Of Liturgies Power of the Keys, Chapter 11 – Chapter 12
CHAP. XI. Conſid. 6.
Reply. TO the ſixt conſideration, this concluſion is not to the queſtion propounded: for wee ſpeake of ſuch as cannot, not of ſuch as refuſe to joyne themſelves to the Churches; or if they doe not joyne, it is not out of contempt, or wilfull neglect, but for lacke of opportunity, or through their default, that ſhould admit them, but doe not.
Anſw. The learned Authour here wholly miſtakes the concluſion of this argument; the concluſion is plaine and expreſſed with the ordinary note, Ergo no chriſtian can expect by the appointment of God, to partake in the ſeales, till he hath joyned himſelfe in Church-fellowſhip, and in the call of the Miniſter; and this is fully to the queſtion propounded: and wee marveld it ſhould not be obſerved, but the laſt words of the anſwer ſhould bee put in ſtead of it, which are onelyonly a ſecondary deduction from the former, as an abſurdity, which may follow: if the other be not granted. And yet hence occaſion is taken to charge us with injurious and tyrannical dealing toward ſuch as are not admitted, which we leave to the Lord to judge of, and of us. You ſay, you accuſe not the diſcretion of our Churches, but impute it to the raſhneſſe of the zealous multitude, but if it were ſo practiſed, as is conceived, the Churches and their guides ſhould ſhew little wiſedome, and faithfulneſſe to the Lord, and the ſoules of his people.
Reply. When a reaſon is demanded of your judgement, why you debarre approved Chriſtians from the ſeales, and we diſlike it, you ſhould put this note upon them, as if againſt light they refuſed orderly to ſubject themſelves to the Goſpell of Chriſt. What warrant you have thus to cenſure, what uſe of this manner of diſpute, we leave it to your godly wiſedome to judge.
Anſw. Wee are heartily ſorry that this reverend man of God, out of a meere and palpable miſtake of the concluſion of the diſpute, ſhould runne out to condemne us for ſo much cenſoriouſneſſe of others without cauſe, whether our manner of diſpute bee here ſo without uſe, wee leave to the judicious reader to judge. And that wee are far from ſuch cenſures of godly approved Chriſtians amongſt us, wee can approve our ſelves to God, and the conſciences of many that live amongſt us; wee doe not ſay that all who doe not joyne with us, doe refuſe againſt light, yet wee finde it true too oft, that forward profeſſors in England here diſcover evidently an heart refuſing againſt light to ſubmit to Gods ordinances, and therefore wee had cauſe to ſay, it were unreaſonable ſuch ſhould have equall liberty with others.
Reply. In the conſideration it ſelfe there are many propoſitions couched to be examined, the firſt, That none have power to diſpenſe ſeales but ſuch as are called to the Ministry, is freely granted. The ſecond, That no man can be ſo called, till there bee a Church to call him, needeth explication. For by the Church you muſt underſtand the community of the faithfull, as they are one body without officers, and ſuch a Church there cannot be, without a miniſtry to call, and admit them into Church fellowſhip.
Anſw. This conſideration ſhines with ſuch cleareneſſe, that an impartiall eye may eaſily ſee that the truth by ſundry diverticula is rather clouded, then the argument fairely anſwered. This ſecond propoſition being too plaine to bee denied, interpretations are ſought, but they are rather objections, to which wee ſhall anſwer in order. Firſt, though wee grant the Lord ordinarily gathered Churches by the miniſtry of men in Office, as the Apoſtles, Evangeliſts, &c. yet not alwayes ſo, as is evident, Acts 11. 20, 21. The ſtory of Waldus is well knowne, and we ſuppoſe you will grant thoſe Waldenſes the name of a true Church. Origen when hee was not allowed of the Church to bee a Miniſtes, yet converted many who died Martyrs. The ſtory alſo of Frumentius is well known, with divers others. Secondly, Miniſters by Office are of two ſorts, either ſuch as are called immediatly or mediatly, ſuch as were immediatly and extraordinarily called, were before Churches, and were called together and begin Churches, (as the Apoſtles, Matth. 28. 20. Act. 1. 8.) But all ordinary officers that are to adminiſter in a Church doe neceſſarily preſuppoſe a Church to call them, unleſſe any will adventure to ſay in plaine Engliſh, that the calling of a Miniſter may bee without the antecedent election of the people, and then wee ſhall finde what to Reply.
Reply. The Apoſtles baptized not themſelves, but by the helpe of others, and thoſe not called of the people to baptize, 1 Cor. 1. 17.
Anſw. Bee it ſo that in Corinth Paul baptized not many but by others, yet firſt we demand, By whom did Paul and the Apoſtles baptize? It was either by Evangeliſts, and ſo it is all one, as if the Apoſtles, as extraordinary officers did it, or by the Paſtors newly choſen and ordained in the Churches newly gathered, who might baptize the reſt; and then the Church was before ſuch officers: or elſe by private perſons, which is denyed expreſly in the Reply to the firſt propoſition.
Reply. The Apoſtles appointed by election Elders in every City or Church, and ſo there was a Church before Elders, but this Church was a ſociety of beleevers by Baptiſme admitted into Church fellowſhip, and therefore there muſt be Miniſters to baptize, before there can bee a Church to call a Miniſter. For a company of unbaptized men cannot chooſe a Miniſter to baptize them.
Anſw. Wee ſee here ſtill how unawares the truth of this propoſition and of the poſition it ſelfe breaketh forth; for the propoſition it is fully yeelded and is moſt plain in the place alluded to Acts 14. Verſ. 23. And the poſition is yeelded alſo, for if the Apoſtles admitted beleevers into all thoſe Churches in the firſt conſtitution of them by baptiſme, (which is the very truth wee contend for, and was formerly denyed) and theſe Churches were ſuch as choſe Elders (and therefore were particular Churches) and ſo the cauſe is fully yeelded.
Reply. A company of converts unbaptized ought to deſire baptiſme, but they have no power to elect one amongst themſelves to diſpenſe the ſeales unto the reſt, &c. It can never bee ſhewed in Scripture that any ſociety of unbaptized did firſt chooſe from among themſelves a Paſtour or Teacher by whom they might bee baptized, you cannot produce one example or other proofe in Scripture of one man teaching the Goſpel miniſterially, but hee was baptized and a member of a true Church or of a ſociety, who made choyce of a Pastor or Teacher, but they were baptized perſons.
Anſw. 1 If all this were granted that when Churches were gathered by Apoſtles and extraordinary officers out of perſons unbaptized, they were firſt baptized into Church fellowſhip, before they choſe Officers, and ſo long as the Apoſtles remained, enjoyed from them other ordinances, as Act. 2. and ſo had no Officers choſen by themſelves, but by Chriſt immediatly for them, yet as when the Apoſtles left them, they muſt chooſe Officers if they will enjoy ordinances: So when there is no ſuch Apoſtles nor Evangeliſts, nor no need of baptiſme, (as is uſually the cauſe of Chriſtians ariſing out of popery) in this caſe wee ſay ſuch Churches can partake of no ordinances without they chooſe officers, and yet this varyeth not from the Scripture patterne neither. But onelyonly ſo farre as the ſtate of thoſe beleevers differ, when Paul found about twelve beleevers at Epheſus, who were baptized by John the Baptiſt, Act. 19. 1. &c. If theſe were by the Apoſtle ſet into a conſtituted Church, as is probable, (being called on further to the knowledge of Chriſt and his will and wayes) there was no need of baptizing them againe with water, but onelyonly with the holy Ghoſt, as the Apoſtles were at Pentecoſt, Act. 1. 5. with 2. 1. 2. and yet no varying from the rule in ſo doing: and the like is our caſe now.
2. If this bee ſo as here you urge, then thoſe former aſſertions muſt needs fall to the ground; as, That every ſociety in covenant with God is the true Church of God, page 23. and that it is ſimply neceſſary to the being of a Church, that it hee layd upon Chriſt the foundation, which being done, the remaining of what is forbidden, or want of what is commanded, cannot put the ſociety from the right and title of a Church. If theſe were ſo a company of unbaptized perſons may bee a Church, being in Covenant with God and layd on Chriſt the foundation, though they want baptiſme.
3. Though no ſuch example of unbaptized perſons chooſing a Paſtour among themſelves can bee ſhewed, when there was no need thereof; (Apoſtles being at hand to baptize them) yet why in abſence of Apoſtles, &c. might they not chooſe ſome other baptized Chriſtian, who comming into ſome farre remote country of Infidels, is a meanes of their converſion; wee ſee nothing to hinder: it would bee hard for any to ſhew an example of Preſbyters holding a Synod or ordaining of Elders, without Apoſtles or ſome extraordinary officer, yet we ſuppoſe, you make no doubt of ſuch things.
4▪ If an example of one unbaptized that preached & baptized Miniſterially would ſatisfie, the example of Iohn the Baptiſt might anſwer your demand, for whether hee baptized himſelfe, or were baptized by ſome other at firſt, an unbaptized perſon did baptize, but wee ſee no need of ſuch an example: Scripture grounds are ſufficient to guide us in theſe caſes, bee they rules, examples or good conſequences deduced from them, and wee reaſon thus; a Church of beleevers profeſſing Chriſt have liberty from Chriſt to chooſe their Officers: But a company of unbaptized men profeſſing the entire faith in a combined ſociety, is a true Church: and therefore may chooſe their officers.
Reply. The third propoſition: That the power of calling Miniſters is given by Chriſt unto the Church, muſt alſo rightly be underſtood, by the Church muſt not be underſtood the faithfull alone, but their guids and Officers with them, who are to goe before them and to governe and direct them in their choyce, neither can wee ſay two or three beleevers linked in a ſociety is ſuch a Church, to whom the call of Miniſters do belong, but that right was given by Chriſt to ſuch Churches, as were gathered by the Apoſtles.
Anſw. The firſt Limitation of this propoſition wee paſſe over as being ſpoken to in the former; to this wee anſwer, that when a Church have guides, wee grant they are to governe them therein, but not to limit them, whom to chooſe, but when the Church have no ſuch guides, (as by death and other wayes it may fall out,) ſhall they then loſe their right of chooſing? if ſo, let it be ſhewed to whom the right falls; They may take what counſell and helpe from others they want, but the choyce is onelyonly in them, and therefore this limitation is needleſſe. For the number of two or three wee contend not, but ſuch Churches as the Apoſtles gathered were particular Congregations, and therefore the right is in ſuch, bee they more or fewer. When Bellarmine ſaith, that our Miniſters intruded themſelves into Churches; no, ſaith Dr. Field, for the people elected them, which they might lawfully doe and ſeparate from wicked Miniſters, which hee proves by the teſtimony of Cyprian, writing to the Biſhops of Spaine not to communicate with Baſilides and Martialis, who fell to Idolatry in times of perſecution, Quando ipſa plebs poteſtatem habet, &c. Alſo from Ocham, who ſaith, Si Papa & maxime celebres Epiſcopi incidunt in haereſin, ad Catholicos devoluta eſt poteſtas omnis judicandi: to which hee addes this reaſon, either they muſt ſeparate from them, and chooſe others, or conſent to their impieties. Field lib. 3. cap. 39. What followeth in this place being little to this point, and for the moſt part not ſcrupled by us: and what is not acknowledged by us, wee ſhall have a fitter occaſion to ſpeake to it, therefore here wee paſſe it over.
Reply▪ Propoſi. 4. That all thoſe who deſire ſeales are bound to joyne themſelves in Church fellowſhip, that ſo they may call a Miniſter to diſpenſe the ſeales unto them, will not follow from the former rightly underſtood: for they muſt partake of the ſeales before they can joyne themſelves together in Church eſtate.
Anſw. To this objection was ſpoken before, onelyonly we marvell why you ſay they muſt firſt partake of Seales, when as Acts 2. they were baptized and added to the Church the ſame day: and 'tis granted the Apoſtles gathered Churches by baptiſme.
Reply. Such as for lack of meanes and opportunity cannot joyne in ſuch eſtate, er bee diſperſed by perſecution or deſtitute of Paſtors or Teachers, may for a time ſeeke the ſeales in other ſocieties.
Anſw. The firſt inſtance is the thing in queſtion; and ſuch as may come to any ſociety to deſire ſeales are not wholly deſtitute of meanes and opportunity to joyne, viz. to that ſociety. The two other inſtances being of ſuch as may bee ſuppoſed ſtill to hold their right in a Church ſociety; the thing is granted by us in way of communion of Churches.
Reply. The people alſo who are deprived of right and libertie to chuſe their paſtour, may deſire the ſeales of him that is ſet over them.
Anſw. This objection is eaſie, for in deſiring ſeales of him and ſubmitting themſelves to his miniſtry, they doe now chooſe him; however at firſt they oppoſed his comming. But what is this to what ought to bee in an orderly way whereof wee ſpeake?
Reply. Theſe propoſitions being allowed for currant; a nation or people plunged into Idolatry or Infidelity, or otherwiſe diſchurched cannot by ordinary meanes recover into a Church eſtate, wherein they may lawfully and according to Gods appointment deſire or expect that the ſeales of the Covenant ſhall bee diſpenſed unto them.
Anſw. What ſhould hinder, if the whole nation would bee willing, to recover themſelves into Churches? Indeed that is rare to be found that all will affect ſuch a recovery. But wee ſee nothing to hinder but all the nation or ſo many as are awakened in conſcience to bewaile their Apoſtaſie and lament after the Lord, having eſpecially the countenance of the ſupreme magiſtrate, ſeverall companies of Chriſtians may combine in Churches ſo as may beſt ſuite with their edification, chuſe officers and injoy ordinances. Nay, è contra, our Proteſtant Divines, as Chemnitius, Field, Brentius, Whitacher, Luther, &c. make peoples power of electing their Miniſters the beſt foundation of a peoples recovery of a true Miniſtry and Church eſtate.
Reply. The fifth Propoſition riſeth beyond meaſure, That no Chriſtian can expect by the appointment of God to partake in the ſeales, till hee have joyned himſelfe in Church fellowſhip and in the call of the Miniſter. We conceive you will not ſay that children and women have to doe in the call of the Miniſter. If ſome part of the Church doe not conſent in the call of the Miniſter, muſt they ſeparate from the ordinances of worſhip, &c.
Anſw. The ſeeming ſwellings of this propoſition will eaſily fall and run within bankes and bounds, if it bee received in its true ſenſe and meaning; for by the call of a Miniſter muſt needs bee underſtood the voluntary ſubjection of all Church members to his miniſtery after hee is called, as well as the act of election of him at the firſt: It were irrationall to thinke a Miniſter is to bee choſen over againe, whenſoever a member is added to the Church. And therefore our meaning was not hard to conceive, and being ſo taken, women chooſe their Miniſter, that is, voluntarily ſubmit to him being choſen: Children are ſubjected to him by their parents: the diſſenting part of the Church ought to ſubmit to him being choſen, and doe if they remaine under his Miniſtry; and ſo in all other caſes you have or can ſuppoſe▪
Reply. Here you ſay people muſt joyne in the call of a Miniſter before they can lawfully deſire and bee admitted to the ſeales. And another hath zealouſly affirmed, It is a preſumptuous ſinne to chooſe an Officer not trayned up and …ryed in debating, diſcuſſing, carrying and contriving Church affaires, in admoniſhing, exhorting, comforting, &c. Lay theſe together and conſider how long many a poore ſoule converted to the faith muſt bee compelled to want Gods ordinances.
Anſw▪ Firſt, it doth not anſwer the profeſſion in the letter thus to joyne us with Mr. Robinſon as another of the ſame ſort as it were. For ſuch as would gladly receive every Syllable from us that may diſlodge their thoughts of ſeparation in us (as wee are heartily deſired to bee aſſured of in the Epiſtle to this Reply) wee thinke would not ſo cloſely joyne us with ſuch they would have us parted from; and upon ſo little occaſion and to ſo little purpoſe, unleſſe they doe much forget themſelves.
Secondly, when it cannot be denied but the choyſe of Miniſters is in the Church, and that hands ſhould not raſhly bee laid on any man: and Deacons the loweſt Office ſhould bee proved and then Miniſter being found blameleſſe, yea hee ſaith and theſe alſo proved, implying that others alſo ſhould bee ſo, 1 Tim. 3. 10. what fault can be found with the ſubſtance of what either Robinſon or our ſelves ſpeake, if our meaning, and his were but charitably taken? If his word bee over-zealous to ſay it is a preſumptuous ſin to doe otherwiſe, what is that to us?
Thirdly, For the delay of ordinances, if both theſe be taken together: in moſt caſes it need not be long, where God affordeth able and fit men for office. But if ſome delay be, and that a church want ſome ordinances, and cannot by Communion with other Churches injoy them, (which is rare,) yet is it not better to forbeare ſome ordinances a while, then miſcarry in ſo great a worke as the choiſe of officers, upon which the following comfort and good of the Church doth ſo much depend? The demand following is anſwered in this whole diſcourſe, and wee hope not with words but proofes; eſpecially in our anſwer to the Reply in the firſt conſideration: neither doe wee ſee any ſuch difficulty, but that ſuch Chriſtians may as eaſily joyne to ſuch a Church for a time, as deſire to injoy the ordinances, and to ſit looſe from it: for tranſient members we diſallow not.
Reply. If the propoſitions may ſtand for good, I feare we ſhal ſcarce finde that ever in ordinary way the Sacraments were lawfully diſpenſed or received in the Chriſtian Churches of God ſince the firſt foundation of them.
Anſw. If they bee taken in their true meaning, and in that latitude we intend them, wee ſee no ſuch cauſe of ſcruple. For what is more ordinary in all true Churches, then for people, firſt to chuſe their Miniſters, & then to receive the ſeals at their hands? and this hath beene the way of Ancient reformers, It is true; many corruptions have beene in many true Churches, and uſurpations upon the right of the people in chooſing their Miniſters, as alſo in adminiſtrations of the Ordinances themſelves, and oft in the Conſtitution of Churches. But as the maintaining of any truth of God againſt thoſe corruptions in worſhip, &c. doth not argue an unlawfulneſſe of the ordinances in ſuch Churches, but convinceth onelyonly the corrupt adminiſtration of them: So in this caſe to aſſent the right way of Churches electing officers, and injoying Ordinances againſt all corruptions that have beene in the Churches, doth not make a nullity of the Ordinances themſelves. We may ſay that this concluſion riſeth beyond meaſure. The objections being thus anſwered, we leave the concluſion to the judgement of the indifferent Reader.
CHAP. XII.
Reply. TO the ſeventh conſideration, The practiſe of the Church of Strangers in London, recorded by John Alaſco, is for differing from your judgment and practiſe in the point in question. For firſt, ſay they, Paul teſtifieth that the Church it ſelf, without exception of any member of it, is cleane or holy by the adminiſtration of baptiſme.
Anſw. We confeſſe the ſame.
Reply. Secondly, They bold Communion with the Church of England as one with theirs.
Anſw. The Church of England they call it not, but the Engliſh Churches: and we deny not the ſame in an orderly way: as they alſo required Teſtimony of their piety, if any did but preſent a child to baptiſme in their Church. Wee have often profeſſed this, and by your owne grant moſt of the approved Chriſtians amongſt us are not members of the Engliſh Churches, having renounced their right of memberſhip and Commuion with the Church they were of there.
Reply. Thirdly, This order was obſerved by them to prevent the impoſtures of ſome that pretended to the Engliſh they were joyned to the Strangers; & contra.
Anſw. This was not the onelyonly reaſon of their order; for his words are, All ſtrangers doe not joyne themſelves to our Church; yea there are thoſe that avoiding all Churches, &c. which plainely ſheweth they looked further then ſuch according to our practiſe: even their owne country men fled for religion, as we are: they yet received them not till by publike profeſſion of faith and ſubjection to diſcipline, they joyned themſelves to ſome Congregationall Church.
Secondly, this ſheweth what diſorder and abuſe of ordinances will follow from ſuch a liberty to admit ſuch as are not joyned to ſome Church: for by this meanes many will neglect all order and diſcipline, if they may but have the ſeales.
Thirdly, to put all out of queſtion that their practiſe and judgement in effect was the ſame with ours in this point, note the firſt queſtion propounded by them, Are theſe Infants which you offer the …eed of this, Church that they may lawfully be here baptized by our Miniſtery?