The Divine Right of Church Government and Excommunication, Religious polemic · Chapter 21
CHAP. XXI.
Queſt. 17.
Divers other Arguments vindicated, as from Communion with the Church, ſubjection of Magiſtrates and Miniſters: The Ceremonially unclean from Matth. 18. Tell the Church.
Erastus. Chriſt hath given a power to his Church to looſe,Eraſtus. l. 6 c. 1. p. 317. Ergo, alſo to binde: The Church admitteth Believers into Communion; Ergo, they caſt out the impenitent. Eraſtus Anſwereth, Such a power as they have to Iooſe and to admit; ſuch and no other have they to binde and to caſt out; but it follovveth not, Ergo, it is a povver to debar from the Sacraments, and to Excommunicate: it is à Genere, and Speciem affirmativè.
Anſ. Eraſtus is miſtaken, and formeth the Argument as he pleaſeth. The Church pardoneth as a Church, and receiveth into her body believers to participate of Church-priviledges and Sacraments in a Church Communion; Ergo, the Church hath power to binde and caſt out from this ſame Church-Communion, thoſe that leaveneth the whole lump; as a City may admit a ſtranger to all the City priviledges; Ergo, the ſame City may for offences againſt the City, caſt out and deprive of City priviledges offenders: is this a Genere ad ſpeciem affirmativè? If the Church have a power to caſt out foreign from amongſt them a Member, we ſhallPage 318. Miniſters ſubject to the Magiſtrate. not contend for the name of Excommunication.
Erastus. The Miniſters have none, by whom in their office they can be corrected: But ſaith Eraſtus, If every ſoul be ſubject to the higher powers, how are Miniſters excepted? if Miniſters correct Miniſters, they play to others hands, ſpare thou the nails, and I ſhall ſpare the teeth.
Anſ. The Author doth not except Miniſters from civill ſubjection to Magiſtrates: But only he ſaith, In Eccleſiaſticall cenſures, the Magiſtrate is not to judge the Miniſters; becauſe a Miniſtery being an Eccleſiaſticall office, as ſuch, it is not liable to the civill power, only the Miniſters as they erre and ſin in their perſons, are liable to civill puniſhment, but not to Eccleſiaſticall, to be inflicted by the Magiſtrate. 2. Through the corruption of mens nature, every one may wink at anothers faults: It is true, But conſider if this ſlow from the nature of Gods Ordinance, to wit, that the Citizen obey the Laws of the City whereof he is a member. This is an Argument againſt any Senate, Parliament, Counſell of State, or War, or Ariſtocracy on earth: if of an hundreth Lords of the States Generall, one or ten play the Traytor to the State, who ſhall take order with them? Their Collegues and fellow-Senators. Partiall judging falls out here through mens corruption: ſpare thou the nails, and Ile ſpare the teeth: and from Eraſtus his way, (if you Argue from mens corruption) the ſame will follow: May not the Magiſtrate ſay to the Miniſter, Honour me before the people, and Preach not againſt the ſins of King and Court, and I will overſee and wink at thy Pluralities, non-reſidencies, ſoul-murthers? And may not the Miniſter ſay to the Magiſtrate, Let me be above all Civill Laws, and be Lord Prelat, and ſit on the necks of my Brethren, and defraud, oppreſſe, and I ſhall be ſilent and preach nothing againſt the idolatry, oppreſſions, Sodomy, uncleanneſſe of Magiſtrate and court.
Erastus. The Ceremonially unclean were excluded from theP. 318. 319. Sacraments; Ergo, far more the Morally unclean; But how (ſaith he) doth this follow? You Excommunicate none but the obſtinate; for thoſe that were Ceremonially unclean against their will, were excluded from the holy things; Ergo, far more he that is Morally unclean is to be debarred, though he be not obſtinate: How could Paul Excommunicate the incestuous man, 1 Cor. 5. he was never admoniſhed; or Peter Excommunicate Annanias, as you ſay?
Anſ. All Types or compariſons hold only in that for which the ſpirit of God doth bring them: Now the Ceremonially unclean were debarred from holy things, to ſignifie how much God deteſts filthineſſe. 2. Filthineſſe, polluting and leavening others: Now the leſſe will in any ſin, the leſſe ſin, and ſo the leſſe contagion to others, and therefore, where there is much infirmity, leſſe will, and no contumacy, it rather followeth, Ergo, there ſhould be no caſting out, no Excommunication.
Erastus. The Ceremonially unclean were not counted asPage 318. condemned and loſt, as your Excommunicated perſons were; they were admitted to Sacraments and the yearly expiation.
Anſ. This is Anſwered fully: The Excommunicated, becauſe Excommunicated, are to us in a way to be ſaved under Medicine, and not given for loſt, no more then thoſe to whom the Paſtors do threaten eternall wrath, or thoſe with whom we will not eat, becauſe of their inordinate walking are given for loſt, though conditionally they are in danger of damnation if they repent no…. 2. It is denyed that the Ceremonially unclean were admitted to the Sacraments. Philo Judaeus, no leſſe well verſed in Jewiſh Antiquities then Joſephus, Tract. de ſacerdotum honoribus, ſaith, Nulli homicidae licebat introire Templum: and Joſephus, l. 19. c. 7. ſaith, Herod Agrippa who beheaded James the brother of Chriſt▪ accuſed one Simon, who being a wicked man, went into the Temple, Q…ia Templum non niſi puris & dignis pateret: he witneſſeth the ſame, De Bel. Jadaic. l. 4. c. 13.
Erastus. The compariſon holdeth not between two ſins,P. 319, 320. which have both of them their own appointed puniſhment, but when both is puniſhed vvith one puniſhment: for it is like this, He that killed any imprudently, vvas compelled to flee to the City of Refuge, vvhichwhich vvas a leſſe ſin; Ergo, he that vvittingly and vvilfully▪ killeth, ſhould rather flye to that City; or▪ a drunken man is to pay a fine; Ergo, a bloody Robber is far rather to pay a fine.
Anſ. When the compariſon is made between a Ceremoniall breach, which is puniſhed with a puniſhment Ceremonially, or myſtically ſignificant; the compariſon to a morall ſin puniſhed with puniſhment reall, ſignified by that Ceremoniall puniſhment, is inconſequent: But when both ſins have the ſame puniſhment in the generall, in genere, it followeth not, that both ſhould have the ſame, in ſpe…i…, in nature, as a drunkard ought to be puniſhed with ſtripes; Ergo, parricide ought rather to be puniſhed with death; but not Ergo, a parricide ought rather to be puniſhed with ſtripes only: And ſo the conſequence is nought, the leper was puniſhed with being put out of the Camp ſeven dayes. It followeth not, Ergo, he that is defiled with the ſoul-leproſie of murther, ſorcery, ſhould far rather be puniſhed only with being put out of the camp ſeven dayes: Becauſe there is a higher puniſhment ordained for morall, then for a Ceremoniall tranſgreſſion, Ceteris paribus.
Erastus. If Peter Excommunicated Ananias, as you ſay for aPage 321. private, far more ſhould Chriſt have Excommunicated Iudas for a more haincus private ſin.
Anſ. We ſay not that Peter Excommunicated Ananias, but that his killing of him pointed at the puniſhment of wicked men in the boſome of the Church. 2. Gods puniſhing of ſinners both in the time when, and in the manner, with what kinde of puniſhment, is no rule to the Churches or Magiſtrates puniſhing. If God ſpare Joab all Davids time, it followeth not, Ergo, David the Magiſtrate ought alſo to ſpare him. If God command to kill the man that gathereth ſticks on the Sabbath: it followeth not, Ergo, the Church or Magiſtrate may do the like now, if any ſhould gather ſticks on the Sabbath.
Erastus. Let every man try himſelf, he ſpeaketh of the ſecrets ofPage 321. Conſcience. Eraſtus. That is (ſaith he) falſe, he speaketh of open ſins of Schiſmaticks, of thoſe that came drunk to the Table, and eat things Sacrificed to Idols.
Anſ. Eraſtus miſtaketh cloſe the Authors meaning, which is to ſpeak of the private and perſonall ſelf-examination that every Communicant is to enter in before he eat, not of the publike trying, 1 Cor. 5. men are to make a ſecret tryall even of publike ſins; ſo though the ſins were publike, yet was the tryall ſecret and perſonall, but did not exclude a publike examination by the Church, if need were.
Erastus. Though thoſe that come to the Supper profeſſe Repentance,Page 321. yet many hypocrites come: So Iſa. 1. thoſe Hypocrites might have ſaid, We teſtifie by our ſacrificing, that we have hands full of blood; If we deal Hypocritically or ſincerely, God who knoweth the hearts only muſt judge, men muſt judge the beſt. Eraſtus ſaith to the place, Iſa. 1. we have Anſwered before: But (ſaith he) if they had ſaid, It is true, our hands are full of blood, but we repent and are ſorry, O Prophets, pray to God to have mercy on us, and we ſhall pray? They could not be debarred.
Anſ. The man that was unreconciled to his brother might ſay all that at the Altar to the Prieſt. Yet Chriſt ſeeketh ſome more of him, he will not have him admitted to offer his gift, but he muſt leave it there, and give more then words to both God and the Prieſt; he muſt go and humble himſelf to his offended Brother, and be reconciled to him: And ſo the Prophet, Iſa. 1. ſeeketh more of them, ere he will have them to Sacrifice: Waſh you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings, ceaſe to do evil, learn to do well: All this is not done in a moment at the Altar.
Erastus. Tell the Church, that is, Tell the Magiſtrate, if he be notPage 322. a defender of a wicked Religion: For I ſuppoſe, 1. That Chriſt ſpeaketh of the Church in Iudea, which the Diſciples underſtood where to finde it: Now the Diſciples underſtood ſo well the Church, that they put no Queſtion to Chriſt of the matter. 2. Peter only ſaith, How oft ſhall my Brother offend and I forgive him? Now Peter and the Diſciples knew nothing of the ſpirituall Fraternity of the Gentiles before his Reſurrection: For they knew only Jews were their Brethren, and they were forbidden to preach to the Gentiles or Samaritans now. 3. Let him be to thee as an heathen and a Publican; that is, Let him be as a man moſt oppoſite to the Jews: Heathens and Publicans did grievouſly oppreſſe them, and made the Roman yoak very burdenſome to them.
Anſ. 1. Eraſtus doth ſuppoſe, (which is moſt falſe, as I haveThough there were no framed Chriſtian Church, yet Chriſt might ſay, Tell the Church. Anſwered before) that Chriſt ſpeaketh to Paul from heaven and Ananias alſo, of bearing the Name of Chriſt to the Gentiles: and Paul neither knew Name nor thing, Act. 26. 15, 16, &c. and 9. 15, 16, &c. He ſpeaketh to his Diſciples of the promiſe of the Father, and of the Teſtimony of the Goſpel they were to Preach, Luk. 24. 46, 47. &c. which they knew not till afterwards. And what was the uſe of the holy Ghoſt to be powred on them? Was not this one of the chief? Joh. 14, 26. He ſhall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatſoever I have ſaid unto you: Then Chriſt ſpake many things to them that they bothforgot, & knew not till the holy Ghoſt came upon them. And their not asking Queſtion, will not prove they underſtood all he ſpake, ſometimes they were afraid to ask him. 2. The Jewiſh and Chriſtian Church have not ſuch eſſentiall differences, but they knew by the ordinary notion of the word Church, a Convention that profeſſed the Doctrine of the Prophets, and of the Law and Goſpel. And what ſuch great difference is there between a brother, and a brother Iew and a Brother Gentile, as they behoved to underſtand the one, and be utterly ignorant of the other? And what neceſſity to reſtrict it to Iews only? Chriſt had often ſpoken to them of the incoming of the Gentiles, as Matth. 8. 11. Joh. 10. 16. Matth. 10. 18. Did the Diſciples know the Kings, Councels, Indicatures of the Gentiles, that Chriſt ſaid they ſhould be convented before? Matth. 10. 17, 18, 19 And becauſe Eraſtus is ſo confident that the word Church here is the Civill Magiſtrate: Let any Eraſtian teach me, what is meant by foreign Church, Matth. 16. 19. Is it the Civill Magiſtrate? Is the Civill Magiſtrate built on a Rock? Shall the Ports of Hell never prevail againſt the Civill Magiſtrate? Can no Magiſtrate make defection from the truth? And doth Eraſtus or his believe in their conſcience, that the Diſciples underſtood Chriſt, Matth. 16. (for he ſpake of both to the Diſciples) to ſpeak of the ſtability and ſtrength, and perſeverance of the Chriſtian Magiſtrate: And that the Ports of Hell ſhould never prevail againſt the Iewiſh Sanedrim and Church, which crucified the Lord of glory, and perſecuted his Apoſtles, and all profeſſing the Name of Ieſus to the death? 3. Heathen and Publican in generall, were names as oppoſite to Chriſtian Brethren as to Iewiſh Brethren, as I have proved before.
Erastus. The vvord Church to the Hebrevvs, ſignifieth eitherP. 323. 324 a multitude, or the Senate, or Magiſtrate, as Num. 35. Church is four times, Joſh. 20. Tvv…ce, Pſal. 82. Once: and it ſignifies the Magiſtrate. So vve ſay, the Empire hath done vvhat the Emperour vvith the States of the Empire hath done. So the Church or Convention think ſo, becauſe the chief amongſt them think ſo, the Common Wealth hath done this, becauſe the Senate hath done this.
Anſ. The word foreign is Num. 35. 12. But in all that Chapter foreign is not, but foreign: Now how this ſignifieth one Magiſtrate, which ever ſignifieth a collection or multitude of rulers, I leave to the learned: ſo Eraſt. faileth yet in his probation. 2. Suppoſe the word Church ſignifie the heads of the people, how ſhall Eraſtus prove that foreign ſignifieth the ſenate of Civill Magiſtrates, for in this Congregation were the Priests and Levites, eſpecially, that judge between blood and blood, voluntary or involuntary homicide, Deut. 17. …2, 13, 14. 2 Chr. 19. 8, 9. It is true alſo that the man that killed another unwittingly, was to be protected in the City of refuge, while he ſhould ſtand before the faces foreign of the Congregation, But let Eraſtus, and all who will have the Biſhop or the Pope the repreſentative Church, know that foreign the Congregation, ever, and alwayes be aPagninu…, Merc. in Theſaur. p. 994. collective word, as populus the people, ſignifieth a multitude, & never by Grammer, one ſingle man, hoc nomen (ſaith Pagnine) certum conventum▪ ſive cetum ſignificat, certum Collegium, it alwayes ſignifieth a ſoc…e…ie: as the Princes of the Congregation Num. 16. 2. all the Princes foreign in the Congregation, Exo. 34. 31. here is a number and a ſocietie, foreign ſaith Ariſtotle can be atributed to no fewer then to three at leaſt. Speak to all the Congregation of Iſrael foreign Exodus 12. 3. and the Congregations of peoples foreign ſhall compaſſe thee about, Pſal. 7. 8. Nor ſhall ſinners ſtand foreign in the Congregation of the juſt, Pſal. 1. 5. Thou hast made deſolate all my Congregation, Iob. 16, 7. 2. The word is from a root that ſignifieth to conveene and gather together foreign Therefore Iud. 14. 8. a ſwarme or a Congregation of Bees, is called foreign a Congregation. And that the word foreign Church ſince the world began, never ſignified one ſingle man, either King, Magistrate, Pope, or Prelate, But alwayes a multitude either of rulers or people, I appeal to Demoſthenes, Homer, Pho…illides, Heſiod, Lucian, Pluto, Ariſtotle, to Suid…, Stephanus, Scapula; or for the word, Cetus, Cong…egatio, to all Latine Authors, to the ſeventy interpreters in the Old Teſtament, to Hy…ronimus, all the Greek Fathers, and to the Evangeliſts and Apoſtles in the New Teſtament, to Act. 19. 32. Eph. 5. 23. Act. 8. 13. Rom. 16. 5. 1 Cor. 1. 2. 2 Cor. 1. 1. Gal. 1. 2. 1 Theſ. 1. 1. 2 Theſſ. 1. 1. Act. 15. 3, 4, 22. Act. 16. 5. Act. 14. 23. Rev. 1. 20. Rev. 2. 1. and for Pſal. 82. foreign there is a Congregation of Gods or Magiſtrates, and v. 6. All of you are Children of the moſt high, he ſpeaketh evidently of a multitude of Iudges. 3. Suppoſe the Empire be ſaid to do what the Senate, Parliament, or great Councell of the Empire or Kingdome doth: This will not prove that the word Church in either of the Originall Tongues Hebrew or Greek, doth ſignifie one man, ſo as Tell the Church, muſt be all one with, Tell one ſingle Magiſtrate, or, Tell one Prelate or one Pope, and he that will not hear the Magiſtrate, that is, the King, or one ſingle Magiſtrate alone, without any fellow Magiſtrates, he being a Chriſtian, is to be dealt with as an heathen, and a publican, and not as a Chriſtian brother: For what the King doth alone without his Senate, is never called the deed of the Senate, farre leſſe the act or deed of the whole Eccleſia, of the Kingdome, produce any ſhaddow of Grammer for this: Now to Eraſtus, Tell the Church, is all one with, Tell the ſingle Chriſtian Magiſtrate alone ſeparated from Fellow-judges, or Councell, Senate, Parliament, Eccleſiaſticall Aſſemblies, and if he hear not and obey not this one ſingle Chriſtian Magiſtrate, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican: For Eraſtus will have the Civill Magiſtrate, though the whole Church and Paſtors ſhould judge the contrary, to have power by vertue of his office to determine againſt Paſtors and Elders: Yea, by his office he is to command them to preach, and ſynodically to determine this and this, and what they determine they do, à et ſub Magiſtratu, under, and from this one ſingle Magiſtrate as his ſervants, inſtruments, Vicars and deputies, and therefore the Magiſtrate cannot ſentence in the name of Paſtors, Elders, when they are but his ſervants: And, 2. When he may by his office, do contrary to what they judge in conſcience ought to be done: So Tell the Church, to Eraſtus is, Tell the one individuall ſingle Magiſtrate, who by office may judge without, and contrary to the advice of all the Church Paſtors, Doctors, Elders, yea, people and all: Now though we grant, that what the Emperour doth as Emperour, and the Magiſtrate as Magiſtrate hath done, that the Empire, City, and Incorporation doth, (which yet is never true in the Church, which hath no King as a Church, ſave onelyonly the head and King Ieſus Chriſt) yet Erastus hath not proved, what the Emperour doth without, and contrary to the advice of all the Empire, that the Empire hath done that.
Erastus. Chriſt either underſtandeth by the Church the whole multitudePage 324. 325. of Ieruſalem, or then the Magiſtrates: But he underſtandeth not the multitude, 1. Becauſe Chriſt would not change the Government of heathens, farre leſſe of that which his Father had appointed in Iudea, in which the people did never Governe: Yea, the Apoſtles to their death did nothing againſt Moſes his Law, and how they take Chriſt to ſpeak of a Church to be founded of new after his reſurrection who beleeved not he ſhould die and riſe againe; and after his reſurrection knew not what a kingdome, whether worldly, or ſpirituall, he was to …ave, cannot be conceived.
Anſ. 1. Many will deny the Major, for he underſtood the rulers of the Chriſtian Church, not excluding the conſent of the Chriſtian Church of beleevers in the matter of Excommunication. 2. I deny that Chriſt doth here re-eſtabliſh a Synedry, and bid them Tell the Scribes and Phariſees, and thoſe that were to crucifie himſelfe, and to perſecute the Apoſtles to the death. Chriſt knew thoſe to be miſerable healers of ſcandals betweene brother and brother. 2. He knew this Sanedrim to be the Diſciples of Chriſts capitall enemies, he warned the Diſciples to beware of the leaven of their corrupt Doctrine, he prophecied this Sanedrim ſhould be deſtroyed as a degenerated plant, that his heavenly father had not planted, and was it like Chriſt would direct them a periſhing and degenerate remedie againſt ſcandals, that he would have removed by his Church, even till the end of the world? 2. It is moſt falſe, that the Apoſtles did keep to death the inſtitutions and ordinances of Moſes, Act. 15. They abrogated all the ceremoniall Law, except that of blood and things ſtrangled, and Paul ſaid, he that would amongſt the Galathians be circumciſed, was fal…e from Chriſt, ſee Col. 2. Gal. 4. Heb. 13. and elſewhere the contrary. The Government was now to expire with Chriſts death and aſcenſion, in ſo farre as it was pedagogicall. 3. Chriſt ſpake often of his Kingdome to them, and they underſtood nothing but an earthly and temporall Kingdome; and that they underſtood perfectly: All this time the Church of Pastors, Teachers, Elders, Deacons, beleevers in Chriſt, is denied; Let Eraſtus anſwer, when Chriſt ſaid Mat. 16. He would build his Church on a rock unpregnable and inſuperable to hell: If the Apoſtles underſtood a Church to be founded after the reſurrection, and when Chriſt ſaid, Loe I am with you to the end of the world, if Chriſt meant not he would give his preſence to the Chriſtian Church, not then founded, for even after his reſurrection they dreamed of an earthly Kingdome, Act. 1. and that our divines do rightly expound that place, I am with you, All the faithfull Paſtors, Doctors, Church-officers and beleevers to the Lords ſecond appearance, is clear.
Eraſtus. Christ bade, Tell that Church which hath power to conveenePage 326. the offender before it, examine Witneſſes judicially, cognoſce and give ſentence, but in Chriſts time the multitude could not doe this.
Anſ. Ergo, the Church hath a ſpirituall judicature: This is forThere was no more a right conſtituted Sanedrim in Chriſts time, then a Chriſtian Church. u…. 2. Nor had the Sanedrim the power in all offences, as Eraſtus would make the world beleeve, for it was but a ſhadow at this time void of power, and uſed what power they had againſt Chriſt and the Goſpel. Nor needeth Eraſtus to prove that by the Church the multitude cannot be underſtood; though he cannot exclude them from their owne part in Church Government, both in conſenting, and in withdrawing from the Excommunicated.
Erastus. But, Tell the Church is all one vvith this, AppointPage 327. ſome who in the name of the Church may mannage the buſineſſe; but how prove they this? Then Chriſt bade, Tell the Elders that then were, elſe he did not accommodate himſelfe to their underſtanding to whom he ſpake; when he was to teach hovv our ſacrifices pleaſeth God, be biddeth us firſt be reconciled to our brother, and then ſacrifice, yet he knevv that ſacrifices vvere to be aboliſhed, but by Analogie he vvould teach us, vvhat he requireth vvhen he ſaith, he vvill have mercy, and not ſacrifice; Ergo, by your ovvn confeſsion to tell the Church is to tell the Sanedrim, for there vvas then no Church but the multitude.
Anſ. 1. (Tell the Church) cannot in any ſenſe, have ſuch a meaning, as Appoint Elders and tell them; for then (Tell the Sanedrim) muſt have this meaning, ſet up a ſound Sanedrim, according as Moſes appointed, and tell the Sanedrim. The Sanedrim in its right conſtitution and due power as the Law of Moſes required it, was not to be had at this time: Herod had killed the Sanedrim, the Romans made High Prieſts from yeere to yeere againſt the inſtitution, the power of life and death in the civill Sanedrim was now none at all. The Scepter was departed from Iudah, thoſe that ſate in Moſes Chaire corrupted all, ſo the right Sanedrim was no more now to be had, then a Chriſtian Church not yet erected. Again, Tell the Church, preſuppoſeth a conſtituted Church, and therefore cannot include a command to erect a new mould▪ 2. Tell the Elders of the Chriſtian Church, may as well be meant in theſe words, Tell the Church, as the Iewiſh Church can be underſtood. 3. The word Church, and to conveene offenders, hear Witneſſes, give out ſentence, were all plaine Language to the diſciples, though they knew not the frame of the Goſpell Church, as yet, Chriſt being now teaching an ordinance of a Church, and the cenſure of Excommunication that was not to fall under practiſe, while Chriſt ſhould aſcend to heaven; and therefore though this Church was not, yet it followeth not, that the Lord Ieſus ſpeaketh of the Sanedrim. 4. Say that he meane the Sanedrim; Ergo, ſay we, he ſpeaketh nothing of the Chriſtian Magiſtrate. 1. Becauſe there was no Magiſtrate now, but Iewiſh Magiſtrates as Eraſtus cannot deny. 2. Becauſe this Sanedrim that gained ſoules of offending brethren, was Eccleſiaſticall, not civill. 3. By proportion, and Analogie Chriſt muſt underſtand the Church of Chriſtians, though the Sanedrim was to be removed ſhortly.
Erastus. It is a great controverſie, vvho are to be choſenPage 328. out of the bodie of the Church to excommunicate judicially.
Anſ. The controverſie was moved partly by Eraſtus, partly by Morellius, not in the reformed Churches.
Erastus. Some ſay the Magiſtrate ſhould chuſe the Elderspage 329. at leaſt at the firſt, even though the Church doe not conſent. But how can they ſit in place of the Church and judge, who were againſt the will and minde of the Church choſen to be Judges? for though the Magiſtrate be a chiefe Member of the Church, yet to Tell the Church, is not to Tell the Magiſtrate (as you ſay) but to Tell the whole Church, and it is no …xcuſe that the Magiſtrate doth but once chuſe the Elders, for if hee have no right nor Law from God to doe it, he can never doe it, and if he have Law from God to doe it, he ought alwayes to doe it.
Anſ. Here Eraſtus reaſoneth againſt ſome Au…hor that inclineth to the way of Morellius.
If there bee no formed Church endued with knowledge and diſcretion to chuſe their owne Elders, if there be godly men fit to be choſen, they are to convene and chuſe from amongſt them Elders, the godly Magiſtrate is to joyne his Vote and Power, becauſeIunius …nim…. in Bellar. d… …o… ci…. l. 1. c. 12. Not. 18. de…iente conjunctione Magiſtratus, poteſt a liquid Eccleſia extra ordi…em …ace…e, quod ordinario non poteſt, & contra deficiente Eccleſià à ſuo officio, poteſt Magiſtratus extra ordinem procurar… ut Eccleſia ad officium r… de…, id … nim juris communis eſt, extraordinariis ma…is remedia etiam extra ordinem adhiberi poſſe. Page 329, 330. there is a Church not yet conſtitute, it is now Perturbatus aut corruptus Eccleſiae ſtatus, and I ever judged it a golden ſaying of that great Divine Fran. Iunius, that when the Magiſtrate will not concurre, the Church in that extraordinary caſe may doe ſomewhat, which ordinarily they cannot doe; and againe when the Church doth not their duty, the Magiſtrate in that caſe may doe ſomething more then ordinary, to cauſe the Church doe their dutie; for its a common La…, to ills out of order, remedies out of the road way may be applyed. So if the Prieſts and Levites be corrupt, Iehoſhapaht and Hezekiah and Ioſiah may reforme: And therefore though the godly Magiſtrate, jure communi, by the common Law of Nature, imploy his power to appoint Elders, all Errors and confuſions in the Church are in ſome meaſure out of order; yet it followeth, that jure proprio, and ordinarily he ſhould alwayes doe this. 2. Elders are not properly Repreſentators of the Church to me, while I be better informed, for power of feeding and ruling is immediately given by Ieſus Chriſt to the Elders, and not by the interveening mediation of the Church, but onelyonly by their deſignation to the office; th…s power is given by the people. 3. The Magiſtrate as the Magiſtrate, and by vertue of his place, is neither a Member, farre leſſe a chiefe Member of the Church, for then all Magiſtrates ſhould be Members of the Church, even Heathen Kings and Rulers, which no man can ſay. The Chriſtian Magiſtrate as a Chriſtian is a Member of the Church. But that is nothing to helpe Eraſtus.
Erastus. Becauſe the multitude can doe nothing in order, therefore (ſay they) they have power to chooſe Elders to whom belongeth the power of Excommunication. But how prove they this? Though a company vvanting a Magiſtrate have this power, ſhall it follovv, that a company to vvhom God hath given a godly Magiſtrate ſhould have this povver? But becauſe confuſion vvould follovv, therefore Elders are to be choſen; Ergo, Such Elders as make up your Presbyterie, à genere ad ſpeciem affirmativè nulla eſt conſequutio.
Anſ. 1. Not only from neceſſity of eſchewing confuſion, but from the poſitive Ordinance of God, we infer Presbyters; we do not own any ſuch conſequence: Prela…es and Papiſts argue for a Monarchy in the Church, from order: we know no creatures of the like frame: Eraſtus is for a Biſhop, he may ſo argue, not we: We finde Chriſt hath placed ſuch organs in his body, as Eph. 4. 11. 12. 1 Cor. 12. 28. 1 Tim. 5. 17. 1 Tim. 3. 1, 2, &c Act. 6. 1, 2, &c. and 14. 23. Ergo, they ought to be, for we think the Church cannot govern it ſelf. 2. If the Church wanting a Magiſtrate as the Apoſtolick Church did, have power to chuſe Presbyters, and by a Divine Law: how dare Eraſtus ſay, That it followeth not, when the Church hath a godly Magiſtrate, ſhe ſhould keep the ſame power? Can the godly Magiſtrate when he cometh into the Church, take any Divine power from the Church? Is the Magiſtrate given to the Church as a Nurſe-father to preſerve that power that Christ hath given to his Spouſe? or is he given as a ſpoiler at noon▪day, to take to himſelf the power, and make the Ambaſſadors of Chriſt, his Ambaſſadors and Servants to preach in his Name; whereas before when they had no Magiſtrate, Paſtors did preach only in the Name of Ieſus Chriſt?
Erastus. Sure the Lord hath concredited to the Magiſtrate, thePage 330. Command and all power of externall Government, ſo as he hath ſubjected not only Civill, but alſo Sacred things to his power, that he may manage the one according to the Word of God, the other according to Iuſtice and equity, which ſince it is Commanded in the Old Teſtament, and practiſed by all holy Iudges and Kings, and we finde it not changed in the New Teſtament; We juſtly ſay that the Church that hath a godly Magiſtrate, cannot by Gods will chuſe a new Senate or Presbytery, to exerciſe publikely Iudgement; for God hath not armed▪ ſubjects againſt their Magiſtrates: Nor hath he Commanded them to take any part of their power from them and give it to others, and to ſubject them to externall Dominion.
Anſ. Sure the Lord concredited to the Prieſt, not to King Vzziah to burn incenſe, and to the Prieſts to rebuke Vzziah and command him to deſiſt; and this is no leſſe externall Governing of the houſe of God, quoad hoc, in this particular then Excommunication: for to Excommunication on the Churches part, as Excommunication, is no more required, but that the ſcandalous and murthering Magiſtrate ſhould not come to the Table of the Lord, or remain in the ſociety and Church-fellowſhip of the Saints as a Member of the Church. Now if the Magiſtrate obey not, the Church as the Church can uſe no bodily coaction or reſtraint to hinder the Magiſtrate to obtrude himſelf upon the holy things of God: though other, either fellow-Magiſtrates, or the inferior Magiſtrates, (if the party …xcommunicated be the ſupream Magiſtrate) or, the Parliament may and ought to uſe their power as Magiſtrates, by the ſword to hinder the holy things of God to be prophaned; for I think it eaſie to prove, if this were a fit place, that inferior Magiſtrates are eſſentially Mag…ſtrates, and immediatly ſubject to the King of Kings for the due uſe of the ſword, as the ſupream Magiſtrate or King: And therefore there is no more externall dominion uſed in Excommunicating a bloody and ſcandalous Magiſtrate, then in rebuking and threatning him: Now Eraſtus granteth, That Paſtors may rebuke and threaten according to the Word of the Lord, even Magiſtrates and Kings. 2. If becauſe Iudges in the Old Teſtament, as Eli and Samuel Sacrificed, and we finde this not changed in the New, and nothing extraordinary in this, Miniſters in the New Teſt…ment may do the ſame: Then the Iuſtice of Peace, and Mayors of Cities, and every conſtable, may by vertue of their office Preach the Word and diſpenſe the Sacraments, which is againſt the word, Heb. 5. 7. Mat. 9. 38. & 10. 5. & 28. 19, 20. Joh. 21. 20, 21. Rom. 10. 14, 15. 3. Where doth Eraſtus reade in the New Teſtament, that Kings may not write Canonick Scripture, as King David did, and build a Typicall Temple to the Lord as Solomon did, and give out Laws of Divine inſtitution as Moſes did? Kings in the Old Teſtament did theſe, and he can finde the contrary no where written. 4. If the Church as the Church cannot chuſe a Senate of Elders toRebuking of Princes argue no leſſe juriſdiction, then all that the Presbytery doth. Govern themſelves without wronging the Magiſtrate; how did the Apoſtolick Church without ſo much as asking advice of the Civill Magiſtrate, ſet up a new Goſpel, new Sacraments, new officers, a new Government: Did the Lord Ieſus and the Goſpel teach them to ſpoil Ceſar? Chriſt had ſaid the contrary, Give unto Ceſar thoſe things that are Ceſars. 5. To ſubject Magiſtrates to Excommunication, is no more to ſubject them to externall dominion, then to ſubject them (as Eraſtus doth) to rebukes, warnings and threatnings; for the former hath no more of coaction, of dominion, or of coercive power, then the latter: yea, if to ſubject Kings to the rebukes of the Miniſters of Chriſt, be nothing but to ſubject them to internall and ſpirituall dominion; no more is ſuſpenſion from the Sacraments and Excommunication, any thing but internall and ſpirituall dominion. In this ſenſe, that neither of theſe two are bodily dominions, no more then rebuking of Kings. 2. Yet both theſe work upon the conſcience in a ſpirituall way, for the humiliation of the King, and putting him to ſhame and fear, 2 Theſ. 3. 14, 15. that his ſpirit may be ſaved in the day of the Lord, as rebukes do work, 1 Tim. 5. 20. Gal. 2. 11. 1 Cor. 5. 6. Iude ver. 23. Yea, to ſay to a King, He ſhall be buried with the buriall of an Aſſe, as Ieremiah did, cap. 22. And to call the Rulers, Princes of Sodome, Iſa. 1. 10. And King Herod a Fox, and Rulers and Princes Dogs, Pſal. 22. ver. 16. and Bulls and Lyons, ver. 12. 13. and Wolves ravening for the prey, Ezek. 22. 27. putteth no leſſe ſhame upon Magiſtrates before men, and ſo externall dominion on them and over them, then Excommunication and debarring from the Seals of the Covenant doth. Now Eraſtus ſubjecteth Magiſtrates to rebukings, threatnings and reprehenſions no leſſe then we do. Well, Eraſtus will have one ſingle Miniſter to exerciſe externall dominion over the Magiſtrates, becauſe this is manifeſt out of the Word: but becauſe he would flatter Princes as much as he can, he denies that a Colledge of Elders may rebuke the Magiſtrate, or convene him before them, though he were the moſt flagitious Prince that lived; and yet one man may ſummon him before the Tribunall of Chriſt, and charge him to come to hear a Sermon, and rebuke him in the face of the Congregation, and denounce the Iudgements of God againſt him openly. Is not this the Lord arming one ſingle man againſt the Magiſtrate, to put ſhame and confuſion on him for his ſins? And if many Paſtors convened ſhould do this, This were to arm the ſubjects againſt the Magiſtrate, and to take the power from him that God hath given to him, as Erastus talketh.