As You Were 2, Text
AS YOV WERE: OR A reducing (if poſsibly any) ſeduc't ones, to Facing about, turning head, Front againſt God) by the Recrimination (ſo intended) upon Mr. J. G. (P…ſtor of the Church in Colemanſt…eet) in point of Fighting againſt GOD.
By an unworthy Auditor of the ſaid (Iuditious-pious-Divine) Maſter IOHN GOODVVIN.
Su…oſed … Ezech: Woodward
nouemb: 13: Printed in London the yeere. 1644.
AS YOƲ WERE.
1. THe Recriminator (ſo hee may bee nam'd, if a quality, diſpoſition, may denominate its ſubject) ſaith; That to build on what Gamaliel here ſpeakes is to build on a rotten and unſound Foundation. Reader, if the Councell had not done thus, how had the Apoſtles fared? Certainely bad enough, they had loſt their lives by the ſentence of the Court. But why ſaith the Recr: as he doth?
1. He tells us that hee never heard ſo much good of Gamaliel except from Popiſh Interpreters. But (to beleeve him herein, haply hee read none other on the place) may not others here ſo much from ſome other not Popiſh? Truly I have read but two, and they ſufficient enough in ſuch a caſe, viz. Piſcator & Baeza; The firſt ſaith that Gamaliel is here commended: the latter ſaies no whit leſſe, ſome what more then the former; according to him, Gamaliel was a Patron of Chriſts cauſe. Indeede the Miniſter ſpake not a word of any perſonall goodneſſe in the man, but of the authority of what was ſpoken by him. Balaam, Saul, and Caipha's may prophecy; But he tells us the beſt Interpreters judge him irreligious, &c. Who are they? Hee tells us not. Wherein Gamaliel thus? he ſhewes us not. But let them bee what they will, and this ſpeaker ſo and ſo too, yet it prejudices not the Preachers Doctrine.
2. He ſaith Gamaliels ſcope was but the preſervation of himſelfe and the Councell (he might well have preferred the Councell in placing his words ſee verſes 35, 38, 39.) from the feare of Jewes and wrath of Romans; Poore man! The firſt would be but at the Apoſtles apprehenſion (as of Chriſt, its ſaid they laid not their hands on him for feare of the people, not execution (as it appeares in the example,) the latter they oft regarded not in ſuch a caſe (as appeares in the ſtories of the Goſpel and Acts. Eminently in that they oft would have killed Paul a Roman borne, (Acts 23. 27.) and I diſpute not how by their Law. Cap. 24. 6. The Recr: without ground runnes aſtray from the Text, to fetch a meaning which will not agree with this place. For the ſpeech of Gamaliel tends manifeſtly (to any not partiall, prejudic't) to with-holding from theſe [Apoſtles] and that reſpecting their Councell and workes, and al leaſt endeavoring to overthrow it, they be found [even] fighters againſt God, verſ. 35. 38. &c.
3. He ſaith, though there be ſome truth in the ſpeech, yet three great errors; namely, 1 He makes it uncertaine whether the Apoſtles Doctrine & Miracles were from God or men? True, hee makes it if twere uncertaine; but to prove that he indeede held it ſo is more then this Annymus can prove; He might, and in all likelyhood did thus expreſſe himſelfe for feare, or policy (as many moſt thinke.) So did Huſhai ſtrangely for an honeſt heart, in that caſe of Davids, in his Councell to Abſolom, whereby he defeated that of Achitophel 2 Sam. 17. Were Gamaliel certaine of that hee ſpeakes of doubtfully, he exceeded a Polititian, was not a Neutraliſt, nor Adieophorit, Nullifidian, but believed) and ſo haply exceeded his judgers. But whether dubious or grounded herein, its evident he here fought for God. And that he ſaid, was good, (1) in it ſelfe; Therefore Godly learned Gualter ſaith it ſhould be to us as an Oracle to learne from, &c. (which no evill ſpeech may be) I qote it becauſe the Miniſter doth (2) In the riſe alſo, probably, Gods ſpirit was the motive as of Nicodemus his admonition. Joh. 7. 50. 51. Its the Interpreters inſtance. (3) In the meanes lawfull. He a Doctor of the Law one of this chiefe Councell, Aſſembly gives this advice (and that ſeaſonably) at a conſultation (4) In the end its rendered ſo. It ſaves the lives of the Apoſtles, and that intendedly.
2. He would himſelfe and have others judge this (or things to many ſeeming dubious, whether of God or no, uncertaine for the preſent) by the event. Truely God gives ſuch a Law; he would have Prophets whether falſe or true, tried thus, Deut. 18. laſt; and hereby this Councell were ſuch judged, and according to Gods rule and ordinance and leaſt found fighters againſt him. They yeeld to this Doctor of the Law, his advice of letting theſe (Apoſtles alone till God and themſelves clearely diſcover what now appeares dubious, uncertaine (which ſuppos'd uncertainty in Gamaliel is this mans firſt exception, error.
3. According to his Councell Hereticks and Hereſie ſhould bee let alone in confidence, that if ſuch waies if not of God will come to nought. How now? doſt thou not underſtand, or doſt you be—Gamaliel; Gamaliel was (poſſibly, yea probably) as great an enemy of, adverſaty, deſtruction to Hereticks, Hereſie as this Recr: and would have acquited himſelfe as ſuch an one, and had the whole Councell alſo, like Jewes indeede rooted out, pluckt up theſe, if he had knowne them ſo to be and evidenced it to them. But the caſe ſtanding as it did, Gamaliel ſpeakes for the Apoſtles, and the Councell agree to him, not proceeding to their ſlaying. (According to this the Miniſter ſpake, that till wee are certaine that ſuch a Doctrine is Hereſie, we cannot without danger of being found fighters againſt God, endeavour to overthrow it.)
Next hee would ſhew an odious compariſon; which is not ſo unleſſe every compariſon be odious. Its true, ſome Miniſters of the Congregationall way are of a very choiſe annointing. God hath given them a ſpirit of diſcerning [that truth] above ſome others: yet may thoſe ſome others be pillars and prime men in the Houſe and Temple of God, and haply willing to bee thought ſ… too, as it ſeemes Paul was as well as Peter, Gal. 2. where Paul no… onelyonly compareth but preſerreth himſelfe unto Peter (ſo ſaith earned King James in his Epiſtle to all Chriſtian Mornarch, pag. 48.) and that on purpoſe to heighten his owne eſtimation. Here the Recr: quotes diſcriptions and conceits (in the prime thickneſſe of his wit) that there was a contradictiō among them; but afterwards (reading good ingenuous lines, ſh…rpens, raiſeth, quickens the inventi…n, w…t) he his on reconci…ing them, (the apparition diſappeares.) But why inſerts he the Section? Its likely wh…n hee began he intended not to dead ingenuouſly, to ſhew this: but now he is contented to doe it, haply in caution to prevent the Reply. For ſure enough there is no ſuch great art, &c. in this Act for our rearning, his glorying.
Next he ſaith the Congregationall way doth hinder the Presbyteriall waies driving on. In truth the caſe is thus, the Presbyteriall drivers will rather in ſtate, ſtand and not goe on, then ſuffer the Congregationall way (the elder ſiſter) to goe a foote before them.
To the next quotation the Miniſter, ſpeake not what hee ſaid that way is like to prove to many, without ground: For if the roaring at a diſtance is ſo terible, afflicts ſo, what wil be the miſery of its perſence? probably—So as the dred, Pſal. 90. 11.
To the next quotation, if this Recr: be a Preacher I commend his reach he takes Text enough. If Mr. John Goodwins writing will not doe, hee turnes to the Apologiſts. (Reader, remember his Chimaera) who knit a knot with Mr. Goodwin, yet the ſayings abide ſingle and apart, unentangled. The Apologiſts deny not what Mr. Goodwin ſaies nor Mr. Goodwin what the Apologiſt writ, who add if the Magiſtrates power backe the ſentence of Non-communion, it will be as effectuall [as the Presbyteriall way is ſuppoſed to be.] Sir, here effectualnes is not ſimply aſcrib'd to the Presbyteriall way, nor to the Congregationall by this backing, where then is the tye?
To the next quotation, if he like not the anſwer he ſhould have well anſwered Naziaren, and not have crept away with a Tempora mutan…ur, &c. Well, God mend us, and ſo the times. Here next the Recr: falſely quotes the words. The firſt ſentence is this, why may we not thinke but that God may aſwell ſay, that there are too many learned and wiſe men in great Councell, for God to reveale truth, or to give truth victory, againſt errour by §. 2. Hee quotes halfe a line out of a ſentence containing 15. lines Which in effect ſay, that where greater numbers of men accompliſht with grace, &c. ſhall aſſemble, &c. to argue &c. onelyonly with an intent to be helpers of the Saints, and not to exerciſe a dominion over their faith. (2 Cor. 11. 24) they may expect a ſpeciall preſence of God with them. The third is plainely this, that even in Councells, &c. its' uſually ſeene that ſome one or few either of predominate parts or authority among them, ſway and ſteer, &c. And is any the leaſt appearance of evill, in ſaying this? (1) Have not even thoſe admirers, worſhippers of Councels (the Papiſts I meane) ſpoken m…re and ill of Counſell? But herein comes not Mr. Goodwin neere the Arminians? &c. A poore ſhift for a calumniation. I finde the Arminians in their confeſſion (cap. 25. d… Synodis) ſaying, that Synods ought to be convented by the example of the Apoſtles themſelves, Acts 15. And that they ought in the firſt place to drive Hereticks from the Churches, &c. And that the Chriſtian Magiſtrates (after God and Chriſts cheif) authority ought to intervene, and ſay not all Presbyterians the ſame? come not they neere the Arminians? Thus it is to argue like the Recriminator. 2. Have not our worthy writers againſt Papiſts ſaid as much as Mr. Goodwin (in this point) and ſeven times over and once more: In perticu…iar Whitaker whom he quotes? I will inſtance in places if cauſe
Next he would claſpe the hands of the Apologiſts and Mr. Goodwin, and make us beleeve they give a blow to Parliaments power, viz. coercive in matters of Religion, (hee ſhould like a man have manifeſted what that power is, and that God hath given it, &c. And that theſe give leſſe to the Magiſtrate than the principles of the Presbyterians. This would have abundantly rendred him acceptable to the Congregationall men. If the man emulate ſuch an honour, let him appeare in the Cauſe.
Next hee would have Mr. Goodwin give his firſt borne for his tranſgreſſion what tranſgreſſion? Forſooth, hee againſt his Doctrine lifts up a thought, &c. againſt the Presbyteriall way which claimeth origination and diſcent from Heaven, and that without ſecurity upon ſecurity, &c. How knowes he that? Did Mr. Goodwin tell him or any other ſo, or hath hee faculty without his acknowledging, to know his evidence? Surely neither, but we bee—Mr. Goodwin. Well then, ſuppoſe Mr. Goodwin hath ſuch a demonſtration &c. yet may not another, or any without ſo much proofe, appeare in conteſtation againſt this or that Doctrine as Hereſie? &c. Alas. The whole booke anſwers this objection, yet the — askes it. But yet (ſaith this never c…ntented man) falls not this upon the excommunication in the congregational way ſuch evidence, proofe, demonſtration, ſecurity, a heritick may, ought to be after orderly proceeding, rejected, caſt out of the lines of the Churches Communication, &c.
From my Counting-houſe. October 24. P. P.
REader,
The charge of the blood of our men, &c. loſt at the defeate in the Weſt, is a heavie charge: it hath and will make the beares ſpeake when the murther of Jeſus, was laid on the heads of the Jewes, they are cut to the heart, and take Councell to ſlay the Apoſtles, verſ. 23. of this Chap. and Chap. 7. 54. they are againe cut to the heart at this, and gna… on Steven with their teeth, and yet truly there it lies.vide cap. 5. 28. Now I remember what Mr. Peeters (that faithfull countryman and laborious for the States good) ſaid but th' other day, (a Tueſday the faſt day for our Armies.) I am confident, it was that (he had ſpoken againſt ſcratching, afflcting our brethren) gave us the blow in the Weſt. VponUpon which Mr. Goodwin preacht theſe Sermons.
FINIS.
End of the text · Hezekiah Woodward, As You Were 2 (1644)