth corrupt shifts to justify civill offices in Ecclesiasticall persons. pag. 224.
10. That he labours, what he can, to justify the peoples practise, in committing the charge of assigning them Ministers to Patrones. pag. 242.
11. That he defendeth the reading of the Articles and Canons. pag. 249.
12. That he justifieth the practise of Popish Ceremonys by himselfe condemned. pag. 230.
13. That his Counsell is much to this effect, so a man holde something, it is no matter what it be, nor how ungroundedly taken up. pag. 227.
14. That by his arguing any heretick may maintaine the gross…st errors, that he holdes and practiseth, pag. 230.
15. That by this manner of arguing a man may be a Iew, a Turke, a Heathen, any thing. pag. 750.
16. That he bestirs himselfe to proove our ministery good, by the Scribes & Pharisees. pag. 231.
17. That Paraeus on Math. 23.2. affirmeth the Scribes and Pharisees to have come rightly and lawfully to the offices they executed. Ibid.
18. That Maister Bradshaws words import, that the ahility, which the Pharisees had to expound the Law, argued them true ministers. pag. 232.
19. That to that of Maister Iohnson affirming our ministery to be unlawfull and Antichristian, because neither theire offices, calling, nor administration is according to Gods word, but all taken from Antichrist; he childishly answereth, that true pastors and teachers may want some accessory parts of theire offices. pag. 250.
20. That he askes, what errors they can proove to be in our Church. pag. 423.
21. That he saith, our ministers have such and such offices, because by Law th…y ou…ht to have them. pag. 240.
22. That he delivereth his yea and nay allwayes upon his owne bare word. pag. 141.
23. That he says the proposition is false, the assumption is false, the consequent is false: but for proofe, a man may as soone finde a needle in a botle of hay, as any, for the things which he boldly denies. pag. 257.
24. That he never brings either Scriptures, Examples, Reasons, or humane Testimoni…s, to confirme any one thing whereof he writes. pag. 235.
These, I say, and other the like evident untrueths, let him in the first place agnize and revoake, whereby his repentance for them may appeare; and then, (if he think good) in the next place, let him enter his Surre…o…nder in defence of his reply, leaving his idle vagarys into points in pertinent to the present busines, and applying his discourse punctually to the Subject matter fi…st …ntended; to wit, the justification of Maister Iohnsons booke against Maister Bradshaws Answere, and he shall not want an Answere to whatsoever he shall surrejoine to this my Rejoinder. Otherwise, let him for my part, looke to be answered as Salomon willeth, such as he sheweth himselfe here to be, Prov. 26.4. with silence. For who will endure to maintaine discourse with one, that by persisting in manifest and palpable untrueth, thereby manifestly sheweth, that he cares not what he sayes, so it may seeme any way to serve his turne? Or who can have the patience to holde dispute with him, that will by no meanes be kept to the point in present agitation; but run backward and forward, and ramble up and down, without list or limite, into what he likes or listes himselfe?
It is a hard taske, I well know, that I now put Maister Can to; and yet no more than equity and reason requireth. And if the propositions therefore please him not, nor he like to accept of them, let him prate at pleasure, & bawl as loud as he list, and rave ad raile, as he doth allmost throughout his whole booke; and fasten as many forged untrueths on this Rejoinder, as he hath done here on Maister Bradshaws Answere; and crow when he hath so done, as if he had made a faire full and finall conquest, because he is not againe answered; all his clamours and calumnys, urgings and darings shall never induce me to set pen to paper againe, and to enter the lists with such an one as he is, so persisting in his folly, untill I shall deeme it fit to vie broade and base language with some common scold, or to contend with a man beside himselfe.
I pitty onelyonly his poore people, that in Schismaticall Separation are led on by such a guide, as this very worke of his shews him to be; which beginning with mention of grace, and ending with prayer for sincere walking, he sheweth litle grace or sincerity in the whole body and bulk of it. And wishing them more wisedome to discerne things that differre, and him more grace and sincerity, than here he hath manifested, I end; having, I hope, sufficiently vindicated in any indifferent & intelligent mans judgement, the credite of my worthy friend, and Gods faithfull servant, from this mans unjust aspersions; and the soundnes of his Answere, from his undue oppositions; or whether I have so done or no, referring my selfe to the doome and sentence of any person not extreamely partiall.
FINIS.
End of the text · William Bradshaw, The Unreasonableness of the Separation Made Apparent 2 (1640)