The Divine Right of Church Government and Excommunication, Religious polemic · Chapter 16
CHAP. XVI.
Queſt. 12.
Whether Eraſtus proveth validly the power of the Civill Magiſtrate in matters Eccleſiaſtick?
BEfore I proceed further, it is needfull to examine Eraſtus his doctrineEraſtus l. 3. c. 1. Page 160. The power of the civill Magiſtrate. of the civill Magiſtrate.
Erastus. As there is a twofold governing, ſo of neceſſity there muſt be two ſupreame Governours. God is the governour of the inward man, the Magiſtrate of the outward man, it is abſurd there ſhould be two ſupream Governours of the ſame Government, ſo as the one neither be a part of the other, nor Adminiſter all in the name of the other.
Anſ. 1. Becauſe a man conſiſteth of a ſpirituall part, a conſcience and ſoul, and of an externall viſible part; in which he exerciſeth viſible and externall acts of worſhip; yet ſpirituall, another, as he is a civill Agent, therefore there is a neceſſity there be no ſupream externall Governours under the one ſupream Lord of Heaven and earth; one that teacheth and informeth the minde, and ruleth by the ſword whole man, as he is a part of a civill ſociety, in all his civil actions, and this is the Magiſtrate; another that governeth him, as he is a member of a ſpirituall and ſupernaturall ſociety, and exerciſeth externall ſpirituall actions, in reference to God & in the ſubjection of his conſcience to him, and this is either a Prieſt, Levite or Prophet in the Old Teſtament, or Paſtor, Teacher or Elder in the New Teſtament: and it is abſurd, that there ſhould not be two Governors; one over man in relation to his conſcience and walking with God, and his brethren as Members of a ſpirituall ſociety, called a Paſtor or Teacher; another in relation to his civill actions of Peace and juſtice to his brother, as he is a Member of a civill ſociety, called a Magiſtrate.
2. It is an abſurd thing, for Eraſtus to fancie God, and theMen have need of two ſorts of Governours. Magiſtrate, two ſupream Governors, when the Magiſtrate is not ſupream, but a meer Miniſter and vaſſall ſubordinate to God, the only moſt high. 3. It is as abſurd to imagine God hath given no Rulers, Teachers, and guides to govern a man as he is a ſpirituall Agent obliged to worſhip God, and to be edified in the faith, but only the civill Magiſtrate; then hath Chriſt left no ſhepherd to his redeemed flock but the Civill Magiſtrate, and aſcending on high he hath left no gifts, no Paſtors and Teachers, for the gathering of the Saints to the end of the world, when we ſhall meet all in the unity of the Faith; but only the Magiſtrate contrary to Chriſts end, in aſcending to heaven, Eph. 4. 11. Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 1, 2. and contrary to Chriſts compaſſion to ſouls, who is moved, that his ſheep want ſhepherds; for there ſouls, rather then Magiſtrates, Matth. 9. 36, 37, 38. therefore the opinion of Eraſtus is like the Divinity of Epicures or unchriſtian Moraliſts, who appoint Magiſtrates to Governe the externall man, but no Teachers to take care of their ſouls, or to lead them to heaven.
Erastus. As there is one meaſure by which we meaſure things ofMagiſtracie and Miniſtery, both ſupream in their on we kinde. divers natures, as cloath of linnen, of ſilke, of ſilver, of gold, and there is one weight by which we meaſure things weighable, though of moſt divers natures; ſo is there one viſible diſpenſation and governing of all viſible things, though there be ſome Lawes for the City, ſome for the Countrey, ſome for the Schooles, as there be no neceſſity of divers rulers, and Law-givers, to the City, to the Countrey, to the Schooles; ſo is there no neceſſity that there ſhould be any other then the Magiſtrate, who ſhould guide things civill and prophane, things of Schooles, and things ſacred.
Anſ. This man ſpeaketh rather like a Morall, or a naturall Phyſitian, then a Divine; the argument were good, if men had no ſouls, for then they ſhould not need any to watch for their ſouls, as the ſpirit of God ſaith they do, Heb. 13. 17. and he with one ſtroak, taketh away Paſtors and Teachers, and maketh the King the onelyonly Paſtor and Teacher in all his Kingdomes. 2. We know ſimilitudes, eſpecially not warranted with Scripture, proveth nothing, and this may well conclude there ſhould be no ruler at all, nor any Lawgiver on earth, but God only, and let every man do what ſeemes good in his owne eyes, for Gods will is the only meaſure and rule of all things. And 3. If all men were to be ruled the ſame way, it might have colour. But it is knowen, that all Churches, as members of a Common-wealth, are ruled one way, in giving to every man his own, & in not doing violence one to another; But in keeping peace and policy, as all men do in all ſocieties on earth, and ſo they have need of Magiſtrates. 2. Another way they are conſidered as Members of a ſociety, called from the ſtate of ſinne, to Grace and Glory, and ſo they have no leſſe need of teachers for the guiding of their ſouls, Mat. 9. 36, 37, 38. Eph. 4. 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. Act. 8. 31. Heb. 13. 17. 1 Theſ. 5. 12, 13. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Act. 20. 28, 29. Math. 28. 19, 20. Phil. 1. 1. and by name of the Elders of the Church, Act. 4. 5. 23. and 11. 3. and 14. 23. and 15. 2, 4, 6, 22, 23. and 16. 4. and 20. 28. and 21. 18. and 22. 5. Tit. 1. 5. and that the Magiſtrate ſhould rule the houſe of God, is againſt the word.
Erastus. One Common-wealth can have but one ſupream Magiſtrate,Pag. 160. 161. 162. a body with two heads is monſtrous, therefore Papiſts almoſt by this argument, doe appoint one Pope head of the Church. There cannot be two powers of two ſwords, both ſupream and of equall power: But the Church power muſt be ſubject to the more excellent, the power of the Magiſtrate. But becauſe he cannot do all by himſelfe, he GovernethEraſtus alloweth no Government, but Popedome and Monarchy. the Schooles by Doctors, the Cities by inferiour judges, the Church by Paſtors, and all according to right and juſtice, and the word of God, and that where the Magiſtrate and ſubjects are Chriſtians; but where the Magiſtrate is of a falſe Religion, two different Governments are tollerable.
Anſ. 1. This argument deſtro…eth all Ariſtocracy, Parliaments, and Senates, where many good men have equall power, and ſo the Common-wealth may not have 70. Heads and Rulers of equall power, which is againſt the Scripture, which commandeth ſubjection to every Civill ordinance of man, as lawfull, Rom. 13. 1, 2, 3. Tit. 3. 1, 2, 3. 1 Pet. 2. 13, 14. Deut. 1. 16. It maketh no Government lawfull, but Popedome and Monarchy in both Church and ſtate. 2. It is to beg the queſtion, that there cannot be two ſupream powers, both ſupream in their owne kinde, for they are both ſupream in their owne ſphere: as Paſtors diſpenſe Sacraments and Word, without ſubjection to the Magiſtrate as they are Paſtors, and Magiſtrates uſe the Sword without dependence on Paſtors, and yet is there mutuall and reciprocall ſubjection of each to other in divers conſiderations: Paſtors as ſubjects in a Civill relation, are ſubject to the Magiſtrate, as every ſoul on earth is, and Magiſtrates as they have ſouls and ſtand in need to be led to heaven, are under Paſtors and Elders. For if they hear not the Church, and if they commit inceſt, they are to be caſt out of the Church, Mat. 18. 1 Cor. 5. Rom. 16. 17. 1 Theſ. 3. 14. 15. If they walk inordinately, we are to eſchew their company, if they deſpiſe the Miniſters of Chriſt, they deſpiſe him who ſent them, Math. 10. 40. Luk. 10. 16. God reſpecteth not the perſons of Kings, and we finding them not excepted, if the preachers of the Goſpel be to all beleevers foreign over them in the Lord, 1 Theſſ. 5. 12. 1 Tim. 5. 17. call it authority, or no Authority, they have ſome overſight over the Chriſtian Magiſtrate; and here be two ſupreams, two higheſt powers, one Eccleſiaſticall, another Civill; nor ſhould any deny Moſes to be above Aaron, as the ſupream judge; Aaron not having the power of the ſword, as Moſes had, and Aaron muſt be above Moſes, in ſacrificing, in burning incenſ… ▪, in judging between the clean and the unclean, which Moſes could not do. 2. The excellency of the Civill power in regard of earthly honour and eminency in the fifth Commandment, above the ſervants of God in the Miniſtry of Chriſts ſpirituall Kingdom, which is not of this world, we heartily acknowledge. 3. That the King Preacheth and diſpenſeth the Sacraments by Paſtors, as by his ſervants, is wilde Divinty: Paſtors then muſt have Magiſtraticall Authority and power of the ſword committed to them, as the Deputies and inferior judges of the Lords of the Gentiles, which Chriſt forbade his Diſciples, Luk. 22. 25, 26, 27. For the ſervant muſt have ſome power committed to him from the principall cauſe in that wherein he is a ſervant. 4. What reaſon is there, that where the Magiſtrate is a Heathen, two Governments, and ſo two heads in one body ſhould be? for then there is and muſt be a Church-Government, where the Magiſtrate is a Heathen, and that in the hands of the Church: if then the Magiſtrate turn Chriſtian, muſt he ſpoile the Church of what was her due before?
Erastus. The Lord Jeſus changed nothing in the New Teſtamentp. 162. 163. of that moſt wiſe Government in the Iewiſh Church, now there all Government was in the hands of Moſes: I ſay not, that the Magiſtrate might ſacrifice, or do what was proper to the Priests, but he did dispoſe and order what was to be done by the Prieſts.
Anſ. Yea, but Eraſtus ſaith, the Magiſtrate may diſpenſe word and Sacraments in the New Teſtament, if he had leiſure: Why might he not ſacrifice in the Old Teſtament alſo? 2. Paſtors do by their Doctrine and Diſcipline, order and regulate all callings in their Moralls of right and wrong, of juſt and unjuſt; yet is not the Paſtor the only Governour in all externals. 3. If Chriſt changed nothing of the Iewiſh Government, we have all their excluſion of men out of the Campe, their ſeparating of the unclean, and their politick and Ceremoniall Lawes, which is unſound Divinity.
Erastus. Moſes Ruled all before there was a Prieſthood inſtituted.Pag. 164. 165. 167. God, Exod. 4. Numb. 12. calleth Aaron to his office and maugurateth him by Moſes; nor doth he command him to exerciſe a peculiar judgement, when he declareth his office to him, and when Aaron dieth, Moſes ſubſtituteth Eleazar in his place. Ioſhua c. 3, 4 teacheth the Prieſts what they ſhould doe, and commanded them to circumciſe Iſrael: ſo did Samuel, David, Solomon, and in the time of the Maccabees it was ſo.
Anſ. Moſes was once a Prophet and Iudge both; Ergo, ſo it may be now, it followeth not, except Moſes as a Magiſtrate did reveale what was the Prieſthood: What Aaron and Eleazer his ſonnes might doe, by as good reaſon Moſes, David, Solomon, Ioſhua, as Magiſtrates wrote Canonick Scripture and prophecied. Then may Magiſtrates as Magiſtrates build new Temples typicall to God, give new Laws, write Canonick Scripture, as theſe men did by the Spirit of prophecy no doubt, not as Magiſtrates; for why, but they might ſacrifice as Magiſtrates, and why ſhould Moſes rather have committed the Prieſthood, and the ſervice of the Tabernacle due to him as a Magiſtrate, ſo to Aaron and his ſonnes, as it ſhould be unlawfull to him as a King, and unlawfull to Vzziah to burn incenſe, and to ſacrifice, and to doe the office of the Prieſt? If the Magiſtrate as the Magiſtrate doe all that the Prieſts are to doe as Prieſts, and that by a ſupream principle, and radicall power in him, he ought not to caſt off that which is proper to him as a Magiſtrate, to take that which is leſſe proper, he caſteth the care and ruling of ſouls on the Prieſts, and reſerveth the leſſer part to himſelf, to rule the bodies of men with the Sword, all theſe are ſufficiently anſwered before.
Erastus. The King of Perſia, Ezra 7. appointed Iudges to judge the people and teach them, but there is no word of Excommunication, or any Eccleſiaſtick puniſhment, but of death, impriſonment, fines; nor did Nehemiah puniſh the falſe Prophets with any other puniſhment. Ioſephus ſpeaketh nothing of it, nor Antiochus.
Anſ. I ſhew before that there is for…eiting, and ſeparation from the Congregation, Ezra 10. 8. foreign he ſhall be ſeparated from the Church. 2. If the King of Perſia appointed men to judge and teach the people, why ſhould he deny any judicature at all? 3. Where ever Ioſephus ſpeaketh of the judging of the Prieſts, as he doth antiq. l. 11. c. 7. ant. l. 11. c. 8. l. 12. c. 9. he hinteth at this.
Erastus. Chriſt diſchargeth his Diſciples to exerciſe dominion.Page 171. Chriſt would not condemne the adulterous woman, nor judge between the brethren, Luke 12. Paul calleth Miniſters diſpenſators, ſtewards, Peter forbiddeth a dominion.
Anſ. Let Eraſtus be mindfull of this himſelfe, who yet ſaith, that the Magiſtrate may both judge, alſo (if he have time) diſpence the Word and Sacraments; if then the Magiſtrate by his office may preach and diſpenſe the Sacraments, who made him a judge and a Ruler? Will this ſati…fie mens conſcience; The Magiſtrate as the Magiſtrate may play the Miniſter; but the Miniſter may not play the Magiſtrate: Now as Eraſtus ſaith, the Miniſter in holy things, is his ſervant called by him; may not the Miniſter be called by him to the Bench alſo? Eraſtus; Eli and Samuel, were both Prieſts and Iudges, and ſo to Eraſtus they are not inconſiſtent. 2. Miniſters ought not to uſurpe the civill ſword; Ergo, they have no power of governing by the ſword of the Spirit, it followeth not, the contrary is evident, 1 Theſ. 5. 12. 1. Tim. 5. 17. 1 Cor. 12. 28. Rom. 12. 7, 8.
Erastus. Peter Martyr ſaith, Com. 1 Sam. 8. Thoſe that live wickedly, may be corrected by the Magiſtrate. But Papiſts give one civill Eccleſiaſtick power to the Pope, and another to the Magiſtrate, whereas the civill Magiſtrate is ſufficient enough.
Anſ. Pet. Martyr 1 Cor. 5. expreſly aſſerteth Excommunication, and acknowledgeth a Presbyterie of Paſtors and Seniors, or Elders, Peter Martyr condemneth the uſe of both ſwords in the Pope, and ſaith it is ſufficient that the Magiſtrate have the Sword.Page 173.
Erastus. Chriſt ſaith, my Kingdom is not of this world, that is, it is not pollitick, externall, viſible, for Chriſt reigneth in the world, but his Government is inviſible, and ſpirituall in the Word, and the Spirit.
Anſ. Chriſt denieth only that his Kingdome is of this World, inChriſts Kingdome how not of this World. regard it is not holden up by the civill ſword of men, or Magiſtrates, as Erastus doth dreame, who maketh the Magiſtrate with his club to be the onelyonly Catholick and principall Ruler in all Chriſts courts; which Chriſt refuteth, when he ſaith, If my Kingdome were of this world, mine owne would fight for me. Now Eraſtus will have no weapon, but the Magiſtrates ſword to hold out, and caſt out all offenders out of Chriſts Kingdom; but it is falſe, that Chriſts Kingdom is not politicall, externall and viſible; this is to deny that Chriſt hath a viſible Church: Sure exhorting, rebuking, cenſuring, withdrawing from the ſcandalous, excommunication, are viſible externally, and in a politick ſpirituall way exerciſed by Chriſt in his Ambaſſadors: for externall and ſpirituall are not oppoſed, nor are politicall and ſpirituall oppoſed, as Eraſtus dreameth, and therefore this is a non ſequitur of Eraſtus: His Kingdom is not of this world; Ergo, it is not externall.
Erastus. When Pompeius invaded and poſſeſſed Iudea, and Gabinius Cap. 2. l. 3. 176, 177, 179.having overcome Alexander, had changed the ſtate of Iudea, the Phariſees did reigne wholly at Ieruſalem. The Kingly power was removed and Ariſtocracy ſet up, Ioſeph. bel. Iud. l. 1. c. 6. Ioſeph. antiq. l. 14. c. 10. foreign: The Synedrie for the moſt part, had its owne authority vnderunder Hyrcanus, and under Archilaus it was more fully reſtored, as is cleer by the Evangeliſts and Ioſephus. Claudius in the tenth year after Chriſts death, ſetteth forth an Edict, foreign; Ioſeph. Ant. lib. 19. Titus Veſpaſianus promiſed the ſame thing to them.
Anſ. Will then Eraſtus have Chriſt, Mat. 18. to reſtore the power of the Sanedrim, in gaining a loſt brother; that is to cite him before the Roman Iudges: But 1. the Romans made high Prieſts from yeere to yeere, did Chriſt acknowledge the Sanedrim to be a reſtored Iudicature in this? 2. Say that the Sanedrim in ſacris, in in the holy things of God, had its full power, the Romans not impeding them; hath any man a face to deny, but Phariſees corrupted both Law, Goſpell, Sanedrim and all, and doth Chriſt eſtabliſh their moſt corrupt government; eſpecially when they ſet themſelves againſt the Meſſiah? Ceſar or Pompeius could give the Sanedrim no more then it had before they were ſubdued; but before they were ſubdued, the Sanedrim was changed and corrupted. 3. This is to beg the queſtion, to ſay they kept the power of the Sword: For 1. We utterly deny that by Gods Law they ever had any ſuch power, and forſooth, becauſe the High-Prieſts ſervant ſmote our Saviour on the face, and they ſcourged and impriſoned the Apoſtles; What then? therefore the Sanedrim had the Law of God for it, and Aaron and his ſonnes might beat, ſcourge, impriſon, and kill, as they killed Steven, without Law or warrant, (except the Law that they had from the Roman Emperours, for which cauſe I judge their Sanedrim was then a mixed Judicature,) ſurely this is a vaine conſequence. 4. It is like enough Claudius and Tiberius both, gave them liberty of their own Religion, Ceremonies and cuſtomes at their pleaſure, and that is much for us, the adverſary ſo do reaſon from a corrupt, unjuſt and wicked practice to infer a Law.
Eraſtus. I have ſolidly proved, there were not two diſtinct juriſdictions;Pag. 179. but that the Magiſtrate Governed all. I deny not that the Magiſtrate took counſell at thoſe that were skilled in the Law. And I have proved that the Sanedrim in Christs time, when he spake theſe words, had the power of the ſword, in things pertaining to Religion.
Anſ. Let another man praiſe thee, ſolidity of the probation to moſt of Proteſtant Divines, is plain emptineſſe. 2. That the Magiſtrate took advice of Divines and learned men skilled in the Law, is not like the firſt pattern of Moſes, David, Solomon, who asMoſes, David, Solomon, appointed to the Prieſts nothing in Gods worſhip as Kings. Magiſtrates (ſaith Eraſtus) did rule all in the Church, gave the Law to Aaron his ſons, directed and commanded the Prophets from the Lord, as neareſt to him, what they ſhould do, what Laws they ſhould teach the people: Shew us one precept, practiſe, or promiſe in the word, where Moſes, David, Solomon asked Counſell at Aaron, the Prieſts, Gad, Nathan, or the Prophets; ſaying, O ſons of Aaron, O Prophets adviſe us Magiſtrates, what Laws we ſhould command you, touching your office, your holy garments, your waſhing, your beaſts clean and unclean, your l…per, your putting men out of the Camp, touching the forme, dimenſions, ſtructure, materials of the Arke, Tabernacle, Temple, &c. that we may know what to command you from the Lord; for we are nearer to the Lord, and have a more eminent place, as Church-Officers, then you who are but our Vicars, Deputies, and ſervants to be directed by us.
Now 1. Moſes received all Laws immediatly from God, and never conſulted with any man, either Aaron, Prieſt, or Prophet; David and Solomon had the forme of the Temple, given to them by the Lord in writing, and adviſed with none at all; & therefore received from God, and delivered to the Church, what they received of the Lord.
2. What warrant the Magiſtrates ſhould adviſe with Miniſters; what they ſhould command-Miniſters, to preach and do in their Miniſtery, if by vertue of their Office they command Miniſters.
3. So like as Chriſt referreth men to the Civill ſword on their bodies to gain their ſouls, which is the ſcope of Chriſt, Matth. 18.