Answer to the Narration of the Practices of the Churches in New England, Part 16
Anſwer to CHAP. XII.
A Short Anſwer might ſerve to this long Chapter, for moſt of it (as alſo of the two next) is but a repetition of things ſpoken once or twice, (ſome of them) thrice before, and anſwered to already. He ſaid in the beginning of his preface he wanted not work…, but (it ſeemes) now towards the end of his booke, he is more at leaſure, (and ſo hee thinkes his reader is alſo,) elſe why he ſhould ſo double & treble the very ſame things (totidem verbis) I know not, unleſſe happily to make a deeper impreſſion of his owne miſtakes in his reader.
In Art. 1. he tells us, that after a Church is gathered, it is often ſome yeares before ſhe addreſſeth her ſelfe to the calling of Officers.
Whereas it is our uſuall and conſtant courſe (as hath beene ſaid) not to gather any Church; untill they have one amongſt themſelves, Anſ. fit for a Miniſter, whom with all ſpeede they call into Office, and account themſelves a lame and imperfect body till that be effected.
In his Marg. on that Art. he ſaith hee is told to his comfort, that many that were counted good Miniſters in Old-England, are there layed aſide, becauſe they aime at men of ſpeciall parts.
1. We deſire proofe for this aſperſion unjuſtly caſt on us, Anſw. or elſe we ſhall ſtill father it upon himſelfe, as
2. That good Miniſters are laid aſide there, 2. many good Miniſters, 3 on this ground, becauſe they aime at men of ſpecial abilities And whereas he ſaith, he was told ſo, that is not ſufficient: Let him produce his Authors, or it muſt lie on him.
I wonder he counts it ſtrange (in Art. 3.) that we ſhould deſire to have a man to be a Member before he be an Officer.
Is it not a thing moſt naturall for a body to imploy it's own Members? Anſw. 2. Is not the mutuall intereſt in each other the ſtronger tye? … Doe not all bodies and ſocieties in the world, the very ſame? Was eve… any man of another corporation, elected Sheriffe, Major, or into any ſpeciall office in London, unleſſe he were firſt ſeaſoned with this ſame ſalt (as he ſaith) of Memberſhip of the ſame body?
To the 4 Art. of ordaining Miniſters by private men.
Let him not wonder at this, for Numb. 8.10. he may ſee, Anſwer. that though the Levites were Church Officers, and the Children of Iſrael were not; yet the Children of Iſrael did lay their hands upon the Levites; And though all the Children of Iſrael could not doe this, yet ſome principall ones did it inſtead of the reſt. So it may be lawfull in ſome caſe to doe the like. 2. If people have a power of election of Officers, (which is the greater) then why may they not ordaine them (which is the leſſe) unto the office which before they elected them to? But I referre the Reader to ſee more of this, in Mr. Mathers late anſwer to Mr. Herle, pag. 45.
To the 5. Art. where he ſaith, We hold the impoſition of hands of the Presbyterie, but a meere formality.
…nſwer.Doth he judge all the Churches and Miniſters of Chriſt, there, ſo devoyd of Religion, reaſon or the light of common ſenſe, as to account a venerable Ordinance of God [a meere formality?]
But that you may ſee whether he deals well with us or no, vid. Anſ. to 34. q. p. 67. where its expreſly ſaid, That though the eſſence of a Miniſters call conſiſts in Election, yet we looke at ordination by impoſition of hands, neceſary by divine inſtitution] can he with any ſhew of reaſon explicate a thing [neceſſary by divine inſtitution] by [a meere formality,] is this right commenting upon the text? And note alſo that this very place cited is one proofe he brings for this Article, but whether for him or directly againſt him, I pray judge.
For the other printed proofe (diſcourſe of Covenant, p. 23.) I confidently affirme there is not any one word, or the leaſt ſhew for ſuch an expreſſion, let the Reader prove whether I wrong him or no, but only that people have power to chooſe their own Officers.
Let him not delude the world by thwacking quotations on his Articles, when it's an uſuall thing that ſome of them ſpeake nothing for him, others directly againſt him.
In Margent of 5. Art. he ſaith, That all that are elected by th… people to prea…h (which is one chiefe duty of the Paſtour) and doe receive by compact the dues by law to the Paſtour, …uld be their Paſtour.
Anſ. Though preaching by a Paſtour called into office, be one of the principall workes of his office, yet all preaching is not a Paſtorall worke, as Act. 8.4. The ſcattered Church, without reſpect to an office, are ſaid to [preach] the word every where. Now if a man be called by a congregation, to exerciſe his gift in this worke of preaching only, and not to be a Paſtour to them: ſhould he not exceed the bounds of his call, if he ſhould be (as W. R. would have him) a Paſtour to that people? And by this reaſon alſo he condemnes all Lecturers (and I ſuppoſe himſelfe in ſo doing) (for they are called to preach, yet no man lookes on them) or they on thēſelves, as Paſtours of that place, where they ſo exerciſe. As for the dues he receives for his preaching, whether more or leſſe, by a compact or otherwiſe, whether of the ſame kind with the Paſtour or not) is not materiall, for it's his call, not his wages, makes him a Paſtour or no Paſtour.
In the Marg. of the 6. Art. he ſaith, that one Paſtour or Teacher alone, or one private man layes on his hands.
It hath neither proofe nor truth, Anſw. but is againſt our judgements and practiſe, and ſo I leave him to looke over ſuch ungrounded, and looſe ſpeeches caſt upon our way.
Art. 7. That in our practiſe we uſually confound the Paſtours & Teachers office, the Paſtour and Teacher equally teaching, and applying the word without any difference.
This hath no more truth then the other, Anſwer. for it is both our profeſſed judgements and conſtant practiſe, that as the teacher is choſen, whoſe proper gift is aptneſſe to teach, ſo after hee is choſen, hee bends himſelfe that way, and waites upon teaching, ſo the Paſtor upon exhotting, as Rom. 12.7, 8. Though in ſuch congregations where there is but one, hee labours to improve his talent both waies, for the preſent neceſsity till that defect be ſupplyed, (as good reaſon he hath ſo to doe.) And for his proofe, (ſee how punctuall he is) he turnes us to Mr. Cot. Sermons on the Revel. and other Texts. Would he have us looke over all Maſter Cot. Sermons, which may be at leaſt 500. or 1000 pages, to find his proofes, and when we have done, we ſhall be juſt where we were, for Mr. Cot. (we know) is expreſly contrary to him, and for that we turne him not to all his Sermons as he doth us, but to one certaine place in his Cat. p. 2. whoſe words are theſe; The Paſtors ſpeciall worke is to attend upon exhortation; The Teacher on Doctrine: and his owne, and others practiſes there run accordingly.
In the Marg. to this Article he ſaith, That ſome of us doe queſtion the Communion of Churches as a thing overthrowing ſome of our principles, 2 that others, (to uphold it) have invented a power in one Miniſter to tranſlate his owne power to another Miniſter to adminiſter the ſeales and cenſures to any of their members.
Both theſe are ungrounded, unproved, expreſſions, Anſw. and but repealed by him, now anſwered before by us; therefore I paſſe them by.
As for that Inference he ſeemes to drawe that every Ministeriall act without power, and irregularly done it ſeemes voyd, and ſo millions of perſons unbaptiſed to this day.
This might have beene ſpared for that maxim in law well approved of by Divines in this caſe (quod fieri non debuit factum val…t) holds good here. Anſw. I know no grounds that Zipporah had to have circumciſed her ſonne (for it was proper to the man, as Gen. 17.9.23.) yet being done, it was not void or null, & though a Prieſt (popiſhly affected) ſhould baptiſe a child with many invented ſuperſtitious, the child is not looked on as unbaptiſed
To Art. 9. he ſaith, wee hold, All other acts beſides adminiſtration of the Sacraments are common to members, as well as to Miniſters. Anſ.
1. It is not true, (we hold no ſuch thing.)
2. The proofe hee brings no whit reacheth it.
3. It is directly againſt his owne Authors, he builds upon Anſwer to 32. q. p. 57. The calling (ſaith he) of Aſſemblies, and diſmiſſing them, preaching the word and prayer, adminiſtring the ſeales, permitting to ſpeake in the Aſſembly, enjoyning ſilence, voting of matters, pronouncing of cenſures, &c. Theſe are acts which the Presbyters may doe and no other members.
4. It is contrary to himſelfe, chap. 6. Art. 8. where he ſetts downe the ſeverall acts which he himſelfe ſaith we aſcent unto our Officers.
Art. 10. He ſaith, That if a Miniſter who layes downe his miniſtry upon just grounds he is now become as a meere private man.
Anſw. Whereas hee is looked on and reverenced as a worthy inſtrument of Chriſt, a man of gifts & parts, one that hath honored God in his houſe, and may doe it againe, and in meane time is imployed in diſpenſing his gifts, &c. is this to bee as a [meere private man;] but hee is not able to ſpeake without diſparaging.
To Art. 12. That the end of our Miniſtry is onelyonly the building up of men already converted, (as ſuppoſing our members are all reall ſaints already,) nor are we bound by our Office to attend to converſion of ſoules, and if any bee converted by us, it is accidentall.
Anſwer. He ſtrangly forgets himſelfe, for 1 we ſay not that all our members are certainely reall Saints, but only viſibly, ſo there may be ſome hypocrites amongſt them probably, that may neede converſion, and therefore by our Office we are to attend that worke as farre as the needs of the ſtocke ſhall appeare. 2 The children of our members (the charge of whom our Miniſters undertake, even by vertue of their Offices) are not yet, haply, converted, and he is bound to fulfill his Office towards them.
As for the Author cited to prove this Art. (Anſ. to 32. q. 80. 81.) he offords him not one title towards it; therefore I looke upon this Art. as a deviſed thing of his own, as a great part of his booke is.)
From this Art. thus miſtaken, he drawes many invective concluſions againſt us, in a long Marg. but to no purpoſe at all, for the ground ſincking, the bulding falls; and thus he ſhootes at his owne ſhadow.
☞So ſtill he keepes his old cuſtome, 1 frames a falſe Art. of his own, (as if it were ou…s;) 2 Then pretends a proofe, which is none; 3 Then falls out with us for holding ſuch abſurdities; 4 Laſtly drawes his inferences from his owne premiſes: this is his dealing all along his booke.
And then, (to make all up) he fall a taxing ſome brethren of that way here, for two things, 1 for neglecting to build up their owne Churches at home; whereas he ſhould firſt have proved, that they have not a call to be abſent for a time for their Churches good, and with their conſent.
2. For labouring to convert others here, not ſo much to grace (ſaith he) as to our Church-Covenant. But let our owne Sermons preached (not in corners, but) in the face of thouſands teſtifie for us before God and men what the ſcope of our preaching hath beene and is.
He tell us Art. 14. Firſt, That the Miniſters in New-England are maintained by the Peoples volutary contribution. 2. That this is caſt in according to their weekely gaines, 3 and diſtributed to them according as the Deacons thinke fit.
Here are three particulars affirmed, and hardly any one of them true: Anſ. for 1 this weekly contribution is properly intended, for the poore according to 1 Cor. 16 1. Yet ſo as (if there be much given in.) Some Churches doe (though others do not) appoint the over plus [towards] the Miniſters maintenance, 2 This is not given in by the peoplee, according to their weekely gaines, (for that is an addition of his owne) but as God hath bleſt them with an eſtate in the generall, for ſuppoſe a member that is rich, though he hath not gained but loſt the weeke laſt paſt, yet he contributes on the Lords day following; 3 nor is this diſpenſed to the Miniſters (in thoſe Churches where any part of it is ſo given) though by the hands of the Deacons yet not (for proportion) as they pleaſe, for this were to ſet the Deacons, above the Paſtour and Teacher) but by the Church, who uſually twice in the yeare or oftner, doe meete to conſult and determine of the ſumme to be allowed for that yeere to their Miniſters, and to raiſe it, either from the Churches treaſurie (ſo much of it as there is to be had,) or by a contribution to be then made on purpoſe.
8. And for one proofe of all thoſe he brings Anſ. to 32. q. 77. wherein is nothing to proove any one of the particulars mentiond, but ſomethings rather againſt him. For there it is ſaid, 1 that our Miniſters maintenance muſt be honorable for his perſon, charge, and for hoſpitality; 2. not as almes and courteſie, but as debt and duty, and to be paid according to rules of justice, &c. 3 but for a way of ſettled and ſtinted maintenance there is nothing done that may (marke this) [except from yeere to yeare.] doe but compare theſe words with his narration.
Now upon theſe premiſes unfoundly laid, hee builds many clamorous conſtructions in his Marg. which of themſelves muſt needs fall with the ruines of their foundation, without any trouble of mine.
Then he falls upon ſome of us in particular (whoſoever they are) for ſtrict requireing of ſo much ſet ſtipend for their lectures, or elſe they will not preach.
1. I muſt here profeſſe ſolemly (as in the fight of God) for my part, Anſw. I know not any one of us, that doth ſo; but (ſure I am) I know ſome of the Contrary practiſe, who neither ſtand compounding at all, much leſſe ſtrictly (as he ſaith) require ſo much, and ſo much, leaſt of all, refuſe to preach, when ſuch ſummes of the peoples owne voluntary profering lie unperformed; But yet notwithſtanding, goe on as painefully and conſtantly in their preaching to them, as before.
2. Let me aske him one queſtion, (for it is the third time he hath beene harping on this ſtring,) that if he (on good grounds) knowes any to doe otherwiſe, were it not a better way, more loving and ſutable to the rule of Chriſtians admonition, (in perſonall failings,) to deale privatly and perticularly with ſuch brethren, (for there are but very fewe of them here, and it were eaſily done.) Then (in ſtead of telling themſelves) to print it to the world to their diſcredit? But if he indeede knowes none (as I verily beleeve he doth not, but goes upon ſurmiſes, and ſo caſts imputations upon them ungroundedly, the ſinne is the greater, and God (I hope) will finde a time (in mercy) to deale with his conſcience about it.
He holds ſtill his old courſe, 1. a falſe Article 2. pretended proof, 3. inferences at pleaſure, 4 invectives againſt us, his arrowes are ſhot againſt a braſen wall, let him take heed, leaſt by a divine hand they rebound back.
For the three inſtances in the Magent, I looke upon them as ſo many ſlaunders, for which by rule hee is to give us an account, for whereas by Pauls rule, 1 Tim. 5.19. he is to produce two or three witneſſes for one accuſation, yet he makes three ſeverall accuſations and that of three Churches, without any one witneſſe, therefore till the true father appeares, we muſt ſtill lay the brat at his doore.