Dialogue Between the Libertine or Rebel Anabaptist and the Christian, Dialogue

Dialogue Between the Libertine or Rebel Anabaptist and the Christian · Dialogue

The Dialogue. That a Chriſtyan maye execute the office of a maieſtrate. The interloquutours. IOIADA the trewe and obedient Chriſtian, and SIMON the Libertine or Anabaptiſte.

IOIADA.

GOd ſpede Simon, y^u comeſt betyme, I ſe that thou art deſirous of the truth, wherfore I hauehave a good hope, y^t thou ſhalt obteyne & come by that thynge, whiche thou deſireſte ſo greately. Touching y^e magiſtrate, where vponupon, we were determined to hauehave reaſoned, I doute not, but that I ſhall ſatiſfye the in al thinges. But tell fyrſt what thy iudgement is.

SIM.

Thyne opynion is that a chriſtian maye execute the offyce of a Maieſtrate, but I do thynke that both the word & example of Chriſte repugneth to thys opynyon. For when they wold at a certeyn tyme chooſe him to be a kyng, he did runne awaye. Ihon vi. Which thing he wold not hauehave done yf it had not bene againſt all godlyneſſe. And in the .xxii. cha of Luke. Chriſt with expreſſed wordes ſpeketh to his diſciples after this maner: The princes of gentiles do beare rule, and they that hauehave power are called benefyciall, ye ſhall not ſo, but he that is greateſt emonge you, ſhal be y^e leaſt, and he that is chyfeſt, ſhall be as he that myniſtreth. By theſe wordes it is manifeſte and playne, that it becommeth not chryſtyans to execute the offyce of a maieſtrate. It is lawfull for the heathen and infidels, for Chriſt ſaith. The princes of the gentiles.Chriſte came to redeme the world w^t hys bloud.

IOIADA.

Chriſt came not to take awaye the publyke magiſtrates, much leſſe to execute their office, but to redeme y^e world, w^t hys bloud. Wherfore he doth runne away, not conſenting to the affections of y^e people, for he could not hauehave taken vponupon hym the offyce of a king, without commotion, the Romains not permitting it, which were thē rulers But who euer ſo gathered his argument Chriſt was neuer a baker, ergo, no Chriſtyan,The folyſh argumente of the Libertins or Anabaptiſtes. canne be a baker? Why then do ye make this argument: Chriſt neuer executed y^e office of a maieſtrate, ergo, it is not lawfull for a chriſtyan, to be a maieſtrate or beare rule. In the .xxii. of Luke Chriſt doth warne the apoſtles of their dutye & forbyddeth that they ſhould not be buſye in other mens matters, for they had ſtryued by the waye, who ſhould be greateſt emonge them after the death of Chriſte. For they dyd ymagin, that there ſhoulde be ſuch a power and rule emong them, as the biſſhop of Rome hath vſurped in the latter daies in the church. He doth plucke from the minds of his diſciples this ſoure diſeaſe of ambitiō, & deſire of honor, knowinge wel that this ſhould be the chief diſtruction of Eccleſiaſticall prelates. Therfore he vſethe theſe wordes: The princes of nations, &c. As if he ſhoulde ſay: The princes & gouernours of nations, are appoynted to rule & to gouerne, as for you, ye hauehave an other offyce gyuen you. Yet notwithſtandyng, the offyce of a magiſtrate is not abolyſſhed by theſe words, but it may very wel ſtand by the apoſtleſhyp, as it is moſt manifeſt by the words of Chriſt. But this doth begyle & deceue the, y^t thou doeſt take this word, Gentium for the heathen & infideles. For they are here, by a maner of ſpeaking, called princes, and kynges of nations, whyche do gouerne and bear rule in y^e world, which power (as the apoſtles do teſtifye) is ordeyned of god, whych thing Chriſt doth expreſſe by theſe words.Why princes and rulers are called euergetae, y^t is to ſay, beneficiall. They are called Euergetae, that is to ſaye, beneficyall, becauſe that they are ordeyned to do good to them that are good & vertuous.

SI.

By this reaſon and meane, I maye caſt of whatſoeuer can be layde agaynſt me, oute of the ſcriptures, ſaying: This was ſaid to the apoſtles, it perteineth nothing to vsus: But Chriſte teacheth vsus an other thinge in the .xiii. chap, of Marke: Theſe thynges (ſayth he) that I tell you, I do tel to al. This word then, where he ſayth (But ye ſhal not do ſo) perteyneth vntounto al them y^t are godly, and not onelyonly to the apoſtles.How y^e place of the .xiij. cha of Marke, oughte too be vnderſtanded.

IO.

Thou doſt paſſe thy boundes, my Simō, and doſt not abide in the matter that was propouned, our communication is of the magiſtrate. In the .xiij. chap. of Marke, which thou doſt aledge, Chriſt doth exhort his apoſtles to ſobernes and watchinge, & we do gladly confeſſe y^t thys was ſayd to al them that are godly. For ſith y^t the day of y^e lorde ſhall come as a thief, being vnknowen vntounto al men, and y^t the ſame dredeful iudgement of Chriſt, before whoſe iudiciall ſeate, all men muſt apere, doth indifferently hang ouer al men, he doth well in the apoſtles warne, moniſh,The libertins & anabaptiſts do alege y^e textes of the ſcriptures, by halfes. & exhort al men to watch Thou doſt bring the text of y^e euangelyſt vnperfit & mutilate. For theſe be the wordes. Watche ye therefore, for ye can not tel when y^e lord of y^t houſe wil come, whether it wil be in y^e euening, or at midnight or when y^e corkes crow, or in y^e morning leſt if he come ſodenly, he doth fynd you ſleping, That which I ſay to you, I doo ſay it to al mē. Thou canſt not deny, but y^e certain things are ſo ſet furth by Chriſt y^e in a maner, they perteine to al men, but not w^tout a dyfference,An apte and meet deuiſion of all thinges y^e are commaū ded vsus in the ſcriptures and word of god. as when Chriſte ſaith: Ye are the ſalt of the earth. Ye are y^e light of the world. For theſe things do ſo pertain to all them y^t profeſſe y^e religiō of Chriſt, that in y^e meane ſeaſon they do chiefly belong to the biſſhops, and theyr ſucceſſours: yea, & to the magiſtrates. Agayn, certayn thyngs are equally & generally cōmaunded to al men: as he al y^e precepts of mutual charitie & louelove, & of forgiuing our brethrē their offences. Finally, certayne thynges are ſoo ſpoken, that they doo pertaine onelyonly to the apoſtles, and to theyr ſucceſſours, the byſſhoppes and Paſtours, as: Goo ye throughoute al the world, and preache the goſpel to al creatures.We ought not to make the perticuler precepts, vniuerſall commaundementes. Therfore, it is not lawfull too make the ſingulare preceptes, generall & vniuerſall commaundementes. For he y^t reaſoneth on this maner: What ſoeuer is ſayd to the apoſtles, is ſayed to al men, it is ſayde to the apoſtlles, go intoo all the world, and preache: ergo, the ſame is ſaid to all men, doth reaſon foolyſhlye. For Paule ſayeth, y^t al be not apoſtles. Therfore, that, where he ſayeth. But ye ſhall not do ſo, is a perticulare or ſingular precepte, & perteyneth onelyonly to the apoſtles and their ſucceſſours. Thou haſte not yet proued then, that a Chriſtian may not execute the offyce of a magiſtrate.

SIM.

By what argumentes, canſte thou thy ſelfe proue, that a Chriſtyan maye lawefully execute the offyce of a magiſtrate?

IOIA.

Of the election of the magiſtrates we fynde wrytten in the .xviii.Wold god al maieſtrates & rulers, had alwaies this place of the ſcripture before their eien chap. of Exodus, after this maner: Prouide or chooſe out of al people, wyſe men, which fear god, in whome the truth is, & whych hate couetouſneſſe, and make of them, heades ouer the people &c. I do ſuppoſe and thynke them, to be ryghtly choſen, which are choſen & elected by them, whō it belongeth too,How maieſtrates and officers be wel & trewly choſen What ſhal we ſaie by them y^t by their office ſo dere, y^t they be of neceſſitie compelled too ſpoile the kynges ſubiectes for to make vp theyr monye agayne. or whoſe parte it is to chooſe, electe, and make offycers, not, which do get offyces by fauor, by bribes or other deuyliſh waies and meanes; thē (I ſaye) do I thinke to be lawfully called, which either are ſuch as Iethro doth deſcribe here, or elles do ſtudye & labour to be ſuche. I do ſuppoſe nowe, that it is ſufficiently proued, & that by the wordes afore aleged, that ſuche godly men, may execute the office of a maieſtrate in god, for the words do ſignifie the ſame. They that are made rulers, muſt be iuſt, righteous, faythfull, trewe, fearing god, not couetouſe. But who can do theſe thynges better then a chriſtiā? It foloweth agayn in the ſame chapiter. Yf thou doeſt theſe thinges, thou ſhalt fulfyl the commaundement of god, & ſhalt be able to ſuſteine or beare the commaundementes, or burdens of the lord. Sith then that a chriſtiā ought to execute and do the commaundement of god, which thynge is done by y^e mageſtrate, it foloweth y^t a chriſtian may execute the office of a maieſtrate. Dothe not Paule ſaye that the mageſtrate, is y^e miniſter of god? Romaines .xiii. chapter. Wherfore I do make mine argumente after this faſſhyon.Marke and waie this argumente y^u rebell Libertin. All thynges wherby god is ſerued, are lawfull for a chriſtyan: but god is ſerued by a magiſtrate, ergo, it is not forbidden, that a Chriſtian ſhuld execute y^e offyce of a magyſtrate. Of this thing we hauehave innumerable examples of moſt holy men, which were magiſtrates as Abraham, Ioſeph, Iudas, Moiſes, Ioſue, Gedeon, Samuel, Dauid, Ezechias, Ioſias, and other.

SIM.

What is y^t to vsus, y^t they did in the olde teſtament? If we may ſo gather oure argumente, it ſhal be proued by the ſame reaſon, y^t we muſt ſacrifice, & offer vp bulles and goates.

IO.

Doth Paul pertain nothing to y^e? That, which y^u bringeſt of y^e ſacryfices hath no place here:All ſacrifices are aboliſhed by Chriſte Doſt thou not know y^t they are aboliſſhed by Chriſte? But y^u canſt not proue y^t the magyſtrate is aboliſſhed. Tel me now, I pray the, wer not Abraham, Moiſes, Samuel, & the other, whome I hauehave recited, faithfull, and the frendes of god?

SIM.

But they were not chriſtians.

IO.

What is a chriſtian?

SIM.

What a chryſtian is.Which beleueth in Chriſt Ieſus & hath y^e ſpirit of Chriſt.

IO.

Very well Tell me, had the apoſtles an other ſpirit then y^e prophetes?

SIM.

The ſpirite of the apoſtles, and y^e ſpirit of the prophets was al one.The holy fathers of y^e old Teſtamente were chriſtians and alſo maieſtrates.

IO.

The holy men of y^e old teſtament, beleued in Chriſt, and had the ſpirit of Chriſte: ergo, they were chriſtyans, and they were not onelyonly chriſtyans but alſo magiſtrates, rulers, and officers then a chriſtian maye be a Magiſtrate. That the holy men of the old teſtament, had y^e ſpirit of Chriſte, it is manifeſt by y^e firſt chap. of the .i. Epiſtle of Peter. For he ſpeaketh after this maner. Of y^e whiche ſaluation. y^e prophetes hauehave enquired & ſought, which did prophecie of y^e grace y^t ſhuld come vponupon you, ſeking to whom or to what time, y^e ſpirit of Chriſt, whych was in them, did ſignifie. And that they did beleue in Chriſt, Chriſt him ſelf doth teſtifie in the .viii. chap. of Ihon, & Paul in y^t .i. to y^e Corin. & .x. chap. They dyd all (ſpeaking of y^e fathers of y^e old teſtamēt) eat one ſpirituall meat wyth vsus, & all did drinke one ſpiritual drinke. And they did drinke of y^e ſpiritual rocke,What difference there is betwene the congregation of the Patriarkes & our congregacion y^t folowed thē & the rocke was Chriſt. The congregatyon thē, of them y^t did beleue in thoſe dayes, and of them that do beleue now, is al one, whiche congregation is gathered in one ſpirit. This difference onelyonly there is y^t they did beleue in Chriſt, being promiſed, and which was yet to come, & we do beleue in him, y^t is alredy come & exhibyted How they dyd eſteme, regarde, and vnderſtand the ceremonies, it is eaſye to be ſene in the prophets.

SIM.

Then whē we do iudge, we muſt vſe the lawes of y^e Iewes.

IOIA.

That doth not folowe, ſyth y^t they were no more bounde to the law, then we are. The marke that the chriſtian maieſtrate dothe ſhote at, is that peace & iuſtice maye floriſhe, that men maye lyue righteouſly, godly, innocently, & honeſtlye: on the contrarie ſyde, that vyces and wickednes maie be roted out and puniſſhed, that ſedition, tumult, and rebellion and al ſuch other thinges, may be eyther taken hede of, or elles baniſhed awaie vtterly. It ſcilleth not by what lawes theſe thynges be done, ſo y^e they be done. We do not reade that the apoſtles dyd euer preache agaynſt the lawes of the gentyles. And why? becauſe that the faſſhions lawes, and cuſtomes, of countreyes and natyons, were dyuerſe and ſundry, nor it could be poſſyble, that all thynges ſhuld be conuenyent for all menne. But what nede we to ſpeake of y^e auncyent fathers? We wyll come to the newe teſtamente. Nicodemus, and Ioſeph dyd beare rule. He was the ſteward of Quene Candace that was baptized by Philip, & receiued into the flocke of Chriſt Cornelius was a chriſtian, which dyd ſende for Peter, and was baptized by hym. Surgius Paulus and Eraſtus were receyued by Paule. Thou canſte not denye but that all theſe were common offycers.

SIM.

They were officers, whē they came to the faith but it is not expreſſedlye ſet forthe, y^t they dyd remayne in theyr offyce, after y^t they dyd receiue the fayth.

IOIA.

Therfore I wyl heare by what reaſons thou canſt proue, y^t faythe dyd put them from theyr office.

SIM.

What neadeth any probation, ſyth that it is not written, that they dyd abyde in theyr office?

IOI.

Shewe then, that they dyd not continew in their office.

SIM.

I can not.

IOI.

Then y^u haſt proued nothing, & myne arguments that I do bringe, are as ſtronge as thine. Trewly theſe queſtions do engender infinit contentions, & bringe a mans mynd into perplexitie. Herken to me then.The chriſtian fayth, doth put no man frō hys office. The chriſtian faith, doth put no man from his empire, dominion, rule, or office: For Ioſeph and y^e other whiche we hauehave named before, were chriſtyans, & were alſoo publike magiſtrats & officers. Likewiſe, Ihō doth not commaund y^e ſouldiers to put a waie & forſake warfare, inioyning thē only, y^t they ſhuld hurte or accuſe falſely no man, and that they ſhoulde be contente wyth theyr wages. Luke .iii. chapter. If faith, & the name of a Chriſtian ſhuld conſtrayne any man to goo from his power & authority, truely it ſhuld compel him to go from the ſeruyce of god. For y^e Magiſtrate or officer, is y^e miniſter or ſeruant of god. The Euangeliſte, when he maketh mentiō of Ioſeph of Arimathia, doth ſay y^t he was a ſenator or alder man. Agayne he ſayth, y^t he was an honeſt & iuſte man, but w^tout faith there can be no righteouſnes. (For by faith y^e righteous doth liue) He is righteous, he is faithfull, he is a ſenatour, ergo, a faythfull may be an alder man or ſenatour. Paul. Ro. xv. ſayth: Eraſtus y^t receyuer of y^e towne, doth ſalute you. He was then in office, he was notte gone frō his office of a receiuer. For in y^e ii. to Tim. iiii. He did ſay y^t he did dwel in Corinthus. Thou doſt not read y^t Philip did forbid y^e Eununchus his ſtewardſhip But now I wil hear whether thou canſt bring anye other thinge.

SIM.

I hauehave no expreſſed wordes, touchyng the ſame But this doth ſeme vntounto me moſt deteſtable, & moſt vnſemely for a chriſtyan, y^t he ſhould ſyt there, where many thinges are done againſt the law, & againſt right as it is often times done in iudgementes and in the ſenate or parliamente houſe.

IOIA.

I hauehave proued y^t a chriſtan may execute the office of a Magiſtrate. What ſhall I ſay to thyne obiections? Nicodemus & Ioſeph were in y^e bloudy councel, where Chriſt was condemned, & yet not w^tſtanding, they were not polluted with y^t bloudy iudgement. For thei did not cō ſent to y^e counſails of y^e vngodly. Lu. xxiii Wherfore a chriſtian, is nothing harmed though y^t he ſate in y^e councel of y^e vngodly, ſo y^t he doth not conſent to their filthy dedes & actes, but defende & counſayle, y^e which is ryght, as much as lieth in him. Pſalme .i. But now loke vponupon y^e thinge more narowly, & ponder it more diligently, whether it is better y^t godly men and chriſtyans, ſhould be rulers and Magyſtrates, or vngodlye perſons? For if the Magyſtrate be an infydell, what goodneſſe can wee looke too hauehave of hym?

For he can do no maner of good him ſelf beinge not good, as be all they, y^t neyther know, nor worſhip god, which thinge ye do not deny your ſelues. Syth then that ye do ſay, that a chriſtian neither can, nor ought to beare rule or be a Magyſtrate, what other thynge do ye ſay, but y^t there ought to be no goodneſſe at al in y^e magyſtrate?If y^e doctryne of y^e Libertins & anabaptiſts ſhuld ſtand, al right & iuſtice ſhuld be peruerted. Which doctrine if it ſhould ſtand ſhuld not all ryght and iuſtice be peruerted? They that ay y^t a Chriſtian can not be a Magiſtrate, and graunt that the vngodly may, they ſeke nothing els, but to deſtroy al religyon and common weale. Can any man gouerne & rule better then he that worſhpipeth god,As kingdoms dyd alwayes floriſhe vnderunder godly & vertuous princes, ſo they hauehave ben ouerwhelmed w^t al kindes of calamites whē vngodly men did beare rule and liueth innocently before him? We do learne out of y^e bokes of iudges, of Samuel, of Kynges, and of y^e Chronicles, that the Realmes & kingdoms were neuer in a better & more proſperous ſtate, then when godlye iudges and kinges dyd beare rule. Againe, y^t there were neuer ſo troublous tymes, ſo muche wyckednes, famine, hunger, warres, tumultes, and calamytyes, as hauehave bene vnderunder vngodlye tyrauntes, as was Hieroboam, Achab, Manaſſes. &c. Therfore we do now conclude, not onelyonly that a chriſtian may execute the office of a magiſtrate, but alſo that ſuche an offyce can not be proſperouſly and wel adminiſtred but by chriſtians.